Re: ID Cards
 

I don't call the erosion of freedom 'progress'.

The argument is only compelling if you buy the notion that it really will be 'very secure'. But to believe that is to turn your back on the evidence, stick your fingers in your ears and shout "laa laa laa, I'm not listening!"

You're still not responding to the rights and freedoms issue. Do you have anything to say about the relationship of State and Citizen, and how this might be affected? I'm wondering if you consider it to be irrelevant.

Re: ID Cards
 

I am for them, only if you can gurantee 100% that the information can't be forged, stolen etc.
I have no qualms about showing a single ID to prove this is me, I am legit.
I can understand some peoples objections on the grounds of "big brother" but can they answer the simple fact, in the real world, what is the alternative apart from the anarchy that reins now.
It's all nice to say, well most people won't abuse something....but this is the real world, if it can be it will be. Sad fact of life :(

It would aid in determining, say if your "persona non grata", that without the ID you can't purchase anything. But then this goes back to the old chestnut covered many times "is it secure enough" at the moment i doubt it.

Re: ID Cards
 

I can answer that very easily. We don't live in anarchy. I suspect you haven't the faintest idea what anarchy looks like.

Re: ID Cards
 

Ok so if this ID card was able to be altered officially by secured machine so that it could be updated to include licence specific information and could be used as a passport and the data was gauranteed to be as secure as it is possible to make any data secure there would still be opponents of this.

As for the illegal immigrant question having not given it a great deal of thought how about before anyone can live in or rent any accomadation a valid current ID card had to be produced in order for you to get a tenancy or even a hotel room it would provide a significantly larger barrier to be overcome and a complete list of landlords would be easier to police then house to house checks.

Most opposition to this seem to centre about how the information could be misused by a future government regime. That is a pointless objection solely for the fact that should we in the future end up with a regime of that nature whether ID cards exist or not were screwed anyway and getting whatever information will be held on an ID card will be obtained anyway.

They have to prove the data can be held securely for a long period before i will support it that is paramount and i have stated that before. After that i think a five year volunteer piloting of the scheme will be the best and easiest way to allay many concerns those volunteering to participate could be rewarded with a free ID card when the scheme goes compulsory and national.

Right now i miss an ID card i really do as i don't have a current passport nor do i have a current driver's licence now that it has been revoked on medical grounds so proving my ID when i have too can be a complete nightmare and having this would be a big benefit for me and for many others that are in the same situation.

This simply isn't a debate that has an everybody is happy ending and it never will have we will always be split into those that have no problem and those that do and nothing either side says is going to alter the viewpoint of anyone on either side of this argument.

Re: ID Cards
 

I was asking a question, not making a statement. :rolleyes:

Nor do I. But that wasn't the point, was it. ;)

Security will be a challenge, as always.

My response to this is that the state already holds a great deal of information on me - much, much more than would be contained on an ID card.

No one can make such a guarantee. That doesn't stop us using passports, bank cards, Tesco clubcards, etc. etc.

Good idea!

Re: ID Cards
 

I actually DO! I have had to work in various parts of the world where there is utter anarchy. With a bullet hole through my hip to remind me of it.

Even in this country we have opposing viewpoints that spill out into slanging matches and "victimisation" where there is no respect or understanding of differing viewpoints.

Re: ID Cards
 

Respect to you for your efforts in the world's troublespots - but that being the case, how can you say that anarchy reigns in the UK? Anarchy is Somalia, and parts of Afghanistan, possibly some of the remoter corners of Pakistan. The criminality that exists in this country is a Sunday School picnic by comparison.

But then, magnifying the problem in order to justify the solution is one of the Government's tactics, so perhaps it's not surprising if they are allowing us to believe that we're going to hell in a handcart.

After all, if you're safe, you don't need a saviour.

Re: ID Cards
 

Absolutely not. It's hard enough for some people to get accomodation as it is without jumping through more hoops.

Re: ID Cards
 

What happens then if your wallet, that contains your ID card, is stolen? Does this mean that, even as someone who is 'meant' to be here, you can't buy anything because some scrote's got your card?

Re: ID Cards
 

Aside from the hoops, that is also a vision of the kind of regime the Nazis would have been proud of. We shouldn't even be contemplating that kind of draconian imposition on the lives of ordinary people unless the very existence of our country is under direct threat. And it isn't.

Re: ID Cards
 

So its acceptable to show ID to buy a can of beer, but not to rent a room.

:confused:

Re: ID Cards
 

There's no minimum age or health risks attached to renting a room.

Re: ID Cards
 

Again, you're ignoring the issue of entitlement balanced against restriction. You're also confusing something that's common practice among alcohol retailers with something that has been proposed (by another forum member, incidentally, not the Government) could be made law, thanks to the introduction of ID cards.

Society accepts that the specific problem of underage drinking is best dealt with by a law forbidding sales to children, and it generally accepts
that retailers asking for ID if a customer might be underage is a sensible way for the retailers to ensure they are complying with the law. (These days they usually ID if you look under 25, recognising that some people can look much older than they are). Requiring ID is not a legal requirement, so anyone who objects to being asked for ID can always go and find another shop where they don't care so much. It's not that difficult, as I'm sure most of us know from youthful experience.

Now, what specific problem would be being addressed by the Government legally requiring infallible proof of ID before someone could get a room for the night? Is the universal demanding of ID a proportionate response to that problem?

Re: ID Cards
 

Re: ID Cards
 

I don't know, I've slept in some pretty dodgy rooms!

Well, let's use a specific, real-life example. Not so long ago, the IRA were active in the UK, and members of this organisation used to rent rooms to prepare bombs for blowing up innocent citizens. If there had been a requirement to show an ID card prior to renting the room, these guys might have been stopped before killing women and children.

I spent a night in a hotel in Mayfair a couple of weeks ago, and the girl at the desk asked me for my credit card before handing over the key. The inconvenience was minimal. What difference would it make to my civil liberties if they had asked for an ID card instead?