Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Well done hungary.These people showed their true colours by rioting when they did not get their way.Plenty of police injuries caused by these imposters.Barbarians at the gates indeed.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

If only a fraction of a percent of these "refugees" are ISIS then there are already hundreds of mad Jihadi's loose on the continent and no doubt soon to arrive here if not already and we're sodding about with drones over Syria?

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Oh dear.

Hungary building a fence to close off border with Croatia at some points, and another along their border with Romania, to go alongside the fence between them and Serbia.

Slovenia to establish 'temporary' border controls between themselves and Hungary.

Austria have stepped up border checks.

Bulgaria have sent troops to their Turkish border.

This all has an air of inevitability about it.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

To what extent there is terrorist infiltration within the ranks of the migrants is never going to be known and that is a big problem. Given how much effort we make to screen people coming in via the traditional routes, I find it bizarre that so many unknown people can just be allowed in on the simple untested basis that they're refugees. That, however, has been the case for years so it's nothing new but it does demonstrate the shambolic nature of the EU's approach to security.

What's equally worrying and just as obvious is the way in which some of the migrants choose to behave when they don't get their way. Make no mistake I have great sympathy for the plight of the genuine but amongst them there are all sorts of people ranging from economic migrants to people with extremely dubious histories who we could well do without. We have to do what we can to separate these from the genuine refugees who need our help, albeit IMHO, help closer to home because we can't take them all in and must be diligent in removing those who have no right to entry. The EU has been a soft touch and more recently the bizarre actions of Germany in particular are responsible for drawing economic migrants into the EU and only now do they appear to be regretting what they've done.

I think any policy which allows large numbers of primarily young men into the EU from many countries around the globe is very dangerous. We have experience in London of young men from various nations who've been allowed to come here and then been left to get on with it with little support or hope. Consequently a good number have failed to find jobs and found themselves involved in crime and gangs, often in conflict with rival migrant groups ironically. Do we really need more crime and gangs when the activities of our indigenous population already stretches the legal and law enforcement services in particular? Do we really need more social unrest added to that we already suffer?

What's being seen in Hungary and in Calais is what happens when large numbers of young men are allowed to do what they want in order to get what they want. Try to turn them back and they eventually use even more force and/or take even more extreme measures to get what they want. It's clear they're not interested in compromise, they want to go to Germany or they want to come to the UK because they believe that's what's best for them. No amount of reasoning from EU cloud cuckoo land HQ about spreading the burden will change that and persuade such people to go quietly to/settle in places they don't want to be.

We are now seeing the consequences of raising false hopes and once people have become desperate, for whatever reason, trying to control what they do and where they go becomes a massive problem. IMHO we need to shut the gates and send that message out loud and clear. We need to focus our efforts and aid much closer to the problem areas and convince those on the move that our help will be provided in that way and nothing will be gained by traipsing across Europe trying to get in. Part of the message needs to be robust enforcement and the removal of those found to be illegal. We need to do much more to prove to would be economic migrants that they will not be allowed to bully their way into Europe and then be able to exploit the system to remain.

None of this is going to be easy and it will require some unpleasant choices to be made but that's the stark reality IMHO because if we continue on this chaotic path all that's going to happen is the problem will grow ever more serious. Whilst we're preoccupied with trying to keep out/remove vast numbers of economic migrants and other illegals, we're not going to be so able to help the genuine refugees to stay safe whilst they await the time when they can go back home and let's make no mistake, that should be the ultimate aim. We cannot accept all the world's needy and vulnerable and the only real question is at what point do we have to say enough is enough? If we fail to grasp the nettle all that will happen is our own way of life will increasingly suffer and we'll gradually see growing social unrest as an inevitable consequence.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Common currency, common borders, common asylum policy ... The EU works really well, until it doesn't.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Excellent post!

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Add that the refusal of the Eurocrats to accept they might be wrong their ideas flawed and a rapid change of policy required. They're like highly paid lemmings really, 'secure' in their combined blindness of reality as they head towards the edge of the precipice. Frankly, I wouldn't give a toss about their fate if ours weren't so closely bound to theirs. These faceless suits are in denial about what is a massive issue and all the time they have yet more meetings about meetings the pressure is growing. I fear something big is going to give and have no doubt they'll still be in denial after it all kicks off.

I'd like to be able to say we're victims of the law of unintended consequences but IMHO fatally flawed EU policy, structure and decision making has made this and other crises like it inevitable.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

How's inviting them to come through working out for you, Croatia?

Seemed a good idea at the time I guess.

The above story has been updated since I copy/pasted the link.

From Twitter:

Also:

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/sta...14250824679424

https://twitter.com/millerC4/status/644516880405917696

Sounds like Croatia is doing the best it can, and it's apparently not good enough for the refugees / migrants.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34283152

I think his country will soon be a lot fuller.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34286432

It seems few of these people want to be fingerprinted and registered anywhere other than where they choose. Quite frankly that cannot be allowed to continue.
Wasn't long ago that the Prime Minister of Croatia was as welcoming as Bob Geldof...

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Full?!? He wants to come and take a look at the UK to see what full feels like.:mad:

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Given what happened to Germany as a result of Merkel's ill judged invitation, it does make you wonder what the Croatian PM was thinking when he offered to help migrants on their way. :confused:

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Croatia full? They kicked out over 250,000 Serbs. Must be empty homes there.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34291648

I can't see anyone else wanting to accept them for very long if at all, so how does he propose to move them on?

What we have now is an increasingly frustrated, angry and desperate mass of people being passed from pillar to post and sooner or later I believe things will erupt into serious violence.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Seems like they're *choosing* to be passed around as they don't seem keen to be processed at these particular Countries. Not good enough for them? Makes them seem less like 'refugees' more like hedging their bets. It won't be long until the initial 'hug a refugee' from the handwringers will evaporate.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

So in the enlightened future where the UK says "sod off" to anyone who wants to come here (unless they are rich) and mocks the EU for trying (badly) to help the poor devils who are trying to escape Assad's barrel bombs and ISIS's Nazi thugs, what should these miserable people do?

What would *you* do in their position?

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I'd stop hedging my bets and trying to cross 10+ other countries & 100's if not 1,000's of extra miles to get to the one *I wanted to go to for a start. Then perhaps I'd stop looking like an opportunist and more like the 'refugee' I'm supposed to be trying to be.
Yes, that'd be a good start,.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Don't worry, the EU will sport it out in their typically prompt and decisive manner...
:rolleyes:

If I was a refugee maybe I'd feel compelled to respect the rules of the countries I was requiring help and support from or I'd expect my presence to be greatly resented.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I wouldn't leave my wife and children back home as I tried to 'escape to safety' and then call them over (like a lot of the 'refugees' on the BBC are saying) because if I was a genuine refugee I would take my wife and children with me because it is too dangerous to leave them back home.
(just speaking from a position of every single refugee with a family in WW2....like my family were)

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

So where should they go? You have said where they shouldn't try and go to .. What is your 'refugee' supposed to do? I am not sure risking lives in inflatable boats equates to being an opportunist.

---------- Post added at 00:14 ---------- Previous post was at 00:12 ----------

while the UK watches and mocks their attempts to help ..

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

The first safe country available. Any other would be a choice and therefore they would not be 'desperate' or 'in need'.

We certainly have a moral responsibility to aid others however a lot of this feels like when someone complains about being unemployed and eager to work but turns down a job because they 'don't like the idea of night shifts' or say "I don't fancy all that walking/lifting/carrying just for minimum wage".

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I dunno, Oh wait, how about the first safe country they find themselves in, or even the second, hell let's say no #3.
No lets not, lets travel another 1,000 miles & go through another 5 countries like a Grand Tour until we find one we 'like'
Alternatively we could go on a nice Cruise to exotic far off places, then wonder why our Cruise ship (actually rubber dinghy) falls apart when a wave hits it, and because cruising is so popular, the tour operator overbooked a tad so the ship is really really really full.

Maybe it's time you & your ilk realised wringing your hands and bleating a lot isn't really helping, and it's making things worse. Do you seriously think Merkel helped things by making a grand proclamation?
You do know even these poor refugees all have mobile phones, sat nav & social media?
Did you not wonder why the flow of migrants - sorry REFUGEES became a flood?

The ONLY sensible non hysterical media driven thing I've seen ANY Country do to date is the UK.

You know why? because when they've finished allegedly 'mocking' them :rolleyes:

They've come up with a suggestion both practical & humane - oh it also cuts off the people smugglers off at the knees.

Wow how did they achieve his mighty feat?

So take your emotive BS & Media driven drivel about mocking with you & do one, you're clearly deluded. some of us live in the real world, I think you're better off staying in Fairyland.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I think what some people here are deliberately avoiding is reality. The reality which comes from large numbers of desperate people, a proportion of whom will pose problems to our society in one way or another whether that be terrorism, criminality, a refusal to integrate or whatever. It's all very well conjuring up images of vulnerable and genuine refugees but don't use those to try to mask the rest and the very serious problems they potentially pose for our society. Right now. we are seeing the start of serious social disorder where these large numbers of migrants are heading. Those still on the move and refusing to be processed in the safe countries they've passed through have decided what they want and are hell bent on getting it to the extent that they will force their way across borders and confront those whose job it is to stop them. I'm sorry but IMHO no migrant has the right to do that, including refugees. However deserving a refugee may be, that status doesn't confer on them the right to choose which rules they obey and which they don't once they've reached safety. The danger we face here is that those migrants whose intentions aren't positive are mingling freely with large numbers desperate and vulnerable people who are likely to be susceptible to all manner of misinformation and malicious behaviour including, even, forms of radicalisation, coercion and abuse. I can't imagine a more fertile feeding ground for those who wish to destroy our way of life and for that reason we have to get to grips with what's going on before it's too late, if we're not already past that point. We can all have sympathy for the genuine refugees try to help on a personal and governmental level but we cannot allow migrants to 'invade' the EU and that is effectively what's happening. What we need to do is ensure the genuine refugees have safe places to go as close to their homelands as possible and make it known that those who flout the rules will be classed and treated as economic migrants and never be allowed to remain.

I'm still waiting for anyone from the 'let them in regardless' brigade to answer the question at what point can we take no more and how do we then stop others from following? Germany is proof of what happens when you open flood gates, it's easy - closing them again isn't!

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

What utter crap

So what if a refugee has a mobile phone ? a lot of these people are highly trained abd highly skilled people such as surgeons and engineers who's homes and environments have been destroyed by the current troubles

Current troubles it should be said that in certain countries we had a systematic part to play by attempting and in some circumstances succeeded in destabilisng the regimes (let's glaze over the fact that war for regime change is in fact a crime)

Let's put ourselves in a refugees place for a moment lets put ourselves in a camp with poor sanitation high risk of disease no actual guarantees of being able to claim due to the pathetic quantity the government has offered 20000 over the rest of the parliamentary term or then let's look at the next option risking potentially their and their families lives to try to make a decent future for themselves in countries with economic growth

What would you do? Stay in a squalid camp and hope for salvation. or attempt to get yourself and your family to a place of potential prosperity?

You're the one who is a) quite clearly deluded and b) an utter fool

However the biggest fools are the politicians as Johnny Rotten said on CNN how on earth did they not see this was coming ?

And before you say anything I've put my money where my mouth is and myself and my fiancée have registered to take a refugee family into our homes when and as needed.

I'll backup my moral stance with action, where's yours ? Or will you just bitch like a little girl on a message board ? Plenty of demonstrations you could go on?

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I kinda get the feeling you read my post with your fingers in your ears singing loudly tra la la...

The point you're missing entirely is the fact these people are tromping across ALL of Europe to get to the promised land, you haven't addressed that, in fact you're pretty much making out all europe bar the North is a dangerous barren, unwelcoming place. - god knows where your squalid camp comes from, it seems upwards of 1/4 million people are on the move, and whilst they go through Country after Country rejecting all, you'll have to accept that those of us with a bit of grey matter between our ears might not be so understanding as you.

My stance isn't moral or immoral, it's sensible, your's is emotive & based on complete bs

I'll say it again. The UK response of a measured, planned, controlled acceptance of Refugees far far out trumps the other Countries offer of Come on down! - then a week or so later, Oh actually we're full now, go away.

You have a great day now playing Happy (migrant) Families.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Neither, you get yourself to the nearest safe country.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I don't think the world would agree that 20,000 refugees over 4 years is in any way a measured response from the world's 4th wealthiest nation.

Saying that, you are missing the point: the UK should be helping more, much more but not in the way the right wing are bleating about i.e. taking in people into the UK. What should be happening, and Cameron should be leading on this, is to establish:

- set-up of safe havens inside Syria and Iraq backed up by ground troops if necessary
- investment in permament refugee camps in neighbouring countries, run by the UNHR and funded by the US, UK, EU, etc
- support of neighbouring countries e.g. Lebanon, Turkey, etc in they ability to accomodate the refugees
- deployment of Nato troops to Turkey to control the flow of people, materiel and money to ISIS
- working with Russia to defeat ISIS and the Islamist rebels, constrain Assad in his killing of civilians and then later aim to remove Assad from power if possible

Doing this is in the UK's national interest and will seek to cure the cause of the problem and not the symptoms.

Cameron and the West are watching Rome burn .. they are trying to handle the fallout from a conflict they are not attempting to control. At some point, the Middle East will get to a point where it will not be containable ..

Imagine if ISIS defeats Assad and whose border will they then be knocking on? Israel ... Hamas on one side, ISIS on the other. That is not going to play out well ..

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

They are helping, now we see something worthwhile being done with our Foreign Aid money, finally something to get behind that's tangible. Now back to Fairyland with you.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Do you want the best for your family or do you just make do?

---------- Post added at 13:46 ---------- Previous post was at 13:45 ----------


I'll deal with your nonsense bollocks when I have my laptop in front of me rather than typing on my phone

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

If you were unfortunate to be in an empty lifeboat surrounded by desperate people floundering in the cruel sea, at some point you'd have to stop taking people on board. Fact! The only question is at what point do you stop and how do you prevent people continuing to scramble on board until everyone goes down. It's an unpalatable analogy but undeniable. We're not going to sink or starve under the weight of migrants but we will find that if the numbers continue to grow (and there's no reason why they wouldn't given poverty and turmoil around the globe) we will reach the tipping point at which we will have irreversible and increasing social tensions and unrest across Europe and especially in areas like the Balkans. Who knows where that will lead. Something has to be done before it's too late and anyone who can't see that is in denial. It wasn't that long ago that we were all horrified by widespread rioting by our very own disaffected youth who already believe they're lives are impossible and prospects non-existent, despite being far better off than these migrants. Expect more of the same and far worse if this carries on.

What would you do if a desperate beggar arrived on your doorstep, asked for help and having decided that a loaf of bread and a few quid wasn't quite enough, forced his way into your house, helped himself to a bath and bed, then refused to leave. Would his plight and the reasons for it really stop you wanting to throw him out?

---------- Post added at 13:49 ---------- Previous post was at 13:48 ----------

IIRC the UK has given more aid than the rest of the EU combined and yes we should redirect more of our huge aid budget to this cause.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I want the best of course but what I want and what I need aren't necessarily the same thing. Nobody needs "the best" to survive, they just need the essentials. If someone passes on the latter to get the former then they making a choice, simple as that.

We should not accept "refugees" who choose to come here, only those who have no other option. On this basis nobody has yet need able to explain to me what sort of crisis is occurring in France that means lives are in danger and forces people to get past Calais.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

So because of our geographic location we should not do our fair share ?

Please don't tell me you think 20000 over 5 years is reasonable we're almost as bad as the U.S.

And for those who were complaining about gulf states not assisting I'm just going to let you read this

https://www.saudiembassy.net/press-r...s09111501.aspx

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

What we're all still waiting for from those who think the doors should be open is any credible plan for dealing with these people in the longer term - jobs, services, housing etc. etc. etc.. Given our existing problems in these areas and the constant complaining about them I find that quite bizarre. Furthermore we're already seeing how quickly opinions change when all those fine sounding words and welcomes result in large scale disruption people's actual lives. It's so easy to be generous on someone else's behalf isn't it. Frankly we're lucky to be the other side of the Channel and only have our ports to worry about.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Must admit I was wondering how different the comments would be if the UK was 'the first safe country' and the 300k+ people had arrived on our European shores. I'm pretty sure the complaints on here would be about the rest of Europe not helping us out by letting us ship people around the continent. But it's OK as they're not banging on our door so sod them.

Cheers

Grim

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Nail firmly hit on head my friend, excellent post

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Well, for one thing, I balk at roaming costs and these guys are travelling through multiple countries. Very odd :erm:

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

... and, as if by magic, tensions in Europe rise significantly:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34302285

I wonder how those 'emergency meetings' are going in Eurolalaland... :rolleyes:

If anyone still wanted proof that the EU is inherently defective, this episode is just that.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

As well as destabilising the Middle East in general, the Iraq War was also responsible for creating the conditions for ISIS to survive and thrive in the first place. If the UK and US had not invaded Iraq, there would be no ISIS.

And then, of course, "the West" decided it wanted rid of Assad in Syria, even if it meant that Salafist insurgents grew in power.



Given the UK and the USA's contribution to this whole mess, I think that both countries have a particular responsibility to help those in need, in addition to any moral responsibility that all countries should have.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Another brilliant post

What some on here can't understand as you say we were instrumental in the situation. Yet we think we can hide and let others clean up our mess

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

this might be a silly question but where are they charging these phones ?

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

At a guess spare batteries and solar chargers ?

---------- Post added at 15:12 ---------- Previous post was at 15:05 ----------

Vodafone euro traveller £3 per day and you get to use your normal minutes/texts/data for example across the whole of Europe

Or PAYG sims depending on the country they're currently in

---------- Post added at 15:19 ---------- Previous post was at 15:12 ----------

300 empty properties in Stockton & Middlesbrough that are ready to be used the only homeless are those that have made themselves intentionally so

Large amounts of job vacancies across a broad spectrum of roles

Similar situation across a lot of the north east of the UK

The issues you speak of are localised to certain geographic areas and not a nationwide blight

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Grow up

---------- Post added at 15:51 ---------- Previous post was at 15:49 ----------

Well said :clap:

---------- Post added at 15:56 ---------- Previous post was at 15:51 ----------

This is exactly the point, the UK has an obligation to help, ideally to help resolve the cause of the problem and not just the symptoms

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Another one to the ignore list, you go and be a luvvie & read your Guardian and feel all smug inside because you're making it 'all alright' :rolleyes:

I'll keep it real thanks, I'm not into self flagellation, but go and knock yourself out.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

the locals might not be as happy as you are at giving away the housing stock and the local jobs .

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Just for clarity to those who thought I was surprised that these people have technology. I'm not.

I was however pointing out, that because so many do, and are also on Social media etc that it's ramping up numbers of people who are now more advised on routes to take, places to avoid etc, than would have been in times gone by.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

A reasoned well thought out post apart from one problem

The routes being used are hundreds if not thousands of years old

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

That's clearly the case and only adds to the problems we face.

---------- Post added at 17:19 ---------- Previous post was at 17:15 ----------

Yes, it's finding your own jobs, services, housing, benefits etc. coming under pressure which focuses minds and turns opinions then we find local people coming into conflict with the newcomers. It's really nothing new, it's just on an unprecedented scale in peacetime.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Be interesting to see if Germany remain enthusiastic given E6 billion of savings from this year are going towards handling their migrant / refugee influx with a further E2.5 billion of public spending cuts planned to help cover the bill next year.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutsc...a-1053670.html

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

"Well of course they're nearly all Syrian refugees aren't they":

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documen...b-cc9b4f6a838f

Ermmm... No they're not.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Erm.....:erm:

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Must be a long list by now then :)

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Nobody on my ignore list. I love reading mindless drivel.:erm:

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

So do I :)

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

He's not thought this through. As I said above, it's the roaming fees that are crippling......not the phone purchase price. Anyway, they must have cheaper providers than we do. :shrug:

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

well the good thing is they had the foresight to take their electronics with them, sad that most of them seem to have left the women children and elders behind unless the media is only filming mostly young men to influence our perception of the situation .

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

"Most of them"?

Based on what?


You haven't fallen for the obviously BS Facebook memes, have you?

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

i have never used facebook or the like ,my observation comes from the tv news broadcasts and i observe mostly young men being filmed marching across Europe .

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Some figures based on gender:

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statist...lum_statistics

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

We had 600k polish plus turn up iirc, perhaps they could settle there, Poland must have plenty of room now

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

35 MILLION migrants heading to Europe, says Hungary as it builds second fence

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...s-second-fence

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

You're putting words in my mouth and I won't waste any more of my time if you keep doing that.

To prevent you doing so I'll summarise: if someone wants to come here, they will follow correct immigration laws and procedures for doing so.

If they are desperate to come here as they have no other option for survival or safety then yes we (as per other EU members) should accept them, providing there is no clear evidence that they're a danger to the UK.

This is why I have sympathy yet little or no support for those in Calais. So far nobody has been able to demonstrate to me why anyone's life or safety is more at risk there than in the UK. As for our geographic location, that's irrelevant. I support the notion of each EU country agreeing to a number of refugees based on a number of factors such as wealth, resources, space etc.

When a refugee arrives in a safe country the authorities then decide where they go. I have no problem with the people requesting certain countries (due to family or qualifications which would benefit that country etc) and this could be taken in to account but given how they must be desperate for safety their choice should not be the final say - it's up to the EU to allocate.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Is taking in a million a fair share? What's fair about that to all the other millions left behind then? They'd be the truly desperate and helpless, the ones who had no money or means by which to escape.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

We'll have to agree to disagree on me putting words in your mouth, from my perspective I asked two reasonable questions. Theres also no need to patronise

I'll ask you another question, in your opinion are the people in the camps in Calais all there purely for economic reasons?


Our geographic location is important as i think you (apologies if not the case) and a lot of others have implied that why are they trying to get the UK when there are a myriad of safe countries between the UK and the multitude of transit routes.

Lets face it, the numbers in Calais are insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

Are you seriously expecting the countries that are currently processing these refugees to be able to maintain and keep up??

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I will if you keep putting words in my mouth.

I have no idea but I can't see how any are desperate unless they're residents of France and even then they'd legally have passage to us.

As you say there are plenty of other safe countries so anyone ignoring or passing through them for another country is not desperate or in need.

We need to keep up our resistance in Calais, anything less and suddenly word will go around that it's the new place to be.

Absolutely, given that the alternative is utter chaos and anarchy.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

It makes me laugh how some folks won't be happy until the UK has to endure even more problems with uncontrolled migration and failed immigration policy than we already do. They live in a country which has experienced massive population increases through migration and see huge chaos in places like Germany and Austria yet they still don't get it and want to bring even more of it here for some ridiculous reason. I guess it proves they're incapable of rational thought and impervious to reason. I wonder, whilst congratulating themselves on their humanitarianism, how many of these people have done a single significant practical thing to assist the migrants they say they're so keen to help come here. I find it astonishing that people want to perpetuate and exacerbate the chaos which is unfolding in Europe because allowing more in will only cause more to follow. Fact!

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Quite. And I bet they'll be the same people kicking up a fuss when they can't get doctors appointments becuase the surgery of full of ailing immigrants or dentists appointments because the surgery is full of immigrants getting their teeth fixed for free or their children are told that the social housing is all taken by the more deserving immigrants etc, etc.

The services in this country and its infrastructure are already at breaking point yet some people want to allow any number of immigrants to waltz in. :rolleyes:

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Absolutely, the sort of people who issue forth on behalf of migrants in Calais until their business or holiday trip of is cancelled due to migrant infiltration of the tunnel/ferry terminal or their route to work becomes a nightmare due to operation stack. At that point they whine loud and clear. It's pathetic.

How long, if at all, does anyone seriously think those who're banging on about taking in people will do so? What'll happen if they decide they can't live like that anymore or suddenly need their spare room(s) back? Can you imagine the frenzied backlash there'll be as soon as one of these hosts is harmed, robbed, raped or experiences some other serious problem with their guests? Honestly the naivety evident in what some people are saying is beyond belief and I do believe that some of it is politically motivated.

I heard one deluded woman on LBC this morning banging on about how she wants to take in migrants. When it was pointed out that we don't really have a clue who most of these people are she agreed there is a security risk but started blaming the lack of an effective vetting procedure going back years. She's right about that of course but how stupid is she therefore to want to take that sort of risk inviting unknown people into her own home? Yes they could be normal decent people but amongst them are everything from petty thieves to budding terrorists, rapists and murderers. There'll also be those who through no fault of their own will have serious psychological problems and could pose a serious risk to other people. The potential for massive problems is huge and would insurance cover such generous hosts for housing unknown people in their homes and any risks associated therewith. Of course, when the self appointed great and good decide they've had enough of hosting complete strangers it'll be the rest of us who pick up the tab in one way or another. I can imagine their calls for help as their misguided generosity backfires.

I don't think most of the people making such offers are at all serious about doing so. I reckon they range from the genuinely decent and sincere to the naïve, the usual bandwagon jumpers and those with political or other motives e.g. trying to change the UK's policies and even those who'd like to see the makeup of our society changed from within.

I ask those so keen to take in refugees why they've never felt so keen on taking in our own destitute and needy. I doubt many of them have ever even spared a coin to a beggar.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

It maybe just a matter of time. Who knows

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Health and safety laws will stop families taking in Syrian refugees

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/w...cle4563101.ece (behind paywall)

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

“A steady patriot of the world alone,
The friend of every country—but his own.”

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I believe (from one of the links I've posted IIRC) that the Germans have been experiencing serious problems due to their health, safety and planning regulations. Thought through? I think not...

Update:

It's here:-

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...a-1052546.html

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

that kind of gesture doesn't have the same feel good factor you don't get the same warm fuzzy feeling and adoration from your face book contacts if you take in a tramp .

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

This is the equivalent of 'lefties' thinking people on the right hate the poor.

It might just be some of these people are conflicted about how best to deal with what is an increasingly becoming a crisis. They're not (necessarily) 'deluded' and are trying to think of a way to balance the concept of asylum and problems that can come with high levels of migration. Even some in UKIP, hardly a pro-immigration party, are suggesting increasing the numbers of asylum seekers we accept.

You don't have to reduce those who think differently from you to nasty caricatures with malevolent or deluded motivations. Especially if you then complain if they then do the same by calling people who share your views as racist or heartless. It helps no one.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I think deluded is a perfectly accurate term to use for many of these people, including a few on here.

It's interesting watching the southern parts of the EU change tact as reality strikes, by the time the horde get closer, it'll be really really obvious even to our beloved luvvie left what is and what isn't real.

Lets watch time take its course over the next few weeks and see what reality is really like...

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

No it isn't. Across Europe we have living (and dying tragically) proof that the policy of admitting more migrants only causes more to follow and creates huge entirely predictable problems. Anyone who refutes that does so in spite of the proof. That's not the same as a glib statement along the lines of all Tories hate the poor...

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

That proof isn't there or isn't convincing. How do you know that these immigrants wouldn't come anyway and attempt to get in via other means? We did try to stop the rescue attempts at sea and people came anyway nor is there a test case we can use to show that it is policy of admitting migrants than cause them to come.

Still you might be right on that. I am not sure. What I was commenting on is that a lot of people are clearly conflicted on the issue (even people are are traditionally anti-immigration) and that doesn't mean they are deluded, hypocritical or otherwise have a simplistic motivation.

Even the right-wing press and UKIP seem rather unsure what to make of it all. It's only on here and Facebook that I see such confidence in approaching the issue. I think that suggests it isn't so clear-cut.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I see endless complaints about the migrants, the EU and how this whole mess is being handled.

I see precious little positive ideas on how the problem should be tackled at it's source i.e. trying to stop the people leaving the region in the first place rather than trying to stop them getting to where they are not welcome.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Because that's not newsworthy or emotive.

There was a brief mention in the press a couple of days ago about £100 million from the UK Aid budget being used to improve the refugee camps.

Also, how do we sort out a four-way civil war in Syria, and Shia vs Sunni conflict in Iraq.

The reason we have the current problems in Iraq, Libya, and Syria is that we tried to export our version of democracy to countries that have no history or ability to support it, due to historical and religious conflicts - Bush et al thought it was easy, and look where we are now....

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Do me a favour. ;) You only have to see what happened after Merkel's ill judged comments for as much proof as you'll ever get in a situation like this. Do you really think that if Cameron suddenly announced an open door and guaranteed permanent refuge, loads more wouldn't head straight here in order to find a better life? Whether economic migrants or genuine refugees, these people are desperate and there a countless more millions who are just as desperate. I don't think you really believe they wouldn't come here if a major stumbling block in their way was suddenly removed. The very fact that Australia has to a large extent solved what was a growing problem there by doing the opposite and being much tougher only adds to the argument IMHO. It didn't stop the boats on day one, week one or month one - it took time, but slowly as the word got around that migrants would be stopped from getting to the mainland and taken to some island in the middle of nowhere the numbers fell massively.

In the case of Europe, it's unlikely we can get those already well on the way to turn back now but we do need to stop more following on behind. We need to stop encouraging them to make that journey and help them much closer to home.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

If you cannot differentiate between the two then there is something severely wrong with you.

---------- Post added at 12:22 ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 ----------

Funny how the people who are shouting down the taking in of refugees keep on choosing to ignore this rather important fact.........

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Most probably they would but this sudden mass of migration happened before Germany took in a large number of refugees. It's only recently that EU countries have openly spoken about taking in these migrants and that was in response to the developing crisis rather than the spark for it. I think they would still come and attempt to get in illegally in many countries as ultimately the risk of getting caught is still better than the risk of staying in a warzone or oppressive police state.

We're not talking of a conventional migration problem though which is what Australia has faced. Most of their immigrants come from the UK or Eastern Asia (China, India, Pakistan etc). None of these countries are quite experiencing the exodus that we're seeing from Syria, Eritrea and Libya. The numbers we're dealing with in Europe at the moment are vastly more than Australia faced.

Australia may provide a useful example in the case of how to deal with a conventional idea of what excessive migration is, hundreds of thousands for example, but we are dealing with a full blown crisis in the millions. Syria alone accounts for around 4 million refugees. Australia faced high numbers of migrants, Europe is facing the disintegration of several states at once.

I disagree with the idea of just refusing to take them for two reasons. One is that I think that migrants will come irrespective of the legality or ease of obtaining citizenship given the collapse of their home nations and secondly it doesn't solve the problem of what to do with the large amounts of people already here. :shrug:

That said I don't know what the solution is. We witnessing the collapse of nations so maybe attempting to stabilise them might help but how would we do that?

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Who's suggesting JUST refusing to take them? I'm suggesting we should take some refugees but focus our efforts far more on treating their problems in situ.

So far as economic migrants are concerned there's no way we can prevent people from all around the globe forming expectations, even wildly unrealistic ones, about what life will be like in the UK, the US or anywhere else for that matter and wanting to better themselves. That's why they do things like climb inside airliner undercarriage and take their chances on intercontinental flights. No we can't stop such people trying it on (and in so doing risking their lives, and those of others) so the only way to prevent them becoming a serious and ever increasing problem is to make detection, enforcement and removal far more robust. That's another subject however, right now we just need to stem the flow before things get seriously nasty.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Invade them, occupy them for around a century and then, when they've spent 50 years trying so hard to eject us they have forgotten they hate each other, leave them with a national flag that resembles whichever fleet of the Royal Navy was most directly responsible for their maritime security.

Trust me, it works.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34321185

I don't normally look at the comments sections for articles but right now from what I've seen of the almost 900 comments on this one there's not much evidence of support for taking in more migrants. As the numbers grow so will the opposition and the anger.

---------- Post added at 13:46 ---------- Previous post was at 13:29 ----------

Here, courtesy of UKIP, is a Labour MP's view explaining that the UK should carry on taking in migrants until we reach our 'saturation point'.

http://www.ukip.org/york_mp_backtrac...s_don_t_matter

I'd have thought allowing anything as serious as immigration to reach a 'saturation point' before having to do something about it is asking for big trouble, especially given the problems of integration and radicalisation we're already facing. Clearly not for Ms Maskell. I wonder what she suggests we do after her 'saturation point' has been reached and her extra one week for NHS treatment becomes 2, 3, 4... Does she think people will suddenly stop coming when we put a sign up saying 'FULL'? :rolleyes:

When she's not encouraging saturation, I don't suppose Ms Maskell is quite so relaxed about NHS resources, waiting times etc. when there's scope for blaming the Tories.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I have no idea if this lady has connections to York or was parachuted in from an all-female shortlist, but I'm not sure her constituents would concur with this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPl_D4bbqsE

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Party politics means that it doesn't matter what her constituents think. Once elected they toe the party line and follow the whip. :(

---------- Post added at 17:57 ---------- Previous post was at 17:07 ----------

Meanwhile...

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2015/09/7.png

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34329825

Still no real plan then, just an acrimonious attempt to palm off those who mainly want to go to Germany on other countries who either aren't keen to have them or are refusing to. We're all still waiting to hear, from Juncker et al, who's going to stop these people going where they want? The EU a single state? Like Hell - the antagonism stirred up here is not going to be forgotten in a very long time.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

So what is your plan?

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

The UN differentiates between the two and sets out guidelines for other countries to do the same



Is it worth pointing out most of those people aren't Syrian, Libyan or Iraqi, even taking the Mail's little ways into account and taking into account that some of them may have escaped other war torn countries and need help 80% is a large figure for these little things we're taking into account to swallow up

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...orn-Syria.html

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I've always said regarding economic migrants work on a points based system to admit those who can improve our country

When it comes to countries where we have played a direct part in destabilisation such as Syria, Iraq Libya and Afghanistan and we have a moral obligation to provide an open door

---------- Post added at 22:02 ---------- Previous post was at 21:45 ----------

Well there is a plan.....

All are migrants "in clear need of international protection" to be resettled from Italy, Greece, Hungary to other EU member states
15,600 from Italy, 50,400 from Greece, 54,000 from Hungary, though it is unclear how many are still in Hungary
Initial screening of asylum applicants carried out in Greece, Hungary and Italy
Syrians, Eritreans, Iraqis prioritised

Does that look like economic migrants or genuine refugees are being resettled to you?

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Like someone else famously said you forgot Poland, how many have they taken as part of their moral obligation after destabilising certain countries and what happens once the countries are stable again, they go home, how many Kosovans went home after Britain among others put themselves on the line for them.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Link
Says it all really.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Yep, says it all really about ONE man, unless of course you're implying this is the view held by all refugees, but you wouldnt be as silly to suggest that, would you?

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Clearly it's held as the view by many as they are tromping ever Northward, bypassing countries 'not worthy'...

Or perhaps in your infinite lefty wisdom you can explain why they are not stopping in one of the many countries they encounter instead of heading determinedly ever onward?

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

It's fairly obvious why they're heading to Germany... even without my 'infinite lefty wisdom' have you considered the fact that if other countries welcomed them in the way the Germans have, they wouldn't be 'tromping ever Northward'

Probably not, as that require a degree of any wisdom.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I wonder... You lot like your social Engineering, consider this.
Europe wide open, tell the migrants one thing only. Go anywhere you like - where do you think they will end up?

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Sorry, misread your initial question...

So to answer, we don't know the answer to that, you can make a supposition but that's it.

Loving the way you say 'you lot' hints to your broader attitude ;)

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

No I meant as an experiment, no rules.
Just a 'yes go where you will'
With all of Europe as a playground and no barrier, where do you think they will go.

My attitude is what it is, based on Traditional values that are fast dying out.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

So again they're choosing to avoid certain countries? Not desperate or in need then.