Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Interesting article from the Times of Israel, published the day after the Hamas attack.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-ye...-in-our-faces/

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I guess it’s reassuring that the penny is finally dropping among people who would consider themselves good moral arbiters of these things.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Pretty sure "weaken a moderate political party which has renounced violence and supports a peaceful two-state solution by strengthening a terrorist group whose stated aim is to wipe you out" isn’t really "pragmatic", and was never going to end well…

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Wow, incidentally I saw Mark Regev on BBC live reporting yesterday questioning how innocent anyone in Gaza really was, Mouzak and Regev, two cheeks of the same arse

---------- Post added at 11:53 ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 ----------

Netanyahu thought I'd last forever with "an acceptable level of violence"

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Looks like Israel has changed direction and won't be leaving Gaza soon. Surely that won't go down well with the bombed and starved remaining population?
https://www.ft.com/content/bdd6b3c7-...7-e6b42504d18d

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I doubt they ever had any plans to the contrary.

I think we should file the pretence that this is about Israeli self-defence alongside other extremist positions.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It's not a question of "proportionality". There's no such thing in war, only winners and losers.

Israel is at war with Hamas, Netanyahu has already stated his strategic objectives. To totally eliminate Hamas and remove their ability to ever attack Israel again.

If that means systematically going through Gaza and destroying anything that they think is being used by Hamas.........then that is what they're going to do.

---------- Post added at 12:25 ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 ----------

Eliminating your enemy, or at least eliminating their capability to attack you, is self defence.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The pretence that there’s any strategy here other than ethnic cleansing will wear thin over time.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I’m quite content with when my penny dropped thanks - seemingly far sooner than you think. Though let’s not pretend you stand anywhere near any vantage point from where you could judge someone else’s morals.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I mean yes, I try to avoid opining on morality to avoid accusations of rank hypocrisy. It saves me ranking human lives as well either on race or utility to US foreign policy objectives.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Israel needs to disrupt and deter Hamas from any further attacks. Otherwise Hamas will simply attack again and again. Of course, so many people will NOT be asking for a ceasefire from Hamas.

What's so complicated about that?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The people asking for a cease-fire are asking it of both sides (otherwise it’s not a cease-fire, is it?) - you’re just making stuff up….

Israel need to have a plan for what they do after they defeat Hamas, or all that will happen is that a successor to Hamas will appear, just like Hamas were a successor to Fatah.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Which is it? Crush obliterate Gaza because Hamas should be crushed (is that the strategic objective?), or just crush them until Hamas release hostages (a substantively different objective)?

Certainly nothing I've heard from the Israeli Government supports the claim that the release of the hostages is the primary objective.

Since Israel has essentially made the objective something completely unachievable it's a never ending conflict. Which, if you wanted to commit ethnic cleansing but not call it that, would be exactly the type of scenario you'd want to engineer.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

He's not, the demands for a ceasefire have been squarely directed at Israel.

and I haven't seen anyone demanding an immediate ceasefire, also demanding the immediate release of all the hostages.......funny that.....

First things first.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Hamas have exceeded the Israeli kill rate of civilians on one single day in the last month. If Israel unilaterally ceased fire, Hamas would barely nudge the dial on civilians killed. If they moved it at all.

The only hostages getting killed are by Israeli bombs.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I don't the releasing of the hostages would stop Israel, but it may make them open to a temporary cease fire, and or a string of cease fires enabling people to leave, aid to get it in etc.

It's one of them, Netanyahu said so in his speech last week.

Well the problem is that Hamas and pretty much every bordering state would happily ethnically cleanse all Jews, without a second thought.

The two state solution is a non-starter because Palestinians don't want it, and have already turned it down at least once. For Palestinians and Palestinian supporters the only solution is one state solution.....a Palestinian state, from the river to the sea.

Therefore, it is logical that the only solution for Israel is a one state solution...... Israel, from the river to the sea.

Call it what you want.

---------- Post added at 16:12 ---------- Previous post was at 16:09 ----------

So they should release the hostages then, and there may be room to talk


you don't think the hostages should be immediately, unconditionally released?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

There’s no real evidence for the claim that any of the states bordering Israel want to ethnically cleanse Jews. It’s a Zionist dog whistle.

It’s definitely a non-starter if Israel are complicit in the political functioning, and funding, of Hamas over the status of the Palestinian authority.

The scenario you describe would be called genocide because that’s what it would be, not because anyone on this forum claimed it so.

Doesn’t sound like much of a commitment to be honest.

You asked the question why you don’t hear as many people calling for it. I simply pointed out the biggest threat to the lives of any hostages is the same threat to all the civilians (including women and children) in Gaza. An Israeli bomb.

At some point it’s up to people how they want to expend their energy, and there’s a clear rationale for why a ceasefire is of greater humanitarian importance than the release of hostages. The only rationale for not doing so is valuing a lesser number of Israeli lives above a greater number of Palestinian ones.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

That’s one of the most laughable statements from you, from any time.

All Jews inhabiting neighbouring states were driven, and Israel ever succumbed to those states in a war, it would be a genocide, a proper genocide.

https://youtu.be/p9YcAEYr7Ww?si=6Ys1VpIbsejpJMkA


Sorry, you’re going to have to help me out with that.

Israel is surrounded on all sides by Islamic Arab states. Egypt has all of Sinai, that could easily accommodate all Palestinians. There wouldn’t have to be a genocide displacing Palestinians to neighbouring Arab states.

But neighbouring Arab states don’t want Palestinians at all.

Israelis don’t have that option, Israelis could not be displaced to neighbouring states as they would all be dead in a few months.


Well, when you’re outgunned and your very survival depends on how you play the few the cards you have, you have play with what you’ve got.

It’s irrelevant, Hamas is a jihadi death cult, so they won’t do it. If good Muslims die they go to heaven so they don’t care if their own people die, if they kill infidels…well they deserve to die anyway.

I’ll take that as a no. I wasn’t asking for analysis, I was asking you what think and it’s a yes or no answer.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Except for the UN

https://press.un.org/en/2023/ga12555.doc.htm

and 35 Israeli Jewish and Arab Rights Groups

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/...b-b77e8a860000

The Pope

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...se-2023-10-29/

Amnesty International

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/ne...ives-humanely/

Oxfam

https://www.oxfam.org/en/open-call-i...nian-territory

The Scottish First Minister

https://www.gov.scot/publications/ce...tical-leaders/

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Sorry Pierre I thought history started on October 7. If we are going back further, only to further the Zionist cause, you must permit the deaths of tens of thousands of Palestinians prior to your arbitrary start date be brought into the debate.

It’s difficult to work out a response to the rest of your post since you seem to be advocating a genocide, something to universally reprehensible the arguments rarely need made, I’ll save the rest of the forum members from the back and forth.

You are only seeing what you want to see, and cherry picking events from a complex history to suit.

Israel already occupies Gaza by any international standard and once they have boots on the ground long term as Netanyahu indicates nobody can be surprised when whatever state apparatus Israel puts in place will becomes a target - and a legitimate under international law given the atrocities committed by Israel in the last month. There’s no victory, military or moral, to be had.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

and why is that?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Did you read that, or just see the headline on your Google search, and copy and paste it?

“Some” Members of the UN did. The representative of the League of Arab States whilst demanding a Ceasefire certainly doesn’t.

Also they couldn’t even agree to unilaterally condemn the atrocities of Oct 7th……….good old UN.

I know you didn’t read this one as you have to subscribe to it.

The letter, which isn’t published, and I’ve checked several other sites and still not seen it, doesn’t ask for immediate release of hostages. It asked for a ceasefire and to “work towards” a release of hostages…..very different.


I’ll give the Pope his due………but he is the Pope. Your other links also pass muster.

But in future if you’re just going to do a Google search, and copy the headlines that look like they align with your point, I’ll think even less of you than I do now…………

---------- Post added at 20:46 ---------- Previous post was at 20:31 ----------

I’ve never said that.

I didn’t set an arbitrary date.

I’m happy to go back to the 16th century BCE if you like.

No it’s quite simple, I break it down even simpler. As we know only a single state solution is acceptable to Palestinians. Relocation of Palestinians is not a genocide, there is ample land in Sinai and other neighbouring Arab states to accommodate Palestinians to enable a single Israeli state solution.

To flip it the other way, to a single Palestinian state solution the Jews cannot relocate anywhere n any neighbouring Arab state, as they would all be killed in a matter of months and that would be genocide.

Quite simple really.

no I’m not, as I say, I set no arbitrary date, I’m happy to go back to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Israel only entered Gaza in the last few days. It has not occupied it since 2005

You and I have a different definition of atrocity.

---------- Post added at 20:47 ---------- Previous post was at 20:46 ----------

Do tell us.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Last time I tried I was told it was pie in the sky and despite just days later the US Secretary of State telling Israel much of what I suggested was the right thing to do I think I've learnt my lesson, besides which you're the one with the bright ideas, why would you suggest something without being in full receipt of the facts and potential ramifications

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Israel have killed more than ten times the number of people Hamas have, decimated the lives of tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands more.

I’ve no real need to mention the actions of Hamas - it’s been covered extensively. To qualify every criticism of Israel’s failure to adhere to what were, until 4 weeks ago, internationally recognised standards any civilised country should adhere to at war with the criticism of a terrorist organisation is unnecessary. Israel and the Zionist propaganda machine have enough out there, including the paid shills of our political class, my words are unnecessary. Israel’s actions are beyond justification and I’m not participating in such a charade.

I’ve no desire to commit a crime in this country, or any other, so campaigning for Hamas would be foolish. Neither is it consistent with my own beliefs in any case.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

That would be an invalid statement - the Palestinian Authority has worked towards a Two State Solution a number of times.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/two-state-solution

Unless you are stating that Hamas represents all Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, even though they are banned in the West Bank and 74% of the current population of Gaza have never voted for them?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I genuinely have no idea what you’re talking about..

---------- Post added at 23:07 ---------- Previous post was at 22:47 ----------

I urge everyone to read this article, yes you too JFman, because it also validates your stance, and Chris’ and possibly Hugh’s as well.

There is……there is no answer…depressingly……until there is eventually a full on genocide of the Jews.

https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/is...tate-solution/

= Chris’ and I think JF’s earlier point.

I think, as I have said above a couple of times now, this only ends with the eradication of one people from the region, be them Jew or Palestinian.

Palestinians would not be eradicated, as they can migrate to neighbouring states, if Israel fail to protect themselves………they will be exterminated.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It's an interesting article but it doesn't state the reason why "Israel will prevail in those conflicts with the Palestinians until, one day, it doesn’t."

The country is in two parts, incredibly poor, has no airport and airforce and its population cannot freely leave the country. Providing it's kept like that then I can't see it can ever prevailing against Israel.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Course you don't, lets leave that aside then and go with you're the one who came up with the bright idea of ethnically cleansing hundreds of thousands of people from their homes and moving them to the desert and now require other people to tell you why that's a bad idea and if that's not enough there's another reason why Arab countries don't want them too that anyone who'd paid a scintilla of attention over the last 40 odd years would know.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Is there any evidence Hamas would actually obey any ceasefire ?

Given how they started this latest war, I would not trust them an inch, and neither I suspect will Israel.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Think there is plenty of evidence to prove they would not. They want Israel gone that is pretty clear

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Ok, now you've phrased it better I understand

I was just highlighting that one group will have to be removed as a two state solution wont happen and the difference between the two is that Palestinians could be resettled with arab neighbours but jews could not.



Do tell

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The Jews could be resettled to North America where they find their best (only?) ally?

Probably cheaper than the tens of billions in military aid America are already provided. Guaranteed security.

Although I accept it doesn’t benefit the shareholders of the military industrial complex.

(To be clear, this isn’t my proposed answer. I’m only pointing out how ridiculous it sounds to support ethnic cleansing)

There will always be another Hamas, or some other useful idiots America fund in a proxy war, willing to take up the mantle. That’s no reason to deny Palestinians the right to exist in their own homeland.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The Israelites and the Palestinians all share the same common ancestors the Canaanites anyway so either side claiming they have rights to the land over each other is folly.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The relocation idea is 100% antisemitic Pierre.

It’s the counter claim that the suggestion that ethnic cleansing the Palestinians is a good idea that’s also racist. I just opened your eyes to it by turning it on it’s head.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Given that a two state solution is not possible, which group do you suggest should inherit the land in question.

How it will be decided? and what happens to the displaced group?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I think it’s presumptuous to suggest a two state solution isn’t possible.

It’s not helpful to have an Israeli government spending 17 years propping up Hamas though at the expense of developing a normal economic and political ecosystem in the Palestinian territories.

If you think they’re bad guys, shouldn’t you condemn Israel for their part?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Look what's happened to countries that have accommodated large numbers of Palestinians before, civil wars and coup attempts, not sure I'd be keen to solve Israel's problems with those potential consequences

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It's been on offer, at least a couple times, no takers. Mainly because the only terms acceptable to Palestinians is there should be no Jewish state at all, you know River to the Sea and all that.

So I ask again, Given that a two state solution is not possible, which group do you suggest should inherit the land in question.

How it will be decided? and what happens to the displaced group?

You thrown this is in a couple of times now, so again help me out. Is this just your theory or do have something I can refer to?

---------- Post added at 14:06 ---------- Previous post was at 14:00 ----------

We can agree on that.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The whole area could be shared between the two sides if the Palestinians weren’t so violent and objectionable.

Integration will never be possible until there is trust, which is a long way off. And if anyone thinks the Israelis are going to be bullied off their land, they have another think coming.

In the meantime, Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar is said to have been isolated in his bunker, according to Israel. Perhaps the end to this war is in sight.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Post #601 in this thread, yesterday @ 09:32

re your other point

From the article I posted yesterday at 23:07 in reply to a previous post of yours

https://www.britannica.com/topic/two-state-solution

You keep conflating "Hamas" with "Palestinians", when in fact Fatah has a number of times taken part in Two State talks, but they keep falling apart when the Israelis set up new settlement in the West Bank and Jerusalem, in contravention of the Oslo Accords.

---------- Post added at 14:39 ---------- Previous post was at 14:37 ----------

You’re conflating "Hamas" with "Palestinians" - all Hamas are Palestinians, not all Palestinians are Hamas.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

They are occupying the West Bank for security reasons, again due to the violence and intimidation of the Palestinians. They haven’t taken it over, they are sharing the land, which of course is the only sensible long term objective.

As for your statement about conflating Hamas with the wider Palestinian population, they all seem to be stubbornly clinging on to their hatred of Israel and feel the need to have them all destroyed.

There’s a reason why Jordan didn’t want them.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...-violence.html

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Was there a comment there from you, Hugh?

I am aware of what you have posted, but if anyone thinks the atrocities of 7 October wouldn’t provoke a response, they are not living in the real world.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

A hit piece on Netanyahu is not evidence of an Israeli plan to prop up Hamas. I can see the logic in keeping the Palestinian Govts (for want of a better word) of Gaza and the West Bank separate to prevent a unified Palestinian state (which only strengthens my point about neither side wanting a two state solution).

It it offers no other evidence, apart from attempting to link the issuing of work permits to Gazan’s to the funding of Hamas, again with only conjecture and no evidence.

You’d better off looking towards the multitude of “charities” working in Gaza rather than Netanyahu’s government

Israel: World Vision Gaza boss diverted cash to Hamas https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-36974350

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...ts-2023-10-16/

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

There's plenty of evidence from his own mouth that he propped up hamas, Israeli newspapers are full of it and once this is over he'll be answering a lot of awkward questions

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Palestinians are the only people fighting for their existence.

Israelis live safely under the iron dome, and it’s by their own incompetence a thousand Israelis got killed by unmonitored Hamas militants who - ironically - Israel can now confidently confirm are all in hospitals, churches, ambulances, refugee camps, etc.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Well you’ve given yourself away now, haven’t you. Victim blaming? For shame, and a new low, which is saying something. Denial of agency is a common blind spot in your thinking but this really takes the biscuit.

A thousand Israelis were killed because a large raiding party of murderers used their agency as human beings to kill them. It’s as simple and dreadful as that.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It was Israel’s blind spot, not mine. The role and purpose of the state is to defend its people, it’s perfectly possible to criticise the failings of the state without blaming the victims on an individual level.

Somewhat ironic that you give the IDF a free pass on the agency front under the pretence of having a strategic or calculated objective.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Hence they've only bombed 18 out of 35 hospitals in Gaza because they were the ones hamas were in :spin:

The only hospital capable of treating people suffering from cancer shut 10 days ago and those patients are now starting to die

9700 civilians have been killed in the Ukraine by Russia in the 21 months since the invasion began, Israel has killed that many in a month 65% of whom are women and children and the death toll will undoubtedly be higher than that as there are large numbers buried under rubble no one even knows about yet

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

and 240+ hostages ...

Safely ? Still doing PR for Hamas I see.
Btw, it was over 1400, not "a thousand".
[ Plus potentially 240 or so more, see above ].

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It’s not PR for Hamas to point out objective reality.

1 in 200 Palestinians have been (directly) killed in this conflict in the last month. Not to mention those with health conditions running out of medication, in hospitals running out of power, etc.

A tragedy happened in Israel, but the notion that they Israel as a nation are fighting for their very existence against a terror group armed with gliders and guns is Zionist propaganda.

---------- Post added at 08:00 ---------- Previous post was at 07:59 ----------

:clap:

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Israel is always under threat of annihilation, and I reckon there are other actors waiting to see if she puts herself into a diplomatic situation that they can move against her with reduced international risk.


And we do differentiate between Palestinian and Hamas. I disagree that all Hamas are Palestinian, some/many/most are likely outsiders. And those outsiders do want to destroy Israel and, if possible, all Jews. And many of them don't really care about the Palestinians either, likely a reason they are so willing to use them as shields.



Israel doesn't help herself by not being more forceful against the ultras who keep pushing into Palestinian territory. Those ultras are also too selective about scripture. They like the bits that talk about all the land being theirs west of the Jordan but seemingly ignore repeated calls about justice to "foreigners". (Ex 22:21; 23:9; Lev 19:33-34; Deut 10:18-19 - love foreigners) There is special reference to knowing what it like to be the ill-treated foreigner. This is especially pertinent now since the Jews have be "foreigners" in more places than when the scriptures were written.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Ukraine is just a little bit bigger (so anything is harder to accurately hit) and the Ukrainian military are not hiding in hospitals or among the population. Ukraine can also shoot down a large number of the missiles aimed at them, and have largely prevented any air strikes, so not really a valid comparison. Despite all this, Russia is still attacking civilian targets.

---------- Post added at 23:30 ---------- Previous post was at 23:26 ----------

Your posts are not even close to being objective, they are almost 100% directed against Israel in some manner. :sleep:

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

That’s because Israel’s actions are contemptible.

There’s no duty to condemn Hamas in every post, so I don’t. I have in the past but I’m not doing Israeli PR for them by framing their own actions with a sympathetic narrative that they are unworthy of.

I’ve pointed out before nobody will find a single post where I defend Hamas. A challenge nobody took me up on then and people are free to do so now.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

There is no side to pick.Both are behaving disgustingly.

The only people I have any sympathy for are the ordinary Palestinians who have nowhere to go unless they leave the only place that has been home to their families well back into the 20th century.Thay have been kicked in the teeth time and time again,labeled as terrorists if they dare to try and defend themselves.I used to defend the plucky Israelis in setting up a new state after the horrors of WW2 and Auschwitz But in recent years the scales have fallen from my eyes.They are no longer th plucky little state I once thought but a bully involved in land grabbing.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

One again wilfully misrepresenting what was actually said to frame it in Zionist terms. This is why I don't play these games and state - unequivocally - that Israel are a terrorist state acting without justification.

Other people can debate other issues.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Russia has/ had a much bigger army, with more missiles and bombs but it's a fair point, international law does demand that if the enemy is hiding in a hospital then you shouldn't bomb it, full stop, unequivocal

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

it doesn't.

Steven Kay.

https://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/05/a...ime/index.html

I think he knows what he's talking about.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The evidence that hospitals are being used for military purposes will be weaker than for the “40 beheaded babies” claim.

There seems to be a worrying push to deny Palestinians any safe haven at all in this thread.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The evidence is very strong and has been for years.

NATO wrote a report on it a full decade ago

https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfi...an_shields.pdf

The terrorists themselves admit they do it.

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/bkrxjhcf6

https://allarab.news/hamas-admits-us...human-shields/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-mistake.html

I could have posted a hundred examples.



I couldn't ask the babies as they didn't have any heads.

1) BTW, are you implying that didn't happen, 2) or that it wasn't 40?

Because if it's 1) then I would you hold you in the same regard as a holocaust denier and if it's 2) I would ask what would an acceptable number be?

No doubt you'll just throw, "thousands of Palestinians" at me and not answer, that's fine. I'm not an expecting an answer from you, you never do.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Netanyahu has specifically said that isn’t a deal.

---------- Post added at 15:01 ---------- Previous post was at 14:56 ----------

Did you ask the babies if their heads blew off in an attack by Apache helicopters on homes and cars?

I personally don’t think there’s an acceptable number of dead civilians. However, if someone told me there were 40 beheaded babies and it turned out to be 2 then told me a number of hospitals were being used by Hamas I’d be inclined to be sceptical that it was another piece of propaganda.

Have Israel published a list of victims by age?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It's a great thing to hide behind. When every point put to you is easily swatted away with......but thousands of dead palestinians....

is that what happened?

I wonder how many of the....14,000, actually will turn out to be. If they're counting them by the same metric as the 500 killed in the hospital, sorry car park, attack...then who knows.

What is the quote, "the first casualty of war is the truth". I'll be ready to admit I'm sure Israel will be manipulating some of the information that is released, but doubt it's anywhere of the scale of Hamas.

Who seem to have their own propoganda acting division.


https://www.opindia.com/2023/11/mr-f...ody-sometimes/


I don't know but I think they have identified all the victims, which took them a long time accurately count and name, they should follow Hamas' technique as they can accurately count them in minutes of an attack happening.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Nobody knows, 2 is equally as speculative as 40 based on facts in the public domain.

It’s hard to identify bodies blown up by Apache helicopters that can’t distinguish between civilians and terrorists so fire indiscriminately, we can agree on that point. Even worse where limbs have been blown off, or heads.

Some of the videos of destroyed buildings, burned out cars and crowds being fired upon is truly horrific. Israelis might have got a glimpse of what the Palestinians are now living under in their final seconds.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Silly me, I was quoting The Geneva Convention which as I'm sure you and your learned friend know is the basis for international law, what a lovely get out, explains why Russia got away with bombing the hospitals in Syria with barely a murmur of condemnation and frankly I don't buy it any more that I bought that plank from hamas saying those Israelis on october 7th were legitimate targets because they were military reservists

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Surprised no one has mentioned this before.

https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1722922249617903907

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Israel has revised downwards it’s estimate of those killed on October 7 to “around 1200” having initially included some terrorists.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Now, now.

If 200 terrorists were charred beyond recognition you can’t discount the probability that some of the civilians or captured Israeli military in the same cars or homes as terrorists might have been “collateral damaged” by Israel.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I’m not disputing who is unaccounted for. I’m disputing the cause of death.

Your specific rhetoric “brutally killed” isn’t compatible with the terminology used if they died under Israeli fire. That’s collateral damage. Bad stuff happens in war. Etc. etc.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

And………..


Breaking news, Hamas has revised the estimates of those jews killed on Oct 7th to have been totally killed by by terrorists mobilised by them.

Israel also agreed that the murderous groups enacting sub-human barbarism acts taking pleasure and celebrating killing babies, children and women, may have included some terrorists

Those pesky terrorists

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I’d have thought you’d have welcomed the news of less civilian deaths and less (likelihood of) child beheadings in a more dignified manner.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Nah, I’ll tell you where I am. Which is probably at the opposite end of where you are.

It’s very sad what Israel is doing, but I understand why they’re doing it. If I was in their position would I do it? Probably.

Israel have set their objectives, for all.

Do I agree with pro-Palestine marches?…….no because the current marches are pro-Hamas marches.

Pro-Palestinian marches, as observed recently, are just far right anti-Semitic marches.

Those dick heads walking around with Palestinian flags should look in the mirror, and if they see Tommy Robinson…in the reflection…….that’s who they are.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I’m very happy to be at the opposite end of the scale [removed].

.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

You seem surprised, I'm not.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I’m very happy to be at the opposite end of the scale from Pierre, who accepts there is only space for one state and that should be Israeli.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Unbelievable.

What are you smoking/drinking mate?

Tell us what Tommy thinks mate.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-armistice-day

Adjust your meds.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

We know that, your 100% behind the pro-Hamas marches that believe there is only room for one state, and that state should be Palestine ( from the river to the sea)

---------- Post added at 08:50 ---------- Previous post was at 08:48 ----------

You’re right, why they’re allowing these far right, marches to go ahead is unbelievable.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

There’s no such thing as a pro-Hamas march in the UK. If there was, I’d fully expect the police to intervene. However there isn’t, thus they don’t.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Do Hamas have armed fighters, yes or no? Seeing as the answer is yes, where are they? Are they on bases out in the open, away from "civilians"? Yes or no? Where else is Israel supposed to attack? The aim will be to disrupt and disarm Hamas as much as possible.



Bear in mind many of the protestors calling for a ceasefire, AFTER an attack by Hamas, cheered after attacks on 9/11, 7/7 and 7th October. That is the sort of people we're talking about.

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So when did they take part in an anti-Hamas march, anywhere around the world, including Gaza itself? How many of them are against the actions of Hamas?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Had they been pro Hamas marches then they would have been able to have been banned.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

As are you, this can’t be defined in simplistic terms due to its historic nature. Well you can but you would be wrong.


To be clear Hamas’s actions are utterly deplorable, but let’s not for one minute suggest that Israel are innocent in their current or previous actions. Not that their past behaviour justifies Hamas actions (sad that I have to write that but it would appear that unless you explicitly denounce Hamas in every post you somehow support their aims)

Israel’s current objective namely to eradicate Hamas is doomed to fail because all Hamas has to do is to survive to win. Hamas influence and offensive capabilities will certainly be significantly reduced but they won’t be wiped out and you can bet that a percentage of the individuals or families of those who were classed as collateral damage will go on to seek revenge

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Your mate Tommy is doing it. What's the problem?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

cruella got her wish far right causing trouble

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

You’re wrong in the sense of trying to use the only the latest situation as a means to define the entire conflict.

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Can’t wait to see the Home Secretary denounce the actions of the counter protestors who launched missiles at the police and has led to a significant amount of arrests.

More than likely she’ll try to blame it on the actions of a peaceful protest which seems to have had no trouble within it, well, non that I can see reported.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Bit of a misleading headline in the Times today…

Worded to make it sound like the clashes were involving the Pro-Palestinian marchers, imho

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/p...-day-0kx7zrtl6

When in fact

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I'm afraid I think you've lost touch with reality. If the marches were pro-Hamas then they would be banned in the UK.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Sorry but those collective people who were unable to differentiate between a protest being held in the name of of implentimg a ceasefire/stopping the deaths of innocent civilians as opposed to a pro Hamas demonstration gave motive and enabled the acts that we’ve seen today.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Yes Sherlock, several people have said that, of course they are not officially Pro-Hamas marches. But there are many pro-Hamas and anti-Semitic chants, banners, and slogans.

I’m just calling them what they really are.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

29 arrests total at pro Palestinian marches in the U.K. resulting in six charged so far, as opposed to 92 counter protestors arrested just today. A few bad apples in a barrel doesn’t define the motives of the entire series of protests

There seems to be a complete lack of condemnation for the throwing of missiles at the police ?

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The met are searching for two people wearing pro Hamas headbands out of a count of 300,000 pro Palestinian protestors a tiny tiny proportion

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The sum total of criminality appears to be two people that might be wearing “Hamas headbands”.

I do enjoy when the far right come out. Gives something for teachers to use as a warning to kids what will happen if they don’t pay attention in class.