Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Don't expect Hamas to stop firing rockets till the blockade is lifted.

Hamas are still firing rockets into Gaza so Israel hasn't made much difference except kill and injure 5000+ Palestinians.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

But, after all the Israeli stupidities, screw-ups, collateral damage and political/PR blunders, they have offered a cease-fire - if Hamas don't join in, who is seen as the bad guy then?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

So there damned if they do & damned if they dont eh!

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Some people don't want a equitable solution, just one where one side loses.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Exactly what Israel wants to happen. They are seen as the good guys who have stopped killing Palestinians and Hamas are seen as the bad ones still firing rockets into Israel. This won be over for a while.

Far from coincidence the ceasefire has come just 3 days before Obama becomes president.

The Israelis soldiers will continue their presence in Gaza.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Now is the time for Hamas to show it really wants peace through solely non-violent means, the eyes of the world are on Gaza, a new American president is about to arrive and unlike Bush Obama holds the European view that letting the Palestinian conflict just fester without resolution is a large contributing factor to extremism among Muslim youth.
The same goes for Israel in that they don't want to get off to poor start with a new president, especially with the Iranian question upcoming in Obama's program.
Lets hope both sides leaderships are fed up enough of the status quo and are prepared to compromise, my bet is that the average Israeli and Palestinian have both had an utter gut-full and want change.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I hope you are right and change happens, but with all that is gone on in the past, it doesn't seem likely there will be much change. But hopefully Obama can make a difference. Time will tell.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Obama will only make a difference if he has some magic eraser that can wipe out the past because right now we have way too many people holding onto the past to ever come to an accomadation both sides can live with i have my doubts being honest.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

They said that about Northern Ireland, which had been going on a lot longer. I notice Gordon Brown has signed up to try and stop smuggling of weapons into Gaza. I notice Gordon Brown has not signed up to try and stop export of weapons into Israel.

Hmm.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7836205.stm

Let us hope THIS one holds...:erm:

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Amen to that.:Peaceman:

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Lets hope israel withdraws its troops from gaza. Let's hope that they lift the blockade allowing much needed aid into gaza. Let's hope that they allow independant reporters and inspectors in so the world can see the brutality of its aggression towards the people of gaza. Let's bear in mind that israel caused more carnage and destruction in the first minute of its bombing campaign then hamas caused in its entire history against israel.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Let's walk before we run..getting a ceasefire that holds is as much as I'm hoping for at the moment..and I'm not taking sides in this issue mainly because I'm extremely angry with BOTH sides.:mad:

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Having seen some of the Reuters photos the place does look a bit knackered so it's not just going to be a case of getting aid in, people who once had homes or businesses will need significant assistance in getting rehomed.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

And this is why the ceasefire will fail - instead of looking ahead, emotive negative language will be used by both sides, raising tempers and leading to a breakdown in communications.

S_l_m, I understand you feel strongly about this, but all posts like that do is lead to posters making negative comments about Hamas, which then escalates into a ever-worsening spiral, and once again, everybody loses (imho).

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

This thread in a way has become a metaphor for what is happening out there. It's frightening how quickly a terrible issue like this divides people into opposing camps and how reluctant they are to consider the validity of their stances.

It's been quite an education.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Well said foreverwar, I couldn't have put it better. Its tantamount to a married couple having an argument and one or the other just can't stop themselves from having the last word, continue down that route and once again everybody loses...again.:(

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Very well said indeed. Too much flag waving & not enough talking.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Given the subject matter, I think most contributors to this thread have been remarkably restrained. No warnings, no infractions - if only the world was like this.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Let's not forget that were not going to make much difference discussing peace negotiations. People come to give their opinions and views on matters and tbh they can say whatever they feel, within the rules ofcourse.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Was thinking exaclty the same Foreverwar. Very well put post :)

On The subject at hand I would love to hear of a ceasefire holding or of talks taking place but I cant say I hold out much hope of seeing this actually happen.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Well in that scenario the couple either get a divorce,live with the situation or murder occurs.

I just wish divorce was a possibility here.:erm:

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

When i say words like brutal aggression, destruction and carnage, i'm not making things up or being negative. If the world sees this for its reality then hopefully people will see whats happened and prevent it from happening again.
.yes, there is a ceasefire, and i hope it lasts, but i do not feel that the israelis should be allowed to get away with what they've done by covering it up from the eyes of the world.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Neither should Hamas be let off the hook either.They are not angels and my sympathies do not lie with them.

My sympathies are for the ordinary Palestinians who just want all the fighting to stop...as it is for the ordinary Israelis who also want the fighting to stop.

The bloody fighting hawks on both sides can go to hell for all I care.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Well said Maggy, if only we could get shot of the hotheads on both sides the ordinary Israeli and Palestinian might stand a chance.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Agreed but I think this is a more of a deep rooted problem. Getting rid of the hot heads is one way however there could be many more than we think and normally I would expect that more will just spring up in their place.

I believe that both side's preconceived ideas of each other have to be changed. How this would be done I dont know but until they stop thinking of eachother as the Enemy or pure evil then war's like this will continue until there's no-one left to fight them.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Agree but history has shown that's exactly what'll happen sadly. The fact that Isreal has once again proved she can and will act in this manner irrespective of world opinion (aside from their bankers and buddies in the US of course) doesn't bode well for the Palestinians.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I think it's a case of wait and see and hope for the best.

Every day without fighting is a bonus.

Any plan formulated by the Palestinians and Israel would have to contain safeguards which protect both sides and prevent the situation lapsing back into war.

It's likely that any plan is best implemented gradually by degrees over a period of time using mutually agreed milestones which enable the two sides to build up some trust as the situation demands it.

UN monitors are likely to be present for some time to ensure that both sides are keeping to what they agreed.

Given the amount of ill-feeling between the two groups, the lack of trust and the fact that the issue has been going on since 1947, I would expect such a implementation to take 10 to 20 years as there is no quick fix to this problem.The quality of life would improve by every successfully completed milestone.

Hopefully, any child born at the start of the implementation of the agreed plan will live through many happy years of peace.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

...and lose. Hamas aren't Hezbollah, who are a decent fighting force with some good brains, so it's another blow to the idea that you can and should keep these backward tribes in place with air-power and artillery. Since it's the fourth time that's happened in five years, perhaps the people who think this is a good idea will re-examine it, but I'm not hopeful.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

When you look at the people in the Gaza area, & the homes where they live, they have very little more than any 3rd world country. There is no gain for anyone who wants the place. No industry, fertile land, resources, nothing. It not even strategically important. With the exception of getting hurt from idiots firing rockets, Israel has no real use for the place.

BBKing, There are no winners, or losers. If you imply Hamas, are a decent fighting force, then that beggars belief. What they are, is a group of cowards, who fight behind women & children, who are too frightened to fight other soldiers, in an open conflict.

When this conflict started, Hamas publicly announced that there would be a bloodbath. Just like Saddam & all the other wannabe`s, all gob & no fight.

13 Soldiers, a bloodbath?

They were right about the bloodbath of course, the blood of civilians is on their hands, & for what, a strip of barren land.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

That's not how I read BBKing's posting.He was suggesting Hezbollah were a better fighting force.:confused:

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

This "strip of barren land" is home to 1.5 millions Palestinians. I know some view Israeli lives more precious than Palestinians, but they are just the same species. Gaza is their home, for some they were forced there by Israel taking over Palestinians land.

Israel has killed and injured thousands of innocent women and children. Hamas did not drop bombs on civilians or use phosphorus gas. The government are murderers and the worst part is 90% of Israeli public wanted Israel to go into Hamas.

It is quite clear to see who's pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian here. Some people will always have their opinions, and no matter what is said and done, they will not change.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Right. I must have mis read the post.

se917, I understand this is home to 1.5 million people, but it is a barren strip of land with poor quality homes on it. My point is, its not worth fighting over. There is no advantage in owning it. The only importance it has, is to accommodate 1.5 mill people in poverty. I do not value any life as more important than another's. Unless it is a terrorist. The terrorists life has no value to me, at all.

Hamas did drop bombs on Civillians, unless you do not classify exploding rockets as bombs.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

So true, so true - which is a shame.

It would be nice if everyone was pro-peace, instead of one side or the other.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I'm just peed off at the gung ho's on both sides..May they meet each other in hell...

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

You say Gaza is not worth fighting over. If the Palestinians did not fight for Gaza where would they be. Dead?

This is not just about Gaza. This is about the blockade. I can see you are very pro-Israeli in your views but from my point of view Israel are the aggressors and should be punished. But US are behind Israel so no justice is ever done. This will keep on happening unless there is change and Obama did say there will be change so let's see if it happens.

---------- Post added at 20:49 ---------- Previous post was at 20:46 ----------

I agree, but i can not be like that as one side is and has been the aggressor for a long time now. You know my views so i wont go into them again. Your probably getting bored of the same thing being repeated. But the main reason i came onto here was to see what other peoples views were and how they justified them.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Now this is where I do get confused, Hamas have been blindly firing rockets into Israeli cities purposely targeting civilians.
In this conflict there is plenty of fault on both sides, to put all the blame on just one side is patently misrepresenting the situation.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

This has been taken out of context. I replied with this comment to SMG's comment about Hamas killing Palestinians, Israel are the ones killing in numbers and i am baffled when i see people like Mark Regav saying Hamas have killed and are killing all the Palestinians in Gaza.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Um, no, read what I said:
Lebanese Hezbollah are a decent fighting force, in the sense that they are well-trained, well disciplined, pretty well armed for the doctrines they have developed and thereby saw off the IDF in 2006. Their prize for that was entry into Lebanese politics as the de-facto rulers of the south of the country.

Hamas, on the other hand, are barely beyond the futile 'wave your AK and shout Allah' phase of development, which has never really worked as a tactic. My point was that if Israel can't beat those guys (and the evidence is they can't, as Hamas have pointed out by loosing off some more rockets, bigging themselves up fpr the cameras and generally still being around and in charge), they're in serious trouble and need a plan B beyond just dropping bombs on people they don't like.

Quite. Ever ask yourself who's sitting on the *good* land?

I'm not sure the word I want to use at this point is allowed on this forum. I'll just ask this - in what way does Israel's perpetual tactic of making Hamas stronger make Hamas weaker? In other words, what's the point of all this?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

---------- Post added at 23:06 ---------- Previous post was at 22:52 ----------

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Collecting pieces of my family
In an old pillow case
This one has a skull
But it don't have a face

These look like the arms of father so strong
And the ring on this finger
Means my Grandmother's gone
Here's some legs in a pile
Where my sister once played

Here's some mud made of blood
And these teeth are decayed
The ear of my brother
The hand of a friend
And I just can't
Put them back together again

Pick up the bones
And set them on fire
Follow the smoke going higher and higher
Pick up the bones
And wish them goodnight
Pray them a prayer and turn out the light

There are stains on the floor
Where the kitchen once stood
There are ribs in the fireplace
Mixed with the wood

There are forces in the air
Ghosts in the wind
Some bullets in the back
And some scars on the skin

There were demons with guns
Who marched through this place
Killing everything that breathed
They're an inhuman race

There are holes in the walls
Bloody hair on the bricks
And the smell of this hell
Is making me sick

Pick up the bones
And set them on fire
Follow the smoke going higher and higher
Pick up the bones
And wish them goodnight
Pray them a prayer and turn out the light

Now maybe someday
The suns gonna shine
Flowers will bloom
And all will be fine

But nothing will grow
On this burnt cursed ground
Cuz the breath of the death
Is the only sound

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

This is not going to help matters.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7869704.stm

The UN are getting it in the neck from both sides..What with being targeted by the Israelis during this last conflict.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

All of which goes to prove that there are plenty of innocent people suffering in Gaza through no fault of their own whether it be at the hands of the Israelis or Hamas. If their own 'Govt.' is abusing them they certainly don't need bombing as well.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7871874.stm

Another ship fired on and seized by Israel, stopping vital medical supplies, food and clothing for Gaza. The more this continues the more worse Israel makes it for themselves.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

It's happened again

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7875171.stm

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Hamas aren't helping themselves with this sort of behaviour.

Times "Egyptian police intercepted a senior Hamas official yesterday as he tried to enter the Gaza Strip with nearly £8 million in cash stuffed into his bags."

Wonder where he got it from?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

£8 million, He'd get about 50 euros for that. ;)

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7874020.stm