re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

No its good to have some opposing pov's with a basis in reality thanks Damien.

The services issue does disturb me too, we are unevenly balanced in that regard, and as our non services infrastructure isn't anything like it was pre- Common Market, it is something to consider.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What do you actually mean by 'tighten up our border and immigration controls'?

We are not in the Schengen Agreement, and check the passport of everyone who enters this country - if we have intelligence, we will not let suspected terrorists in/arrest them; if we don't have any intelligence on them, how do we know they are a threat?

What would you actually have the Border Agency do, in addition to what they do now?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Is there any point to this thread? Everyone seems set in their views and is convincing no one ....

Maybe best to go out and campaign on the streets if you feel that strongly, whatever your view.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Actually, I am leaning towards voting to leave, but on the cusp, and if someone could provide factual information, it would influence me - however, it's seems to be mainly lack of substance emotive sweeping statements like 'oh noes, we will have an economic crash if we leave' from the Stay In group, or 'we can only have secure borders if we leave' from the Leavers, which neither side seems to want to substantiate, or if they do, they provide no detail or substance.

Both sides seem to be trading on fear, doubt, and uncertainty, so I feel like wishing a plague in both their houses...

I am watching Daily Politics, and the Brexit speaker conflates secure borders and not being able to kick out people who break our laws - I agree with the second point, but the first point is just a meaningless soundbite, because no one will give any details of how they would better secure our borders...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That I must agree with but immigration is foremost on peoples minds and it is being used as a lever by Brexit. Don't forget whichever side has to appeal to the masses if they wish to win and play on their fears.

I'm all for Brexit but not just on the issue of immigration. I'm a firm believer that it is the people of this country who should decide their own future without interference from Europe via their own elected government.

Yes- we have elected MEP's but they are a minority in the EU parliament and always will be they may be able to speak for Britain but can and do get overruled and outvoted by the other 27 countries unless they do backdoor deals with other nation states to get their backing.

This backdoor dealing may be giving away more of our sovreign rights but we will never know as it's all done behind closed doors. "Back me on this, I'll back you on that." I'd rather have Arthur Daley doing the deals thankyou. At least I knew he was a shady geezer.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I am not sure where you can get concrete facts unfortunately. This is partly because a lot of it is unknown. Pro-EU people can't say for sure if Cameron's deal will hold or what is in store for the future of the EU and Brexiters can't confirm the terms of any hypothetical trade deal.

I think Full Fact: https://fullfact.org/ is the least biased source I have seen. They have a number of articles that are inconvenient for both sides.

Now entering my biased mode I think the FT is good. The paper is pro-EU so keep that in mind but they've done a good job of presenting both sides of the debate IMO: https://next.ft.com/stream/topicsId/...2NzAy-VG9waWNz

For example they've given space to Brexit columnists and publish articles about the benefits of leaving (as I linked to before).

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The could start by stopping people coming into the UK in the backs of lorries or do they have passports too? ;)

I imagine you, like nearly all of us, don't readily let strangers into our homes. We behave in this way not because they're all crooks, we all know that statistically the reverse is massively true. We do it because we have no idea who they are and we're aware that they may pose a risk. Why would we treat illegal migrants any differently? Why would them being 'unknown' be a reason for not having any concerns about their motives and intentions? To my mind, we ought to be far more careful about those who come here illegally for the very reason that they are unknown and have already broken the law by doing so.

That still, of course, leaves those who can obtain convincing forged documents or come here using bona fide documents but with ulterior motives but surely that fact isn't a reason for not closing off other routes for them to get in.

Clearly whatever border controls are in place in the UK aren't sufficient. Now of course that has nothing directly to do with Schengen and is an issue for HMG to tackle but I reckon there'd be far fewer migrants in Calais if there'd been checks at every border crossing between Calais and their points of entry into the EU. The unwillingness of the EU to accept what's patently obvious and change a flawed policy causing serious problems is great cause for concern IMHO and adds to the reasons we should get out.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I agree but that would be true even if we were out of Europe though. Schengen is a stupid idea.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

See the rest of my post which deals with that but obviously crossed with yours in the ether. :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

This could have gone in a number of threads but I plumped for this one:

Linky

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Oh dear, the last endorsement I want is Trump's. :nutter:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Cheers Donald, that's the 'remain' campaign home and dry ! :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Probably just balances out Bliar's endorsement for the stay campaign. ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yean and that says a lot about him... :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

http://www.comres.co.uk/polls/itv-ne...ferendum-poll/
7 point lead for remain here. Thought I'd share the good news ;)