Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Fuel rationing in the 70s maybe but the war rations ended before you were born ;)

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

I remember being a kid in the 70s with power cuts and candles. It was great fun !

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Just all the other stuff, then…

Luxury… ;)

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

..... and now I feel really old, I can remember handing over a coupon to buy a small paper twist of sweets. I also remember going to the shop and quite often there not being any left.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

To be fair, not many shops left now either :D

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Get ya readings in if you need to so you stop getting fleeced new prices on energy already used

Octopus are being nice and not starting till Midnight Saturday and giving a week to get those readings in

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

I've literally just sent Octopus my readings in :rolleyes: Maybe they'll pro rata the extra few days at the old rate, they've been pretty good so far (though I may not be saying that when my new flexible prices come through).

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

no one can offer you a better price, Octopus have already said theirs will be £50 under the price cap

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Unless you have a working smart meter, found a use for it at last. Anyway have a fixed price for a the next 12 months, so putting the pain off :cool:

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

So do I. Bloody unions!

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

I submitted readings on Tuesday (evening), not really bothered about 2 days.

Out of interest, I tried to login today and got this ;

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

It took me 5mins to log into Bulb earlier, it said I submitted my gas reading ok on the site but gave an error for electricity but I still got an email or several emails saying they had received it.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

My readings have just been sent - all went through splendidly.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Scottish Power set up a new webpage to allow readings to be sent in.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

This mornings shower was reassuringly expensive, I've ordered a solid gold shower head to reflect the price of hot water:spin:

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Had a late night gaming, got up 9:15 this morning to find the central heating on full bore. Sure wish wife & daughter would bugger off back working in an office instead of at home.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Not sure which thread to put this in but i've just received my £150 rebate, im in the South Cambridge region.

Anyone else had theirs?

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Mine is going in tomorrow

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Nothing down here.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

I got mine on 7 April - it looks like my council were very efficient with this.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Just checked my councils site, mine is due Friday 13th :erm:

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

I, unfortunately, won't get the £150 rebate as my council tax band is E.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Will you struggle without it?

Personally I would have liked it to be means tested and those who will really struggle get more. I used no gas for heating this winter due to costs and I have had to massively change my habits to afford leccy.

Thankfully I got the WHD and this £150 will mean I manage till October and the WHD and the £200 then will mean I can survive till the next change which early estimates might actually be a drop. (According to Martin Lewis latest update)

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

No, not really, but it would have been nice to get it, we aren't that well off.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

We don't pay by DD so we have to wait for a letter from the council to tell us how to claim the payment.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Mine is as high as they go :shocked: no problem for me but near neighbors have lived in the same house since the 1950s on a fixed income a struggle as it is, not to put a finer point on it . They think the council provide free meals on wheels as well as window cleaning . No family and hardly ever go out ,so unlikely to fine out anything different

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

An interesting article

Worth reading full article https://news.sky.com/story/the-surre...-glut-12614797

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Spent mine the coal bunker is full.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

But… but… competition was meant to drive prices down they said. :confused:

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

From the full article.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

I wonder if that trend holds for shareholder dividends.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Depends on which businesses you're talking about.:rolleyes:
The buyers of the gas, who then sell it onto consumers, won't make a profit. As they are having to buy it at the higher price. The clue is in the thread title, "Energy companies collapse", ie they go bankrupt.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Esso and Shell are singing and dancing all the way to the bank but are also hoping the Tories block the Windfall Tax vote today

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Really? None of them are making profits?

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

None of them have gone bust?

---------- Post added at 17:09 ---------- Previous post was at 17:06 ----------

It's all the other producers that are "singing and dancing all the way to the bank". They are getting paid more and don't have to contend with UK tax and business regulations.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Shell, BP, Exxon Mobil and Chevron 1st quarter combined profits 22 Billion. Centrica (BG) also doing well

E.on also expecting a .5 Billion profit increase

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

So producers and/or non-UK companies, and not UK suppliers.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Profit is profit. Plenty of it sucked from consumers due to inadequate regulation.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Energy retailers eg Octopus - those that buy in advance are ok, those that don't have been nationalised or placed into administration.

Energy wholesalers eg BP are making good profits from the surge in wholesale prices.

However, there is a degree of vertical integration so many do both eg Centrica/British Gas, Shell, EDF, E-on, Scottish Power, etc.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Shell made the most profit locally from their wells in the North Sea supplying Gas to the UK I believe and they are one of the companies who will be hit by the hopeful windfall tax

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Shell is a producer. Not their fault, buyers are having to pay high prices. Not their fault the UK and other countries(eg Germany) have introduced extra costs, rules, and restrictions, that have played a major part in creating the situation.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

On the bright side my Shell dividends have been increasing nicely. Just as well my old man was a Tory and bequeathed shares to me :)

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Of course it is their fault. Ultimately they are the ones(among others) charging the inflated prices because demand is high. They do not have to they just are. You just have to see their profits to see where the money is going

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Shell may have gained from the hike due in part to Ukraine but they have had to exit Russia.

Poor regulation has helped increase UK prices - allowing gas storage to be closed, allowing the highest profit margins of any sector including private equity!
https://www.ft.com/content/aff47fb4-...a-ebd462f4142b

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Interesting that in good times we want government to keep out of the way, keep tax low and so on. But when hard times hit they need to apply taxes and help out.
Surely we need to apply taxes during the good times to build up surplus and then we have something available to provide support when the hard times arrive.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

The fantasy of the free market applied to Infrastructure assets is well & truly over. Only the shills for corporate greed will continue to sell this deluded fairy tale.

LNG glut raises prospect of lower UK energy bills

The really funny part is that the UK will not get the lower prices, Europe will :)

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

TBH imo windfall taxes for those making obscene profits should always be in place

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

It's worked before and they didn't relocate but if you did it every year they might. Don't forget, we're lagging behind some of Europe on this and Italy has introduced a windfall tax

Also remember in this case it's profits they didn't expect to get, so it shouldn't impact on them too much - just restoring their profits and dividends to what they forecast.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Then they cannot operate as a UK company, selling energy to UK consumers. The answers are straightforward, it just needs the political will & imagination.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Operate in the UK, generate revenue in the UK, pay tax in the UK. Not difficult to grasp. The imperative is compounded by the fact that they are trading in a fake free market of national infrastructure assets.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

They don't set the prices.
Link

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

The elephant in the room is OPEC. And environmentalists are shouting that we don't need elephants any more.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Argue with me as much as you about it they are making billions while we are getting screwed

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

They are making billions. We are getting screwed. But it really isn’t BP’s fault, or Shell, or the rest. There’s a global market for oil and gas that ultimately dictates the prices of products derived from those raw materials. Nomad provided a useful link earlier.

It is actually illegal for a publicly listed company to act in a way detrimental to its shareholders interests, so they can’t adopt a policy of selling everything at cost, or voluntarily diverting dividends to the Treasury. Nevertheless, some of the most senior executives involved have stated publicly, as clearly as they dare, given their primary responsibility to their shareholders, that a windfall tax will not damage them or fundamentally alter their future plans in the way government ministers have suggested.

The problem here is that the Conservative party is hostile to windfall taxes on principle. Principles are not a bad thing per se, but it is getting harder and harder to understand their deontological zeal in the face of the mounting evidence of serious financial hardships in this country. A little pragmatism is required, and also a willingness to just accept they walked into the political trap set for them by every opposition party in the Commons by letting them all propose a windfall tax first. There is nowhere else they can readily acquire sufficient billions to take the edge off this winter’s fuel crisis, without racking up even more national debt. They should swallow their pride and get on with it.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

And there is the essence of the problem. We have a system that has been evolved primarily for benefit of one party. This has many undesirable consequences, including the disproportionate distribution of wealth to the super wealthy at the expense of the majority. Of course, this system has evolved under the governance & direction of those who directly benefit but just because the system is here, does not mean it is right.

Companies should change their legal obligations to advantage more that just shareholders. They should also benefit employees and the communities from where they generate their revenues. Imagine if a company had a legal obligation not to act detrimentally to employees and customers, as well as shareholders.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

I believe that 'acting detrimental to its shareholders' is a very high standard to prove. You pretty much have to be intentionally trying to tank the company for some reason.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Your more activist shareholders might boot you out at the next available opportunity though!

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

So they don't pay tax on their extra profits , wow how do I join that scheme .

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Right, because only members of one "party" have ever started up companies. :erm:

It would likely be a nightmare/disaster, and probably impossible to achieve, since you could almost never staisfy all three objectives. Also, how would you even define "detrimentally".

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Party as in the non-political definition

This just requires imagination & political will to achieve.

For example, a disaster capitalist buys a company to asset strip, laying off employees and impacting communities. A change in the law would not allow this without a balanced plan that compensates the other impacted parties.

Also, a company that trades in the UK, employs people in the UK and generates revenue & profit in the UK should pay tax in the UK.

And companies that trade in the fake free market should be legally compelled to invest, preferentially, in the infrastructure they manage over distributing profit to shareholders.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

No argument with that.

That would be "detremental" to shareholders.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Which is why the law need to change

---------- Post added at 16:09 ---------- Previous post was at 16:06 ----------

So, again, we change the law to balance the equation.

The clue is in the term "fake free market" :)

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

So Mercedes vehicles produced outside the UK should pay UK company tax on vehicles that are sold in the UK. Doesn't work like that anywhere in the world. To begin with, how do they offset the costs of production in those countries? How would Apple offset the cost of producing an iPhone outside the UK, but sold in the UK? How would they offset the R&D costs.

Why should companies be forced to invest in "white elephants" just for the sake of it? The money paid out to shareholders gets invested, one way or another by those shareholders. They also get taxed on that income. They don't just stick it under the mattress, as seems the all too common belief.:rolleyes:

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

The one thing that Chancellor should do is reduce VAT at the pumps, he’s absolutely raking it in at the moment. Petrol and diesel should be 15p less than they are now as well, according to where barrel of oil prices are at, at the moment.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

The big energy companies making huge profits now is OK if (and it's a big IF) they then use that profit to cushion future increases. Maybe the government should hold off on taxing if they get such promises.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Those profits are used to pay dividends to investors many of which are the large pension funds.

Be careful what you wish for. :erm:

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Maybe they should hold off until the day Sue Grey releases her report...

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

That is not how the current free market works. As Chris said, they are obligated to make profits for their shareholders. Competitive pricing that drives the real free market may help here but they requires a, err ... free market :)

---------- Post added at 12:53 ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 ----------

This report tends to disagree with you

Do dividends pay our pensions?

This report also makes the point I made earlier:

Also from: https://www.standard.co.uk/business/...s-b981319.html

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

No surprise; another U-turn is on its way!

https://www.ft.com/content/ddbde592-...2-d6566790403f

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Letting themselves get boxed in on this was a schoolboy error. Nobody - including the bosses of the major oil producers we’re lucky to have within reach of the Treasury - would ever have seriously questioned the wisdom of a windfall tax. I suspect they will present the development of their broader plan, bringing in the wind farms etc, as the reason for not acting sooner.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Energy price cap to rise to £2800 in October.

LINK

This should be restricted to the price of the actual fuel and NOT standing charges which customers cannot influence.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Agreed. That would require a more competent regulator and government than we have at present.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Point of information (might be stating the "bleeding obvious", but not seen it mentioned before in the thread) - the Price Cap figure is for "average" usage; if you use more than average, your bill will exceed the Price Cap*.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/17830...rice-cap-rise/

*came to my attention when my energy supplier (Shell Energy) sent me a forecast last week for next year, as my Fixed Rate finishes early July - my annual bill will rise from around £1,400 to £2,500**

**probably around £3,500, with the latest September rise.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Yep, mine is at least £2800 already. :(

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Estimated 42% rise this Oct then forecast no rise Jan then April possibly a small drop to factor in the current drop in wholesale (Info from Martin Lewis last night )

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

There should be some support announced tomorrow by the Treasury.
https://twitter.com/AnushkaAsthana/s...75065414397952

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

I would not be surprised if it ends up being another UC uplift basically screwing anyone on legacy benefits like myself who will end up not getting it. They can not really suddenly manage to do it after saying the could not at the start of Covid

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

I hope the news tomorrow is as positive as possible for you.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

or anyone not on benefits ...

Just becasue someone doesnt get "benefits" doesnt mean they are somehow rich.

Aside from which someone in a household can be on benefits, but unless the energy bills are in their name, it doesnt count.

The Council tax rebate seemed an easy way to go about it, or remove VAT on Energy (or a rebate on your bill).

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Yeah but a lot of the poorest in the country claim UC as it now covers benefits such as Child Benefit and Tax Credits so even those on over 20K can get it

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

From The Times
- £200 energy loan to be scrapped and replaced with a grant funded by a windfall tax on energy companies
- Grant could be higher than £200, possibly as much as £400
- Above is part of a package of measures to help the most vulnerable households.

https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1529558975238356998

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

well that would work

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

£400 will help a little but Prepayment customers saw an increase of £708 from £1,309 to £2,017 in April and will rise again to over £2,790 this October. That's a rise of nearly £1500 within a year. Also, with no prospect of this coming down anytime soon.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

Can't help thinking that the thread title is now a misnomer.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

As if by magic … ;)

---------- Post added at 12:44 ---------- Previous post was at 12:43 ----------

So Rishi is out splashing the cash. Headlines so far are a windfall tax on oil and gas producers will pay for a £650 grant to less well off households, and a £400 fuel bill rebate for everyone - this £400 is instead of the £200 loan previously announced.

---------- Post added at 12:50 ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 ----------

… plus a one-off Disability living allowance uplift of £150

---------- Post added at 12:51 ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 ----------

So it looks like everyone gets £400, less well off people get £1,150, and if you’re less well off and on DLA you get £1,300, which I think might be more-or-less the entire spike in the energy price cap compared to where it would typically be.

Re: The energy crisis
 

BREAKING: UK unveils £15 billion support package for consumers as inflation soars, partly funded by windfall tax on energy sector - AFP News Agency

Re: The energy crisis
 

Well for some it will totally offset the increase in October so that is great and the poorest are being looked after.

There is a £150 disability cost of living payment

I should get that but tbh I hope I do not get the £650 as I can live without it and would want it to go to someone worse off

Did they specifically call it that? cuz DLA does not exist any more?

Re: The energy crisis
 

It's called the Disability Cost of Living Payment
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...et-26-may-2022

Re: The energy crisis
 

I’m just being old fashioned and out of touch. ;)

Re: The energy crisis
 

It's a shame it took the Sue Gray Report to make the government act on the energy crisis, but I'm pleased they have done so.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

It's a step, and this is going to sound like whining, but i can't help but think that not everyone needs the £400 rebate, I'd rather those earning say over 100k per year were given no rebate whatsoever, the money that they would of received could be given to help others, more.

Re: Energy companies collapse
 

True, however in an emergency there’s no time to develop means testing procedures, which would come with a cost of their own also. I think the £400 off the bill will also go some way towards helping those who may be property rich but cash poor (i.e. they have a large house, too high up the council tax band to get the larger grant, but the value of the house doesn't accurately reflect their income). The price shock is also so large that even relatively well off people may have short-term problems budgeting around it. The last thing he will want a year or two down the line is rising mortgage defaults and repossessions.

He seems to have been pretty careful to lump most of it into mechanisms which have at least some connection to likely need.

Re: The energy crisis
 

My issue with the £400 is idiots will pull it from their accounts and spend it and then complain they can not pay their bills. I wonder how many have spent the £150 council tax rebate instead of applying it to their energy accounts (talking about those on low income here). I would like to see it none withdrawable

One thing I can not see them say anything about is the Warm Home Discount. I wonder if that will still be available on top of the £400