Re: The existence of God
 

Interesting that you prefer to see it in terms of conflict. From where I'm sitting, most people in this thread, whatever their views, are simply here to exchange ideas and experiences.

If you were thinking that anyone was going to be persuaded to change their beliefs/views/opinions as a result of this thread then I think you have been a tad ... well, let's say optimistic.

---------- Post added at 23:37 ---------- Previous post was at 23:37 ----------

Well, that explains a lot. I think perhaps it's gone to your head a bit.

Re: The existence of God
 

Well no ... the non believers take the so called 'good book' and point out the improbability of its 'stories' and then the believers avoid the question and go off on a tangent. Repeat.

Snakes don't have vocal cords .... NEXT.

Re: The existence of God
 

Not read the thread lately but this post caught my eye...

Its always like that around here though.

Whenever some religious person in the world says something someone doesn't like, chances are they come straight on here and start a thread condemning it. When religion does some good (congregation comes together and raise money to save something), said people are a bit more reticent.

Said my piece, i'm off to stone homosexuals and start a war...

Re: The existence of God
 

Wait for me. what's the title of the thread?

Re: The existence of God
 

I am probably the biggest supporter of the morals that the Christian religion teaches. :)

Re: The existence of God
 

Pity.

Re: The existence of God
 

You can't walk on water with bare feet would have been a good one Chris :)

you can't do it in sandals either.

Re: The existence of God
 

Well, originally I was going to post that a dead man coming back to life after spending a couple of nights in a tomb is a more obvious target than a talking snake. Especially as only one of them is the keystone of the entire religion (clue - it's not the snake).

But I thought I'd be wasting my time, so I didn't bother. ;)

Re: The existence of God
 

What if he was in a coma?
he could have have come out of the coma and let himself out. did they say what they thought he died of? they could have mis-diagnosed him.

Re: The existence of God
 

He came out of a 36-hour coma, unwrapped himself, groped his way to the mahoosive rock sealing the tomb entrance and just rolled it away? Then fought off the guards?

You've been watching too many A-Team re-runs. ;)

---------- Post added at 01:06 ---------- Previous post was at 01:04 ----------

As far as cause of death goes, well being nailed to a wooden beam and planted in the ground for a few hours would tend to do that to a man.

Re: The existence of God
 

Nah .... the talking snake 'story' puts a pointed hat on that!

Re: The existence of God
 

He had 12 mates to help him do all that.

Robin Hood :)

The nails can't have been as good as they are today. he could have gone into shock :shocking:
and passed out:sleep:

Re: The existence of God
 

And talking of Easter, which we sort of were, I'm off on holidays in the morning so I'm probably not going to be here to see this thread end the way they always do. So please play nice and remember not to argue with whichever moderator eventually turns up to give you all a good kicking. :p:

Re: The existence of God
 

Easter bunny time of year again.

It's him that causes the trouble :)

Re: The existence of God
 

I only came here because me modem was bust! :(

Re: The existence of God
 

Jesus doesn't do electricals mate.

Re: The existence of God
 

[quote=Chris;34769584]Well, originally I was going to post that a dead man coming back to life after spending a couple of nights in a tomb is a more obvious target than a talking snake. Especially as only one of them is the keystone of the entire religion (clue - it's not the snake ................... WELL it wasn't originally some scholars believe ,early christians did not believe christ was resurrected but in order to give the faith a good boost this tale was invented and the catholic church didn't stop there and continue to invent unscriptural nonsense to this day , confession , mary worship , papal infallibilty the mass oh the list is endless .:monkey:

Re: The existence of God
 

You won't find Chris or myself disagreeing with you about Catholicism - neither of us are its biggest fans :D

But where you got the idea from that early Christians did not believe the story of the resurrection I have no idea.

---------- Post added at 10:27 ---------- Previous post was at 10:23 ----------

11 ;)

So they all had the idea of rolling the stone away just in case he might be alive? After watching him die? And by an amazing coincidence he was alive at that very moment?

Re: The existence of God
 

I think from a channel 4 documentary if I remember right, we only believe what we are taught I suppose and I trust channel 4 more than the bible , resurrection ? indeed !!!!

Re: The existence of God
 

Ahem......

Jesus

---------- Post added at 12:18 ---------- Previous post was at 12:17 ----------

Big Brother? Indeed? ;)

Re: The existence of God
 

Well it depends on whether the Channel 4 documentary was impartial. I'm sure you're going to say you felt it was, however it could have been biased towards atheism. As you don't have any links we have no idea if the producer/writer has a particular view they wanted to promote.

You don't seen to go along with the idea of a resurrection. So how would you describe a miracle? Something that can be explained by science?

Re: The existence of God
 

the samosatene doctrine www.earlychristianhistory.info/arius.html

Re: The existence of God
 

Ok what you've done is link to a particular movement that raised the notion of there being no resurrection. It does not suggest that early Christianity itself had doubts.

Re: The existence of God
 

Beg to differ!

I googled Big Bang v God, Lots of stuff came up, including a sex sites forum post on the topic, and another site from America for pot users, I presume there were others, but those two caught my eye!

Re: The existence of God
 

some of the most enlightened people in history have been stoned lol (ive done ok on this forum over the last few years ;) jk)

Re: The existence of God
 

Pleased you are, my kids are too, and they(2 out of 3) are non believers too.
Its good to have the morals and values that are in the bible, can often be hard to keep to them, but one can try!

---------- Post added at 12:59 ---------- Previous post was at 12:58 ----------


Stoned as in with pebbles and rock.......or the other kind!!;)

---------- Post added at 13:05 ---------- Previous post was at 12:59 ----------



Most kids do what their parents tell them to do, until about this age.
Teenagers at the hall I go to, if they stop coming to the meetings it is at about this age too.
Some seem to stay away for a couple of years or even more, then start coming back.
You can only go to Congregation meetings of any kind if you want to, not because your parents want you to.

Its called free will.

Re: The existence of God
 

the top 50 reasons not to believe

http://godisimaginary.com/i3.htm

enjoy :)

Re: The existence of God
 

That site is almost accurate! The closest yet...

Re: The existence of God
 

you read 50 pages in 4 mins :eeek:

Re: The existence of God
 

The page you linked to.

Why would I want to read the rest of it when I know God exists? It's just the same worn-out arguments, the same lines taken out of context, it's nothing new.

Incidentally why are you so eager to try and get people to think God doesn't exist?

Re: The existence of God
 

in my heart i know GOD is a myth and i feel its my duty to spread the word,and release people from the chains of religion .

Re: The existence of God
 

So don't you think it's hyporitical to complain about door-knockers and people who try to impose their faith on you when nobody here has done that to you?

Re: The existence of God
 

its only a link quoting Bible passages with a differing point of view , you quote bible passages all the time ..
so no i don't think I'm hypocritical I'm following the trend .

Re: The existence of God
 

A militant atheist - woo hoo!

How can you make someone not believe something? :D

Re: The existence of God
 

No, it's taking one or two lines and using them out of context, usual tactics from a militant atheist site. For example, if you wanted to try and prove I'm a dangerous driver, and I mentioned something like "someone cut me up the other day on the motorway, he almost ran me off the road. I felt like cutting him up too but then I calmed down and went on my way" but you only read where I said I wanted to cut him up and made the decision I'm dangerous driver because apparently I cut people up all the time.

It's called only seeing what you want to see.

Firstly no I don't. I've done it once in the last 9 months. See what I mean? Only seeing what you want to see, even if it's not actually there.

In any case what I quoted was from a book. It's a matter of literary record. What you just posted was your opinion.

You're not following any trend. None of us have tried to change anyone's views and impose our beliefs on anyone.

---------- Post added at 18:03 ---------- Previous post was at 18:03 ----------

I knew it would only be a matter of time before they showed their faces ;)

Re: The existence of God
 

Why not just mind your own business?:rolleyes:

Re: The existence of God
 

out of interest, what do you see God as? you say you know 'he' exists, but what exactly is 'he', without covering all bases and saying something getout-clausey and non-descript like "he's everything".... and how do you know? is it a gut feeling or have you had first hand experiences?

This is open to all those who believe in God or Gods by the way.

As I've already said, I believe there is something far greater than us out there somewhere, but what, where, how, who and why, I really don't know. Maybe I'm just hoping that there is more to existance than meets the eye, because it would be pretty pants if this was it. us on a rock spinning in nothingness....

Re: The existence of God
 

[QUOTE=Russ B;34769945]No, it's taking one or two lines and using them out of context, usual tactics from a militant atheist site. For example, if you wanted to try and prove I'm a dangerous driver, and I mentioned something like "someone cut me up the other day on the motorway, he almost ran me off the road. I felt like cutting him up too but then I calmed down and went on my way" but you only read where I said I wanted to cut him up and made the decision I'm dangerous driver because apparently I cut people up all the time.

It's called only seeing what you want to see.


gosh you right i'm turning into you .


and i hope your driving improves

Re: The existence of God
 

What I see God as could easily differ from what someone else does, so I'm not saying my views are representational of anyone. Our relationship with God is personal and unique.

It's very hard to put in to words but I see God as a presence, albeit a totally good, loving and just presence.

You know when you walk in to a pub and there's a jovial, happy atmosphere? That's a presence.

I don't see God as a man with a long white beard etc, I don't even see him as a physical being. Time is a physical concept and only applies to physical matter, and he transcends time and dimension.

You ask how I 'know' - well, I don't. I just go on what feels right to me. Have I seen God? No, none of us ever would, at least not on this plane of existence. Have I heard him? Audibly - no. But he has communicated with me. I'm not going to tell you how or what it was about as it's always been very personal matters but what I will say is I believe he helped me choose my daughter's middle name.

One day I was wondering what name to go with. I had a few in mind, all biblical names (Rebecca, Sarah, Hannah, Ruth, they're all biblical names although those weren't in the running) so one day I was praying/meditating and then BANG out of the blue, one of the names shone brightly in my mind, brighter than anything I'd ever imagined. Each letter of the word was lit up by loads of bulbs. I took that as a sign of what he wanted me to give my daughter as a middle name.

I don't care if anyone doesn't believe me, I seriously could not care less. The above is just about the only communication I've had that I'm willing to talk about. The others, with all due respect, are my concern only.

Re: The existence of God
 

I would not expect to ever get 2 descriptions the same from different people.

Do you not feel that it is entirely possible that 'God' is within you, rather than some external force? could it not be true that God is a way for people to put a name on their own confidence and strength that they call on when they feel low or find themselves in turmoil or distress? A psychological aid, if you will. like in times of danger and the body produces increased amounts of adrenaline giving the father who is rescuing his child what seem to be super-human strengths? perhaps when those who believe in God call upon him, they are finding a way to jump start their bodies into releasing endorphins to calm and relax the mind and body. much like the meditation / prayer practices you mentioned when your daughter middle name came to you...

please don't think I am trying to 'convert' you to a scientific way of thinking. you believe in God, and I think that is good. I'm just asking if you would personally put things down to God, rather than physical happenings that we don't have full control over - subconscious things to an extent in the above example...

Re: The existence of God
 

"Would" I put things down to God?

I already do - and have done for about 7 years.

The leap of faith I took was that no it's not all just "within me", but in the hands of God. That's what the basis of our faith is. I don't put each and every decision I make down to God - I'm sure he's not too bothered about what I have for dinner tonight. But he's there should I need to have something answered. And it's not simply a case of yes or no. "Not yet" is an answer, as is "you are currently where you need to be". Yes there are physical things we have no control over, but he does. We aren't to be reckless, for example no wearing a seatbelt because God will look after us. We are not to test him, that's a sign of weakened faith.

Re: The existence of God
 

Russ.................sorry to be so personal here.
You have spent a lot of time on this thread, even Sunday morning, when most of us believers were at our varoius congregational meetings, unless you have a meeting at another time of course!

Do you not feel it may be best to spend time in a more constuctive way, then continuing to post on a thread that you earlier said you had unsubsribed to.

You are rising to every bait that is been cast your way, and even reading stuff in to stuff that has not been intended.

I realise you have come under personal attack about your beliefs on previous occassions, but are you really happy to continue to keep typing on this thread and keep playing to the audience??

This is not a personal attack by the way, but an observation which I do know others are thinking too.

Peace be with you!

Re: The existence of God
 

Problem with being an admin, you can't simply 'ignore' threads ;)

I'm not really rising to anything - through various channels I've had positive feedback and comments even from other atheists who although their stance hasn't changed, are happy to be enlightened on certain matters.

As for the personal attacks, like I mentioned in the other thread they stopped a long time ago now. What I'm finding these days is the ones who want to be cynical and mischievous are only showing themselves in a bad light. If that's what they want to do then who am I to stop them....

Re: The existence of God
 

Good reply!:)
I would of stepped away long ago......................

Re: The existence of God
 

I think at first, when the thread started, Russ did think this was going to be a bible bashing type of scenario. I'm hoping now that he can see I wasn't trying to start a war here. I'm actually interested in what people have to say, what drives tham and how they interpret things.

The last few answers Russ has given me have been a great example of that, as with Chris's responses early on in this one and I thank them both for that.

Us non-believers are not all out to get you Russ, nor to make you look silly or flawed. as has been established, it's about faith. I'm just interested in the forces behind that faith and why people think the way they do.

Re: The existence of God
 

It would also be nice if the usual suspects would just stop worrying about what theists think/feel and go with what works for them..:shrug:

Re: The existence of God
 

What a lovely response Bender!

Chris has typed a lot of sense (not all I agreed with though!)

His beliefs are a tad different to mine, even though we have the common belief in creation and a firm belief in God, but I do agree that he has typed some things that have possibly made some think!

Hope he is enjoying his holiday and seeing all the good things that this earth has to offer! ;):)

Re: The existence of God
 

being worried and being interested are different things.

as Carl Gustav Jung said, “If one does not understand a person, one tends to regard him as a fool.”. I don't want to see people as fools, so asking is my way of understanding. I don't see any harm in that.

---------- Post added at 20:58 ---------- Previous post was at 20:56 ----------

thank you. :)

Re: The existence of God
 

What happened to the irish man then? :)

Remember Jesus was magic. he didn't die. he slowed down his heartbeat and put himsel into a deep trance.
until his watch alarm went off to wake him up at the opening of the door time :)

---------- Post added at 21:14 ---------- Previous post was at 21:11 ----------

What did you put in Google? Jesus and electric? you wouldn't admit to doing that if you never got a result would you :)

---------- Post added at 21:19 ---------- Previous post was at 21:14 ----------

You don't love your boyfriend. it's me you want.

It's that easy. ;)

---------- Post added at 21:26 ---------- Previous post was at 21:19 ----------

Look into my eyes Russ. :grind: tell us how he communicated with you! :)

That didn't hurt did it? :devsmoke: :D

Re: The existence of God
 

Good to see the only surviving brain transplant donor back. ;)

The thread had been relatively sensible in your absence.

Re: The existence of God
 

The day it becomes any of your concern, you'll be the first to know.

Re: The existence of God
 

:confused:
Haven't you just told us?

Re: The existence of God
 

No - but then again I suppose expecting you to actually pay attention to anything I say in this thread might be a supreme example of "punching above your weight".

Re: The existence of God
 

You're saying that God communiacted with you, but that's not the one? :(
Put aside what this thread is about. you can see how confusing it is where it looks like you're saying he did and explain how he did, and then you say that he did communicate with you but that isn't how, even after you say that it was?

Re: The existence of God
 

Quote:
One day I was wondering what name to go with. I had a few in mind, all biblical names (Rebecca, Sarah, Hannah, Ruth, they're all biblical names although those weren't in the running) so one day I was praying/meditating and then BANG out of the blue, one of the names shone brightly in my mind, brighter than anything I'd ever imagined. Each letter of the word was lit up by loads of bulbs. I took that as a sign of what he wanted me to give my daughter as a middle name.


so you claim in all seriousness that God communicated to you .with bulbs in your mind ,i'm starting to see where the Bible gets its fantastic stories from .

Re: The existence of God
 

I told you ONE of the ways it's happened, just like I've answered every one of your pointless questions yet you still come back with faux 'interest'.

Well it stops here. I've told you everything you need to know, it's pretty plain to me (and others) you have no real interest on this subject other than to find more ammunition to mock and criticise.

Go and waste someone else's time.

---------- Post added at 21:51 ---------- Previous post was at 21:50 ----------

Yes, I am claiming in all seriousness. If you don't like it you know where you can stick it.

Re: The existence of God
 

Grow up Russ :) you are making this out to be personal when it's not.
I am genuinely confused about the statement. the statement could have been about buying petrol but you didn't buy petrol confusing.

all you had to do was explain that that wasn't the one, and even admit if you wanted to that it does look confusing to read.

Re: The existence of God
 

You can claim your intentions are innocent, others know better.

Re: The existence of God
 

I have no intentions. that is just you making an accusation.
Why don't you lie down and scream too Russ? you'll get me put straight to jail without a jury having to convict me :)

If you still won't admit that the statement does look confusing, then that says a lot.

Re: The existence of God
 

Or perhaps if you found it confusing, that says a lot? At the end of the day, I've answered all your questions.

Re: The existence of God
 

GaryL I find nothing confusing about anything Russ has said..However I've found about 50% of what you've said confusing and even contradictory.

I came to the conclusion early in this thread that you are not interested in a debate but would rather try and 'score points' rather than seek or promote any understanding.

Re: The existence of God
 

Maybe you made it confusing to get the reaction you wanted?

---------- Post added at 22:51 ---------- Previous post was at 22:50 ----------

Thank you Maggy. and you being a school teacher too.

Re: The existence of God
 

See no substance what so ever.What does my being a school teacher have to do with my thinking you don't really care to debate anything and that you make no sense what ever.

Re: The existence of God
 

Because being a school teacher you should have a good grasp of the English language, and the understanding of it. if you read Russ's statement and my question asked of it, and you can't see the confusion, instead of seeing it as distruption and not wanting to debate.

Debate in itself is just that anyway. questioning facts/fiction and statements.

Re: The existence of God
 

So your lack of understanding and contradiction is due to a poor education?

Re: The existence of God
 

What we're trying to understand is, 'how' can someone 'believe' in something that there is no proof exists, but a probability of 100%, doesn't exist.

We just don't understand how people in this day and age can believe in medieval logic.

Re: The existence of God
 

Yes. I'm handicapped too. do you want to laugh at me about that too? :D

Re: The existence of God
 

Belief doesn't rely on proof or logic - that is why it is called belief :erm:

- arguably there is also no such thing as a probability of 100% - the uncertainty principle could apply, for example ...

Re: The existence of God
 

I'm assuming that by 'we' you're actually referring to yourself. By the way there's a link here that says scientists claim there's a 67% chance of God being real.

Would I be naive in thinking that because it's clear you don't understand why we believe in what we do, you'll stop asking the same types of questions over and over again?

Re: The existence of God
 

Allow me:

A little thing called Faith

Re: The existence of God
 

But with no evidence, the possibility is zero times 2.8 billion believers = 0.

To believe in something doesn't make it a fact.

Re: The existence of God
 

As I said yesterday, and completely foxed Gary L, no-one is saying God existing is a fact.

Re: The existence of God
 

I think they could be related ;) :p:

Re: The existence of God
 

Isn't the above the exact reason that mankind found the need for religion?

Re: The existence of God
 

You're saying you believe over and over again, but not saying WHY, 'faith' or 'because we do' is a tad lame.

Re: The existence of God
 

It's becoming more and more evident that you're either simply not reading my posts or only looking for the bits you want to see.

I've already said why I believe.

Re: The existence of God
 

Would you like to try again? :)

Re: The existence of God
 

Why argue passionately for Gods existence then. THIS is what I don't understand.

There obviously is some doubt.

Re: The existence of God
 

Why would your doubt change any else's belief ??

The theory of entanglement suggests that without man there would be no God - the converse may also be true ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement

Re: The existence of God
 

Gary, DRZ, all the cleaver & cool kids are posting on 4chan/b/ quick hurry :rolleyes:

Re: The existence of God
 

No, there's obviously some parallel universe with a Cable Forum where someone called Russ B is arguing for his existence, because it certainly isn't this one.

You've been doing the arguing, I've been telling you why I believe he exists. I have never said God is fact. You've wanted me to say it, so you can come back with "so where's the proof" etc.

What I've done is explain (several times) that I believe he is real. I've briefly explained how he works in my life. I have no doubt God is real in my world so I don't need to prove anything to anyone. If you want God in your life then that's between you and him. Go speak to one of those door-knockers that annoy you so much. No-one will ever tell you God is 100% fact.

Re: The existence of God
 

Russ .. I'm wondering what your views are on Scientology.

http://www.scientology.org/

Re: The existence of God
 

Come on folks I think Russ has been more than fair in his responses, especially when some of the comments he's received has been pretty near the mark.

Re: The existence of God
 

A dangerous cult but if that's what they believe then good on them.

Re: The existence of God
 

Are you picking on people again? :rolleyes:
what is 4chan/b/ ?

Re: The existence of God
 

maybe so, maybe so...

but when did the want to believe in something need a set of rules to live ones life by in order to follow it? could it not be true that religion originally came about as a way to control the masses? A way of keeping order through fear of something that could not be proven, and therefore people would rather not chance going against it, just in case?

I believe there is something out there that we simply do not have the capacity to comprehend, but I'm not going to live my life by a set of rules and regulations just to exercise that right. but that is my choice. and those who follow a religion usually make that choice for themselves to. so whatever works really. one mans meat and all that...

Re: The existence of God
 

And the difference being?

In a thousand years, maybe Scientology will be the dominant religion.

Re: The existence of God
 

I'm not too sure I believe in God.
I only go to church or chapel for weddings or funerals being conducted there.
I've never made religion an issue for my children, I'll let them make up their own minds and follow whichever one they choose or none at all.

Having said that, when something goes wrong in my life, I look to the sky and ask for help from this being I'm not too sure I believe in.
Does this make me confused, sceptical believer or just desperate?

I've heard opinions from Catholics, Protestants, Christians, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons etc on their faith and applaud their total belief in something that has never been proved to have existed or exist now.

What I despise is the believers who try to force their beliefs onto others and tell people who aren't religious that they're going to hell because they don't believe or that their marriage doesn't count because it didn't take place in a religious temple.
If this God is so great, he sees it all, and as we're all his children, surely he loves us all?
And if he doesn't see all of us as his children and love us all then he's not very great after all.

Re: The existence of God
 

You can be nasty to us without fear of recriminations.

Scientology isn't a religion by the way.

---------- Post added at 23:56 ---------- Previous post was at 23:55 ----------

And I get quite annoyed with atheists to are on a mission to change people's minds about their religion and rubbish what we believe. There's been plenty of them in this thread.

Re: The existence of God
 

I agree totally with that.
We/us/you are being blamed for being against "them" but the reverse is actually intrusive. especially about the marriage and it not counting.

Why does marriage even have to be a religious thing?

Re: The existence of God
 

I certainly don't see myself as an atheist, I believe in something, I'm just not sure what.

Re: The existence of God
 

Russ, read moaningmags post. you seem to think that it's all about you personally but it's not. you even speak as if you are speaking on everyones behalf.

Re: The existence of God
 

I'm gutted that you agree with me :p:

Re: The existence of God
 

I'm just pretending for their sake ;)

Re: The existence of God
 

I wasn't aiming it at moaningmags. It was aimed at those who've posted in this thread declaring there's "no God" and are on a mission to change the minds of believers, and that we're all wrong about it.

Re: The existence of God
 

Quote of the CENTURY.

I think you'll find throughout history Christianity has caused the barbaric deaths of millions of people in the most horrific circumstances possible.

Re: The existence of God
 

I think you'll find it is not written in to the doctrine of Christianity that anyone that disagrees with us is 'fair game' for reprisals. I assure you had you proclaimed your views in front of Scientologists, you'd need to be looking over your shoulder for a very long time.

I'm assuming you didn't read that link and digest it?

You asked what the difference is? That's just one of them.

Re: The existence of God
 

I was not saying that you were aiming it at moaningmags.

Re: The existence of God
 

And neither was I. Just making it clear.

Re: The existence of God
 

I knew you weren't Russ.

The Scientology stories are scary and given I'm Scottish, giving them part of my income to prove my faith is not on.