Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

If they (for example) decided to stop all white males between the ages of 20 and 40 I'd be mightily cheesed off so I can't see a problem with Muslims being a bit annoyed with it all. Not too long ago when the checkpoints were rife around the borders with the Republic of Ireland, British soldiers would check your number plate, if your car was registered to a residence in a predominantly Catholic area, more often than not it was shutters down on either side and a couple of rifles poking through the driver and passenger side windows, the British track record on presuming innocence leaves a hell of a lot to be desired and I'd certainly not trust the government or security forces to not abuse these new laws for their own ends.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

I suggest you ask the opinions of the people currently locked up in Belmarsh and those who would be targetted by the Government's House Arrest policy based on nothing more than the say-so of the Home Secretary. (Although even *he* seems to be backing away from that slightly now because he's realised it's a big mistake).

I agree, but that's not what I said. However when "the description of a suspect" is "looks like a Muslim" you're verging onto very dangerous territory.
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The point is that the "Current threat" is almost *NEVER* over!

There will *always* be some "threat" that those in power will argue will justify keeping these powers on the statute books.

Remember that UK Income Tax was a "temporary" measure introduced to finance the war against Napoleon...!!!
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Ah, now we get the logical fallacy of the False Dilemma. Present two choices and make it appear that they are the *only* choices.

Well, sorry, me283, but as I have already pointed out above, they are *NOT* the only choices.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

That is reality, but she has not issued a directive to stop and search only muslims nor has she said that they should get used to it.

No it's not.

If, for example, an unkept scruffy individual was loitering around the jewellery dept in Harrods he would be viewed with suspicion in that circumstance. If he was under the arches with a can of special brew he wouldn't.

In a given circumstance an asian or islamic looking person may be viewed with suspicion over another individual.

It is not racist

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

And neither would I.

But if it was "a white man" would you consider it acceptable (or sensible) to stop *all* white men and question them?

Whoops! Nice try, but, no, actually I *don't* agree with that!

What I do agree, however, is that we are likely to get *less* informants if we treat them *all* as suspects!

I don't know. Which intelligence are you talking about?
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If it comes across as that, I suggest you re-read my posts and try to comprehend what I'm actually talking about.

I do not deny the reality of terrorism, nor that there are people who will commit such acts.

However neither will I accept that the *ONLY* way to deal with it is to throw away the precious rights we have fought so hard for in the past because that will give a *VICTORY* to the terrorists as we dance to their tune!

Do you *really* think I am so shallow or self-centred that I would change my tune completely just because something affects *me* and not someone else?

But neither am I so naiive as to think that rights are merely conveniences, not necessities to a civilised and democratic society.

[qutoe]The world is full of people who harm or wish to harm others, often indiscriminately. They show no compassion, and no respect for anyone's "rights".[/quote]

So to *defeat* them, we must *become* them by using *their* methods :rolleyes: That is *NOT* the sort of society I want to live in!!

Fighting fire with fire leaves nothing but ashes - Gandhi.

And it's all very well to talk about "inconveniencing a minority" when *YOU* are not *part* of that minority...
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The problem is, you are asking the wrong question here.

What you should be asking is "how many people's rights do you think it is acceptable to violate in the *hope* of catching one bomber?"
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No, it's because they look like MUSLIMS!!!

True, but that is the wrong point.

The search was a condition of your entry to that establishment. If you objected to the search, you could choose not to go in there.

If you object to the Police searching you because you look like you follow a particular religion, they arrest you.
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Fine, if you think I'm wrong *please* counter my arguments, but simply making ad hominem attacks doesn't help the debate.

Except that, as I note...

If you don't want a debate, don't complain about those who do.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

True, but there is no getting away from the fact that it is muslim extremists that are the perceived threat.

If was hare Krishnas then if you had a bald head, orange robes and little symbols on your fingers then you may be viewed with suspicion in a given circumstance.

And I have to stress "given circumstance" if you are a muslim or asian out doing your shopping on the high street you will not be unneccessariliy harassed.

but if you were to go into a chemical wholesalers and ask for 300ltrs of a volatile compound then that might get someones attention.

I take your point, but I refer you back to my posts on Northern Ireland for a better analogy

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Sorry, were we talking about Belsen...???
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Now ask yourself this:

*WOULD* the methods being proposed have *STOPPED* New York, Spain, Bali et al...?
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Fine, one piece of anecdotal evidence, but not exactly substantive proof.

Now try asking her what she would do if she knew someone who was going to commit a terrorist act.

Would she keep quiet or do something about it?

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

You just answered your own point there. And people are held "under suspicion", and that is clearly made to them. Held "under suspicion" has long, long been the accepted way here, long before Blunkett came along.

Come on, be sensible. You know that isn't true.

But you said (and I was going by...)

Sounds to me you was re-affirming what Ramrod had already said?

Last time we debated it, all intelligence. If you remove informants from the intelligence category, that only leaves intelligence that was found whilst right to privacy was not observed.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Damn right! Which is *WHY* it is necessary for us to make a stink about laws like these and ID Cards *BEFORE* they can be abused!
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It doesn't matter *WHAT* you call it, it is *STILL* discriminatory and unacceptable and that is the important point.
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Yes, but there is *also* no getting away from the fact that it is *discriminatory* to treat *all* Muslims as suspects based on the actions of a *minority*!

And I refer you to Bifta's responsel

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

The report states " Hazel Blears said innocent Muslims would be targeted because of the search for Islamic extremists." If that it is accurate (don't want that debate going again!) then its as good as all muslims because they make no distinction between innocence and guilt in exercising powers. As I've already said God help us if its left to Police judgement because that's precisely what caused the 1981 riots. It's policing by caricature and its a nonsense. And most importantly, it won't work

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

Funny you should mention Belsen......people tried to appease the Nazis at first.....look where that got us
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Who knows.....worth a try don't you think?
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She is a muslim and as such probably knows what she is talking about re muslim attitudes in the UK

Whats that got to do with it? Perhaps we should ask her elders in her mosque.....

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

WHAT?!!!

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

I take your point

but I'm not hearing any other options. During the IRA threat all people in N.I. were treated with suspicion. Even more so Catholics.

It wasn't nice but had to be done.

Unfortunately, through no fault of their own, some islamic/asian people may be inconvenienced, if in a given circumstance the police have good reason to speak to them.

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

I will ask again then.........what will work? :confused:


I have a patient who works for the govt advising UK embassies worldwide about security......
He had just come in from London and said that given the level of threat we are under atm, if he was offered a job that meant he had to use the tube every day, he wouldn't take the job. :erm:

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

I've been wanting that for months now :erm: :(

Re: Muslims should expect to be stopped....
 

If nazi intentions had been nipped in the bud then Belsen wouldn't have happened.....you agree?