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-   -   Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33702820)

Chrysalis 02-05-2016 15:58
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 35834519)
Gov should say unless they accept within a week. the 30% premium will be withdrawn and then they get what other public workers get.

Shameful greed from these doctors.

---------- Post added at 15:58 ---------- Previous post was at 15:48 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu (Post 35834916)
Sorry guys and girls on this forum. But l look at it this way.
Yesterday, and the day before l tooted my support to the Junior Drs on the picket line at west middx hospital, my local hospital.

I belong to the PCS Union, and WILL ALWAYS SUPPORT a Union strike, and never in my life cross a picket line.

But, l look at the bigger here.

Jeremy Hunt is trying to force a NEW contract onto the Drs, You canniot do that under employment law.
of course a company can, a previous company I worked for simply said take the new contract or lose your job.

TheDaddy 06-05-2016 15:09
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Interesting read, makes me wonder if there was an ulterior motive all along

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...ctors-contract

nomadking 06-05-2016 16:33
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35836060)
Interesting read, makes me wonder if there was an ulterior motive all along

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...ctors-contract
Try the MANY other reports from around the world that confirm the weekend effect.
Link to British Medical Journal article from Nov 1015
Quote:
What this study adds This study provides an evaluation of the “weekend effect” in obstetric care, covering a range of outcomes. The results would suggest approximately 770 perinatal deaths and 470 maternal infections per year above what might be expected if performance was consistent across women admitted, and babies born, on different days of the week.
Quote:
Previous studies, across a range of countries, have identified higher mortality in patients admitted on weekends (compared with weekdays) across a range of medical conditions—a phenomenon termed the “weekend effect.” This calls into question the idea that quality of care is equal irrespective of when someone presents at hospital. However, not all studies have identified an association between poor outcomes and out of hours periods.
Don't see why it should make any difference anyway

TheDaddy 06-05-2016 20:08
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35836077)
Try the MANY other reports from around the world that confirm the weekend effect.
Link to British Medical Journal article from Nov 1015
Don't see why it should make any difference anyway
If the many reports from around the world have used the same formula as the one jeremy hunt keeps banging on about to support his case then I'd rather not try them and yes it does make a difference if the very reason for implementing it is flawed, he's either incompetent or up to something, time will tell which.

nomadking 06-05-2016 22:14
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35836125)
If the many reports from around the world have used the same formula as the one jeremy hunt keeps banging on about to support his case then I'd rather not try them and yes it does make a difference if the very reason for implementing it is flawed, he's either incompetent or up to something, time will tell which.
As I said, regardless why should it make a difference to the strike? The reports, including the ones used by Jeremy Hunt are prepared by the MEDICAL PROFESSION.

I also pointed out that the day of giving birth is not usually chosen. There may be deliveries that are expected to be difficult, but still the day of the week is unknown beforehand. It happens, when it happens.
Quote:
This study highlights an association between day of delivery and aspects of performance; in particular, babies born at the weekend had an increased risk of being stillborn or dying in hospital within the first seven days. Moreover, the results also suggest increases in the rates of other complications for both women admitted and babies born at weekends, with higher rates of puerperal infection, injury to neonate, and three day neonatal emergency readmissions.
Several of the studies have focused on outcomes for selected serious conditions. As such, hospital admission is a certainty in all cases. The "weekend effect" was found in those studies.

Quote:
Stroke patients admitted within normal working hours are more likely to achieve process standards and to have better outcomes J. Neurol. Neurosurg. Psychiatry 2016;87:2 138-143

Quote:
Objective Higher risks of adverse outcomes have been reported for patients admitted acutely during off-hours. However, in relation to hip fracture, the evidence is inconsistent. We examined whether time of admission influenced compliance with performance measures, surgical delay and 30-day mortality in patients with hip fracture.
Conclusions Patients admitted off-hours and on-hours received similar quality of care. The risk of surgical delay and 30 days mortality was higher among patients admitted during weekends; explanations need to be clarified.
Quote:
Results Of a total of 4 317 866 emergency admissions, we found 215 054 in-hospital deaths with an overall crude mortality rate of 5.0% (5.2% for all weekend admissions and 4.9% for all weekday admissions). The overall adjusted odds of death for all emergency admissions was 10% higher (OR 1.10, 95% CI 1.08 to 1.11) in those patients admitted at the weekend compared with patients admitted during a weekday (p<0.001).
Conclusions This is the largest study published on weekend mortality and highlights an area of concern in relation to the delivery of acute services.
I could probably come up with a 100 other studies all showing the SAME thing.

TheDaddy 07-05-2016 01:22
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35836151)
As I said, regardless why should it make a difference to the strike? The reports, including the ones used by Jeremy Hunt are prepared by the MEDICAL PROFESSION.

I also pointed out that the day of giving birth is not usually chosen. There may be deliveries that are expected to be difficult, but still the day of the week is unknown beforehand. It happens, when it happens.


Several of the studies have focused on outcomes for selected serious conditions. As such, hospital admission is a certainty in all cases. The "weekend effect" was found in those studies.








I could probably come up with a 100 other studies all showing the SAME thing.
Wonder why jeremy didn't come up with any of those 100 then instead of always focusing on the one with the flawed data

nomadking 07-05-2016 01:34
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35836161)
Wonder why jeremy didn't come up with any of those 100 then instead of always focusing on the one with the flawed data
Not flawed, produced by OTHERS IE the MEDICAL PROFESSION, and shouldn't matter whatever.
Quote:
The Manchester study showed that those who were unwell enough to be admitted to hospital did have a higher chance of death within 30 days if this happened at a weekend.
But they point out the percentage rate was higher simply because it was calculated from a total number of admissions which was lower than during the week.
The authors say in effect there is a higher bar for admission at weekends.
IE they die at home instead.
Quote:
The BMJ work included those who were discharged and died away from the hospital.

TheDaddy 07-05-2016 02:04
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35836162)
Not flawed, produced by OTHERS IE the MEDICAL PROFESSION, and shouldn't matter whatever.
IE they die at home instead.

Oh right that's the reason

Quote:
As a result the figures comparing weekend and weekday death rates are skewed. The NHS has rushed to fix a perceived problem that further research shows does not exist
Quote:
overall patients attending A&E at the weekend are no more likely to die than patients attending A&E on a week day
And it does matter because this whole sorry mess could've been avoided if they're right.

martyh 07-05-2016 07:58
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35836164)
Oh right that's the reason





And it does matter because this whole sorry mess could've been avoided if they're right.
I think we are focusing too much on one thing here .Putting the "weekend effect" aside ,what's wrong with striving for a 7 day NHS anyway ? just about everything else in our lives is 7 days so why not our health care ?

denphone 07-05-2016 08:19
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
l am not against a 7 day NHS but do we have enough staff? for it as the NHS are seriously overstretched now with not enough staff and even then they have to be brought in from abroad.

martyh 07-05-2016 08:33
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35836170)
l am not against a 7 day NHS but do we have enough staff? for it as the NHS are seriously overstretched now with not enough staff and even then they have to be brought in from abroad.
Probably not ,we should be investing more money and the public should be made aware that if we want a viable NHS for the future we will have to pay for it and if that means raising taxes then so be it

nomadking 07-05-2016 08:40
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35836164)
Oh right that's the reason





And it does matter because this whole sorry mess could've been avoided if they're right.
Avoided? Based on the banners, there's meant to be more to it than that. There are to be restrictions on how much Saturday work they are allowed to do, a 30% addition for working a 2nd Saturday in a month, along with the 13.5% overall pay increase to covered reduced weekend rates. Why are Saturdays a problem for the BMA?

So all these studies over the years, by so many organisations, around the world are all skewed? Many have focussed on a single medical condition, often where there is NO question about whether somebody should be admitted or not.
Quote:
Higher mortality in patients hospitalized for acute aortic rupture or dissection during weekends.
BACKGROUND:
The management of acute aortic aneurysm rupture or dissection (AARD) requires specific medical expertise, diagnostic techniques, and therapeutic options, not always available in all hospitals through the entire week. The aim of our study was to evaluate whether an association exists between weekday (WD) or weekend (WE) admission and mortality for patients with ARRD.
CONCLUSIONS:
Our findings show that hospitalization for AARD on WE is associated with a significantly higher mortality rate than hospitalization on WD. Further studies are needed to investigate whether ensuring optimal diagnostic and therapeutic approaches during the entire week might improve the overall survival of patients with ARRD.
The Lancet, May 2015
Quote:
Increased mortality for hospital admissions at weekends has been reported for emergency admissions overall and for specific disorders, although the size of this effect varies across reports.
...
The sizes of the weekend effects on mortality in England and Wales were consistent for all 15 disorders and the Pearson's correlation for each disorder across the two countries was 0·57.The weekend effect was strongest for abdominal aortic aneurysm followed by other disorders with very high mortality during the acute phase; pulmonary embolism, stroke, and subarachnoid haemorrhage. Little or no weekend effect was observed for acute myocardial infarction and less acute disorders; chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, pneumonia, hip fracture, acute pancreatitis, and inflammatory bowel disease. No significant variation was observed in the weekend effect over time or across patient age groups.
These data provide new evidence as to the emergency disorders that are most strongly affected by the weekend effect and show that findings are quite consistent across two health-care systems. The weekend effect is most apparent for disorders with very high mortality that often require access to specialist investigation and care during critical acute phases.

Mr K 07-05-2016 08:43
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35836173)
Probably not ,we should be investing more money and the public should be made aware that if we want a viable NHS for the future we will have to pay for it and if that means raising taxes then so be it
So you want higher taxes now? A few weeks ago you were arguing that higher earners desperately needed tax cuts. Who are these taxes going to fall on? Which party is most likely to implement your radical plan? The Tories ? ;)

denphone 07-05-2016 08:51
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35836173)
Probably not ,we should be investing more money and the public should be made aware that if we want a viable NHS for the future we will have to pay for it and if that means raising taxes then so be it
Yes l quite agree with a lot of those sentiments.

---------- Post added at 08:51 ---------- Previous post was at 08:47 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35836179)
So you want higher taxes now? A few weeks ago you were arguing that higher earners desperately needed tax cuts. Who are these taxes going to fall on? Which party is most likely to implement your radical plan? The Tories ? ;)
l am no lover of the Tories but the public can't have it both ways as we either want a properly funded NHS for the future or our NHS could go the way of America wonderful health system and l don't think many of us want that do we?.

Mr K 07-05-2016 08:58
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
I agree with increasing taxes too; however the Govt. is dogmatically opposed to raising taxes. The public aren't innocent here. Despite what they say to pollsters, they don't vote for parties that promise tax rises. Demands are increasing on the NHS quicker than its budget growing, yet they are expected to expand further. Its an impossible task and I suspect the Govt. knows it i.e. its being set up to fail.


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