Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

IP address ranges of ISPs that have direct or indirect association with Phorm are here. Important to understand when you block users, that you exercise your right to refuse access because you believe their ISP may be using Phorm, not that you think the visitor is opted in to Phorm.

With respect to the hostnames, this image (code available here) might be interesting;

http://www.dephormation.org.uk:8080/...est/images.php

PS, there are loads of other ideas published on the site... Javascript tripwire is an easy one.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i much prefer the new Peter Jones BT Business Gremlins ad one with all those Phorm advertisers and other 3rd partys playing the part of the gremlin's let into the building by the BT/phorm executive.

Peter Jones BT Business Gremlins ad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA1iQm413No

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Here in south-west London on Virgin Media cable I get to 66.249.93.104 in just 12 hops. I think the 30 or so Wildie is seeing need an explanation even if Phorm isn't involved in any way. Maybe this is one for Dephormation?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Maybe a good link for people to visit who may want to get some understanding of the concept of deep packet inspection. The video demonstrates in an advert the latent power a potential 'abuser' (my words) has available when access is allowed by ISP's without legal warrants to outsiders (and also insiders).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Kent says:
"The system is designed to ignore any data that might be personal such as names or long numbers
which might be telephone numbers or postcodes,"

Unfortunately he seems to be thinking about US Zip codes, he has no idea about the format of a UK postcodes.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

which is strange considering he also says he grew up in the UK

BTW that long unbroken text is making the browser scroll off to the right of my screen again, can you edit it and put a carrage return in half way across please?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Does seem to be a lot going on in hops 3-8?
Suspicious?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Not necessarily, here's tracert I did on BT 18 months ago, there always seems to be a load of hopping about on their network.

Tracing route to core2-pos1-4.ealing.ukcore.bt.net [194.74.65.225]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms ag241 [192.168.1.1]
2 17 ms 28 ms 17 ms esr7.sheffield3.broadband.bt.net
[217.47.73.146]
3 19 ms 56 ms 17 ms 217.47.73.13
4 19 ms 28 ms 17 ms 217.41.176.17
5 19 ms 17 ms 20 ms 217.41.176.130
6 18 ms 17 ms 18 ms 217.41.176.34
7 18 ms 17 ms 17 ms 217.32.96.177
8 18 ms 17 ms 18 ms core2-pos4-2.sheffield.ukcore.bt.net
[217.32.171.169]
9 20 ms 20 ms 19 ms core2-pos5-0.manchester.ukcore.bt.net
[194.74.16.201]
10 25 ms 25 ms 25 ms core2-pos1-4.ealing.ukcore.bt.net
[194.74.65.225]

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I remember being gobsmacked when I first put my postcode, name of my road and surname into pcguard privacy blocker. I couldn't believe how many sites were grabbing my details.

On a slightly off topic note, I've just bought one of those asus eee thingys. I like it a lot! Knowing there is a canny lot of bods posting on here, could anyone kindly point me towards some Linux Anti-virus/anti-spyware/firewall software? Ideally with a bit of a free trial so I can see if it grinds to a halt before I buy?
</end off topic>

Eventually I intend to buy 4 or 5 or 6 of them (not sure how many yet) and set up an internet advertising company and get really rich.

---------- Post added at 00:23 ---------- Previous post was at 00:21 ----------

Deported or transported?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So that would be sometime 2006/2007 would it be around the time of the illegal trials?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi. You don't really need anti-virus software for Linux, except insofar as to not be a passive carrier of Windows viruses. I wouldn't bother.

For an easy to use Firewall configurator, check out: 'Firestarter'.

You might want to install 'chkrootkit' and 'rkhunter', which are rootkit hunters. Though I've never been infected with a rootkit in six years of using Linux.

---------- Post added at 00:47 ---------- Previous post was at 00:45 ----------

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Your Xandros linux will include IPTables, linux built in firewall, there are a variety of gui front ends available including one that comes with Xandros. ClamAV is a free and widely used linux AV, if a bit slow. Kaspersky is probably the best linux AV if you want to pay. IMHO. ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

interesting, i wonder if the Uk might see some of this action ;)

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...cs-advertising
"
Watchdog canes AOL execs over advertising fraud

Bigged up revenue by a billion bucks

By Stewart Meagher: Tuesday, 20 May 2008, 11:09 AM

The SEC alleges that between 2000 and 2002 John Michael Kelly, Steven Rindner, Joseph Ripp and Mark Wovsaniker oversaw and executed fraudulent round-trip transactions in which AOL effectively funded its own advertising revenue by giving purchasers the money to buy online advertising that they did not want or need.

Online advertising revenue was a key measure by which analysts and investors evaluated the company.

The defendants made or substantially contributed to statements to investors that included the company's fraudulent financial results.

Kelly and Wovsaniker, both certified public accountants, are also charged with misleading the company's external auditor about the fraudulent transactions.
..."

Re: BT Phorm website opt-out problem
 

I was just thinking of how BT is going to try and not fall foul of the RIPA act. They need permission from both the person who is browsing and the website owner to intercept communications.

They will claim that website permission is implied, even when it isn't. Put that aside for a second. They claim that a website can stop their data being pimped by sending an email to BT (or Phorm?) with the URL of their website and it will be added as a website to ignore.

My question is this: How are they going to authenticate who the senders are of the emails which they receive? Couldn't I just send an email to BT on behalf of, say, news.bbc.co.uk or any other website and demand to be opted out? How are they going to confirm my identity? If they need contact information, what if I want to be opted out, but I don't want to reveal that I am the owner of a website?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No I don't think the trials were on then, looking back I remember well the period of the second illegal trials of June/July 2007 because of all the complaints of slow browsing. I moaned so much that some sidekick of Ben Verwaayen's phoned me with a load of platitudes, but with very little action. So shortly after that I decided to leave BT.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

@phormwatch @vicz

Thankee muchly! About the last time I had anything to do with linu/uni/x was with Oracle and Forms 3. Linux then came on 2 x 1.44Mb floppies and Oracle at work run on a box with about the same spec as my little eee!

As far as I know, Kent was still filling his daipers. (Not nappies, because he is certainly not one of us!)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Still off topic. I have a couple of EEEPCs. I run linux on all my machines. As phormwatch notes, you don't need AV on linux and linux isn't subject to the malware epidemic Windows suffers from. A firewall is commonsense for all systems. For all the information you need about anything on these it's worth checking the eeeuser site. There's a large community of interested users. http://forum.eeeuser.com/index.php PM me if you'd like more info.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Many thanks for this ilago. I found the wiki part of that site and I now have a proper desktop!

My thanks to you all for your kind replies. With the eeeuser.com site I can now forge ahead.:)

I don't want to take this thread off topic (it's too important) so with regards to the eee, i'll see you over on eeeuser.com. (but i'll lurk a bit first;))

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Your welcome. BTW some of us still like playing with small linux see http://www.zonko.net (shameless plug)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Criticism for 'UK database' plan

I know Dephormation Pete and some others mention some pages back that they felt this was a side issue, but reading some of the comments by people in this article, and considering that we are talking about privacy and the legallity of what Phorm and our ISPs are up to regarding mass grabs of our date, I think this is now relevant...

... especially when you see comments like the last one in the article.

So, Gus, presumably, the idea that ISPs need to collect data and send it en masse to private companies to feed us unwanted advertising is also, without doubt, illegal. JMHO

Should make the PIA from 80/20 interesting reading.

OB

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

AV for Linux try ClamAV. There are others too.

You do really want AV even on Linux. It is a less popular target but it's still a target and what if your Linux gets used as some form of vector to get to Windows boxes.

One issue is that some consumer Linux's are not as locked down as they could be. They are using Linux as a cheap platform that will be less resource intensive than XP or Vista. They are not primarily being used for their security.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

just received a letter from my mp, he has signed the EDM 1311 on my request so it says.

thought i was in trouble letter direct from the commons.:)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just received a letter from Tesco's who said they will bear my comments in mind at their next review meeting.

I wrote to them as a concerned ecommerce web developer and sugested that Phorm had the potential of informing Sainsbury's of their customers habits.

It would be good to get some of the big retailers on our side I think.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I see that Alexander now has "News item A" on google finance.

http://finance.google.com/finance?q=LON:PHRM

Nice one.

(looks like somone just dumped £200K of stock :))

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:LOL: should send the same to all large store saying is could do that for their competitors..

On another note all need to help on yet another forum this time it is one watched by BT since I often send links to threads for their attention.

Please read this first then there is a thread that needs some feed back ASAP to warn more to avoid.

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/articles/bt08/index.shtml

Lets take the battle to the public.

The last buy on phorm might lose more than his shirt looking at what he bought or it is insider buying to pump up phorm again.. But to pay £207,620 on shares in a phirm(sorry firm :P) as dodgy as phorm makes you wonder.

While on the war path is Brown going a step too far would you trust this government to handle personal data.. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05...base_proposed/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:notopic:
:notopic:
In my experience the most common attack on a linux box is looking for week logins to ssh. If you have sshd exposed to the internet on its standard port you will get a new attack every day or two. There are various ways to stop this such as denyhosts, setting to a non standard port, disallowing password authentication or just sitting behind a NAT router/firewall.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

that was a BUY not a SELL transation, see http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/deta...&timeframe=480

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Totally agree, Florence. :)

I posted this yesterday when it appeared on the BBC website and some people said they felt it wasn't relevant, (much to my annoyance). :(

I've done a follow up today: http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post6920.html

Some interesting comments made by Privacy International.

OB

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Closer to bid than asking price.

http://www.lse.co.uk/ShareTrades.asp...re=phorm_reg_s

I see iii has a different bid price.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Those share prices seem strange it shows the large £207 as a sell yet on ill it is showns as a buy.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Would this mean someone is manipulating phorm stock if one shows as a sell and another as a buy....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

the way iii works is it it's above the mid point price it is classifide a buy, below a sell, it seems to get it right most of the time but sometimes a seller gets a good price and other times buyers can get a cheap deal

---------- Post added at 12:52 ---------- Previous post was at 12:47 ----------


i have been sat over on iii for a month or so, and there seems to be several ways and reason people buy and sell stocks , you have the rampers trying to talk up the stock to get a quick return on there investment, the shorters who use an intersting process to make money as the share price falls so they try to push the price down then you also have the long term investor who take no notice of the short term ups and down but look at long term moving average prices.

as a techie i have found it an interesting time while throwing the odd spanner in the forum as well, as do several others from here

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

About to go into the final exam of my degree....wish me luck. Ironically it is on Decision Support Systems (which could be used to describe a behavioural advertising model).

Just two papers left to hand in after today, one for my final year group project and one on the Patriot Act.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good luck Alexander we all are wishing you to pass

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good Luck Alexander - break a leg

:)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I had noticed you on their bluecar a few times I have had a good laugh but avoided joining them..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

KILL THE HERETIC !

Seriously though, good luck :D

PS Forgot to mention that I switched to Zen last night - totally pain-free process and I'm now 100% guaranteed Phorm free ! Also got a little boost in speeds too...which is nice :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i do try to keep it relevant on there and not just rant because they then ignore you, the old slowly slowly catchee monkey scenario

you have to register then wait two days before you can post, but lately even a few investors seem to be questioning the viability of phorms business model and projected incomes. brettypoos is the only one who seems to defend phorm but if you read his replies he does it to bait the ranters and techies and for a bit of fun

but i just keep chipping away

i also post on theregister but as myself "peter white" not to worried about privacy as many people called that in the uk

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Zen is a good company have friends in the techies there one in particular on MSN :P nice guy will go that extra mile.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BT seem to have been a bit flustered by the last article about them and PHORM in "MICRO MART" and asked for some retractions

but the also offered to answer any questions "micro mart" puts to them about it and "micro mart" have asked for ideas on what to ask to be mailed to editorial@micromart.co.uk

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The pre-transfer email was 100% spot on, exactly the kind of thing I would write to help someone reconfig their equipment, good mix of noddy instructions and full tech details if required - always a good sign.

The transfer across was something that reminded me that BT Wholesale will have a big part to play in this little saga, as my VCI etc all stayed the same, just my username and password changed really. DHCP then gave me a Zen IP, so the connection up to the Radius server must be the same whoever you are with (assuming you aren't unbundled).

I believe this is how some people were suggesting that BT could handle the opt-in (by using different radius profiles) but would obviously encounter some obstacles as BT Wholesale have to treat BT Retail as a customer just like everyone else (Zen for example).

However, having worked on BT's spiders-nest of a network I can say that they all run equipment on the same infrastructure at some point, so splitting them apart is more of a business level excercise than a network level one.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Have anyone any views on this posted on ISPreview http://www.ispreview.co.uk/articles/bt08/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"...some real customer benefits, including better protection against phishing. Consumer research we have done suggests to us that many people would like to see relevant advertising...."

Same old stick in the mud line. Phishing offers no benefit to those who use a browser with it in - I have enabled the option in Opera and it works well, no slow down, no need for the Phorm version....

All advertising is of course irrelevant for me as I never look at them, have long been filtering them where I can. What I remain puzzled at though is how they can possibly profile your interests from a simple word search of sites you visit. Does me visiting regularly the Telegraph home page mean I have an interest in politics, no and I simply don't read those bits... Most of my browsing is to technical sites with words that Phorm probably doesn't even understand....

But I suppose that is the official word he has to say regardless of what he personally thinks.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Typical spin-doctoring. Google don't take a copy of every web page you visit, and if you used a different search engine they wouldn't see it at all.

Amazon can target advertising based on their customers' buying patterns, which is data they legally hold, not bought from some shonky outfit.

What consumer research? Who's legal advice? What PIA? What video?

Perhaps they're trying to bore us to death. They obviously have no idea how tenacious we are and how difficult it is to bore a techy :P

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

These idiots make my blood boil.

Google track the sites webmasters have given their permission for.
Amazon only do this for account holders with permission and it can be turned off in your preferences if you don't want it.

Neither of these is an argument for BT/Webwise/Phorm being able to do it.

OB

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I will quote this on the site for you oldbear to let other see..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.capmarkets.com/9344/PHRM_....pdf?sfgdata=4

Not sure if this has been posted before, but I've had to stop reading it to let my blood temperature drop a little. There are some real doozer comments in this 'analysis'.

My personal favourite combination is ..

combined with
Mind you, the disclaimer on page 31 does say it is a marketting document :/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good Luck Alex, You deserve it!!

davethejag

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yet another one obviously being paid to make phorm/webwise look good selective copy and paste new words for those wishing to protect privacy and yet again shows the same venum at Alexander perhaps due to the fact Alexander is too well informed for Kent's liking and he can see Alexander as the opositions best chance to show webwise/phorm for what it is server side rootkit loggind everything from ip to postcode where we go what we do even able to say when we are in or out at out postcode... Phorm can be scripted to do all this it just takes a change in the get script and phorm van harvest what ever it wants from our PCs and we cant tell since it is server set in the ISP network... Anywhere esle we coudl flag up activity from unknown IPs but within the network we are trapped to the whims of the russian scripters and kents twisted mind.

Oh while I remember adverts I block all but amazon, aria, ebuyer, and other wesites I have bought from at my request i get these. I do not request targeted adverts from phorm or my ISP network..

Have a nice day.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

yep, what little change would be required to start scanning port 25 (smtp mail) and port 110 (pop3 mail) but then how would it cope with all the adverts spammed with snake oil cures for erectile dysfunction and keeping the wife / girlfriend / mistress happy all night (sorry not PC unless i added boyfriend as well)

this is how it could creap a few months after launch

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The thing they don't seem to grasp is that Google creates a virtuous circle of benefit to the web site owner and benefit to the customer. Google does this at huge cost in terms of hardware investment, and indexing algorithm design.

Phorm are pure parasites looking for a quick buck. Webwise steals content from web site owners to sell ads for competitors. Webwise steals profile information from ISP customers without any benefit returned.

And relying on the "Google could do something unpleasant, so why can't we" argument doesn't really help their cause.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wish I hadn't given up drinking because I would be getting totally **** faced about now if I still drunk hehehe.

Final exam is OVER!!!!!!!!

I think it went well but considering I went into the exam almost completely blind (I totally neglected the module due to all this Phorm stuff, missed most of the lectures and didn't read any of the lecture notes, case studies or other material until last night) I have no real idea. I would be surprised if I got less than a 2:1 for the exam and possibly even a 1st so overall I am happy with how it went.

Writing 9 pages by hand in 90 minutes when the only time I use a pen is once a year for exams, is a bit of a killer though. Temp RSI is not very pleasant.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i assume that as they would see the request go out to a ssl site and see the cert come back they could even read ssl protect web traffic

now that is scary.

the only secure comms safe would then be if you hold a certificate locally issued by the remote end so all traffic (even the link setup) is encrypted, OR MOVE ISP

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Congratulations Alexander!

How about a joint to celebrate?



I'll get me coat...

:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I moved ISP :) now I get a phorm phree service and much faster than my old cable connection and that is worrying...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No Comment ;)

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i am trying but still have 9 months of a 18 month contract to go, so hoping BT will try and force a change of T's and C's on me so i can get out early.

how do you like my blue car , just added it , same model and colour as my real one, 1 year old and 35,000 miles

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

very nice now they know what you drive around in they can take over your thought with sublime messages to try and make you conphorm :LOL:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just browsing in my little campaign to the big retailers and I found this on the Tesco site.

http://www.tesco.com/termsandconditi...tm#Limitations

It would seem that Phorm would fall foul of this.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Not one single mention of copyright in that document... even goes as far as saying...

"For the first time, the entire browsing behaviour of a consumer across the entire Internet can be profiled – and not just within the limited confines of ad networks."

To paraphrase, "we steal the whole internet, not just within the limited confines of the content we pay for, or can demonstrate consent to exploit".

If this garbage is ever switched on... and privacy is ignored by the ICO, RIPA is ignored by the Home Office, and Computer Misuse doesn't trouble the Police...

Copyright claims will toast ISPs like a blowtorch on a box of petrol soaked fire lighters.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It all boils down to selective use of information which isnt always best since this selective use can make it impossible for customers to give inphormed consent due to the lack of information to begin with.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"Questions raised about the security of EV-SSL

Sintonen demonstrated how the use of cross-site scripting could be used to prompt users for their login credentials and then send the credentials to an unauthorised server. Sintonen also injected code that caused a pop-up window to appear on the page and said the flaw could be used to steal user cookies."

http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/index.cfm?newsid=13109&

Why steal cookies,seeing as the phorm pr has stated that nothing can be gained from them ?:o:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It has already been posted that a yahoo cookie has the persons postcode in it. There is plenty in the cookie which phnorm wish to make those unaware think it is nothing but your cookie can fingerprint you down to town street and small number of houses...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There might be more mileage in this. A bit of Corporate muscle in the crusade might provide oomph. How about boycotting the goods or services of a selected big Company and tell them the reason is Phorm? That could put the cat amongst the pigeons. When the going gets tough, the tough will get going. After all, Amazon and the Guardian got the willies up when a backlash looked like hitting them where it hurts i.e. in the wallet. :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

what exactly are they saying, and what is being asked to be retracted ?...

for those that havent got the mag we cant know what has already been covered and offer other points to put to them.

it seems Micro Mart is very light on the Phorm subject and they dont seem to even know about its Deep Packet Inspection potential.
http://forum.micromart.co.uk/Search1...=1&SortOrder=1

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I thought that ebay was the same. All the site pages, sellers and buyers details, details of what you are selling/buying, your personal information and addresses pages in 'My eBay' are in plain html.
Only the login page and pages to change bank info are secure.

I posted a thread in the community forums about phorm and the possible implications of the whole site being phormed.
After going back to see how the discussion is progressing it appears to have been deleted as I can find no trace of it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hello all :)

I've been a lurker around these forums for some time now & thought I'd pop by & say hi & thank you to all involved in the debate.

the posts in this thread are a real good read & very informitive.

its nice to read whats REALY going on with all this phorm crap & get the REAL in's & outs on what this is going to mean to us as customers as well as webmasters rather than all the spin & crap that k^nt & all the marketing types provide.

I'd like to thank Alex & pete for their work & also R Jones for keeping the presure on BT & keeping the thread on the beta forums alive.:)

its brilliant to be able to read a free & open forum thats not edited constantly (read the bt beta forums (server problems permitted) its full of MESSAGE Edited by blah blah blah)

Thanks all

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

tracert from a zen connection, a lot less pinging round before making out onto the net


Tracing route to www.l.google.com [64.233.183.99]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 2 ms 1 ms 1 ms 192.168.1.1
2 36 ms 37 ms 36 ms gay-dsl1.wh.zen.net.uk [62.3.83.20]
3 36 ms 35 ms 36 ms erazmus-ae-0-200.wh.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.201]
4 44 ms 42 ms 46 ms leibniz-so-0-1-0-0.te.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.45]
5 44 ms 42 ms 44 ms 195.66.224.125
6 42 ms 50 ms 42 ms 209.85.252.42
7 54 ms 53 ms 53 ms 216.239.43.123
8 54 ms 53 ms 54 ms 72.14.233.79
9 64 ms 57 ms 53 ms 209.85.249.133
10 54 ms 53 ms 53 ms nf-in-f99.google.com [64.233.183.99]

Trace complete.

got one zen connection over the mother in laws, just got to get out of my BT contract at home the it will "phorm free, as free as the wind blows" (sung to the theme from born free movie)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Cant understand why BT customers have so many hops to get to google it is almost as if BT don't want them to arrive at google or they don't know how to do a fast network

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Geographic location?

How do you get www.l.google.com to resolve as any IP other than 216.239.59.103? :confused:

Anyway...

I'm on ADSL24 (Entanet Reseller)

Tracing route to nf-in-f99.google.com [64.233.183.99]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms mygateway.ar7 [192.168.1.1]
2 32 ms 32 ms 32 ms ironwood.dsl.enta.net [87.127.229.6]
3 32 ms 32 ms 33 ms vlan4002.telehouse-east.dsl.enta.net [87.127.229.1]
4 31 ms 32 ms 31 ms te5-2.telehouse-east.core.enta.net [62.249.192.121]
5 32 ms 31 ms 32 ms te4-3.global-switch.core.enta.net [87.127.236.82]
6 32 ms 32 ms 32 ms te4-3.telehouse-north.core.enta.net [87.127.236.41]
7 32 ms 30 ms 31 ms 72.14.198.46
8 31 ms 31 ms 32 ms 209.85.252.42
9 51 ms 51 ms 52 ms 216.239.43.123
10 52 ms 53 ms 52 ms 72.14.233.77
11 66 ms 63 ms 62 ms 216.239.43.34
12 56 ms 51 ms 50 ms nf-in-f99.google.com [64.233.183.99]

Trace complete.

Norfolk - no not the one in Virginia...



:)


EDIT: Just looked a few pages back at your trace Florence - virtually the same as mine (on Entanet)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

X-posted from Badphorm

Hello all,

pleased to announce a new prerelease version of Dephormation is available to download.

It includes a significant new feature, developed by Narcosis, that records evidence of redirects by Phorm (or Nebuad) to a log file. This data could be used to support Fraud/Computer Misuse/RIPA complaints, or simply for technical analysis of DPI systems like Phorm and Nebuad. (I've checked every contributed line of code, and found only pure genius).

I've tested this on Windows XP/FF2, and Linux/FF1.5. Narcosis has tried it on a Mac.

http://www.dephormation.org.uk/prere...phormation.xpi
(nb; right click, save as, and drag into Firefox to install).

Please feel free to give it a try (and revert back to the current public v1.6 if you encounter problems).

Please note, with logging enabled, there is a trivial but discernable performance hit. The code probably needs some file handling optimisation. I'd suggest keeping the feature off, unless you suspect you are being redirected and want to capture a log.

On Windows, the log file is best viewed in Wordpad, not Notepad (due to carriage return/line feed layout issues).

PS... forgot to mention, the options can be accessed from the new Tools/Dephormation... menu item.

regards
Pete

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7412438.stm

kent to isp's
"Hang on, lads; I've got a great idea"



thank Pete, giving it a go to create 'before' logs to compare
seems to be working ok

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Following on from the BBC blog yeserday :-

http://www.8020thinking.com/news/2-l...n-consent.html

Announced today, but dated 2 months ago? Berlin appears to be a nation state.

PhormUKPRteam appears to be running the web site, no one else could mess it up so much. £££££Â £Â£Â£Â£Â£Â£à ƒâ€šÃ‚£Ã‚£Â£Â£Â£Âà ‚£Ã‚£Â£Â£Â£Â£Ã ‚£Â£Â£Â£Â£Â £Ã‚£Â£Â£Â£Â£Ã⠀šÃ‚£Ã‚£Â£Â£Â£Â £Ãƒâ€šÃ‚£Ã‚£Â£Â£Â£ÆšÃ‚£Ã‚£Â£

Your expectations have been managed in this time of tectonic shifts. Trade war with the US looms. (Not a quote from the link above, but paraphrasing a discredited privacy advocate. You don't have to search very far for the source)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This working group is a very good thing, I don't understand why people are getting bent out of shape over it. I knew about it some time ago but I was asked to keep it quiet as they wanted to announce it at the launch party on Tuesday.

What 80/20 Thinking will be doing is working with the entire industry, regulators and information commissioners to build a framework which will allow the industry to make a very big shift from opt-out to opt-in. The result of Article 29 means that this has to be done and Informed Consent is now mandatory across Europe. This -includes- Phorm, Google, MS, Yahoo, BT, AOL and every other big player in the industry.

This is a -good- thing so please lets not ruin it with baseless attacks?

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

do we know who else is on the working group, because 80/20 obviously have possible conflict of interest due to phorm being a client and phorm will want the least informed options enshrined in law not the best for the public, do any others on the working group have similar possible conflicts of interest issues

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It would be better if 80/20 finished the pia and all dealings with phorm then do the working group for the other, or this could be looked upon as another phorm stunt by many people.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm one of those people.

You can't take money from people who have a vested interest in the outcome of an EU law, and pretend you're acting independently.

80/20 should NOT be managing that working party. And if they're contributing, they should declare a conflict of interest.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

just a thought ....

from 80/20s privacy policy

http://www.8020thinking.com/ethics.html#3

Privacy Policy

80/20 Thinking Ltd believes that individuals have the right to control the use of their personal information, and that your privacy must be respected. We strictly limit the processing of your personal information, and work only with other organizations who do the same.
Personal information that you provide to 80/20 Thinking Ltd will be used only for the service you have requested.
80/20 Thinking Ltd does not sell, rent or lease personal data. We do not purchase such data from other sources.

Any subpoena or attempts by government agencies or private sector organizations to gain access to any information that you give us will be vigorously challenged.

"
Emphasis and colour are mine...
Does this mean that phorm cant profile content provided to 80/20 via say this page
http://www.8020thinking.com/contact.html
which would almost definitely would include private and personal comms.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Phorm/Webwise/121Media claim that they don't collect information from forms. BT have also said this about BT Webwise.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Except search engine forms.

I'm reminded of the marriage scene in Flash Gordon, where Emperor Ming marries Dale.

Zogi, the High Priest: Do you, Ming the Merciless, Ruler of the Universe, take this web user to be your valued customer of the hour?
The Emperor Ming: Of the hour, yes.
Zogi, the High Priest: Do you promise to use her as you will?
The Emperor Ming: Certainly!
Zogi, the High Priest: Not to harvest data from her web forms and search requests?
[Ming glares at Zogi]
Zogi, the High Priest: Uh, until such time as you see commercial value in doing so.
The Emperor Ming: I do.
Trusted Customer: Did I opt in to this?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Quotes from BT Webwise FAQ on Beta forums

I'm interested in this because it was a question I kept pestering BT with and eventually it turned up in the FAQ - if they didn't get info from forms how did they get the info from a google search box?

Here's how it turned out in the published BT Webwise FAQ (version on Beta forums, posted 2/4/08, and wrongly dated as revised 2/4/07)

33. Can the service access private e-mails, webmails and other personal identifying information I enter into web forms?

BT Webwise does not scan webmail pages. Secure pages like banking websites, and web forms such as online registration or sign-up forms are also not scanned. No personal information, often contained in form fields, is therefore ever used by the system.

When analysing in-page keywords, only repeated information is registered. The top-10 most frequent keywords are considered, having first ignored numbers, email addresses, names. Secondly this 'data digest' is only used instantaneously to match against advertiser channels and is then deleted immediately and permanently. Raw data is not stored and therefore cannot be lost. The system only retains the advertiser categories that were matched against a random number, which by definition cannot include your data.

34. If I type a postal address into a form, is that data passed on by BT to Phorm or one of their partners?

No. Not only are online forms ignored completely, the system does not collect any personally- identifiable information, there is nothing to pass on to anybody. All processing analysis is done instantaneously and on BT's controlled equipment

35. snipped

36. If Phorm/Webwise doesn't capture form data, how does it collect search engine queries?

All search keywords become part of the request your browser sends to the search engine. Webwise looks at the http request to understand what search keywords were used.

But I enjoyed the bit about Ming the merciless.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oh so this is not personally identifiable?

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en...e+Search&meta=

My name is not in the url request at all....oh hang on it is...

Furthermore, as was proved with the AOL search data, people can be identified from the things they search for even if they don't enter any personal information in their search terms.

So basically more BT BS

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Interesting comment, Alex. Asked to keep it quiet by who?

Since when were Phorm a 'big player'?

I agree with the others who say that having both PI and 80/20 Thinking involved in any enquiry/working group suggests a huge conflict of interest.

OB

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A huge conflict of interest!
Unfortunately it's business and, it would seem, they are only in it for the money.
PI are non-profit 80/20 are not.

I'm not saying 80/20 aren't doing a good job, but surely they can't be on both sides of the fence.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That is irrelevant. If someone tells me something in confidence it stays between myself and them. There is nothing nefarious about asking someone not to leak information which is due to be publicly announced at an event in the future.

If people felt they couldn't trust me to discuss things "off the record" then I wouldn't have been able to get half of the information I have been given over the past couple of months.

The news about the International Working Group was mentioned during casual conversation not an official email/interview etc. If you were having a conversation with me and said something you wanted to keep between ourselves and I suddenly posted it all over the web, how would you feel?

It is no different to me having advanced notice of the Investors Chronicle article or the upcoming Economist article.

Now I have said this before, I won't respond to attacks against 80/20; my battle is with Phorm and anyone else who wants to use similar technology which contravenes our rights under law, not Simon Davies or anyone else at 80/20 Thinking. So I will say no more on this matter and respectfully request we get back to the matter at hand - Phorm.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A more truthful answer would have said;

We gather data from forms which use http get requests, but ignore http posts. The decision is completely arbitrary, but allows us to claim the right to profile your search requests. Typically, this distinction will not be obvious to you (if at all) as a consumer until after you have pressed the submit button on a form. At which point it will be too late to change your mind.

How on earth are these pillocks still in business. Regulators need to pull the plug on this nonsense.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

But Alex - your name is in that search string because you (or anyone else searching for "Hanff Phorm" put it there.) I can't quite see how it leads to an identification of the person making making the search, or the fact that a personal name got put in a search box leads to an argument against Phorm. (Although of course your google profile now includes an interest in Phorm matched against your Google cookie unless you delete the cookie and change your IP address)

Or have I misunderstood what you said?

I completely agree with you that it is a fairly trivial matter for anyone with a website to link the Phorm UID of a Webwise opted-in visitor, with their actual logged in website identity and the personal data that the website already holds on them.

I also agree that the "man in the middle" technology that Phorm are installing stinks and makes possible a whole host of nasty things if Phorm/Webwise are prepared to break the law and lie to us , and just allow mission creep to the extent of their own patent documents - which of course they are,

- but I don't agree that your example above about the google search string is a good way of making the point. Maybe I'm being picky!

I also agree that neither Phorm nor BT have actually come up with a decent answer to the lousy security of the Phorm UID. Dr Clayton has not had an answer to his discussion of the security weaknesses of the model.

I also agree that BT produce a lot of BS - that's why I am always happy to quote their statements, because they so often turn out to be wrong, either through incompetence or dishonesty.

Of course you might now get targeted with adverts for Hanff related merchandise?? (for the book 84 Charing Cross Rd by Helene Hanff, who is still above you on the google hits for "Hanff" - wonder how long she can hold out?)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Whilst the processing analysis is done on the channel server within the ISP, I was of the impression that the ISP did not have access to it nor do they have detail on how it works.

How can it be claimed to be BT controlled?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK let me clarify a little. Say for example you are searching on Google for a family member who shares the same surname, or you are searching for information about yourself; those search terms will be profiled based on the BT explanation posted. So clearly stating that no identifiable information is taken from search forms is incorrect. That was my only point, just a simple example of how those search terms can actually contain personal information.

My other point was that even if you never use anything which might be considered as personal information, you can still be identified from your searches as happened with one elderly woman in the US who was identified and tracked to her home address as a result of her anonymised search data being leaked by AOL.

So my post was more about the inaccuracies of BT's FAQ as opposed to anything ground breaking or new.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I trust what you're saying on this Alexander but it's difficult to trust companies who are commisioned by Phorm to give appraisals particularly if their findings seemingly don't get to be made public. Particularly when we were told on this forum that it would be a warts and all affair and Phorm were aware of this also and had a publish and be damned attitude...

More than once with 80/20 Thinking I've felt like I've been fed verbal rohipnol

- it sure feels like you've been shafted but you're never quite sure enough to start shouting about it!!

:(

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Okay I've got you now. A general point that the Phorm/Webwise collection/profiling that is going on, must include a lot of personally identifiable information (including google search items in Get requests- they can't prevent it (just as the BTYahoo cookies include our post-codes, and they are shorter than US zip codes but Kent forgot that) - and that all that information DOES end up in the profiling machinery under a Phorm UID, even if Kent tells us it doesn't. And if he feels like it, he can do what he likes with it once he's got it (or some "associates" have obtained it by whatever means they choose, CD's in the post, laptop in a taxi, server maintenance crew etc. "taking a backup", essential BT Webwise network "maintenance" on BT servers - sorry correct that - FASTHOSTS servers etc etc).

I can understand that and agree.

And as for the BT FAQ being inaccurate - I took that for granted anyway. I'm a long time connoisseur of BT customer informationl. The Webwise stuff is up to their usual low standard.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The PIA isn't finished yet, I spoke to Simon yesterday on the phone and he said there is about 3 days work left to do on it but until he can schedule those 3 days to do it then obviously it is going to be delayed. I could go on and tell you all about the things he has been doing for the past couple of weeks but that would be a breach of confidence. I would hope people trust me enough to accept that when I say Simon has been occupied by other very important issues, that I am not telling lies.

I keep in regular telephone communications with Simon to keep a flow of information running, but we also talk about a lot of stuff that is nothing to do with Phorm (which is understandable given his work in privacy advocacy and my interest in the same area) and I can't possibly be expected to run around the web shouting all that information for anyone to hear. I wouldn't do it with any of you guys, or any of my other friends and I am not about do it with anyone else.

Yes I am as frustrated as you guys are that the PIA hasn't been released yet and that the videos have not been released but I also make an effort to find out why and get updates.

As soon as I get notice that the PIA is completed I will post that information here immediately.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

MPO is this working party shouldn't be started using 80/20 thinking until the published PIA is realsed and phorm an ex customer.. Until then it is like putting the leader of the armed forces in charge of parliment and not saying it is a military coo...

Nothing against Simon but surely he can see the conflict of interest this will bring if Phorm is still a paying customer and the doubt it will bring on the outcome of this working party....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The PIA isn't finished yet as there are about 3 days work left to do on it.
But what of the video? Is it's release delayed because the PIA isn't finished?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The video is nothing to do with 80/20 Thinking, they were told by Phorm that the video would be released unedited to the public (before the event) and therefore added the info the event notice (granted they didn't clarify that Phorm were responsible for the video but I don't believe that was to try and hide the fact, merely a mistake).

Phorm seem to have chosen to not release the video now (although nothing official has come from Phorm regarding this either to myself, any of you guys or Simon) but there is nothing 80/20 can do to change that, it is not something within their control.

Simon apologised for the confusion about the video here in person, there isn't much more he can do in that regard.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 13:13 ---------- Previous post was at 13:07 ----------

I think you are mis-understanding what a working group is. 80/20 Thinking are leading the group, bringing people together from industry, regulators and others to build a framework. But they are not in "control", they don't decide the policy they are more like mediators but mediators who have experience of the law and issues being discussed.

Or at least that is my understanding of it, I could be wrong but 80/20 will be an objective party in the group as opposed to subjective (the industry would be subjective as they are debating how it effects them as opposed to looking at the issue from a neutral point).

The above is my personal opinion and interpretation though, I haven't discussed the issue at length with Simon, just comments in conversation.

If Simon manages to visit us again on cableforum people could ask him and I am sure he will be more than happy to respond.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 13:16 ---------- Previous post was at 13:13 ----------

On a more uplifting note, Phorm shares down almost 7% so far today and heading back to where they were before the unusual boost the other week.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sorry Alex, I understand that.
I wasn't very clear with my post. I meant that perhaps Phorm were delaying the release of the video until the PIA is finished.

Presumably if the video reflects the content of the written PIA, (or the other way around) then the video would be released.
If it doesn't.... well....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I really don't have an answer to that and wouldn't want to speculate. All I know is the video hasn't been released and that Simon has chased it up but has had no further information on it.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That should show Simon the type of person he is dealing with plus shows a valid reason for peoples distrust in what he says. Since he has proved he cannot be trusted to complete the tasks he says. Personally Simon should open his eyes and see Phorm managment for what they are.

One big issue of this is that 80/20 seem to see just the benefits without the full impact of the consiquencies. Bring people together some might be not as wise in the ways to handle someone like Kent. They might beleive every word Kent says which the Video proves you cannot trust his word.

That is the only good news I have read so far today.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Don't make the mistake of mixing up the working group projects with the PIA.

A working group would consist of diverse representatives - like a parliamentary committee would consist of labour, conservative, liberal democrats.

The PIA is a paid for assessment paid by Phorm.

The delay would surely be due to the draft copy 'not right' for Phorm and thus re-written until it is. He who pays the piper calls the tune...

Just as with the video: if the PIA does not paint Phorm in a good light then Phorm can choose not to release the PIA at all or delay it ad infinitum.

The PIA is not going to be independent and IMO it is tainted and can not be relied upon.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BT just looking to tell the same old lies in a new way. The fact is that whatever they say we have no way of knowing if it is true even if it is possible - no one is auditing this on our behalf. Similarly BT have no way of knowing what the phorm code is doing and are in no position to warrant its behaviour. In any case it is irrelevant, it is the interception that is illegal, makes no difference what is or is not done with the information.