Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

He chose the burkha because he knew he wouldn't be challenged in the sense of getting closer than you would in a helmet or balaclava.

I find this part funny.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

On the subject of 'religious items' being used for criminal purposes, perhaps prayer books should be banned as well? ;)

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Although the same concerns could be raised with ANY headgear and are more an indication of the problems of relying on CCTV...

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

And there tends to be signs requiring removal of other types of head/face covering items prior to entry to banks etc.

How comfortable would people be in dealing with a person for a period of time while that person was wearing for example, a ski mask.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Just a ski mask? :D

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

It depends on the activity I suppose. If you're out skiing... :)

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

:bsmack:

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

I know, however iirc at the time I posted I could not find a link to illustrate what I was going on about.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

They may be highly educated, but that doesn't mean they're very clever. If they were, I doubt very much they actually 'believe' but just like to be part of the club.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

So only the stupid can be religious? Interesting theory... :rolleyes:

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

a) I wonder if it's possible to be highly educated without being clever? (I believe it's possible to be clever without being highly educated).

b) Hell of an assumption there.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

They might have even auditioned at one time or another for 'Britains Got Talent' :)

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

its probably not compulsory just preferred :D

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Yes, someone can spend years at school, then college and uni, be very knowledgeable but not very clever, nor wise.
Many educated people are unable to work out how to use a VCR, or put together Ikea furniture, or really think for themselves.
They may know a lot, but they aren't free thinkers.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Once upon a time, a degree course either trained you for a highly complex vocation (for example, in engineering or the sciences), or else it just trained you how to think, the better to equip you for any of a range of less technically specialised roles in life. This, of course, was the good old general arts degree ... History, English Lit and the like.

Sadly these days, the politically motivated rush to get everyone who wants one a bit of paper with 'degree' scrawled on it has led to an explosion of vocational courses and a generation of people who have wasted three years learning a narrow subject (there were some students on TV the other day who were engaged on a three year degree course in how to design well-drained sports pitches - I kid you not) such that they know all the ins and outs of that subject but are woefully lacking when it comes to the general study and analysis skills that are so useful in life.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

That's why I repeated the original statement - "highly educated", rather than just "educated"....

To me (and I should have clarified my interpretation of the phrase, even though I did not originate it in this thread), it means at least a PhD, which requires "original thinking".

I also think there may be confusion between clever/highly educated and having "common sense" - I think those are completely different things; people can have both attributes, but not necessarily.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Indeed, I find that working in Higher Education, the two are often mutually exclusive. I know many very clever people (including Professors) who have little or no common sense.

---------- Post added at 19:38 ---------- Previous post was at 19:36 ----------

One would hope that students would learn how to design good drainage systems (which could drain the sports pitches) as part of a wider, engineering based degree. Sadly, that's not the case.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Then a) I wonder if it's possible to be highly educated without being clever? (I believe it's possible to be clever without being highly educated).
wouldn't and doesn't make sense :confused:

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Only to you, Gary..;)

You seem to have difficulty that the proposition (If A, then B) does not have to mean (If B, therefore A) - it's called the Affirming the Consequent logical fallacy.

Clever is not the same as common sense, so it make perfect sense.:)

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

excuse me while i have a migraine :eh:

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

:erm: i think we need to get back on topic ,i have to keep looking at the header to remind me what the thread is about

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Would a business owner break any laws by insisting on being shown somone's face before allowing them on their premises?
You would not need to insist on them showing their face all the time, only enough to get a description should you need to.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

I cannot believe that this thread is still going, My belief is still the same, to protect to the people of this country, that includes my wife and family, everyone who walks down the street, or into offices, shops, the person's face should be seen, and there should be no excuses.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

So on a winter's afternoon, no one should cover their faces with a scarf?
Bit unfair on the old and frail wouldn't you say Arthur?

Of the 7/7 bombers, how many covered their faces as they walked along streets, onto busses, down to tube stations?

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Don't think so. In fact at least one shop in Glasgow (run by Muslims) insists on just that.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...ing-veils.html

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Your wife & family, presumably, never wear hoods, hats, caps, scarves, balaclavas or use umbrellas.:dozey:

You should be ashamed to want to expose your loved ones to adverse weather, rather than allowing them to use protective clothing. :erm:

- of course you didn't mean that - but if you cannot phrase your posts to address particular points, rather than them seeming to be general rants, you will always get this kind of comeback.

FGS Arthur, say what YOU think, don't just parrot the headlines in the press ...

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Hi Gazfan, I certainly don't stop anyone wearing hat, scarf in cold weather, when was the last time you see any old folk walking down the street with there whole face covered completely, and just showing the eyes.;)

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Earlier this year when there was all that white stuff falling from the sky.


How many of the 7/7 bombers wore veils or tried to cover their face?

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Why?
it's not all about bombs.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

It gives a prime example of how banning the burkha would do sweet FA for security in the street.
Could you not see that Gary?

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Well if you put the 'stereo typical' to one side. no.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

http://audiolab.uwaterloo.ca/~jeffb/thesis/img68.gif
Sorry, my mistake - that's a typical stereo.....:D

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Do you really think it is up to you to stop people wearing what they need to in cold weather Arthur?

I saw many people, old & young, with their whole face covered during the recent winter - some had goggles over their eyes - would you like to explain further what your point is, other than parroting the media?

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

They weren't exactly bothered about being identified.:rolleyes:

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Glad to see the point isn't wasted on you.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

The point being that suicide bombers will still bomb not caring about showing their identity?
that's ok if you are just focusing on the burkha and suicide bombers blowing people up.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

We'll have to wait for Arthur to clarify his statement then :D
Might be some time...

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

You mean like the 21/7 attempted bomber did to escape the UK??

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6378863.stm

---------- Post added at 14:50 ---------- Previous post was at 14:48 ----------

It's not just about security but also about crime in general, I wonder how easy it is to perform identity theft if wearing a burkha? Also burkha wearing robbers have also been recently in the news

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/824926-b...raids-jeweller

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Neither of those crimes occured while walking down the street Kymmy. Nor did Mr Omar use a Burkha to escape the UK (it's always useful to read articles linked to).
As you'll know from your reading of the thread, Arthur said that no one walking down the street should be allowed to do so with their face covered for the security of his family.

You'll also know that it's been said business owners are within their rights to refuse entry unless they can see the person's face.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

So, if we have black robbers - should we ban blacks?

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Yes absolutely, take that black skin of at once :rolleyes:

Don't remember there being this much fuss when hoodies were banned from shopping centres and the like.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

My line is that a burkha hides identity (hence the 21/7 bomber used it to escape and got past security and passport control) and is helpful in performing crimes.. So in respect there should be a way of at very least proving identity in some circumstances (even if it meant showing your face to a security camera when entering a jewelers (camera doesn't have to be manned)

As for banning it in public I'm not in favor of that as what people do is their own concern, but Burkha wearers should be aware and willing to prove identity in secure enviroments

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

There's security and passport control to enter Birmingham??? :D

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

No. Just to exit... ;)

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Woops, my bad, trying to find it but there was also a few attempts at crossing passport control in a burkha one of I believe suceeded.. just can;t find the right news report as the search keeps getting clogged with french and belgium "ban the burkha" reports

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Try the Sun and Mail websites :D

The failure of a security officer to carry out their duties properly is not reason enough to ban an item of clothing.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Is it me or is google getting worse :(

Even Islamic countries have problems ;) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6270626.stm

---------- Post added at 15:19 ---------- Previous post was at 15:17 ----------

Not saying it is and definately didn't say we should ban it (see post #648) what I have said a few times within this thread is that Burka wearers should expect to remove the item when proof of identity is needed ;)

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

I seem to remember WPC Sharon Beshenivsky's killer escaping the country under a burka to...

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Yep he was believed to have gone back home wearing a niqab.

http://sweetness-light.com/archive/m...a-veiled-woman

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Niqab actually, using his sister's passport.
Again, as Kymmy and I and others have said, there is no reason why their faces cannot be shown for security reasons such as at check-in, passport control, security control, shops, banks, jewlers, schools, busses etc.

You may also be aware that a reporter was able to fly all over europe using passports which weren't hers, clearly showing her face as she travelled.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Has there been any instances of people suing or similar because some people have demanded that forms of face covering are removed?

If there hasn't been then surely all that needs to happen is for check-in staff, passport control etc. to grow a pair and demand that where its necessary for ID to be confirmed or faces to be seen that anything obscuring that is removed.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

My understanding is that security staff should ask for any face covering to be removed, and if requested, a private room and female member of staff is available (to confirm identity, nothing else, before MLM see's this).
As with any security system, if the people running can't be bothered, then checks won't take place, and as demonstrated by the reporter who travelled on other people's passports, you don't have to cover your face to get through in that situation.


The only search related complaints which spring to mind are Diana Ross, and that poor woman in the US who was forced to use pliers to remove her nipple piercings behind a screen in the main security area, while the male security officers giggled like little school boys.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Makes you wonder whether other biometric measures (like a finger print/iris scan/voice print) should be implemented as standard for any monetary or security situation.. Then they'd be no arguing that the burka covers the face...

Only problem then is that the Ban the Burka people would have to admit that they're purely against the burka because it's an alien idea to their normal culture ;)

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Is there any substantive proof that he did?

Most, if not all, reports state it was "believed" that he did I'm not sure that it was ever proven to be the case (happy, as ever, to be corrected).

It was not mentioned during the course of the trial, as far as I am aware, and a spokesperson for the police at the time poured scorn on the theory saying "he may also have escaped using a pantomime horse disguise".

Interestingly - despite ministerial and senior political figures calls at the time for an investigation in to how he might have managed this feat - I don't believe any such investigations were held.

That being the case one could quite reasonably assume that the reason no investigations took place into the veil theory was because it didn't actually occur - but was just another example of veil hysteria.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

As I said earlier I don't really have an issue with this oppressive garment concerning security, as no doubt in situations where an identity needs confirming the woman in question, or more likely her very insecure husband, can give consent.
I'm far more concerned with the insecure sad little men who force "their" women to wear this monstrosity, Britain has a long proud history of women fighting for equality down the years and in my opinion this is no different.
Sadly I believe that a lot of people believe they are going to be accused of Islamaphobia if they speak out against the burkha, ridiculous, in 21st century Britain we are content to sit back for fear of offending a very vocal minority whilst there are women being made to wear this sack before being allowed out...this is the real travesty about the burkha.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

French back burka ban as only ONE MP votes against move to outlaw Islamic 'walking coffins'





French MPs today overwhelmingly voted to ban the burka after a senior minister described it as a ‘walking coffin’ and a ‘muzzle’.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl...#ixzz0tb20K21m

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

still has to be ratified in september to become law but i think it will get through

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Wonder what the human rights lawyers will make of this.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

quite a bit of money i should think ;)

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Yes I don't think that's in much doubt... :D

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

a mans right to decorate his property as he deems fit -is that a human right ?;)

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

I have said before, this country is so soft, its like butter, the UK won't enforce this ban, as it doesn't want to offend the females that wears these garments.

BUT what we have to realise is that, this country has been hit badly by terrosism attacks and therefore out safety is paramount, and therefore l believe that Burkas should be banned in this country.

When the female has her photo taken for a passport, she has to have the burka taken off, so why can't she do it in the full view of the public, or does she have a photo taken with the burka on.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

There isn't a ban, there has been a French vote in the lower house in favour of a ban, but it won't become law unless ratified by the Senate.

Even if a law is passed it will be applicable only in France.

In respect of 'offending the females' the putative legislation proposes that the veil is a violation of their rights & seeks to free them from male influence on when it is worn.

Regarding the last paragraph quoted above, perhaps you can enlighten us as to the facts, rather than a mix of conjecture & questions?

I'm all in favour of freeing these women from the obligation to wear a veil if they don't want to, in practice if a law is passed in France it may simply result in them not being allowed out in public?

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Arthur, I think you'll find the reason why the UK won't enforce this ban is because it's French. I would have thought that was obvious?

How many UK terrorists were wearing burkhas Arthur?

Honestly Arthur, were you born with any common sense or has it leaked away over the years? :)
Passport photos require the face to be visible to be accepted by the passport office, when using said passport, the owner is required to show their face. If they require this to be done in private with a female security officer. As to why they can't do it in public, I would have thought that by reading the numerous threads on muslims you'd have learnt that by now.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

I believe they can have their photos taken with the burqha on, it's the niqab which must be removed.

Either way, this proposed legislation is no longer specific to the burqha only but has now been extended to include "any garment" which covers the face.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Hijab is head scarf, and allowed in passport photos as long as it doesn't distort/obscure the face.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Good for the French nation I say, even the French equivalent of the MCB have come out saying that they do not like the full faced burhka, I hasten to add though that they are not in favour of the ban.
One section of our society has been shamefully silent on this oppressive sack, feminists, I cannot understand why we have heard literally nothing from them on this subject, are they frightened they'll be accused of islamaphobia by the usual subjects?
This garment has nothing to do with faith and/or Islam, it originates in a part of the world where certain men tend to view their wives as chattel and don't want other men looking at their property...in my opinion the French have gone down the correct route, this divisive, demeaning sack should have no place in a society where men and women are equal.
I know full well the next point to be raised will be, "what about the women who choose to wear it", if they honestly choose themselves to separate themselves from society and there is no man behind her pulling her strings, she should think about the position she is inflicting on her Muslim sisters who have no choice at all but to wear this monstrosity, by choosing to wear this, and in my opinion make a political statement she gives tacit approval to the weak men who enforce this sack on "their" wives.
The real irony is that there are thousands and thousands of women living in Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Saudi who would love to be shot of a full face burhka, in fact in many parts of the middle east about twenty to thirty years ago many did.
It seems to me that fairly recently that many Islamic countries have turned towards a far more conservative interpretation of Islam, and the women who do wear this awful garment by choice wear it to make a political statement.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

:clap::clap::clap: well said

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

In Iran, Saudi, Egypt, Lebenon, Syria, Jordan, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran the full face covering is not forced upon women by the government.
The bill deals with those who force it upon women, this is good, but by forcing women not to wear it, who truly believe that they should and feel no degradation from it, that is just as bad.
Are you saying that because some women like their partners to take nude photos of them they are giving tacit approval to those men who force their partners to have nude photos taken of them? No of course you aren't because it would be a ridiculous notion, just as your notion that muslim women who chose to cover their faces in public are giving tacit approval to men who force their partners to do likewise.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Possible loop hole:

http://newsarse.com/2010/07/14/frenc...ewsarse.com%29

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Calls grow for burka ban in Britain as French outlaw Islamic 'walking coffins'
By

Support for a ban in Britain has come from Tory backbencher Philip Hollobone and the UK Independence Party.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl...#ixzz0tgWTqwwy

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

i don't think we will ever see a ban in this country ,i do however think we could maybe explore the option making it illegal to force a woman to wear one ,that way those who want to wear it can and those who don't won't have to ..could that work ?

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

If somebody is forcing her to wear it then is there a chance that he might beat her if she refuses by stating the law that she can disobey her husband?

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Isn't the EU going to strike this law down if it ever becomes ratified? Or is it only us that complies with them?

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

if the French dont get there own way they riot-we just sulk;)

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

I always thought it was the joke that the Spanish fishermen and all the French didn't obey EU law...

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

i had considered that ,and yes there is a chance the husband will beat her,the same chance that some men beat their wives when they get drunk ,but we already have laws against that and as with any other woman it is upto them to report it

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

It might sound simple enough, but would a muslim woman defy her husband just because the law is on her side when needs be? it wouldn't just be her husband she's going against. it would be all the males in the family and close to the family.

I think she'll just carry on wearing it. she wouldn't go against them.
forget it. it's a stupid idea :)

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

In that same piece a French Muslim buisnessman has pledged to sell property up to one million euros to pay the fine for burhka wearing women, what a surprise that a Muslim man is prepared to pay out nearly a million pounds so as to keep women in this monstoscity.:td::td:

Come on Xaccers that comparison is pretty weak, having lived in Saudi you are more aware than most that many men enforce the wearing of this degrading garment on their wives, surely you don't believe that every woman in the UK who is wearing one of these things does it of their own free will?
Of course not, there are weak insecure men who will not let their women out of the house unless they are encased from head to toe, as I said earlier women who choose to wear a burhka are actively contributing in keeping these women shackled and cut off from the rest of society.
As far as I'm concerned misplaced feelings of liberty regarding the right to wear a burhka are precisely that, entirely misplaced. In the rush to defend the few who choose to wear it you are making it even harder for the oppressed to get shot of it.
I regard myself as a pretty liberal person, and if this was just a case of religious freedom then fair enough, but you know as well as I this cloak is a cultural garment not religious, so what about the woman who have no choice, do they just grin and bear it because a few women want to make a political statement.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

From memory of the shops, streets around Kilo5 and corniche, the majority of women showed their faces.

Many women choose to cover their face in public because they believe that is what their religion requires of them. Whether it does or does not, it is their personal religion.
How is punishing someone for following their religious beliefs with a fine and what, prison if they don't pay the fine, any different to someone forcing those who do not wish to cover their faces to wear the veil?
My understanding of the French ban is that if a woman wears a veil, she's fined, and if they can prove she's been forced into it, her husband would be fined too.
So if she is being forced to wear it otherwise she'd be housebound, but chooses to protect her husband either through fear or loyalty, she's punished.
How is that justice?

You can say women only choose to wear it to make a political statement til you're blue in the face. The fact is most chose to wear it because they believe it complies with their religion, not to make a political statement.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Waste of time even contemplating a ban. The Government hasn`t got the guts.

If they did, they would ban it.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

btw, what is the basis for the "walking coffin" description?

Does a burqa have handles on side, and it's carried by six people?

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

It doesn't even have flat sides and made out of wood.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Yes ban the bhurkas they do hide the identity and give criminals an opportunity to hide. The sooner they are banned the better Phut

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Are you for banning crash helmets being worn more than 10cm from a motorbike?
Or people covering their faces with a scarf on a cold winter's day?
Ban sunglasses and beards too would you?

All those things are more common and more likely to be used by criminals, so shouldn't they be banned too?

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

It always makes me luagh when when people complain about if they ban Burkas, they should ban helmets etc,

Anything that covers the face should be banned, unless for medical reasons, they have to wear something, you have to feel safe walking down the road.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

One of the reasons as to why I always wear an open flip helmet, petrol stations, banks, offices..etc.. already impose a no closed crash helmet rule and being a courier it was a pain in the backside, most were happy though to allow you in if they could see your full face..

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

That's on private property though. It's already been made clear that shops and other businesses can legally refuse entry to anyone not willing to show their face.
Should a biker be fined because they walked from their front door down the street to their bike with their helmet on?

---------- Post added at 16:47 ---------- Previous post was at 16:47 ----------

Why are you so intimidated by it Arthur?

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Oh no, he's doing the little old ladies with scarfs on again :D

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Well Arthur is doing the "if your face is covered you're going to KILL EVERYONE!!!!!!!" again.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Naughty Arthur. exaggerating about people KILLING everyone :erm: :)

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Champion of UK burka ban declares war on veil-wearing constituents

A Conservative MP says he will refuse to hold meetings with Muslim women wearing full Islamic dress at his constituency surgery unless they lift their face veil.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...s-2028669.html

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

If they are not near/going to/from their bike then I don't see the difference..
Most who wear a crash hemlet for any other non-legit purpose is probably upto no good.

The difference here though is that someone wearing a crash helmet wandering down the high street is more likely to be viewed with suspicion..

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

So you've never had to park your bike a coupled of doors down and on a cold day put your helmet on as you left the house?
Or got off your bike just to get some cash out of an ouside ATM without taking your helmet off? That happens loads outside Asda over here.
Do you believe that doing the above should be illegal?

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Any person walking down a high street wearing a full face motorcycle helmet would be viewed by the majority of people as highly suspect and could lead to that person being stopped and questioned by a Police Officer and rightly so.

your other examples do not really prevent facial recognition software from scanning the face but a helmet does and so does a burka.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

Um, what facial recognition software is scanning our streets?

How is covering your face with a beard and dark sunglasses, or a scarf any different to a veil?

As I've said, we have many bikers who don't bother taking their helmets off when going to some outside ATMs for cash, and it causes no problems. Why should it be made illegal?

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

With the veil comes a cloak. the whole lot is a disguise.
you can look at it in all different ways. someone who wears just a veil, or someone who wears a chicken outfit including the head.

anybody could be inside the chicken outfit.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

A burka and a full face helmet hides the persons identity but a motorcyclist will remove their helmet in public and not wear them into a shop or a bank as they will be requested to remove it.

A person wearing a burka can enter a shop or a bank without removing it, in a place such as a bank if they should have to remove the burka in order to be served and this can be done in a private room away from the general public.

With the amount of cameras now in use in this country we cannot know how any are being used for covert surveillance and any that are would be run through facial recognition software.

Re: Ban the burkha ?
 

A bank or shop can refuse to allow in anyone covering their face with anything.
As I've said, there are many situations where bikers don't bother removing their helmets in public because 1) they're in public 2) there's no need.

Careful, they may have just read that you know that! They're after you! Grab the kids and run for the hills! Oh bugger, I've told them where you'll be, sorry!
I'd offer you some dark glasses and a false beard, or a scarf to cover your face, but apparently their recognition software can see through that so you'd best buy a veil, it's the same as a scarf covering your face, but it foils the software somehow :D