Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

You speak as if fox hunting is the sole example of animals suffering painful deaths for the sake of human comfort or expediency.

You have the right to trap or poison a mouse or a rat, do you not?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Doesn't mean I'm going to do it though.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

The vast majority will agree with me that letting a pack of animals tear a creature to shreds is barbaric as are the rituals of blooding a new person in a hunt.

I think it is more a question of why would anyone agree with you a bloodsports supporter who thinks barbarism should have a face in a modern society.

Hunting animals for sport is sick and it sits with bear baiting, badger baiting and hare coursing as sick bloodsports.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Masque, you are making assertions and backing them up with an appeal to popularity. That is not a logical argument. Having people agree with you does not make your argument correct.

Could you please define your use of the word 'barbaric' and explain how it is relevant in the context of fox hunting. Please also remember that repetition is no substitute for an argument.

---------- Post added at 17:04 ---------- Previous post was at 17:03 ----------

What do you think of people who do it?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Having attended hunts in my younger days trying stop them and watched the barbarism of the hunt and the pure unadulterated pleasure that the huntsman get when they watch a fox get ripped limb from limb is something i personally never want to see again. The way they chant and scream is disgusting.

It was the Cheshire hunt i was trying to stop btw.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I don't agree with it. Humane traps are available and should be used IMO.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Sirius, forgive me but if you attended the hunts with a view to stopping them, I think it's fair to say that any description you give of the events, and your feelings about them, are not those of an impartial observer.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

So letting a pack of animals tear a tired scared animal to pieces for the gratification of a baying horde is not barbaric in your eyes then it saddens me to think that is your or anyone elses way of thinking.

Where is the fun and enjoyment in watching such a spectacle happen and I disbelieve anyone who says they only hunt for the thrill of the ride.

Can you explain how someone could actually enjoy watching such events take place and actually enjoy it.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Masque, I've asked you to define what you think barbaric is ... but all you're doing is telling me you're sad that I don't seem to share your definition.

I would be very grateful if you could help move the discussion on a little. I totally get that you find words like 'baying hordes' and 'gratification' satisfying when describing what you see in fox hunting. You really don't need to keep repeating yourself. In any case, as I've already said, repetition is not a substitute for an argument.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Very much says it all.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

indeed

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

In which case I'm sorry to say but I believe you're living in some sort of fairy tale, rather than the real world.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Please explain? I'm firmly in the real world.

There is nothing wrong with compassion.

What's "fairy tale" about catching a mouse humanely and setting it free in a wild location? :confused:

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Agreed


I have always stated i am against them.

I have said before i attended them.

I even ended up in front of the beak after one of them because i retaliated after a bloke on a horse hit me with his crop therefor i tried to put it where the sun does not shine. Unfortunately he had witnesses who gave statements in his favour and i did not because no one was close enough to see what happened.

Would i do it again HELL yes

So NO i am not impartial but my side of this debate is still justified like any other.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

yes we do ,we also have the right to trap and poison foxes ,we just can't hunt them ,torture them or treat them inhumanely ,incidently the same as with rats and mice.If this was all about fox/pest control then hunting wouldn't even be an issue, after all it is the most ineficient way to kill an animal and a most efficient way to injure people ,horses and dogs

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I am against fox hunting, but I am also against statements like and double standards.

I am fairly sure fish suffer when they are caught, but, not being fluffy and Disneyfied (except for Nemo), there appears to be less (if any) of an outcry about them.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

And this is the bit that makes Fox Hunting wrong. It is barbaric and should be for ever outlawed.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Agreed

BTW i dont go fishing :LOL:

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Very humane to set a house mouse free in the wild, it'd be kinder to poison it rather than it be ripped apart by a rat wouldn't it, ooops I seem to have got caught up in the emotive language, lets hope it doesn't become such a habit I have to include such sayings in every post...

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

It's fairy tale because you are arbitrarily according the mouse a status that you do not accord to spiders, houseflies or the germs down your toilet, assuming you clean your toilet with bleach or similar.

The mouse is fluffy and cute and looks like the ones you see in the pet shop. It tugs at your heart strings and you react to it on that basis.

The farmer who needs to keep his yard free of rats, on the other hand, does not have the luxury of trapping them in a little perspex box and driving them, by the dozen, out into the fields to let them go. The farmer knows that they, or their descendants, will soon re-infest his farm, or one of his neighbours farms, and that killing them with lethal trapping mechanisms - or, more likely, poison - is the only practical solution to the problem. Neither of these techniques is guaranteed to be instantaneous or pain-free for the animal. In fact, I've camped close to a farm yard and listened to rats squealing after eating warfarin, so I can say for certain it's not pain-free.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

That's a whole other argument... I think they do suffer, but many argue they don't feel pain in the same way?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

But why is it a different argument - surely it should be the same argument for all creatures?

Re different pain

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Whether they do feel pain is what I mean, Hugh. As I say I think they do.

I think because they make no sound / look of "pain" people assume they don't feel it

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Actually Chris i would say it does .If enough people agree it is inhumane then it is said to be inhumane .I think is is agreed that foxes can be a pest it's just how we go about dealing with it .Enough people think that hunting with dogs is inhumane so it was made illegal ,isn't that how democracy works ?.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

The claim that hunting with dogs is 'inefficient' is an assertion that is frequently and loudly repeated by the anti-hunt lobby, and one which they seem to hope everyone will buy in to if they repeat it loudly and frequently enough.

It's an assertion that sadly doesn't get challenged often enough. So I think it's fair for me to re-post something I said in this thread back in March:

The link is well worth reading. I would be very grateful if some of the people who have been so passionate to assert that hunting with dogs is 'inefficient' and 'unnatural' and 'inhuman' could give a thoughtful, reasoned response to the expert opinion it contains.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Absolutely, that's why we left Europe and have capital punishment back...

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

You are being a little patronising there, Chris. :)

Rats are a real problem for farmers and yes it would be totally impractical to catch are release each one remotely.

I think there needs to be more research in to better ways of dealing with such infestations.

I don't personally have the answer to that, but riding on horse-back with hounds would do no good ;) :D

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Not really - we don't just live in a democracy. We live in a modern Western liberal democracy. That means politicians are not supposed go around using their five-year lease on power to make wholesale, mandatory changes on the lifestyles of citizens. Criminalizing a widely enjoyed and historic pastime was counter to almost every convention and tradition of our Parliament, which is why it took such a vast amount of Parliamentary time to get it into law.

Further to that, my objection to the word 'inhumane' is that it is too often bandied about, to the point that its force and currency has been devalued. The human race is far larger than the electorate of the United Kingdom. I think it's fair for people to campaign on issues of acceptability or unacceptability within our society, but what is human, or inhuman, really should be reserved for bigger, global issues.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

LOL. Urban...you really don't read my posts, do you? Why do I have to be left-wing about this? This subject cover the whole political spectrum. There are many right-wing posters on here who detest the idea of running an innocent animal to exhaustion just to revel over its mutilation.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I'm not being patronising - I'm pointing out a logical inconsistency in your position. You accept that trapping and releasing farmyard rats is impractical, but that simply underlines the inconsistency in your argument. How do you balance your compassion for animals feeling pain with that impracticality?

---------- Post added at 17:47 ---------- Previous post was at 17:42 ----------

I do read the other posts on here, and that's why I am aware of your scarcely concealed joy at getting one over on those you perceive to be from the upper classes. Please don't try to use the political sympathies of other anti-hunt posters in this thread as a fig leaf to disguise your personal prejudice.

Re 'innocent': please give more detail on your understanding of the concepts of guilt and innocence as applied to non-human species.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

The argument is about fox hunting and not rats or fish! :D There currently isn't any real alternative in controlling rat populations, so I can't campaign for their use. I can campaign for more reasearch though.

There is no inconsistancy in my argument at all, although you have been deviating the subject somewhat with rats.

Why do you want to see foxes ripped to shreads by dogs by a load of people on horse-back baying for blood?

It may be a old tradition, but so was ducking "witches" in the mill pond and hanging.



Anyway... Happy new year for later, Chris and everyone in this thread!. Have a good one. :drunk:

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Where are the double standards?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Complaining about 'deviation' is the last refuge of people who try to hold a logically inconsistent position on an issue. ;)

Our society is not divided into silos. It is one great big overlapping whole. The values you claim to hold in one area, if they are sincere, should affect your view of everything else as well. If they do not translate away from the immediate topic of discussion, then it is reasonable in the context of a logical argument to question how sincerely held your views really are - especially if you claim to want to see other people adopt those views. After all, why should anyone else buy into your position if you haven't bought into it as completely as you first seemed?

I don't have any desire to take part in a fox hunt. Neither do I have any desire to see our parliamentary democracy so casually used to suddenly criminalise the behaviour of hundreds of thousands of people.

Likewise :beer:

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Just finished having a look through the link Chris ,it does make interesting reading and does give good arguments in favour of traditional fox hunting although i can't help feeling it could be seen as a tad biased as all the evidence they put forward comes back to fox hunting being a good thing ,and coming from vets who earn a great deal of money from hunts could be seen as biased .Having said that it would be very hard to find a unbiased viewpoint in this debate ,every thing i find to counter the argument for fox hunting comes from animal rights groups which are equally as biased and one sided

I did find this little gem from the Research and library service of the northern Ireland assembly which since fox hunting is still legal in NI could be seen as the closest to being unbiased i feel


full report here
http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/researc...2010/12310.pdf

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I would say there is little in the NI report that supports the arguments of the hunters.

All quotes taken directly from http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/researc...2010/12310.pdf as per previous post

Impact of hunts

Effects

As described in the report this is due to the increase in trail hunting and other artificial hunts.

Economy

There is then a discussion of the Pro's and Con's of a repeal of the Ban.

--------

So No Cultural and No Economic impacts of the ban as they have already moved to artificial hunts. In fact there has been an overall increase in hunt take up since the move to artificial hunts!!!

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

A question sprung to mind whilst i was reading that and you also have picked up on the point that hunt membership has increased since the ban .Does this mean that people who were put off joining a hunt because it meant they would be involved in killing a fox have now decided to join because no killing is involved ..in theory .

What i feel this report and the one that Chris linked to has highlighted is that the regulations introduced where ill thought out for the purpose they were intended for ,it's full of loop holes and very few prosecutions have resulted .Also the report seems to rubbish claims that the ban will/has resulted in mass culling of fox hounds ,slaughter of horses and mass unemployment ,indeed the report seems to suggest that the hunting industry is thriving .As far as i can tell the ban did the hunting industry a favour

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Sorry, I've just had a read through the link that Chris provided and all I can say is its nicely worded and submitted excrement that is highly biased to the single point of view through emphasis and omission neither of which is scientifically incorrect (just frowned upon).

It's a loaded paper, highlighting the word Natural on all the Natural Fight & Flight phrases was nice but the same could have been typed for somebody tracking human quarry. Also the nicely highlighted fragments supporting his standpoint a lot of which I have quoted below was also nice.

Intro/Rationale

Fair enough.

True

True, except farm animals can and should be protected from predation.

True. This is a fact of life and happens daily to the human population as well as all animals. Replace "fox numbers and the other quarry species" with "any species" and you still get a true and factual statement

Ding Ding Ding the report has just cocked up. This report details these types of hunting only which incidentally means it only touches on other methods of fox control

Autumn Hunting

See later for the "less attractive" apparently

No evidence given, I will leave this as a given for further quotes of this type.

So the fox running for its life is natural and therefore is humane :rolleyes:

Decision on the Kill is deferred to a "See Below"

Winter Hunting

So a number of the majority of these foxes go to ground and if the farmer wants are shot anyway. Anybody think of tracking dogs with scent hounds and a shotgun in the first place!?!

All animals have a flight reflex so hunting all animals is good? If I came hunting you I would think that you would display all of these points. Saying something does something to avoid dieing when you try and kill it is not a defence that it is not cruel.

So, being killed is no more than being knackered after a run, care to test that?

Next its not hunted to exhaustion, only until the endurance trained hounds can over-run it. How exactly do they know its not exhausted - No Evidence Given

So evidence of quick death is nothing but apparently if a fox is knackered it does not feel pain.:rolleyes:

The kill and cause of death

Heavily debatable. No Evidence is given in the paper.

What follows is an extensive description of how other animals behave in a slaughterhouse!?! How exactly has what is going to happen to the animals made it back to the fields? Telepathy?. Also do they know what the blood means?

So admitted to only two vets submitting cases. In 2/3 cases by cervical dislocation which takes how long? (No Evidence) versus 1/3 having there throats/abdomens ripped out which is almost instantaneous apparently.

Further have been excluded because hounds have been stopped from mking a quick kill apparently.

Terrier culling or Digging

Not suprising.

So a fox that had gone to ground and was being dug out and would know it was being dug out still was more calm than a normally hunted fox.

Other methods only appear to have had passing analysis

Shooting

No Evidence. What is the Percentage? What is it with other animals? A gun will miss just as do hounds minus the trauma (See Winter Hunting)

As opposed to the pursuit? It could be argued that being trapped reactions are just as "natural" as the pursuit reactions.

So down side has been heavily reported reported (not done for hunting with dogs). Cost and the fact people will not follow the rules are the major concerns with this type of hunting.

Rest of the paper is covered in my previous post on this subject.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

No because they are twice as likely to be on a hunt where a fox is killed, in fact I am sure I remember hearing one hunt killed as many foxes on its first day of hunting once the ban was brought in than it did in the entire previous year...

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Thats a pretty old report " Saturday 20 November 2004 " wonder if that's the same now ?.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

That's not killing with dogs ,it's a different type of hunt, killling the fox with a gun is different to killing with a dog .Most of the objections to fox hunting were because of the use of dogs to carry out the kill

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Correct. I have no objection to the control of the fox population, I have a problem when its done for the sole gratification and pleasure of those on horses. If you have seen the way some of these so called human beings act at the kill you would be sick.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Exactly it is barbaric and distasteful to say the least and not the way people in a modern society should act getting their kicks from bloodlust on such a low level.

I also find it pathetic that people who support this so called sport try to be emotive and say it will cause loss of employment for people, they could find other employment as hunting wild animals in this way is wrong on so many levels.

If you support fox hunting then give a realistic explanation why an animal should be torn apart for someones gratification and why you should be smeared with its blood on your first hunt, explain it in a way that a normal person can understand as most arguments in support are surreal to say the least

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Interesting turn of phrase from the master of hounds in Daddy's link

"

---------- Post added at 11:03 ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 ----------

Most of those claims have have been blown out of the water as evidenced in my previous link to the NIA report on the effects of hunting

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

They will use any means to try and make this sick spectacle in some way respectable and its smacks of desperation.

---------- Post added at 11:04 ---------- Previous post was at 11:03 ----------

They will always try and use employment as a reason as they think it appeals to people on an emotive level.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

The title of this thread is a bit of a misnomer as I think any chance of it being reintroduced is very slight.

Surely a thread entitled No to Fox Hunting would be a more positive start to the New Year and a new decade.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

If people want to hunt foxes with dogs.........................let them.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

So if people want to hunt man with dogs should we let them. ;) :LOL:

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I would rather hunt the huntsmen/women with dogs to see how they like it, seems fair to me.:D

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Why ,any reasons or is that just a random remark

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Killing with one dog and I guess it doesn't make much difference to the fox or the people chasing it considering they don't see it killed...

---------- Post added at 16:40 ---------- Previous post was at 16:34 ----------

Worse I'd say, not a bad article even if the Mail couldn't help itself in places from sensationalising. I never knew this either

And far more pregnant vixens are being killed, too. When a marksman takes aim or a snare is set, it is almost impossible to tell if the victim is an expectant female.

Yet, in one of nature's strange quirks, a vixen gives off no scent when she is pregnant. So, ironically, pregnant females were completely safe from the hunts as the hounds could not follow her trail.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ular-ever.html

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

The Veterinary Association for Wildlife Management has long been considered the "veterinary" mouthpiece for the pro-hunting lobby and the Countryside Alliance. Their opinion is not considered to be balanced nor unbiased.

Not once in that report do they state who the four hundred are, how their opinion has been sought and what methods they have used to canvas these anonymous members.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

The difference being you don't send many dogs, multiple horses and many huntsmen off to catch mice or rats.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Well it's as just as well they considered all of that when they banned dog fighting, bear and badger baiting and cock fighting, isn't it.

---------- Post added at 17:08 ---------- Previous post was at 17:03 ----------

Really? Such as where? I don't think I have written anything about class (apart maybe a little joke here and there and I can't remember that either).

Innocent = without guilt, undeserving of action taken.

---------- Post added at 17:20 ---------- Previous post was at 17:08 ----------

Seems to me that the ripping of foxes to death was inefficient.

---------- Post added at 17:23 ---------- Previous post was at 17:20 ----------

So, it wasn't pest control before, despite their usual excuses.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Yep shootings much better, especially if you can get a pregnant one...

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

And how did hunting with dogs ever make that distinction?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I would heavily disagree with that statement ,it is a known fact in the foxhunting community that pregnant foxes give off a reduced scent ,not no scent .The hounds are specifically bread for the ability to pick up these scents and are very valuable animals with the right pedigree

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Yet, in one of nature's strange quirks, a vixen gives off no scent when she is pregnant. So, ironically, pregnant females were completely safe from the hunts as the hounds could not follow her trail.

Or reduced scent at any rate according to Marty...

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

At the end of the day the huntsmen have nothing to complain about .A badly thought out piece of legislation has failed miserably to do what it intended .It has however managed to revive a tradition/industry that was in decline and is now enjoying unprecedented levels of membership ...so that has dispelled the myth of mass unemployment ,mass culling of dogs/horses.Many more foxes are being killed according to the huntsmen,so that has dispelled the myth of a fox population explosion and it means the pest is being controlled .So really the pro hunting lobby should shut up and realise when they have a good thing or we could reverse the legislation and take the hunts back to the position they were in 4 yrs ago

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Incorrect on two counts. First of all vixens give off less scent, when pregnant, no no scent at all. Secondly, if this were true, the dogs flushing out will not be able to spot her either, therefore the gamekeeper would have nothing to shoot.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I have given my reasons many, many times in this thread.

The ban on hunting with dogs was not equitable as other forms of hunting with animals is is still alllowed.

The ban was not brought in for the welfare of the fox but instead to put an end to a countryside pursuit enjoyed by, in the opinion of the government of the time, wealthy upper class countryside toffs (most likely to be tory voters).

Thers's no point going round in circles.

My opinion is that the ban should be overturned, I doubt it will be.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

And this is the reason for supporting the return of fox hunting???????

The logic is astounding.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

No, this is the reason.

The logic is sound.

A vindictive law, resticting the liberty to follow a countryside pursuit, and purely for that reason, as I said the welfare of the fox was the not the motive behind the law so why introduce the law? if not just to be punitive against a certain demographic

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Isn't it odd that vast majority of those who are citing class and partisanship are the pro-hunting lobbyists.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Lets bring backh Dog fighting shall we? Infact we might as well bring bear bateing back while we are at it.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I also think the same as Pierre on this issue BUT I don't condone cruelty to animals neither do I personally support fox hunting.It was purely a socialists against the toffs issue for many that voted for the bill IMHO.

I note that the next hunting/cruelty issue that was on the anti-sports agenda has never materialised as a bill mainly because angling is an egalitarian sport, supported and followed by many from all strata and levels and occupations in society.Getting support for a ban on angling would be next to impossible.;)

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Indeed it would be, which would be a crying shame, in my opinion.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

The ban should never be overturned as hunting of animals for sport in this way has no place in a modern society, would you like bear baiting to be brought back as well.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Only if we could bring back kids under 10 working in the mines, as they were both banned in the early 1800's....

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

As we have no mines that is rather unlikely.;)

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

And I assume from that any form of fishing is abhorrent to you..even that which does not involve hooks?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Yes..

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

are you a veggie ?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Well tough luck.You are never going to win that war...Fish don't look cute enough.

Mind if you went with the endangered species you might get my vote.The way we have over fished stocks is disgraceful.

I will however defend anglers who eat their catch OR return their catch back into their environment.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

So i was correct ,a random remark with no basis in fact

All the facts prove that hunting is enjoyed by people from all walks of life more so since the ban ,so it is no longer a sport solely for the upper classes ,if it was before
more foxes are being killed ,so the pest control aspect is being satisfied better than before the ban
employement in the hunting industry has remained at the same level or in some cases a slight up turn

In short the hunting industry is doing better now than before the ban

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Thatcher closed them all.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Except for the ones she didn't.....

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

as for the others i like to think she mothballed them for the future ;)

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

To keep the foxes in, so they would be safe.....

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Yes, I have been for very nearly thirty years.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Are we counting open caste ones as they were not targeted.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

A giant fox, that is twice the size of a normal specimen, has been captured in Kent, sparking fears that the animals are growing larger because of ‘easy living’ on bins and scraps.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/ear...Maidstone.html

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

http://www.ukcoal.com/dm-locations

Here are 5 that are still working.

There are other deep mines still operating that don't belong to UK Coal

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Would you care to back up any of what you have said with some "factual data", especially on the economic fortunes of the fox hunting industry?

You'll forgive me, if I don't take your word for it?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

you wont have to if you read the previous posts
i've already posted the data it is here http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/researc...2010/12310.pdf

found in post #640

for evidence of more foxes being killed then you read Chris' post #631

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

broken link

Which is a shame as I'd have liked to have read what the Northern Ireland assembly found, and whether it applied to all of the UK.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

i'll find it again and repost as it does serve to dispel a few myths and seems the most unbiased info i can find ,as i refuse to go to antihunt sites for obvious reasons

---------- Post added at 13:27 ---------- Previous post was at 13:25 ----------

http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/researc...2010/12310.pdf

there you go

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

try this

http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/researc...2010/12310.pdf

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Not the greatest piece of research.

As the basis for most of the information in this report are articles from the BBC website, telegraph and guardian and not from official sources.

The only credible source is the burns report.

Anyway the overwhelming impression that this report gives is that hunts are carrying on as normal killing as many foxes as they did before the ban, which heralds the question, Why have a ban in the first place?

It's plainly obvious that it is not being enforced, which just backs up my view that the ban was brought in as a smite against a certain class, to show a little muscle, and in reality the government don't really care about the welfare of the fox as they and the police are quite happy to let the practice continue.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

The Burns report was produced before the ban. It is hardly a definitive study of how the hunting industry has fared since the act.

I think you have your contexts mixed up. The number of foxes being killed is not an indication of the method. In fact, more foxes are being killed by shooting, than by dogs. You are right though, that in the majority of cases the act is not being enforced. That is not the fault of the act itself, but by the lack of priority to which the various police forces around the UK place on its enforcement. That is caused by, in some part, a conflict of interest in some senior police officers. Around here, the local Chief Superintendent is a senior member of the hunt, there has been suggestions that the police ignore their behaviour because of his involvement. Nonetheless, any failures on the police's behalf is not any reason to ignore the law and does not make the Hunting Act wrong.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Which is the point I was making.............................

The report, or rather the articles that the report refers to, infer that that as many foxes are being killed by hunts as before the ban, with the bans using the excuse that the hounds are latching onto scents of foxes and once that happens they can't stop them.

It's a sloppy law, brought in for the wrong reasons.

That is my only problem with it. It has not been brought in for the welfare of the fox. That's the bottom line.

And if it hasn't been brought in for that reason, then why introduce it.

It has been brought in for the wrong reasons and that is why I consider it wrong.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

well as i pointed a few pages ago it is hard to find a truly unbiased piece of research on this subject as all the research is commissioned by groups with a certain agenda .The difference with this report is the NI assembly are to a certain extent removed from any bias so don't need to pick and choose which research to publish .
It is notable that you reject the research in this report despite being pro-hunting ,i find that curious ,i would like to know why you think fox hunting in it's pre ban form should be re introduced

---------- Post added at 09:24 ---------- Previous post was at 09:20 ----------

Good point, it must also be pointed out that a lot of the hunting takes place under the exceptions part of the law ,which does make it lawfull

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I'm neither "Pro" or "Anti" hunting.

But I am Anti the fox hunting ban as it was a poor, poor piece of legislation that targeted a very specific activity and demographic.

If an all encompassing hunting act was introduced that banned all forms of hunting and trapping, that would get my support.

It's like introducing a hand gun ban, but only banning pearl handled colt 45's.

You ban all hand guns or non at all, should be the same with hunting/ trapping.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

You certainly are full of contradictions, aren't you. How can the current law have the sole purpose of annoying the upper classes if it achieves nothing it says it does. Surely, by introducing a blanket ban, as you suggest, it is more likely to have its basis in bias and discrimination, that you accuse the current law to be.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

Surely it's the law that is contradictory not me?

That's the fault of the law makers, as I said it's a bad law.

Badly motivated
Badly Drawn Up
Badly Introduced
Badly Enforced.

The fact that it is more of a hindrence than a ban, says more about the government than anyone else.

The intention was there, the fact that the government was so inept as to properly implement it, is secondary.

How so?

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

I think you mis-understand the purpose of the ban ,it was introduced to remove the pleasure aspect of running a fox with a pack of hounds and letting them rip it apart for enjoyment ,the law also extends to other forms of hunting such deer,mink and hares .The old excuse was that fox hunting was just pest control so what about deer,mink and hares are they a pest ? no it was the enjoyment of the hunt ,now in most cases the hunt is still enjoyed without the brutal kill by dogs at the end
As for targeting a specific demographic that is just totaly wrong, people from all walks of life took part in hunting pre ban and still do

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

On the contrary, I understand perfectly why is was introduced.

Other forms of "hunting with dogs". They had to specify it somehow. They specifically wanted to ban "fox hunting" but realised that if they just specified "fox hunting" it would be blindingly obvious what they were doing. Therefore they expanded the idea to "hunting with dogs".

This however extended the ban to encompass other sports such a Hare Coarsing, which was not their original intention.

It's a blood sport, nothing more, as any form of hunting/trapping/fishing is.

Not according to that report you posted earlier, that report highlights that as many foxes are killed by hunts now as before the ban.

The perception though, to the urban Labour voter that loves the cuddly fox, is that the evil rich countryside landowners that have 2 range rovers, 10 horses and a large manor house were/are the ones out the slaughtering basil brush.

And that's why Labour went after them.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

No it wasn't a way of hiding the true intent ,it was a way of trying to make a law that was correct and fair ,this has been tried many times over the years and with many different governments and has proved to be problematic

Not true at all
Many fishermen cacth fish to eat ,i myself have trapped/shot rabbits/pheasants to eat .That in no way can be classed as "blood sport"


All that proves is that the sport of foxhunting was needless ,most (not all ) foxes are shot ,they can be flushed out using no more than 2 dogs ,there are also loop holes and exceptions to the law which the huntsmen exploit ,that will happen with any law

Whatever the intentions of the legislation and the motives behind them(which are debatable) does not negate the facts that in some aspects the law has proved benficial,in other aspects it may be found wanting i accept that ,it does not mean it should be repealed ,enforced a bit more and tweaked a bit but not repealed

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

And by the same token many fishermen don't.

I knew as soon as I played the "fishing card" that this would be the response.

Fish go through the trauma of being caught, de hooked, and then thrown into a "keep net" usually, if the angler's any good, with many other fish with very little room.

The trauma of all this kills many fish. Sport course fishing for the likes of roach, rudd, perch etc is a blood sport - these fish are not kept for eating an many die in the process.

Before the ban many people used to hunt hares & rabbits with dogs for eating - they are no longer allowed to do this.

You say you have trapped rabbits what kind of trap did you use? out of intrest.

Sport fishing is needless
Hunting with hawks is needless

All hunting, fishing and trapping is "needless" in this day and age.

It should be repealed or all encompassing.

I just want rid of the ambiguity and hypocrisy.

Re: Bring Back Fox Hunting
 

to a certain extent i would agree ,i don't fish and never have apart from the odd time my grandad took me .There is also the ongoing debate of what fish actually feel pain wise which is one reason why the ban only dealt with mammals

a simple cage

Quite agree if you insert the word some .I disagree with blood sport for entertainment that is the distinction that the hunting act tries to have .It recognizes that some hunting is required for the welfare of the species and pest control .How of a pest a fox is is again debatable