Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

The point remains, until it can be completely disproved that there is no parentl involvment then it has to remain a possibility

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Actually, it has taken three months for the police to go look for blood.

---------- Post added at 11:46 ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 ----------

Keeping it at the center of attention would appear unwise for the guilty party?

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Granted, but it's so far down the list of possibilities I don't think it warrants continued, detailed discussion - and never forget that in any court of law it would not be for the McCanns to disprove anything, quite the reverse. The Prosecution would have a mountain to climb in order to demonstrate such a wholly improbable scenario as this.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

How long did it take to find the murdered kids killed by Hindley? Arent some of those bodies still missing?

What makes a professional killer, doing it more than once or doing it once and getting away with it?

Most killers/murderors/cover uppers have a lot to lose anyway (but they go ahead and do it anyway), that would not be just unique to Maddie's parents.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Until it is proven that the parents have no responsibility in the incident then however improbable it may seem It is met with the same level of investigation as any other line of enquiry the way however it is handled is of a compeltely different nature.

---------- Post added at 11:56 ---------- Previous post was at 11:55 ----------

No, because it would show them acting as distraught, concerned parents and attempt to draw suspicion away from them.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I don't think that's a reasonable comparison - policing was a very different thing back then and forensics was practically non-existent.

Much more appropriate to consider how quickly Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman were discovered.

Answer me these:
What did the McCanns have to lose by coming clean and reporting an accidental death?
What did the McCanns have to gain by murdering their daughter and disposing of her body?

---------- Post added at 12:00 ---------- Previous post was at 11:57 ----------

That's not true. No police enquiry has limitless resources. As an investigation proceeds, it focuses more effort on the more likely lines of enquiry. Not discounting and actively pursuing are not the same thing.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

1) Somone has already said, The could face potential child neglect charges which if found guilty could resort to them serviing a custodial sentence in a Portugese prison and losing the rest of their children

2) Who truly knows how the mind of a murderer works ?

---------- Post added at 12:01 ---------- Previous post was at 12:00 ----------

Wrong, wrong and wrong, If the need is seen fit then resources are made from across multiple forces until every line can be followed.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

And on balancing that against the chances of successfully hiding the body so as to avoid the inevitable charge of murder that would follow ... does it really stack up?

Sorry counsel, but that's not admissable. Very, very few murders have no motive at all. The jury has a right to expect you to offer a reason *why*.

Further to both (1) and (2) - where is the evidence? Suspicion and speculation is not evidence, neither will it become evidence merely by constant repetition.

---------- Post added at 12:05 ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 ----------

In which case, are the family actively being investigated, and what can that tell us about what the police belive is likely or unlikely to have happened here?

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Chris your are right that in law you need evidence to convict someone. That does not been that all guilty people are convicted though does it. Some perpertrators have got away with things due to a lack of evidence, leaving the courtroom smirking. I'm sure we could dig up some examples of where evidence has pointed to the guilty party doing it but they have got away with it.

I've reversed into a car damaged it, got away with it because there's no evidence or witnesses. Not exactly murder but it hilights the point Im making.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

In which case, I'm not sure what point you're making. The fact that parents murder their children does not mean that Madeline's parents murdered her. The fact that other people get away with crimes does not mean that the McCanns are getting away with a crime.

'It is possible that the McCanns were responsible for the disappearance of their daughter' is a factual statement. It is possible. But that statement by itself doesn't get us anywhere. Where is the probable cause? Where is the evidence? Without any of this, there seems little point in constant repetition of what can only be baseless speculation.

There is also the very handy point of Portuguese law that states the police must name the McCanns as suspects if they are actively investigating them. That they have not done this should not be overlooked.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

£946,843.92 ?

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I don't think that's true - as I understand it, the police cannot arrest someone until they make them an 'official suspect' (arguido) but they don't have to give someone that they are investigating that status unless the person actually requests it.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

The point I am making is it is feasible that they could have murdered her, or been involved in covering up a death or the abduction. Something can be feasible and likely to happen even if its not happened. That's the point I'm making.

I have not said they've done it.

I have previously said, and I stand by it, that they have acted totally irresponsible in leaving her and the other 2 kids alone.

You seem to dismiss the feasibility of the fact that they could have done it by arguing that they have more to lose by covering it up, by the fact that they are intelligent enough to realise the difficulty of getting away with it and the risk of getting caught, and the fact that they have not been named in the investigation.

I'm of the opinion that whilst they might not have done it, its feasible they could have.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I'm not sure what to make of it all either, but i think that Mail article is highly irresponsible for insinuating the 'accident' cover up, if the parents didn't then imagine how much it's killing them people saying it?!

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

The whole point of performing an investigation is to collect evidence to lead towards a conviction. So until there is no evidence pertaining to a paticular thread of enquiry it remains an active lead.

Motive remans to be discovered, it;s the evidence that leads to motive in most cases.

The family have been investigated to a degree already, one of the press conferences was used to forensically psyschoanalyse the behavior of the parents. Actively advertising the fact that you know who your suspect is not the best route of action to take.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Some people also revel in media attention, I'm sure there's a term for that.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I'm assuming you mean 'until the police are satisfied there is no evidence', because there is, by definition, no evidence unless any evidence has actually been found. :spin: ;)

I'm not saying the family are above suspicion. People murder their children, that's a fact and its sufficient grounds to ask whether that happened here. It's not sufficient grounds for endless speculation however and it isn't sufficient grounds for the police to throw hour after hour of intense investigation at it in the hope that sooner or later, something will turn up.

I don't doubt for a second that they will have looked at how the parents behaved during a press conference but once again, it is a fallacy to make more of this than is actually the case. Asking questions and making enquiries does not infer that the police believe someone is guilty.

And we return again to the issue of Portuguese law - if the police had been pursuing the McCanns with the same intensity as they have Robert Murat, whay have the McCanns not yet been declared official suspects?

---------- Post added at 12:48 ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 ----------

In which case we are at linguistic cross-purposes. Feasible can mean either possible or likely and I have been understanding you to be suggesting the latter.

The fact that parents kill their children does indeed mean it is technically possible that the McCanns may have murdered their daughter. I do not however believe it is likely.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Whose making more of it than it is ? I back up another post that says it should not be completely ignored. And the people who I work with and for, are of the opinion that in someway the parents are linked to this. It's a course of topic that cant be gotten away from.

Whose to say the Portugese have not cocked up ? It would not be the first time in this investigation that they had now. Would it ?


What really really hacks me off in all of this is the media circus that it has become. How many children have gone missing since the disappearance of Maddy ? and have they collectively received one tenth of the column inches that she has ? That is a the real disgrace (albeit for a completely different thread)

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

As I said above, why would they do that when they don't have to? See here for some comments from a Portuguese lawyer on the subject:

The police don't have to name anyone as arguido unless they want to arrest them or the individual requests it.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

And on what basis do you form your opinion that is unlikely that they murdered or were somehow involved in the dissapearance of their own child ?

Do you know the parents ?

Have you had any part in the investigation ?

Or is it a case of watching the same old media circus rubbish as 99.9% of people ? And you came to the opinion that was 'No, they couldn't possibly do such a thing'

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Take a chill pill my friend. I'm guessing that my knowledge of the parents and firsthand involvement in the case is just about the same as yours. Don't throw stones in a greenhouse. ;)

And it's a bit rich for you to rail against the media circus whilst happily regurgitating the aimless, watercooler speculation of the people you work with.

As for my reasons for believing what I do, I have set them out, more than once, above. All that stuff about what they stood to gain, what they stood to lose, their likely ability to conceal a body in a foreign country ... you even replied to some of it.

And I never said I thought the family couldn't possibly do such a thing. In my reply to South London Mo (post 617, which you have in fact just quoted in reply to me) I said:

"The fact that parents kill their children does indeed mean it is technically possible that the McCanns may have murdered their daughter. I do not however believe it is likely."

Now, if you'd like to continue the discussion calmly, and on the basis of what I've actually said rather than on a distorted parody of it, by all means, let's continue.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Im very calm about the entire thing, you said something along the lines of that you dont think they are capable of commiting such an act. Im asking on what basis do you form that opinion.

With regards to the individual case then we probably have the same amount of knowledge. However with regards to the conduct of a forensic investigation and what lines are/should be taken by a SIO and also CSC/CSM in handling an enquiry then I suspect we differ a bit.

And where just out of interest I have made a parody of what you have said ?

That would be the watercooler speculation of trained SOCO's who now train all english/welsh PSNI CSI/Crime scene managers and co ordinators is it ?

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I said no such thing, and nothing I've said was intended to imply such a thing. I happen to believe that all human beings are entirely capable of pretty awful things, given the right circumstances.

We may, but at the moment we're not talking about the conduct of the investigation. We're talking about the likelihood that the parents had something to do with the disappearance of the child.

When you said:

"And you came to the opinion that was 'No, they couldn't possibly do such a thing' "

Seeing as I never expressed any such opinion, I'm at a loss to understand what I said that drew you to that conclusion - unless it is (at best) a gross misunderstanding of this:

"The fact that parents kill their children does indeed mean it is technically possible that the McCanns may have murdered their daughter. I do not however believe it is likely."

Which is, as far as I remember, the clearest statement I've made on my beliefs about what is possible or likely in this case.

Yes, unless they have access to the specifics of this case. Dress it up however you like, all any of us have got to go on, in the absence of hard facts, is probabilities, likelihoods and possibilities. On the other hand, if you do know someone who knows someone who has first-hand information that would enlighten this discussion, by all means post away.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but scene-of-crime specialists such as the ones you are acquainted with are not full police detectives with the breadth of experience to make authoritative speculation about the motives of people involved in criminal cases are they? Or am I taking an unduly narrow view of the work of SOCOs and the like?

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I think we're getting into semantics here.

Your post was along the lines of 'I think it's very improbable/highly unlikely that they would of been involved' Which is why I questioned on what basis you formed that.

fair comment on the dressing up of the 'Oh, they couldn't have possibly done it' comment whilst not directly attributed to you it was meant to display that the mentality of people who have watched things such as press conferences and believe what they see rather than question it, for that comment I apologise.

The work both myself and my colleagues do here relates to all forces across the UK and NI (excluding Scotland) and on occasion europe and yes there are individuals who have had first hand contact with the investigation. and at that point Im going to not go into this area anymore for obvious reasons.


SOCO/CSI is a changing roll with more and more convictions dependent on forensics. the part they/we play in gaining a conviction is increasing evermore. Senior Investigating officers now listen more and more as we are either corroberate or disprove a potential supsects claims. Again I'm not going to go into to much detail on here but if you would like to know more (Within reason of course) Id be more than happy to drop you an email or a pm

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I'm trying to avoid semantics, honestly.

I appreciate you can't post any specifics you may be privy to, but it was worth a try wasn't it? ;)

Please understand, I am not simply regurgitating what I've seen on the TV. I am trying to think through the various possibilities and weigh up the likelihood of each based on the information available to me, from reports of this case and as a student of human nature in general. All I can do is make the best of what I've got to go on.

Based on what I have to go on, I don't think it's likely that they did it - the biggest objection I have, as I said earlier, is I just can't see how they could have devised a plan for disposing of a body whilst in a foreign country - unfamiliar territory, lack of access to the usual resources (without wishing to be unduly morbid, I'm thinking of spades and bin bags), etc.

I don't buy the theory that they are covering up an accident in order to avoid child neglect charges because it doesn't add up. Even if they did hide a body, in the course of the inquiry they have still had to account for their whereabouts, so it was very quickly established that they had left their children unattended in any case. Net gain to the McCanns - nothing. I can't believe they are not intelligent enough to have realised that hiding a tragic fatal accident would get them nowhere fast.

Add to all this, it would be extremely unlikely for parents to behave in such a way towards their children suddenly, out of the blue, without any prior attention being drawn towards them or interest from their local social services. And if there had been any such interest, you can bet it would have been reported by now. Remember no criminal procedings are active in the UK so there are no restrictions on what can be reported in the absence of an injunction (whose granting would itself have been reported).

Without any offence intended to the area of expertise of those you discuss this with at work, I still think the fact that they are in a discipline associated with police detective work means that they are affording their own theories a little more credence and authority than they are perhaps entitled to. Commenting beyond your expertise is a trap defence counsel will frequently try to draw you into and one I hope you warn your trainees against!

Incidentally, a feature on a short course in forensic techniques being offered at a local college was one of my first stories as a trainee reporter (many years ago now, and I don't even work in the Media any more, before you think I'm angling for a story) ... it is a subject I find endlessly fascinating, I may take you up on your kind offer of a chat by PM some time. For now though I am spending far too much of my working day posting on here and I reeeally need to stop ... :disturbd:

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

What about gossip and innuendo? :(

Seems strange to me that people think they could kill her and dispose of the body without the other children knowing, I know she was taken while they slept but her parents were in full public view for all but a few minutes of the evening, seems like a pretty good alibi to me

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

If you want a chat by PM then by all means please do. If you are really interested then I could probably get you some of our non restricted stuff.

Failing that if you are ever in the area drop me a PM and you could have a site visit :D

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I cannot believe that forum members are discussing the fact that they assume that the McCanns, are behind this terrible crime, of Madeline and are trying to figure out, how they have disposed the child, l strongly feel that these ' assumptions' are totally wrong, if you remember the press have stated that a witness, SAW the person kidnap the girl, well it could not have been the McCanns, as they were in the restuarant, as l have said, parents make mistakes and the child was within several feet of the restuarant, the biggest culprits, who should hold the head in shame, are the Portugese Police for failing to alert the public of this problem, also if she was seen at the garage, with TWO people, ARE these TWO people the same as, when the girl was spotted in Belgium, last week, the press make a lot of worrying information released, like today paper claim she was killed in a flat, this is even before, DNA tests have been carried out on the bottle, l believe she is still alive, but sadly l feel that she is in the hands of the 'sick ' people of this world, we have heard that a p### has been shot in the head, as he knew, someone who kidnapped the girl, as he had kidnapped another girl similar to Madeline, but there again, this has come from the press, who prey on these terrible crimes, and exaggerate them, let us wait for test on the DNA, on the blood samples and the bottle samples, and the witnesses who SAW the the girl (if it is Madeline), with the couple. it only makes the McCann more stressful, l hope and pray she is safe.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Hang on a moment, who has assumed that ? All anyone has ever said is that until it can be completely ruled out it should remain an active focus of investigation

Sounds reasonable to me really..................

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I don't think anyone is assuming the McCanns butchered their daughter and buried her body Arthur. We've just been spending some time considering how likely an explanation it is. Some of us think it more or less likely than others.

None of us want that to be the case and I don't think anyone's assuming it is. We all want to see Madeleine home safely.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I stand corrected, forum members, on this matter, l was looking at the fact of how the press has ' stretched ' the matter of what they believe is happening, and what they think, l buy in the region of SIX PAPERS per day on this matter and try and read between the lines, and then watch Sky News, to try and get a picture of what is happening, we have heard so much about this case, you can visualise you actually being there and trying to look for her yourself.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I have previously said that I think the McGann's know more than they are letting on, but I think the most important think is that we all want to see Madeline returned home. However it is looking less and less likely that this will be the case, so now I just hope whoever has done it, whether they are some paedo, friends of the family, family members or even the parents themselves, get's exactly what they deserve for a truly horrendous crime. These people deserve to be put down in my opinion.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

If i remember correctly from the point of four hours of going missing is when the chances of someone being found alive rapidly decrease :(

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Unfortunately I believe the chances of seeing that little girl alive again are nil.

Her parents can't, and will, never give up hope but the rest of us know it wont happen.

There is too much media attention, not saying that's a bad thing or blaming them. But it's too dangerous for whoever abducted her to keep her alive.

The McCanns heartache is a terrible thing, but when I see them visiting the Pope and other VIPs and the countless press conferences/column inches/TV spots.

But when I see them my heart really goes out to the parent of the all the other children that have gone missing:

In the UK alone That's a 100,000 a year, which put's it in perspective a bit.

Source http://www.publications.parliament.u...70117-0006.htm

These parents are not getting the support or attention the McCanns are getting.

I agree that it is a good thing to keep the pressure up to find out what has happened to Medaline but I also think that it may be best to let the investigation to continue without the media frenzy.

I mean the current issue, blood spots found in the room. They could be from anyone, anyone who may have stayed in the room prior to the McCanns, it hasn't even been confirmed that it is blood. But the media kicks off, and right on cue the McCanns are wheeled out - press interview " we still thinks she's alive" etc etc.

Is this going to happen every time there is an unconfirmed lead???

Can't we just leave them alone until there is a concrete piece of evidence?

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Interestingly enough I note seeing this morning that the father has 'suddenly' remembered playing hide and seek with her apparently moments before she dissapeared

Ill find the source shortly

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

What, He got her to count to a 100,000 while he and the missus dissapeared to eat with their friends.????

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I thought it odd too, just remember either reading it or seeing it, still trying to find where :erm:

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

The Scotsman (article) has a piece saying that the focus of the investigation has shifted from the child being kidnapped to her being accidentally killed in the apartment.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Yeah... sure it wasn't someones idea of a (sick) joke, about hide and seek?

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Agree 100%

Heard Mrs McCann in a lengthy BBC radio interview earlier. I do feel very sorry about what's happened yet her comment that they felt it was safe to leave their young children in those circumstances still astonish me. They are obviously fixated on the abduction but what about the other risks of leaving such young children alone in a hotel room? She repeated that they'd checked the children regularly but wasn't pressed and didn't clarify exactly how often or how far away they were. I may have missed these details somewhere along the way but this still all seems rather too vague.

My heart goes out to those other parents who've lost children and whose plight is being largely ignored.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

...and that witness just happened to be one of the McCann's friends. Coincidence?

I wouldn't say that 233 feet was "several", even further in actual walking distance. Let's not forget that despite initial reports, the apartment was outside the holiday complex, in a public road, hidden by a 6-7 ft concrete wall, with the doors left unlocked.

---------- Post added at 13:09 ---------- Previous post was at 13:02 ----------

That's something I picked up on as well. In all the interviews I have seen, neither of them specified how often they checked up on the children. They have been very vague.

---------- Post added at 13:15 ---------- Previous post was at 13:09 ----------

Just watching the BBC news. The DNA taken from the drinks bottle in Belgium turns out to be that of a male. Also UK forensic scientists in Birmingham will be carrying out tests on the substance found in the apartment. They wont confirm that the substance found was actually blood.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

The police statements reportedly said that the last time they (the parents) had seen her in the room was about 45min-1hour before they discovered she was abducted. This means that no one echecked on her for one hour or so. Totally irresponsible.

The way I look at it the longer its dealt with as an abduction, the more and more time attention is deflected from the fact that they left her alone. Like I said earlier, if she had not been abducted and had fallen down some stairs, was lying with a broken leg for 45 minutes at the bottom, her parents would have been done for neglect at the least!

I dont like the fact that everytime I read an interview they still say it felt a normal thing to do (i.e to leave a child alone whilst you're out wining and dining), and that it happens all the time, its normal, people do it everyday at home etc etc etc etc.

The bottom line is it happening all the time does not make it right or responsible parenting.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

No, certainly not to my knowledge ? unless you are aware of something i am not ?

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Only that I have seen some 'jokes' floating around regarding 'hide and seek' and her winning the world championship kind of thing?

hmm.. interesting theory here

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Sorry Mr monkey but never seen or heard the jokes in question

Theory ? erm, sounds ever so slightly odd but again whilst unlikely its a possible

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Just to be clear, I wasn't implying you were making the joke, just that the article you saw may have been someone else making a 'joke'.

Just so there's no confusion :)

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Hmmmmmm, makes for interesting reading...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6936214.stm

---------- Post added at 13:36 ---------- Previous post was at 13:36 ----------


Ok, no problem :)

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/index.php?storyID=8144

Pretty horrific if true. :(

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Looks potentially like the parents involvment is now even higher than initially thought

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Crikey! As you said Derek Its pretty horrific. Just looking through some of the links I see no pictures of them with the other 2 kids? I appreciate that they don't want them in the media but I would have thought there would be at least 1 snap.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

A thought perhaps that maybe they do not want their other children in the media spotlight that they seem to enjoy so much ??


As an aside to this, credit to the Portugese police at this point though, up until now (especially on the forensic side of things) I thought they were poor. However, If what i think will unfold over the next couple of weeks does then they have played it very very cleverly indeed.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

As already posted in this very thread, less than an hour ago ;)

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Chris,

This is not a provoking post, but given your past statements on the potential of the parents involvment, can I ask if your views have shifted at all ?

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

You must have quoted just as I changed the URL.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

My view this morning is sadness at the mere possibility that this could have happened. However what I think we should all do is try not to get caught up in the rolling news syndrome, in which journalists are constantly under pressure to form opinions and draw conclusions from incomplete information.

The stuff that is now leaking into the Press would appear to be the same stuff that your colleagues have been privy to, but that in itself doesn't mean it's conclusive.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to wriggle off the hook. I hope I made clear before that I didn't hold 'the parents did it' to be impossible, just highly unlikely for all the reasons I outlined the other day. I still think it's highly unlikely to be honest, and if it should ever prove to be true, I expect to be absolutely gobsmacked by the explanation of it all that would hopefully follow a 'guilty' verdict.

I have read one or two theories being bandied about on other websites and TBH they read like conspiracy theories. It will be amazing and very sad if a conspiracy theory actually turns out to be true for once ...

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Exactly - it's still speculation - and it's going against the 'official' word - at present.
Will be interesting to see if the Portugese police make a comment?

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Thanks for the reponse. there was never any attempt to see you wriggling on a hook, merely to see how your views might have potentially changed thats all. :)

---------- Post added at 12:57 ---------- Previous post was at 12:56 ----------

I would of thought it highly unlikely the Portugese police will comment

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Even if it's just to say it's untrue? (if it is) - to my mind a lack of comment would give more creedence to the allegation

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

If it was untrue then I would of expected the Portugese Police to come out straight away and said so. Could be a case of misinformation (deliberate or otherwise)

The online version of the Daily Mail (Not my favourite newspaper has two interesting articles)

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Hmm.. this whole thing is just becoming one big(ger) mess - very strange for the lawyer to basically attack them - and the level of dislike by the portugese people seems very strange.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Just found this too.

A quote from Gerry McCann on Sky News:

"I am uncomfortable with my celebrity status"

CELEBRITY ??????

and this one too

From an earlier interview with Gerry McCann…


Reporter " how did you feel when Madeleine had gone"?

Gerry "well like as a student when you go to the cash machine and the overdrdaft is gone"

---------- Post added at 13:18 ---------- Previous post was at 13:16 ----------


Oh it gets even more interesting too.


Detective Goncalo Amaral, one of the senior detectives in the hunt for Madeleine, is an official suspect in allegations against police in the Cipriano case.
Three other officers have been accused of torture, a fourth with omitting evidence and a fifth with falsifying documents.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

The link above regarding the phone calls/emails said it was a joint operation between Portuguese and British police. It will be interesting if we hear any statements for the British police later today.

One thing is unclear though to me, the article doesn't mention when the mails/calls were intercepted. I would think it could be possible that they had called a friend, say last week, and said "Maddie's dead", maybe as they have come to accept that.

The timing of these calls/emails (if this is true) is going to be quite important.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Yeah - I can understand that - that's just what I'd feel if someone had taken my child.

Not.

---------- Post added at 13:22 ---------- Previous post was at 13:20 ----------

Sorry, probably being dense - what does that mean? - i.e. is the implication that the McCanns are being set up? -

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

To the best of my knowledge British officers are working behind the scenes and will not comment on front line enquiry matters.

Your second point about acceptance is interesting as I would like to quote the following

Gerry McCann

The above was said last night

---------- Post added at 13:24 ---------- Previous post was at 13:24 ----------

Correct

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Unjustly set up, or just set up

interesting comment here

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

It is the Ciprano where the mother was jailed over the murder of her daughter which is what the Portugese detective (along with others) are being investigated for.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I know - I'm just saying there are some interesting comments in relation to that, on that blog

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Ah right i see. Apologies,

I have yet to find (and someone may be able to correct me) anything from the McCann's stating they had nothing to do with her dissapearance ??

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/arti...096790,00.html

Doesn't say anything about murder...

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

neither does it say that they are not part of the abduction.(An abduction which is looking less likely to have occured by the day)

They are asking other people to believe.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I think the British still haven't confirmed the existance of Echelon (understandably so imo), so I don't think they'll make any comments on whether they've been intercepting calls/emails.

Oops, now I've mentioned "the E word" this thread will be monitored by GCHQ too :(

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Was nice knowing you Gareth. Good luck with your new life at the bottom of the sea.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I think it might be unwise to try to unpick the words of someone who is struggling to comprehend, and explain, the kind of desperation, panic and emptiness that can only come from a situation like this.

Let's not crucify him for not being an accomplished orator, especially while he's under this sort of pressure. Plenty of people have said far worse, with far less excuse.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Odd, he has shown little or no signs of pressure most of the timse he has wheeled himself out in front of the reporters.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Well, instead of frothing at the mouth with noose in hand just waiting to put the McCanns heads through it.

You'll forgive me if I wait for some concrete evidence that they are implicated.

For them to have been involved with her death and carry on this charade, would make them, IMO, the pair of coldest killers in this country since Brady and Hindly. I obviously don't know them, but I can't see it myself.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Who is frothing at the mouth with a noose at the ready ? I dont think anyone has said that they wish this to be the case. Do you ?

Have you forgotten Huntly and Carr also ??

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

If you know of a criminal psychologist who has made some specific statements as a result of watching the McCanns in press conferences, it would be interesting to hear what s/he has said. Otherwise, I think it's very dangerous for us to sit in our armchairs and muse from a great distance about what we perceive their behaviour to be.

Different people react to pressure in different ways. Personally, I tend to lock up any emotion, become very cold and focused and am often accused of being flippant. I'd hate to think that someone started thinking I was responsible for something just because I didn't conform to their personal idea of an 'appropriate' response to it.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

We'll have to have a PM some time to discuss this further :D

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Even if that were the case I would treat it with caution. Criminal Psychology is not quite an exact science is it?

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Maybe not, but the tone of yours, and others, posts - looking for suspicion, and traces of guilt where there is no evidence of such.

There is no evidence to suggest they are involved - yet your mind would seem to be made up??

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I suggest you actually go and read the entire thread before you start making knee jerk assumptions as towards peoples attitudes.

I have quite clearly stated that whilst I dont think it likely it remain a possibility until all evidence disproves it. If you bother to search through my posts it will clearly state this.

Seeing as you obviously have not I hardly think you are in a position to question as to what my state of mind is.

With regards to evidence, again as I have explained before in this very thread I am not going to get into it for very specific reasons.

Never mind, never let the facts get in the way of a blinkered accusation, right ? ;)

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I've been following this thread with interest from the start.

You may state one thing but comments such as:

Shows me that you clearly hold them under deep suspicion, and that you are looking for evidence of such - when there isn't any.

Well that's handy isn't it.

What facts ??? You haven't presented any.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Reading between the lines would suggest from this and other threads that he has access to info through his line of work. Divulging such info on a public forum would possibly get him sacked.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Ok, here we go.


Im adding a post to a discussion on an incredibly important matter where i feel all angles should be covered. If there was something which i thought was interesting to add from a potential suspect (including the original prime suspect) then I would add it. However quite simply there has not been

It's not handy, it's a statement of truth, wether or not you choose to believe it is entirely up to you. Personally I couldnt give two brass tacks.

And the fact(s) I referred to are that I have been open minded with regards what could have happened to that little girl.

It shows you ? unless your psychic then I suggest it shows you nothing.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I am suspicious of the parents. There isn't any concrete evidence to back up my suspicions but its just a gut feeling that they know more than they are letting on.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Maybe so, but without backing up his claims then it's just hearsay and I can't take it seriously.

It may transpire that the McCanns are implicated and that I'm backing the wrong horse, I hope that is not the case, but until there is evidence displayed to the contrary I'm supporting the McCanns instead of trying to demonise them.

---------- Post added at 15:51 ---------- Previous post was at 15:47 ----------

All fine by me, just as long as you are prepared to have your theories/ premises questioned and scrutinised

After all this is what this board is for.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

There are areas that I can and will quite happily discuss, there are specifics with regards to certain areas that i most certainly can not (That I hope you can understand)

Im not trying to demonise anyone, personally with regards to this case there is nothing more I would rather see than this little girl reunited with her parents. If in the instance that she is found dead then I hope the full extent of the law applies to whoever commited such an atrcoious act.

As, I have previously stated if there was something similar on a suspect involved in the investigation, I would post that, at this point in time however there is not. This does not mean that i think them guilty by proxy.

---------- Post added at 15:55 ---------- Previous post was at 15:54 ----------

Absoloutely, however not what your initial post inferred though ??

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I agree. As said earlier, we all react in different ways to the same situation, but I felt very uneasy at the words and actions of the McCann's in various interviews & news conferences. They appear to have chosen their words very carefully in replying to certain questions, never actually saying that they were at fault by leaving their 3 children alone. They probably have one eye on possible future court cases, by not using any words that would incriminate them.

Something else that I found very odd, was the lack, from both parents, of any direct messages to their daughter while they had the chance. Wouldn't most parents look directly into the camera and reassure their child that they miss her, and are doing everything they can to get her back, just in case she is watching. Instead, when asked at a news conference by a reporter if there is anything they want to say to her, they just looked down & mumbled "she knows we love her". Strange reaction from parents who say they are so convinced she is still alive.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

There's a pic here of two of the family friends http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...e_id=1811&ct=5

Right click on it and view properties :erm: Someone trying to drop a hint?! :disturbd:

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I think 'split' refers to the fact that the pic is composed of two separate photos.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Not that one, the two women under the pic of the McCanns.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

That is odd indeed :D

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

More importantly, how the hell did you find that???

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I thought people were meant to concentrate on the roads when they were having driving lessons...........:erm::D

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

I can't take the credit for that observation, i was reading somewhere that pointed me to Mike Hitchem's blog and he mentioned it somewhere in it.

He's got strong opinions on all this, by the way- http://ionglobaltrends.blogspot.com/...-kate-and.html

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Have never been picture properties surfing and looking at the alt tag description? It's fun - if you've got nothing better to do - some can be amazing!

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

The rolling news media of the missing toddler, is slowly getting on my wick, each day you read different articles about what the media ' think' has happened, this forum is probabely being read by members of the McCann family, what the hell do you think they are saying, we have to go on what is ACTUALLY happening, in Portugal, here we have a young girl who is probabely being held against her will, l still believe that she is alive, so lets hope and pray she arrives safely in the arms of her parents - irrespective of what they did at the restuarant, l am sorry if l have sounded angry in this article, but lets look at the positive side, as papers have a job to sell papers, and they put any bull****to sell them.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

Hey you're entitled to your own opinion just like everyone else. :)

Just don't expect everyone to agree with it though, works both ways. (But all have to agree with the hope she's alive etc, that goes without saying, but unfortuanatly it's looking doubtful now).

And if you don't like what's in the papers, you don't have to buy/read them.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday
 

1) How is it PROBABLY being read by the McCann family ? I'm interested to know how you made that deduction.

2) Do you know the timelines from when somebody goes missing that an investigation moves from potential for being alive to that of looking for a corpse ? (regardless of what is said publicly)

3) On what basis do you believe in her still being alive ? Perhaps hope would be a more suitable choice of word

4) Irrespective of what they did at the resteraunt ? Erm, how about if they had been responsible. Then with high probability this would never had happened (If you believe that this is an abduction scenario)