Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Should that read Labour's Kerfuffle?;)

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Or Labour’s lambasting? There are any number of ways to describe the utter mess Labour is in after last night. Hartlepool wasn’t just a loss, it was an absolute evisceration.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Interesting comment in the Times today.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/h...tion-cddx0m9z5 The Conservatives have also gained Northumberland County Council and Dudley County Council from NOC.

---------- Post added at 12:39 ---------- Previous post was at 11:59 ----------

I thought this comment on Twitter was quite apposite.

And a good reply

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

It's just Labour that has had it's day. They tried going further to the Left and failed, they tried to bring it back to the centre and are failing.

The Tories are winning in the exLabour heartlands because they're not talking politics, they're talking economy, regeneration and Labour are talking curtains.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

I’ve been pondering the extent to which UKIP/Brexit Party has acted as a sort of gateway drug for traditional Labour voters. Once the Labour voting habit is broken, and the reason for the Brexit vote is dealt with, many of them have perhaps taken a pragmatic look at which party best aligns with their views in a way that would have been difficult just 10 years ago.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Yet going further to the left appears more popular than wallowing in the centre. However rather than stay in and water it down Blairite after Blairite undermined the message and week after week the Observer got someone to write about anti-Semitism.

Biden won because he managed to hold together the left and the centre. And wasn't Trump. Labour have made no effort to coalesce around some point left of centre and further left than a Blairite position.

You are right though in that they don't have a message for their former voters. We are only seeing now in England what has happened in Glasgow and Central Scotland over the past ten years.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Very sage, I think their failure to respond to their decline in Scotland has indeed just spread throughout England,

One option out of it is to somehow double down on of the woke, youth, metropolitan left and see if they can reinvent themselves more along a newer Green/Lib-dem path, but they've lost the working class.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Well if the Hartlepool result wasn't a bad enough result for Labour, it appears I've now got a new Conservative councillor.

Wakefield East is one of those council wards where you usually wonder why the other parties even bother, well yesterday things changed. At the last election in 2019 it was a poor showing for Labour winning with only 56.9% of the votes when normally it's well over 60%. Yesterday the Labour candidate managed only 44.5% losing by 48 votes. The remaining 2 Labour councillors in the ward are probably worrying what the future holds for them.

I don't know what the answer is but I know what it isn't and that is letting this country drift in to a one party state (extreme words - but you know what I mean!). Keir comes across as a nice honest chap with good intentions, which is a plus, but his get up and go seems to have got up and gone and he's just got nothing about him. As competence doesn't seem to be a prerequisite for the top job any more, Labour need to find someone who appeals to the masses and makes them laugh and is brazen enough to not feel they're suffering from imposter syndrome.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Sir Keir's policy was to have few policies and to focus on the government's handling of the pandemic. Unfortunately for him, after a poor start, the government delivered on solving the pandemic crisis and he didn't have much of a leg to stand on.

His only consolation must be that incumbent parties in the three British nations have performed well, perhaps reflecting the public's satisfaction with the vaccines roll-out even if this success is due more to Kate Bingham's team than anything in the devolved nations.

Overall, I still think "Mind the values gap" nails it - the average British voter is left of centre economically and right of centre socially and the Conservative Party under Boris Johnson is successfully occupying this territory.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

You complain about Wakefield East usually being "one of those council wards where you usually wonder why the other parties even bother" and now changing, but then complain about a possible "one-party state. :confused: So for you, a "one-party state" is perfectly ok, as long as it's a party you support.:rolleyes: You were happy with your local council constantly being ruled by a particular party, and are now unhappy at any suggestion that may no longer be the case.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

I think you’re extrapolating meaning from his post that isn’t there.

One can reasonably hold up a seat (in Parliament or council) as one of those places we wonder why the opposition even bother. We all know these “safe” seats exist - there’s no purpose in denying they do. Maybe the media froth about them too much but they undoubtedly exist.

Drifting to a “one party” state is unhealthy regardless of the party. Or is that just Scotland....

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

You couldn't be further from the mark :rolleyes: :rolleyes:. I don't recall saying if I approved of the Labour monopoly or not in our ward :confused:, as is the case in many local council wards the individual councillors are pretty ineffective and I can't see that changing with the new mix of political parties 'representing' the area. I certainly didn't say I was happy with my local council constantly being ruled by one party. One party constantly being in control in my opinion will only lead to laziness and complacency and on a national level would be nothing but bad :nono:.

I will say however, that I DO TAKE EXCEPTION with being told what does and doesn't make me happy and what I do and don't like :mad:,

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

You said "I don't know what the answer is but I know what it isn't and that is letting this country drift in to a one party state". Answer to what? Labour losing seats. Drifting implies a change, a change from Labour winning seats to Labour losing them. So from your own post, you are unhappy with Labour losing seats, and want an answer to that "problem". For the "problem" to go away would mean Labour winning seats. Asking "I don't know how Labour think they are going to stop losing seats", might be considered not to be taking sides.

If you consider that your local council is lazy and complacent, then shouldn't you be welcoming Labour losing council seats, although it won't make any difference.
Wakefield Express

If I've got things right, then before the vote, Labour already had a majority with 33 seats. They couldn't be voted out.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Well that's assumption for you :rolleyes:. The 'I don't know what the answer is' comment was referring to the thread's (new) title. I don't know what the answer is to stop the issues Labour are having but I do know carry on as they are doing isn't. I'm really not that bothered either way who wins or loses because with the political mediocrity we have I've not felt in my adult lifetime that there's been a government that has completely represented my views.

I don't necessarily think our local council is lazy or complacent - that's just you telling me what I think again. At the moment we have a system where central government can and does step in when a local authority is deemed to be failing. Would they do it to a local council controlled by the same party as the government? Maybe we'll find out the way we're going.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Must be nice to live in a town where the council does change hands from time to time. It must keep local politicians on their toes. Never happened in Gosport since it’s inception as a political ward.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

And Labour hold Wakefield has just come up on the ticker screen on Sky news. The most surprising results are the Conservative gain in the Crofton, Ryhill & Walton ward (mining villages back in the day) and the Liberal Democrat gain in the Knottingley ward (glass manufacturing and the last deep coal mine in the UK).

Was just chatting to the chap next door while getting the bin in and he said the problem Labour have got is Keir is too posh and like Tony Blair is "fake Labour". So there you have it, 100% of the people I surveyed feel Keir is too posh to lead Labour ;).

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

I am hoping we have a change here in Warrington, The Labour council are on course to hit 1.3 million in the red. Bankruptcy looms.

They have refused to sign off the books for the last 3 years which would then give the public an idea as to why and where the debt is. However they are quoting commercial confidentiality because of some of their investments in commercial companies.

Same old Labour spend spend spend and then hope someone else fixes there problem

https://www.warringtonguardian.co.uk...watering-debt/

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

That sentiment reinforces what someone posted on Twitter yesterday…

https://twitter.com/francesweetman/s...733701120?s=21

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...7&d=1620467180

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

There’s only person (or party) responsible the reputation they get and managing it. That’s themselves.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

I'm sure our billionaire owned media have nothing to do with it.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Until the 2008 Financial Crash, Labour had kept the National Debt as a % of GDP lower than the last three years of the previous Conservative Government.

Not a big fan of Blair/Brown, but facts are facts…

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...8&d=1620478713

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

I think the Blair years were good, I voted for him both times. It was his sycophantic boot licking of GWB boots that defined his legacy.

Brown was the PM nobody asked for or wanted, and was the first example in my memory of the Government really taking the piss with the electorate. We’ll appoint a PM instead of you electing him, and the electorate showed what they thought of that.

The UK electorate always get it right.

In regards to Labours reputation, it was well earned before B&B, the fact the crash happened on their watch, even if not totally their fault, it happened on their watch and that just compounded the narrative.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Kier charmer takes full responsibility for election disaster and sacks Angela Rayner.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...lection-latest


Left-wing writer Owen Jones commented: “Keir Starmer and his team are trying to scapegoat Angela Rayner for Labour’s disaster.

“Trying to pin the blame on a working class women for their lack of vision or strategy, their lack of answers to the country’s problems. The absolute pits.”

He later added: “Keir Starmer is proving to be the worst of all worlds – unprincipled and unelectable.

“It’s time for Labour MPs to have a very long think.”

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Agree with you on lot of your points, but it’s relevant that in the last 50 years, the Conservatives have been in power 35 of those, and for 10 of the 15 years years Labour were in power, Labour were fiscally reasonably sound - so the narrative, consistently repeated, only covers 10% of the last 50 years…

If you look at the debt over the last 50 years, Conservative Governments have racked up a lot more of it than Labour - if you want to hold Labour responsible for the debt accrued for the last two years of their reign in the last 50 years, you also have to hold Conservatives responsible for the current debt, as "it happened on their watch"…

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

I do/ will hold the Tories accountable for the debt they are accumulating during this pandemic and it will be up them to grow the economy to balance out the debt mountain they have made. This will be the test.

The reason why Labour were lambasted was the debt they had accumulated just before a crash, with the economy shrinking. No crash, no problem. It was just unfortunate for them they were left holding the baby when the music stopped.

The Tories have at least another 3 years, and judging by how the voting went, another 8 years most likely, in power to grow the economy. If after then we have another major recession and we have not got the spending/ debt under control, the Tories would not have their reputation to rely on.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

I don't believe in their reputation for managing the economy any more than I believe in labour's ineptitude with it, it ticks along without any real input from them aside from some ideological posturing on the peripheries

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

What a ridiculous assertion, Hugh. Labour was not fiscally sound at all, had Corbyn come to power, UK would be a utopian failure on epic proportions, a socialist woke and failing leftist Country.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

A bit like Manchester then? ;)

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

or even Liebour?

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Given the track record of our Prime Minister on honesty, that title may have been taken.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

I was refering to the Governments in power over the last 50 years - I am/was not a Corbyn fan.

We were discussing the previous/current Governments.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Starmer's decision to start a civil war seems even more stupid given the results of the last two days.

Labour have still down very badly but they've had small victories in winning the London Mayorality again along with Manchester by an increase in the majority and the West Midlands. Additionally, they're doing better in the south even picking up seats in places like Tunbridge Wells and Witney.

The Tories are of course going to change how Mayors are elected: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/mayo...m-b924534.html so that's it 'first past the post' rather than having his run off system because in those cases Labour still would have won.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

GLC all over again…

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

I don't think it's fair the Tories can simply change the voting system people use without asking them. They think the Greens/Liberals/Labour will split the left vote so they can get in with less than 50% but it's so cynical.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Sadly just more corruption. This can be evidenced by the fact that there is no proposal to elect members of the London Assembly in the same way. Could this be because first past the post would reduce the number of Conservative seats?

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Just re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

I think an issue in London was that there were so many candidates that the paper was split over 2 pages and large number of people voted first choice twice invalidating the paper.
In this country at least that sort of vote tends to favour left of centre where there is more choice without going extreme. We only have one right wing party that isn't tending towards Nazi-ism. (May be minor parties someplaces)

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Can the Tories do another Hartlepool?

The results at the 2019 election were:

Labour, Tracy Brabin – 22,594, 42.7 per cent Conservative, Mark Brooks – 19,069, 36.0 per cent Heavy Woollen District Independents, Paul Halloran – 6,432 12.2 per cent Liberal Democrats, John Lawson – 2,462, 4.7 per cent Brexit Party, Clive Minihan – 1,678, 3.2 per cent Green, Ty Akram – 692, 1.3 per cent.

Bookies odds are:

Conservatives - 1/4 Labour - 3/1 Heavy Woolen District - 33/1 Greens - 100/1 Lib Dems - 100/1 Northern Independence Party - 200/1

Figures from National World

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

You think it could be closer. There isn't as big a Brexit vote (although the Heavy Woollen District Independents were independent UKIP people) to move over to the Tories as there was in Hartlepool. Labour will probably try to time the by-election not to coincidence with another loosening of restrictions as well.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

If they did, it would be a bigger shock than Hartlepool, I don't think they will.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Not sure it would be a bigger shock. The Tories have won there before.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Liz Peacock was MP there for 14 years (83-97).

Proper Yorkshire lass - nice person, always bought a round; we agreed on more than we disagreed on, and she was always willing to listen, even if she didn't agree with you.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

It’s a different place than it was 24 years ago.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Whatever the result, it will be a surprise to someone. :)

Labour got destroyed the other day, Cons took over everything around here.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

One does wonder what Labour actually stands for apart from criticising interioir decor.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Once again, trotting out CCHQ lines - they weren't criticising interior decor, they were highlighting possible corruption by money being given in an underhand, non-traceable way which was against the rules.

Big difference...

btw, I agree with the survey - people don't know what Labour stand for, because I'm not sure they do. Their base from the 50s-90s has disappeared (as most of the industries they worked in have disappeared/shrunk), and they haven't come up with a cohesive approach which attracts a wider base of voters (like Blair did, for all his faults).

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

You mean like when over £650,000 was donated illegally to Labour via 3rd parties, and those high up in the party(eg Gordon Brown) seem to have known about it because they refused donations from those 3rd parties? How many criminal prosecutions were there? Zero. Other examples exist.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Welcome back, Mr Whataboutism - it's been a while...

All cases are bad, and should be investigated, and if found guilty, punished.

Difference in the cases being that Brown vetoed the donations, Boris went looking for them.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

But Labour weren't punished for actions that were admitted. Why? As I said other examples exist, and have been strangely ignored.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

They should have been punished if they broke the rules.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

My town has 13 councils, 12 switched to Conservative, mine was one only one to remain Liebour.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

I'm sure if you read the appropriate articles about them, it will explain why they went unpunished.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and corruption should not be green-lighted just because it's the "right side" that's doing it.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

The poll for PM isn't going in Sir Keir's favour
https://news.sky.com/story/starmer-s...-quit-12307527

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Those seem to favour him…

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Being a better leader than Corbyn is hardly a resounding accolade.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Are you suggesting that a poll of 2,004 adults in the UK, that is a story on one of the leading news media sites, is nothing more than a 'clickbait' article that actually shows nothing at all?

If so I'd agree, open to more spin than an Australian bowler :D

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Wording corrected, thanks for highlighting. :tu:

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

They do seem very good at picking bad leaders. :erm:

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Limited gene pool to fish in ;)

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

And bottom trawling by all accounts. :D

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Amazing when you see what they are up against.;)

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Boris is quite liked so simply attacking him personaly is maybe not a good strategy. What the opposition need to do is not just attack the government but propose a better way. Some graciousness also helps, congratulate on successes even where you think there is a better way.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

If my memory serves me well, all the opposition have done in the past years is argue, and not come up with better ideas ;)

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

They've come up with some better ideas and we re ahead of the curve in wanting the Christmas opening-up cancelled which the government climbed down on And doubtless in other areas too.
But just not being the Conservative Party doesn't seem to work. They do need to offer something different.

The Green Party is munching away at the Conservative vote in the SE and Labour votes in some metropolitan areas like Bristol so the Conservative Party is responding with greener policies (like the end of gas boilers) so that's another challenge for Labour as well.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

God help us if the Greens ever get into power!

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Or part of a rabble alliance.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

I 100% agree.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

In these days of gender awareness, I don't think you're allowed to refer to God as 'He' anymore ;)

Having said that, I don't actually think anyone has sent the form asking for a preferred title :D

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Only if you belive that carp. Before anyone comments, yes I know I used that title but doesn't mean I believe in it. As an expletive, it works.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

You can call it /him/her what you want as long as you put a fiver on the plate when you go to church on Sunday;)

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

I've never been asked for anything on the plate at the Church Inn on a Sunday, just to pay for my drinks and/or meal.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

It's probably better music, bigger portions, and still has the lead on it's roof too ;)

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

click on the picture

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

That would be an ecumenical matter for Chris to answer. ;)

Which reminds me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuW8TaAlBfg :D

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Starmer reveals exactly why he sacked Angies bloke


The Opposition leader spent this afternoon trying to dig himself out of a hole after outrage at his decision to axe his shadow transport minister. He insisted he was left with no choice but to get rid of the Ilford South MP after he made up party policy "on the hoof".



What's he supposed to do when Starmer has no policies on anything


https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...cy-trade-union

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

:D

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer found to have breached MPs' code of conduct - commissioner


https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...tary-standards


Looks like he's inadvertently flicked the v at the rules.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

'Ms Stone said the eight breaches "were minor and/or inadvertent", and "there was no attempt to mislead".'

'Among the interests declared late by Sir Keir was an £18,450 advance from publisher HarperCollins in April for a book he is writing.

He has pledged to donate the sum, which was declared a day late, to charitable causes while royalties for two legal books were also delayed in being registered.'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62431183

So to answer your original statement, hardly flicking the V's is it? But then you knew that already didn't you? You little tinker ;)

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Come on now, pretending rule breaking is just ok just because it’s the party you support. :dozey:

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Very magnanimous of him to donate to charity now that he has been caught breaking the code 8 times

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

I didn't say it was OK, i said he was not sticking up the V's up.

I'm also not a labour party supporter, not sure where you get that from. I've always been a floating voter.

---------- Post added at 08:48 ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 ----------

Are you suggesting he should resign?

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

8 breaches of the rules is taking the piss.

---------- Post added at 08:51 ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 ----------

8 times if he sticks to his own rules, which he doesn't, ever.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Perhaps he’s trying to break Johnson’s record?

https://www.politicshome.com/news/ar...s-rules-breach

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Had no idea it was a competition to see who can take the piss the most times.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

His own rules? Do you mean that one where he said he would resign if he was issued a FPN ? I don't see that here do you?

I have no love whatsoever for KS but as the standards commissioner says these are inadvertent.

You're just being your usual WUM aren't you? ;)

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

i try to hold Sir takes the pissalot to parliamentary standards and now I'm a WUM:shrug:

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Hasn't he already been held to those standards ?

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

No he's been let off again.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D


Hope you're enjoying Edinburgh !!

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Not really noticed his absence.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

It seems Labour's package will be announced Monday now. Hopefully, it does something and puts pressure on the Government to do more. Liz Truss really doesn't seem keen.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

If it takes months for Sir Keir to months to come up with a hypothetical plan I dread to think how long his indecisiveness would last at the wheel.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Labour plans can usually be summed up as "beg, borrow, or steal".

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Sounds like the privatised energy firms.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

A total profit of £35 per customer to be given back. What a difference that will make.:rolleyes:
Link

Figure is in chart in the article.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Bit bigger than that: https://www.theguardian.com/business...-energy-prices

Freeze the cap (presumably underwriting the cost or doing as Brown said and temporarily renationalise the service providers).

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

How much bigger? Can't see it. So it's borrow and steal.

The £35 is from Ofgem, I gave the link.

Re: Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle
 

Freeze the cap so that the price doesn't go up in October. So it'll be about £1,300 or something per household.