Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I know - I'm not saying he did. But unlike you I'm not forming my opinion of this based on weak 'evidence'. Nothing wrong with robustly defending your stance but you have to admit you are forming your view on the very 'evidence' that you're telling us is anecdotal.

That screams of the double standards you claim to be against.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I agree, if I have missed any questions, I am sorry and I will do my best to answer them.

---------- Post added at 22:06 ---------- Previous post was at 22:05 ----------

There really is not justifiable reason for them to behave that way.

The students that is, not the police.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Well I can view it but it is very inconclusive because it suffers from being dark,murky and at some distance with a fair amount of pushing and shoving with bodies interposed in front of the mobile phone camera.It's virtually un viewable.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

What questions have I refused to answer? I will answer the questions I can and I apologise if I have missed any.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Well that tells me as much as the video would have. Thank you Maggy :)

I therefore stand by my initial comments.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Sheeeesh, how long do you have?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Anyhoo ,if Mr wheel chair is such a helpless character then why is he placed in the firing line , as in nomads piccy , in that one he's in front of a pack of baying animals armed with sticks,bars and god knows what else ,

nice place to put you're crippled brother i don't think :rolleyes:

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

It does make for a good picture though, for some ;)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Did you not watch the video in the link posted by Gary L?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

It has to be said that a wheel chair can cause a nice bruise or two if rammed into legs or run over toes and used as a battering ram it might just get you through a thin blue line.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I am working at about thirty posts behind everybody else, I will get through as many as I can, but there are few things I need to attended to, I will return soon.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

aaahhh so he wasn't just out for a innocent non-violent peacefull walk then :)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Maybe that should tell you something, perhaps?

;)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

We have all seen the previous demonstrations and the riots that went with them, so any wheelchair user that goes to the next demonstration knows exactly what they are letting themselves in for, therefore I have no pity for them whatsoever.

Before anyone posts a retort about wheelchair users my brother has never walked since birth and uses a wheelchair every single day, so I know a lot more about using a wheelchair than most people and you never put yourself up for it unless you are very, very stupid.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I did and I can't discern anything in the video.It's not very clear and in fact is very bad as a source of evidence.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Not bad enough for those who always like to think ill of the police it seems....

Look we all know the cops have nothing better to do that to attack entirely innocent and helpless law abiding citizens going about their daily routine....:rolleyes:

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

He was in the middle of a road and it can clearly be seen, that he was being wheeled in the wheelchair at first. How he came out of the wheelchair is obscured.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Ah but you're missing the obvious! The reason the footage is obscured is that GCHQ, MI5 and everyone else have conspired to cover up a terrible, savage and totally unprovoked attack by police officers on a helpless disabled person who was simply minding his own business.... :rolleyes:

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

thought as much :D

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

But very good at helping you see only what you want to see ;)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

any one fancy a bit of drivel

http://jodymcintyre.wordpress.com/


this bit is intriguing


and when you put this preceding paragraph with it ,it all starts to make sense




the way i read that ,even with all the over emotive drivel is that the intention of the police was to remove him (a person in a wheel chair) from the violent situation but he refused

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

OK, so let me get this right...

He gets ripped from his wheelchair, yet gets up to stand in front of the Police horses about to charge? :shocked:

riiiiiiiight, I smell BS (not with your post martyh but) with an utter retard that would stand in front of Police horses, I mean that *is* properly retarded, what kind of an idiot would do such a thing unless they were looking for attention?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

sorry but you got your quotes in the wrong order
came first then
which reads a different point of view

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I stopped reading after he can't even get Rosa Parks' name correct. That's 2nd paragraph, 2nd sentence. Very disrespectful to the woman's memory and if he can't have get that correct what does it say for the rest of his spiel?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

exactly and when told to move ..he shook his head and refused to move .

I did some searching for that site just so that we could get his view of what happened and as i suspected it is over emotive drivel but when you remove that i think it is quite clear what the police were trying to do but were impeded by said numpty himself .And just to make things clear he is not a paraplegic(directed at FB) he can walk(albeit not perfectly) and has full use of his arms so is just as capable of inflicting harm on any police officer as anyone else .

At the risk of upsetting some people ,i am prepaired to state that this character is milking his disabled status by using it in a way to bring disrepute on people who would otherwise seek to protect him from harm ...shame on him :mad::mad:

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

In my opinion, while not wanting to denigrate any of the stories that have arisen on both 'sides', the stories are detracting from the subject of the proposed increase in tuition fees for university education.

I'd prefer to concentrate on that as the subject of debate - the antics of adopted sons of music celebrities or the alleged ill treatment of wheelchair-bound protesters are, with respect, side issues.

The reason students are protesting is not because of police tactics. They are protesting because they are told an University Education is a pre-requisite to a decent job - but they may have to incur debts of 9 grand a year for fees alone, to achieve that standard.???

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Fair play, you have said what i was thinking... i don't have enough stars though lol :p:

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

you're quite right Gazfan ,they do want something for nothing

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

take a look dont see him in a crowd.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUHzS...layer_embedded

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Jeez that video is so dark you can't see anything.

Hamming it up?

Edit - Having looked at it a second time, I see the camera panning away at the key points. Oh, and the Police Officer dragging him to the side of the road, presumably out of harms way.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Apart from the odd person claiming that education should be free, I thought the protests were against an increase in fees rather than fees per se?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

but he is very much a Activist
he has a lot to say
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOxGD...eature=related

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

No they don't.They want a fair crack of the whip as I got when I was a student.That was a means tested grant and those that didn't have the means(such as me) got a full free grant.Those that had the means got their grant topped up by their parents and in most cases to more than the full grant.

I've more than paid back that grant across the years in the taxes that I paid as I worked.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Thanks, well said, the 'means tested' grant was something I also benefited from, especially when, as a 'mature student' my wife's earnings were taken into account.

- there was never a 'something for nothing' aspect to the process - however, neither was there the implication that by being educated there was, automatically, an incurred debt?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I've said this earlier, but I think it's worth repeating:

Tuition fees in England after the raise will be 3 to 4 times higher than in most of continental Europe, and ~2 times higher than the average for 'home state students' at US public Unis.

Do we really think putting a price on education is going to help us in the global economy?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

The kind of person that wants to make a point and realises that him being in a wheelchair is so much more photogenic.;)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Because clearly all institutions will charge the full £9k and accept the conditions and further withdrawal of funding attached, right?

Less of the 'will' and more 'could' is wise right now as neither you nor I have any idea how many will charge £9k and indeed it's quite clear that the policy actively disincentivises doing so.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Ok. Let me be more precise then: At £6k, Tuition fees in England will be more than 3 times higher than the highest rates for EU students in continental Europe*, and ~1.5 times the average for 'home state students' at US public Unis.

*Fees in Europe vary considerably. From what I've seen, Germany and the Netherlands are top of the scale at about €2000. There are no tuition fees for EU students in Denmark, Sweden is £30 per semester. France about €200 per year for an undergraduate degree.

http://www.studyineurope.eu/

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Denmark and Sweden both eat approximately 50% of their national income in taxation, France marginally lower though this ignores some other deductions but they are, once the off the books stuff is taken into account, horribly in debt.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ta...otal-as-of-gdp

Once health care, mandatory pension and social security are taken into account Germany and Netherlands also both have significantly higher burdens than the UK where this is rolled into general taxation.

We're Mid-Atlantic for better or worse and comparison to the US is probably fairest :shrug:

When comparing to the US incidentally it should be noted that the quality of many US degrees is laughable. Do we want to go down that route? Are we already there?

---------- Post added at 12:59 ---------- Previous post was at 12:56 ----------

What % of people were going on to Higher Education when you did it?

Careful about what you have and have not paid back in taxes over the years, remember we all draw from public services, pay into what is in theory our pension fund, potentially draw welfare at some point, as we pay our taxes so it's really, really hard to say what any of us have and have not paid for.

Being a teacher even though you may or may not have paid for your education, and given the rubbish pay we give our educators it wouldn't surprise if you haven't, you've most certainly paid it back in other ways. :tu:

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Funded 2 wars with Iraq 1 in Afganistan various other UN involvement like in the former Yugoslavia etc. The arms race. Government expenses. Far to many politicians and councillors wages.

Plenty of things we dont get any use out of we pay for also ;)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I've never had to make any claims beyond child benefit and I really only claimed that to keep up with maintaining NI payments.Never claimed unemployment even though I was technically entitled to do so under the rules at the time.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

True, but the main point I was making is that most of continental Europe is subsidising Higher Education from general taxation, presumably in recognition of the economic benefits of an educated workforce. We are moving away from that, and I am wondering how wise that is given global economic developments. As has been remarked earlier, we don't need an all-graduates workforce, we need binmen as well. Let's just hope we're not making Higher Education so expensive that we end up with a workforce of just binmen, as that makes no economic sense whatsoever.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

The mother of an injured student was on sky news there. Her comments, edited and condensed.

The first protest, where an office block got trashed, was an appropriate level of policing. Further protests where the police tried to stop people trashing large chunks of central London were oppressive.
In three big protests she hasn't seen any protestors armed with petrol, snookers balls etc.
She is more interested in protesting rather than being with her son.

Basically she's a walking lefty stereotype. All that was missin was a copy of the guardian under her arm.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

This would depend entirely on the degree being done.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/lif...cle6829650.ece

http://www.personneltoday.com/articl...year-high.html

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Some recent interesting (imho) info on US student debt - Education Bubble

One interesting stat was that, on average, it takes 5.4 years to complete a four year course, and the average student debt is $23k (just under £15k).

I didn't realise that the public State Universities charged higher fees for out of state applicants.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I was listening to a discussion on the radio on Sunday which said that when universities initally introduced fees, all charged the maximum they were able to.

I don't have any concrete evidence to back this up as I only caught the discussion near its end, but it wouldn't suprise me if the majority of unis charged the maximum.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Yes, but I was talking about the benefits to the country, rather than the individual. The question I'm raising is what impact making Higher Education so much more expensive is going to have on the economic prospects of the UK.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Can I just point out though that there's a cultural difference there, in the US it's considered commonplace to save for your children's college education. Note that they say 2/3rds of students take loans. I would speculate that figure is somewhat higher here.

In addition scholarships and financial aid are far more mature programmes in the United States.

http://www.wbur.org/2010/05/25/student-loans-ii

---------- Post added at 14:05 ---------- Previous post was at 14:04 ----------

That didn't have conditions attached, charging over £6k does this time around in a big way so not comparable.

---------- Post added at 14:07 ---------- Previous post was at 14:05 ----------

We have less unemployed graduates and more tradesmen and skilled non-graduates hopefully.

I have serious doubts given the lack of evidence of a clear impact on the economy the huge uptick in % of people going to university has had.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Well, I doubt that we are going to see massive economic growth in manufacturing and agriculture in the foreseeable future, so I hope there's a 'plan B'.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Yes I see, that appears though, it was quite sometime before the incident in which he was dragged across the road.

---------- Post added at 16:18 ---------- Previous post was at 16:12 ----------

That is certainly a plausible course of events, but what puzzles me is why the officer had to drag the man. Surely, a better course of action would be to carry him, reducing the risk of any further injury, or wait for assistance from another officer; there were quite a few around. Then there is when he rushed back to man on the floor and had to be dragged away by another officer. His demeanour didn't appear as though his re-approach was going to be very benevolent.

---------- Post added at 16:32 ---------- Previous post was at 16:18 ----------

And this is the point, what happens when it goes beyond dealing with violent protest, to suppressing all protest? I am not supporting those who have unnecessarily caused disorder, I find their approach to be illogical and counterproductive, but we cannot lump all the protesters in with them. Which the press seems to be trying to achieve and by the looks of it, with some level of success.

I would have thought that you would support protest right at the seat of government. Isn't that what so many were calling for when it was causes which affected them. If our government were to shut themselves away in fortress Westminster, how would they get to hear the people? How would the people express their disquiet of the very people who are supposed to listen?

As far as other countries are concerned, I think you may be generalising a little too much. The USA, for example, have recently seen the "tea party" demonstrators march on their capital. The Republic of Ireland has just witnessed demonstrations on The Dail, they were able to get right up to the gates. Of course conversely, the ones who don't allow protests in front of government, tend to be countries who don't allow that sort of thing at all; I am pretty sure no one wants that.

---------- Post added at 16:33 ---------- Previous post was at 16:32 ----------

Hey, now there's an idea. :D ;)

---------- Post added at 16:36 ---------- Previous post was at 16:33 ----------

That as maybe the case, but it appears to be a separate incident to the one shown on the video. I can't see how that one would justify the other.

---------- Post added at 16:40 ---------- Previous post was at 16:36 ----------

Whilst I agree that the start of the incident is not all that clear (perhaps we will see some more footage emerge, like in the Tomlinson case, that will support it either way), the man was certainly dragged across the road. What I am not so sure about, is that standard operating procedure when transporting disabled demonstrators.

---------- Post added at 16:41 ---------- Previous post was at 16:40 ----------

Hmm, it looked to me as though he was on the pavement on the other side of the road.

---------- Post added at 16:48 ---------- Previous post was at 16:41 ----------

It sounds as though you are trying say that the police have never beat anyone up before.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Italians make student protests look rather tame.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

That puzzled me as well. Could he be using a metaphor, or I he able to stand but not walk. I would like to see more of this man's actions on the day. Is there any more footage of him?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

yes here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOxGD...eature=related
and here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F50QF...eature=related

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

So - not a metaphor, then....

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

That's quite a leap in judgement. You don't even know him. I could point out that it looks like that you are pushing your opinions of him as fact, but you would do something like that. ;) As I understand it, he suffers from CP, which would make it very difficult for him to walk, but probably still able to stand.

---------- Post added at 17:04 ---------- Previous post was at 16:59 ----------

That's very unfair, in my opinion. From what I have seen there wasn't many who were doing that. Most of those who were, were the ones who wanted a certain politician to honour his pledge. The vast majority were protesting about the fact that they might be paying three times as much for their education than they were promised.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

nope i stand by what i said ,read his account of both the incidents i posted

---------- Post added at 17:12 ---------- Previous post was at 17:08 ----------

yes they are protesting against a rise in fees but aren't they also protesting about the lib dems scrapping the pledge to scrap them altogether within 2 parliarments

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

If that is what they were promised, why shouldn't they feel a little cheated.

---------- Post added at 17:18 ---------- Previous post was at 17:14 ----------

Neither of those video were of him on the day.

One of the most significant points (and quite an obvious one) was the concept of "non-violent resistance."

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

It was Clegg that promised it ,should he win the election ,he didn't so he can't

they weren't supposed to be they were to show you that it was not a mataphor

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Interview with Jody McIntyre - BBC (apologies if it has been posted before).

In it, he states the police were trying to provoke violence from the protesters......

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Did david cameron and the tories promise no rises in tuition fee's did they ever say a thing about abolishing them no they didn't and whether some people like it or not the tories are the biggest party and the lib dems didn't win. This was the thing for the lib dems they were always able to promise just about anything they wanted knowing they would never form a government by majority vote anytime soon and now it comes back to bite them in the backside. That doesn't excuse a bunch of morons going on the rampage tearing up buildings and desecrating national memorials and if some feel they are justified in that behaviour then post your real address and invite them round for their next protest.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

The second video showed two things, firstly that he is a bloody idiot willing to put himself in harms way deliberately to make a 'good film' and secondly the Israeli troops are bloody accurate when firing tear gas.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Bloody polis, standing there acting as targets for snooker balls, petrol bombs, paint and bottles of urine before reacting. What do they expect? :rolleyes:

I've tried reading the protestors blog, I can only get so far in before a mixture of anger and laughter stops me.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

he was lucky it was tear gas out there.
is he brave or is he just $@%$£%$ stupid

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

The latter imo :nutter:

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Does it? Well coming from you it doesn't surprise me one jot frankly - you have 'previous' when it comes to a rather jaundiced view of the Police after all. Just just to clarify it for you, however, I'm well aware that certain elements of the police can and do act very badly at times. Unlike some people, however, I am not prepared to tar them all with that particular brush from the outset, before the facts are known and don't see cover-ups, conspiracies and falsifications from within their ranks everywhere I look. Given the considerable provocation they face and the constraints they work under I think the Police have a very difficult job to do, by and large do it very well and deserve our thanks for having the guts to put themselves in the firing line.

---------- Post added at 20:31 ---------- Previous post was at 20:26 ----------

You do like to keep reminding people of the facts don't you!! :D

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

yep, it is a bad habit i picked up from you :D

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Nah - I learned everything I know from Hugh... ;)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

lesson 2 ...passing the buck ....it's all Hughs fault :D

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

It usually is......;)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

You're confusing Hugh with Thatcher now matey... :D

---------- Post added at 21:32 ---------- Previous post was at 21:28 ----------

Well if you want any tips on grovelling, I'm your man.... :D

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Just watched that ... he didn't acquit himself very well at all. Just hid behind a lot of bluster, and, TBH, tried on several occasions to use his disability as justification for going wherever he wanted, whenever he wanted, and expecting not to be challenged in any way.

Oh, and then he blamed his brother, because he was the one pushing the chair. Just slightly pathetic from one who styles himself as a cyber-revolutionary.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

it's the silver hair and the handbag :Sprint:

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Oh come now, that excuse is wearing a bit thin. What is the point of them being in government at all, if they can't influence policy?



No they weren't. I asked if there was anymore footage of him on that day and the answer was "yes" and then the links to the videos. If the poster meant that it was about metaphors, he really should have said. I can't be blamed for someone not being clear.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I believe the "metaphor" comment was in reply to your earlier post, about Jody standing up in front of the police horses....

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Well they've clearly influenced policy - on personal allowances, for example, so what's your point again? :confused::rolleyes: Influencing policy isn't quite the same as being able to dictate policy after all and they at least being in coalition affords them an excuse which Blair and Brown can't rely on when it comes to delivering on pre-election promises..

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

There is a yawning, semantic chasm between 'influence' and 'dictate'. Blind Freddie can see that the Lib Dems have influence over Coalition policy - the referendum on AV being the prime example. Do not underestimate how hard that one is going to be for a lot of Tory backbenchers to stomach.

On the other hand, their position does not allow them to dictate - which is why there are some things they simply have to swallow hard and get on with.

What actually is wearing a bit thin is all the comedy jaw dropping that has been going on over the last few weeks, by supposedly intelligent, keen political commentators who are asking us to take seriously the idea that they don't understand the quite fundamental difference between single party majority and coalition.

This is not altogether dissimilar to the divisions that exist within all our political parties. They are all broad churches with differing views and priorities among members. The only difference is, those divisions are better managed and usually better hidden from the Press and public.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Typically Flyboy seems to have missed that bit.... :D How long has the coalition been in existence again? A few months isn't it?.... Not exactly 13 years of excuses and lies then...... :rolleyes:

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

The pledge:

Now, it says nothing at all about, "unless we end up in a coalition with the Tories," or, "only if we win."

Point one: It says that the signatory will vote against an increase in fees. Each and everyone of them had the opportunity to vote against the increase. Only a handful did.

Point two: The signatory pledged to pressure the government to introduce a fairer alternative. Seeing as they did not specify which party, I don't think it should really matter who is in power.

There are increasing noises, around Westminster, that suggest the LibDems had actually decided not to honour the pledge, sometime before the election (I'm sure this has been debated already, but it does no harm to remind us all). They had ample opportunity to come clean and tell everyone their intentions. I do believe that some maverick former candidate is planning on suing his victorious opponent on the basis of fraud and a breach of contract.

---------- Post added at 22:20 ---------- Previous post was at 22:11 ----------


Aah yes, the facts. When did Clegg say that he would only honour the pledge if they won?

---------- Post added at 22:25 ---------- Previous post was at 22:20 ----------

No, I think it was meant to show that he videos were to demonstrate it wasn't a metaphor. But the one who posted them implied it was footage of the tuition fees demonstration.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

It is implicit in any policy statement, pledge or promise that it can only be delivered if the one making it has the power to do it. :shrug:

Carry on playing with words and doing the shock-horror act if it makes you feel better FB, but the political agenda has moved on and, this measure having been dealt with at the very beginning of a 5-year Parliament, in the grand scheme of things it is unlikely to make very much difference at all to the political landscape.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Well perhaps he presumed that was obvious to anyone who wasn't a dyed in the wool Labour supporter and didn't need to be spelled out in words of one syllable. Being in coalition means having to compromise. What excuse did Blair and Brown have for failing to honour so many of their promises with a massive parliamentary majority by the way?...

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Of course you are correct, however, the fees pledge was rather fundamental to their election manifesto. In fact it was what many students and their parents believed when they voted for them. But their ability to influence policy comes not in the policy making meetings, but at the divisions. They should have had the courage of their convictions and voted against the government. It made them look as if they were more concerned over their positions of perceived power, than they were about their honour and integrity.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Except that the Lib Dems are going to have to work hard to get re-elected at council level and possibly at national level.:erm:

---------- Post added at 22:36 ---------- Previous post was at 22:31 ----------

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11988333

Well that would appear to be that.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

i and all that have seen the videos can clearly see that they was not from the tuition fees demonstration.
i posted them to show that he can stand and that he obviously is not just a innocent man in a wheelchair.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

It is responsible to hold the parties to account somewhat on their pre-election promises. We have to accept that not all of them can be done and there will be an element of mix and match between the parties but the collation is not an excuse for the government to be exempt from being held to account when either party is diverging from what they promised their voters.

I can easily understand why Lib Dem voters feel betrayed that the party they voted for, who were against tuition fees, have now helped pass a policy increasing them.

Personally I dislike manifestos anyway. I don't think a government can be held responsible for promises made when events and circumstances can change over the course of a parliament. They should be less ambitious in terms of what policies to enact and broader in setting out ideals and visions that will influence policy over the course of the government.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

That one doesn't work I'm afraid. Because the pledge states that the signatory will vote against any government which seeks to increase the fees. Not only if they get into power.

Attempting to ignore it will not make it go away. People will not forget the LibDems' betrayal when it comes to the various elections between now and the next general election, which, if the bookies' predictions are anything to go by, will be a good deal sooner than you are hoping for.

---------- Post added at 22:41 ---------- Previous post was at 22:40 ----------

Sorry, but to change the parameters of a signed pledge, after the event, is not a very honourable way of treating your voters.

---------- Post added at 22:44 ---------- Previous post was at 22:41 ----------

Then why did you answer, "yes," to the question, "I would like to see more of this man's actions on the day. Is there any more footage of him?"

---------- Post added at 22:46 ---------- Previous post was at 22:44 ----------


But without them, the electorate would find it very difficult to establish what the different parties stood for and what they intend to do. However, I believe "The Pledge" was a separate element to the manifesto.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

because i thought that I would like to see more of this man's actions on the day and Is there any more footage of him?
was two different questions

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Aah, then I apologise for not being clearer. :o:

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

End of the day if labour hadn't bought in the student fee's there wouldn't have been anything to raise but they did and to nowhere near the hassle there has been lately. I am laughing a bit at your attitude to all this Flyboy when it was labour you weren't so bothered about politicians sticking to what they promised and certainly weren't clamouring like you are now to hit them hard for going back on their word you wouldn't be being a little partisan by any chance would you. Oh and please no more repeats of what nick clegg might or might not have said before the election we all know and most of us get it.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Re the LibDems pledge.....

How is this different from the Labour promises in 1997 (T. Blair, 14th April, Evening Standard "Labour has no plans to introduce tuition fees for higher education") and 2001 (Manifesto - We will not introduce top-up fees and have legislated to prevent them) to not introduce tuition fees, and not to increase them?

Or is there a major difference between a promise, a pledge, and a Manifesto commitment?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I suspect, so far as Flyboy is concerned, that the difference is entirely subjective, selective and heavily biased in one direction. I may be wrong of course.... :D

---------- Post added at 09:48 ---------- Previous post was at 09:30 ----------

Well manifestos and pre election promises are issued on the basis that they're what the party intends to do if they win the election NOT if they only form part of a coalition which by definition necessitates compromise on the part of both parties which has to be thrashed out on the hoof.

You do seem rather fixated on the moral highground when it comes to the delivery of promises by Lib Dems operating in coalition don't you. Oddly, I don't ever recall you applying the same high moral standards to the myriad of cynical pre-election promises issued by Bliar and Brown over the years which, despite having huge parliamentary majorities for most of their tenure they either didn't deliver or simply reneged on. Unlike our current government, they couldn't even argue, in mitigation, that they'd been forced to compromise on policy and were so deep in the economic mire that their their hands were tied. Remind me, what was their excuse for misleading the electorate so cynically again?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

though this may interest you
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11994421

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

What is even more outrageous is that the SLC is saying that they don't know how many, or indeed who, have overpaid, until their employers file their tax returns at the end of their accounting year. :shocked:

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Re Jody McIntyre - CF'ers may find these links of interest.

Mitchell Images

JMcI's blog re Nov 11th

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

He is one seriously deluded fool.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Not quite the 'picture' some folks around here like to present eh? Surprise, surprise.... :rolleyes:

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Only if he takes certain kinds of medication..:D

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

And adding to that the student given a brain injury by a police baton now seems to have been injured by one of the rioters and not the police.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

just read that blog hugh , and found this bit interesting

It would seem that he isn't as disabled as he makes out ,or he's just a liar

I have took the liberty of posting at the end of the blog and inviting him or any of his student followers the right of reply in this thread ,hope no- one minds

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

What a surprise. Professional protester is an anarchic sanctimonious git who can miraculously heal himself of his inability to walk when required for protest. No doubt when he needs to be in his chair to protest he suddenly becomes completely immobile.

In other news the sun rose this morning, went down this evening.

Maybe one day Mr McIntyre will grow up.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

tbf, with a lot of disabilities, there are good and bad days; I believe he is severely disabled, but probably has times when things aren't as bad, and he is more mobile - the reason I posted the link was to point out that he isn't completely wheelchair bound all the time.