Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05...maden_privacy/
Privacy? Forget it. Sell your brain and desires to the highest bidder

Web $9.95

Page: 1 2 3 Next >
By Ashlee Vance in Santa Clara → More by this author
Rate this story https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/05/4.pnghttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/05/4.pnghttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/05/4.pnghttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/05/4.pnghttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/05/4.pnghttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/05/4.pnghttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/05/4.pnghttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/05/4.pnghttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/05/4.pnghttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/05/4.pnghttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/05/5.png
Published Sunday 18th May 2008 21:14 GMT

---------- Post added at 22:55 ---------- Previous post was at 22:50 ----------

http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2...ges-all-alike/
"
Twisty little passages, all alike

May 18th, 2008 at 19:29 UTC by Richard Clayton
Last month, on the 4th April, I published a document describing how the Phorm system worked and blogged about what I thought of the scheme.

The document had been run past Phorm’s technical people to ensure it was correct, but — it turns out — there were still a handful of errors in it.

A number of helpful people pointed out that I’d misdescribed third-party cookies (which didn’t matter much because Phorm specifically uses first-party cookies), and I’d managed to reference RFC2695 rather than RFC2965 !
....
The Phorm system does some of its tracking magic by redirecting browser requests using HTTP 307 responses.

When this was first explained to me at the meeting with Phorm there were two redirections (a scan of my notes is here), but having thought about this for a while, I asked for it to be explained to me again later on, and it turned out that I had previously been misled, and that there were in fact three redirections (here’s my notes of this part of the meeting).

It now turns out, following my further emails with Phorm, that there are in fact FOUR redirections occurring! This is not because my notes are rubbish — but because Phorm have managed to recall more of the detail of their own system!
...
"
"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/05/37.jpg
RED DWARF NONSENSE, the toaster must die.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Wouldn't disabling a UPnP Service completely bugger a "smart toaster"?



:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks very much for that. I think it’s more likely that this is Phorm modifying their system in the light of criticism. If they had thought that people blocking webwise.net cookies would be an exception, they may have been happy for those people to incur a significant performance penalty. That’s a normal strategy for optimising computer systems; shift the cost to the exceptional circumstances. They may have realised that either many more people will be blocking webwise.net cookies or that they will get too much criticism for ruining the browsing of those people who do, and have therefore shifted some of the cost back on to everyone else.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Or they have`nt a clue what it does how it does it and what happens after, hell the system belongs in china and any other country thats censors the internet.

---------- Post added at 09:11 ---------- Previous post was at 09:00 ----------

Just wondering, what would the thing do with Valve`s Steam front end? after all its a browser and I cannot see them be pleased to see their front end changed with adverts from a unpaid 3rd party.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

... or happy about the content presented through Steam being copied and used to sell computer games by other manufacturers.

Its an interesting point. I'll check tonight what user-agent Steam uses. If its anything like OpenOffice, Microsoft Office etc it will be identical to Internet Explorer, and Phorm will not be able to help themselves but scam the content (which would include lists of your online friends for example).

The other thought I have about apps like Steam, how do you think you are going to express your wish to opt in/out? How is that going to be stored by Steam? (does it retain cookies for third parties?)

Pete.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good Morning All, Just seen this, I don't think there is anything new in it but here it is. -

http://www.clickz.com/showPage.html?page=3629536

Regards to all. davethejag

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Nowt new but makes you laugh though, they went and warned their customers where the others had not and the thing really hitting the fan, also see how they avoid to answer the questions asked, makes you wonder if they all have no idea how it works, or they do and refusing to tell as it`s too nastie and only fit for censorship, the ad side is a by product of it`s true means.


oh there is other game apps that run their own ad`s as well, EA for one.

what about the playstion3 and xbox360 the former can surf the web.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

an intersting reply from BT today

************

I am sorry that you feel this way and can confirm that you will not be affected by webwise/phorm.

This is only available as an option to customers like yourself. If you do not change to this option then you will not be affected by webwise/Phorm therefore no changes to your contractual agreement.

The people that do opt for this option will have a modified contract that they will be made aware of before they take up this option.

If you should have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact us again via e-mail.

************

i am pressing for more details on the process and if cookies are still on the opt-out process

but BT seem to be backing off a bit from phorm,

i am also waiting final details of buying out my contract from them, whether one off payment or still monthly on my phone bill until the end of the contract

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Any news on whether VM will ditch it?

I haven't read the thread properly, sorrry :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's new! So opt in/out will result in separate T&C's now?


Not Phorm but interesting if you substitute IP address for IMEI code ....

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...tracked-mobile

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Nothing new yet.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That sounds like an account level opt-in, maybe they've abandonned the opt-out cookie!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

internal pressure from the VM staff been told this.

if thats the way Bt going to do it then sounds to me they doing it the same way they run BTFON opt in via hubs s/n or mac actual phone number, so no redirects for the normal user unless they stupid and click the opt in.

---------- Post added at 13:42 ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 ----------

just found this on the reg
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05...ox_data_snoop/
well if they do go down that route they be losing the browser war %

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Having just read Richard Clayton's re-revised Phorm explanatory document 18 May 2008, I was concerned about certain paragraphs.
Forgive me if I have misunderstood them but the document was a lengthy read.

Paragraph 72. In the meeting itself, Phorm said that the reason for not centralising the Channel Server function was that they were concerned about EU regulations concerning moving personal data outside of Europe.

Paragraph 73. I then pointed out that it was Phorm's contention that the {channel/UID/timestamp} information was completely anonymised and hence there would be no movement of data that could fall foul of the regulations - to which they responded that they wished to ensure that they were not being perceived to break the rules, even though they did not believe they would do so.

So, Phorm don't collect any personal data, but just to ensure they don't fall foul of the regulations, should any personal data be collected, it will not leave Europe.

Paragraph 77. It is Phorm's belief that it is not possible for the Channel Server (the part of the system operated by them) to make a link back to any particular individual.

It would be nice to have a bit more assurances than a belief that it isn't possible. I would suggest that it probably IS possible but they want to cover their backsides if it ever comes to light.

It would seem that the more that Phorm is pressed, the more unfavourable information emerges.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I would ask them if you can cancel your contract if you find you have been diverted to phorms servers to see if you are opted in or out since you wish to not be intercepted at all.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Because I think this deserves it's own thread (rather than diverting this one), I have created one: http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/25...l#post34555467

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

getting further

just in from BT

****************

Dear Mr XXXXXXXX,

Thank you for your e-mail.

No problems whatsoever, I understand your situation and will gladly assist you in anyway possible.

If you stay on what you are on then your data stream will be on a none intercepted path like it is now. BT cannot and will not do anything to disrupt the flow without your consent on taking up the option of webwise/phorm.

This is still in trial period mode at the moment and more details will be available if this option is launched officially.

The charge if you cease your broadband service will be as one lump sum and if you decide that moving is the way forward for you then I will be able to supply you a MAC Code.

I look forward to your next correspondence.

Thank you for contacting BT.

Yours sincerely,

Jamie XXXXXX
eContact Customer Service

************

"This is still in trial period mode at the moment " ????, does this mean the trial is running??

"If you stay on what you are on then your data stream will be on a none intercepted path like it is now", this seems to be a network address based system so things can be routed

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

if I read that right "This is still in trial period mode at the moment " I would read that as they are using it now.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I would say this is now in use but what you want really is written assurances that once trial is over and if they go down the phorm path will you be intercepted then. I think BT are dealing in a crafty way not wanting to lose more customers yet still trying to manipulate people into the trap for them to earn big monwy from the clicks...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

that statement is false, weather as a mis-informed agent of BT or an outright lie to keep you in the contract is yet to be determined OC.

take a look at the information they placed in the public domain picture for that official upcoming trial and its clear they can not do anything but intercept,collect and process your Auto Copyrighted dataflow as layed out.

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12...l#post34524675

also we know that BT retail cant assign static ISP given IP address to you the customer as an opted-in Phorm 'data provider for profit' as they dont have the means to do that, only BT wholesale can do that apparently.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well, it seems the ICO are bottling out. I got a reply from them which included:

The Information Commissioner does not have responsibility for advising on or enforcing the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA). I should also make clear that the Information Commissioners Office does not have responsibility for advising on or enforcing the Computer Misuse Act 1990.

If they don't have responsibility for RIPA or the CMA, who the hell does?

And we still don't know what, if any, action Virgin are taking. Dammit, we shouldn't have to use Dephormation or TrackMeNot - this crap should not be bloody happening! We're supposed to have laws about this!

The ICO's reply pointed me here - I don't know if anyone's seen this, or how meaningful it is.

I don't know, I really don't. IronKey is looking a more and more attractive prospect - if the advertisers aren't careful, the next stage might be that users will start calling for their ISPs to provide encryption and/or VPN by default for every activity, not just credit card transactions. It'll be a step backward - the Internet is supposed to be open access, but they're pushing us towards a closed model just so we can stop them pestering us.

From First Contact:

"The line must be drawn here! This far, no further!"

To which the advertisers reply: RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. ALL YOUR DATA ARE BELONG TO US. YOU BELONG TO US. WE WILL ADD YOUR BIOLOGICAL AND TECHNOLOGICAL DISTINCTIVENESS TO OUR OWN AND UTILISE IT TO INCREASE OUR PROFITS EVEN THOUGH YOU MOST LIKELY WILL BE UNABLE TO AFFORD ANY OF OUR PRODUCTS GIVEN THE WAY THE ECONOMY IS GOING.

Well, we shall see.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Has anyone else noticed that BT have added more to their retain customers package? Now they have added a mobile broadband facility!

Is this to sweeten the deal for the bitter pill, 'Webwise', that they want their customers to swallow? Pile on the packages so they make it more difficult for customers to leave the festering pustule, BT.



Here is a bonus treat for CF forum readers: brought to you by the guys at Badphorm

"CrunchBase Phorm entry:"
http://badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?5860

described as a "Like a wiki but for companies:"

Go ahead and follow the links and have your say about Phorm, make sure business people get to read the true background on Phormscum. Feel free to edit the Phorm description, diagrams and personel ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

NebuAd isnt filled in yet, go to it you US and Canadian (and oz ?) users.

http://www.crunchbase.com/company/nebuad

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi All, Just seen this. -

http://www.security.itproportal.com/...stomers-usage/

Regards to all, davethejag

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

that is just standard data retention, basically where you looked and when. dns logs which when combined with DHCP logs allow law enforcment to confirm if you looked at a particular site and when, but a warrant is required before the ISP hands over the info. same as the phone side so they can check (with a warrant) who you called and when

standard stuff as covered under ripa 2000, just been made more formal under EU law

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The ICO should be enforcing PECR (which should guarantee that your privacy is protected by explicit opt in)... Try asking them why they haven't assigned a case worker, and highlight PECR.

Regards RIPA, it seems the Home Office may have responsibility for enforcement, but they consider they have 'no investigatory role'. You should also be able to report to your local Police, Scotland Yard/SOCA investigated the News of the World case for the Royal Family... but they can't be bothered to investigate for 100,000+ ordinary people.

Regards Computer Misuse, I understand again it should be your local Police. But if your experience turns out anything like mine, they won't investigate, claiming its a Home Office responsibility or implying that someone 'higher up' is investigating, or demanding absolute proof (which you can't have unless you have a search warrant for an ISP). Essentially, they will say anything to avoid investigating.

So its a pretty depressing story really.

DON'T LET THAT STOP YOU REPORTING IT.

Its really important these complaints keep adding up. I know of around half a dozen to a dozen complaints to various Police forces (including Avon, Metropolitan) that have so far gone uninvestigated, despite the flagrant admission by Emma Sanderson on TV. I know of only one instances of the ICO assigning 'a case worker' (for what that's worth).


Incidentally, I was in IKEA at the weekend looking for a solution to the perpetual problem of 'wasted space'. The thought ocurred to me that the ICO could be replaced by a more useful Billy bookcase unit.


.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hot Tip

There'll be a piece on Phorm in the Economist's quarterly tech supplement in the 6 June edition.

:)

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

its interesting that Phorm or inter-ISP DPI interception for commercial profit doesnt get a mention in this latest "state of Information Security in UK" report http://www.security.itproportal.com/...n-security-uk/

but when you take the official No.s of Uk business Dependence on IT web connections and introduce this unlawful interception,data collection and processing for profit, plus using this interception to make those "unauthorised derivative work's" it seems they have a lot of extra work to do and need to expend a LOT MORE CASH at protecting their copyrights and company secrets from other commercial entitys etc...
against the likes of Phorm and the intercepting ISPs they are using today.

http://www.pwc.co.uk/pdf/BERR_ISBS_2008(sml).pdf
"


PAYE data is a big driver here.
...
"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So these ISPs are now installing switches and black boxes on their networks that not only they don't have fully documented details of the code on the box but the developer company does not or cannot explain how it works either. Priceless.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm still wondering why 80/20 are still working with Phorm given that this clause of their ethics policy has presumably been violated (no videos of the Phorm meeting):

"Any instance of deception or dishonesty by an 80/20 client during the course of our work will result in the termination of that relationship."

Maybe if Phorm puts the videos up in 2015, it still counts? Or maybe the ethical code is a wee bit flexible?

On another note, I'll be fascinated to hear what the chairman of a notorious PR company has to say about privacy at 80/20's launch party tomorrow, not to mention a BT manager. Plus a representative from that bastion of online privacy, AOL... I wonder if Kent will be there too! All power to the Earl of Northesk contending with that lot.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That contradicts everything BT have said to me so far privately, that is attributable, and also what they have said on the Webwise FAQ.

They have committed to giving 24 hours notice for the trials. No such notice has been given. If they start trials without notice (again) then they really would be in deep PR doodoo - so I don't believe they are currently trialling - they are trying hard to get the trials started, and may well be trialling internally but I don't see how the trial can have started.

They have always said so far - no information in advance on the final rollout.
Secondly that they were working on a cookie free "not opting in" method, and thirdly - no comment on the actual methodology to be used in the trials until they were ready to start.

Knowing BT - the most likely reason for any confusion is poor internal communication.

You can check the current Webwise FAQ here

On the official Webwise site (sets a session cookie, and is not hosted by BT - the IPs resolve to Fasthosts)
http://webwise.bt.com/webwise/index.html

or on the main BT site (may not be identical - BT are v poor at synchronising different sets of pages)
http://www.productsandservices.bt.co...=CON-WEBWISE-I

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Further thinking about the above, I am sure Phorm would much rather have a central Channel Server - everything that is farmed and profiled would be sent to one location, and that could be anywhere!
So, to say the only reason not to is because 'they wished to ensure that they were not being perceived to break the rules' seems a little far-fetched. Or am I being over paranoid?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

doh my bad was reading wrong page like :P

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yeah... We're all still wondering the same thing Julian (even Alexander is probably shaking his head but like he says, someone needs to try and work with these 3rd party plonkers like K*nt or we'll not know what's going on until it is too late)

Another good point. Although going by the current speed of the GOvernment's answers, it will be Christmas before he gets any answers to new questions.

From here: http://www.publications.parliament.u...d/ldordpap.htm

Questions asked: 24 April
Due for answer: 8 May

HL3267 Earl of Northesk [HO]
HL3268 Earl of Northesk [HO]

Come on Home Office... The Earl is waiting for answers, my MP is waiting for answers, I'm waiting... BT are probably waiting. In fact I bet the ICO, Police, Kent and his concerned investors are even waiting ...We're all bleedin' waiting!!

Hank

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Speaking of waiting. Apologies if I missed it happening, but am I right in thinking the PIA is still MIA?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

hmm , while researching for the latest Docsis and cable news i came across this old news now as referenced below.

are we looking at a US,UK or even world cable wide DPI interception tied into this cable "Project Canoe" advertising tracking software project?

http://www.lightreading.com/document...54112&site=cdn
"The Cable Show: A Five Item Previewhttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/09/22.gifMAY 17, 2008

...
Advanced advertising
This show will offer as good a time as any for "Project Canoe" to drop the veil and at least acknowledge a few more things, since plenty of details about the effort has leaked out already. (See Cable's 'Canoe' RFI Paddles Toward Deadline and Who's Rowing 'Project Canoe'? and Verklin to Helm Cable Ad Initiative?.)
"
http://www.lightreading.com/document...34343&site=cdn

Cable's 'Canoe' RFI Paddles Toward Deadlinehttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/09/22.gif
SEPTEMBER 19, 2007https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/09/22.gifDiscuss >https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/09/22.gifhttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/09/22.gif
As many as 60 vendors could reply to a request for information (RFI) from CableLabs that will form the basis of a common, industry-wide back-office and architecture for advanced advertising applications and services.

The project, multiple sources have confirmed, carries the internal code-name of "Canoe," with the idea that it will ensure that all cable MSOs paddle in the same technical direction, and give advertisers the ability to "buy cable" across the board with ease, and without the headaches of supporting disparate ad systems and technologies.


It's a big deal," a source says of the CableLabs-led project, which is carrying regular and high-level participation from the top MSOs. Adding interactive elements to the mix could also help to jumpstart a sluggish cable local ad sales market. At Comcast Corp. (Nasdaq: CMCSA, CMCSK), for example, ad sales make up about 6 percent of its overall revenue.

"The cable industry is definitely interested in building a next-generation interactive advertising platform," says another person familiar with Canoe.


..
Although little technical detail is known about Canoe, it's expected to define common interfaces and systems for a set of advanced advertising services, including targeted ads, addressable spots, and "telescoping" VOD ads,...."

cable "Project Canoe"
http://search.virginmedia.com/result...ct+Canoe%22&cr=

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Last email I had from 80/20 (last week) said the information they had been waiting on was now in, and the project was "nearing completion".

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi All, just seen this (nothing new)!

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/internet/0,1...9419839,00.htm

Regards to all, davethejag

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

its a pitty we didnt know about this
Mobile Livecasting service during the PIA meeting this would have been better than nothing for a public record of the Q&A

http://www.dailywireless.org/2008/05/19/7771/


Now anyone can stream live video from a mobile phone. DailyWireless.org is
even equipping a van for Live Casting. Consider PocketCaster from ComVu. ComVu’s PocketCaster streams video from your phone to your video blog or homepage.
http://www.comvu.com/images/pocketcaster_n95.jpg

Re: Virgin Media and BT both part of the ISPA
 

I don't know if this has already been brought to everyone's attention, but both VM and BT are members of the ISPA:

http://www.ispa.org.uk/

All ISPA members are Obliged to conform to a code of practice.

The ISPA code of practice is here:

http://www.ispa.org.uk/about_us/page_16.html

The complaints page is, of course, here:

http://www.ispa.org.uk/complaints/

:D

Re: Virgin Media and BT both part of the ISPA
 

Obliged except that the ISPA don't enforce their own code of practice. At least, not against their biggest fee paying member. :(

The complaints procedure seems to be, complain to BT. After you fail to reach a satisfactory conclusion, your or BT refer the case (at their discretion presumably) to ISPA. ISPA immediately do a slopey shoulders and send you to something called OTELO that I've never heard of.

See this thread on BadPhorm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

One for the techies regarding Richard Clayton's blog and the 'suddenly remembered' fourth redirect.

http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2...ges-all-alike/

Could this extra hop be the result of some frantic redesign work in preparation for the BT trial? If so, does it tell us anything about what they are worried about?

They would, of course, have to 'remember' about behaviour that is detectably different from that disclosed to Dr Clayton previously. Otherwise they would look like they are trying to hide something.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

this is a tracert i did the other day and kept for reference

Tracing route to www.l.google.com [66.249.91.103]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 21 ms 99 ms 99 ms api.home [192.168.1.254]
2 63 ms 72 ms 72 ms esr11.kingston5.broadband.bt.net [217.47.66.142]

3 70 ms 90 ms 54 ms 217.47.66.13
4 57 ms 19 ms 254 ms 217.41.217.1
5 66 ms 74 ms 72 ms 217.41.217.66
6 17 ms 71 ms 71 ms 217.41.171.58
7 17 ms 20 ms 72 ms 217.47.46.43
8 78 ms 70 ms 72 ms core1-pos12-1.kingston.ukcore.bt.net [62.6.40.90
]
9 59 ms 73 ms 71 ms core1-pos0-9-5-0.ilford.ukcore.bt.net [194.74.65
.197]
10 82 ms 98 ms 102 ms core1-pos6-0-0.redbus.ukcore.bt.net [194.74.65.1
98]
11 62 ms 101 ms 98 ms 195.99.125.110
12 196 ms 72 ms 73 ms 216.239.43.123
13 31 ms 35 ms 49 ms 209.85.255.137
14 41 ms 44 ms 294 ms 72.14.233.77
15 330 ms 266 ms 303 ms ik-in-f103.google.com [66.249.91.103]

Trace complete.

seems to be a lot of running round in the bt network to unnamed routers

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Without giving too much away to these muppets, there is a simpler way to achieve what they are trying to do, with none of the complication implied by 4x redirect... and complete compliance with opt in by end users.

So what can we learn from what they are doing? The redirects tell you something very straightfoward. Here's the detail...

For each redirect you should assume an increasing degree of incompetence on the part of the designer. So BT clearly have a 4* idiot doing their design work. (On a scale whereby Mr Bean is a 1* idiot, Keystone Kops 2* idiots, the Chuckle Brothers 3*, and Freddy Star might qualify as a 5* idiot ).

This is the work of someone who should never never be allowed near a national computer network, and never never be trusted with any aspect of technical privacy or security. :doh:

Its so laughably cr@p I'd be ROFL if I wasn't so horrified that they are still seemingly intent on breaking the law.

BT customers, do yourself a favour. Give up on these people, its irretrievable. :dig:

Move to an ISP who understands how the internet works, respects your privacy/security, respects content copyright, and particularly an ISP who isn't employing an idiot.

Pete

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

% Information related to '217.47.30.0 - 217.47.153.255'

inetnum: 217.47.30.0 - 217.47.153.255
netname: BT-MIDBAND
descr: RAS Boxes
country: GB
admin-c: KJH5-RIPE
tech-c: KJH5-RIPE
status: ASSIGNED PA
remarks: Please send abuse notification to abuse@bt.net
mnt-by: BTNET-MNT
mnt-lower: BTNET-MNT
mnt-routes: BTNET-MNT
source: RIPE # Filtered

person: Ken Hayes
remarks: *TECHNICAL CONTACT ONLY*
remarks: *DO NOT CONTACT IN CASES OF ABUSE*
remarks: *Please e-mail abuse notification to
remarks: abuse@btbroadband.com*
address: Broadband Platform Team
address: UK
phone: +44 1922 706028
nic-hdl: KJH5-RIPE
mnt-by: BTNET-MNT
source: RIPE # Filtered
inetnum: 217.41.216.0 - 217.41.218.255
netname: BT-MIDBAND
descr: BtnMidband
country: GB
admin-c: KJH5-RIPE
tech-c: KJH5-RIPE
status: ASSIGNED PA
remarks: Please send abuse notification to abuse@bt.net
mnt-by: BTNET-MNT
mnt-lower: BTNET-MNT
mnt-routes: BTNET-MNT
source: RIPE # Filtered

person: Ken Hayes
remarks: *TECHNICAL CONTACT ONLY*
remarks: *DO NOT CONTACT IN CASES OF ABUSE*
remarks: *Please e-mail abuse notification to
remarks: abuse@btbroadband.com*
address: Broadband Platform Team
address: UK
phone: +44 1922 706028
nic-hdl: KJH5-RIPE
mnt-by: BTNET-MNT
source: RIPE # Filtered

inetnum: 217.41.168.0 - 217.41.176.255
netname: BT-MIDBAND
descr: BT-MIDBAND
country: GB
admin-c: KJH5-RIPE
tech-c: KJH5-RIPE
status: ASSIGNED PA
remarks: Please send abuse notification to abuse@bt.net
mnt-by: BTNET-MNT
mnt-lower: BTNET-MNT
mnt-routes: BTNET-MNT
source: RIPE # Filtered

person: Ken Hayes
remarks: *TECHNICAL CONTACT ONLY*
remarks: *DO NOT CONTACT IN CASES OF ABUSE*
remarks: *Please e-mail abuse notification to
remarks: abuse@btbroadband.com*
address: Broadband Platform Team
address: UK
phone: +44 1922 706028
nic-hdl: KJH5-RIPE
mnt-by: BTNET-MNT
source: RIPE # Filtered

inetnum: 217.47.30.0 - 217.47.153.255
netname: BT-MIDBAND
descr: RAS Boxes
country: GB
admin-c: KJH5-RIPE
tech-c: KJH5-RIPE
status: ASSIGNED PA
remarks: Please send abuse notification to abuse@bt.net
mnt-by: BTNET-MNT
mnt-lower: BTNET-MNT
mnt-routes: BTNET-MNT
source: RIPE # Filtered

person: Ken Hayes
remarks: *TECHNICAL CONTACT ONLY*
remarks: *DO NOT CONTACT IN CASES OF ABUSE*
remarks: *Please e-mail abuse notification to
remarks: abuse@btbroadband.com*
address: Broadband Platform Team
address: UK
phone: +44 1922 706028
nic-hdl: KJH5-RIPE
mnt-by: BTNET-MNT
source: RIPE # Filtered

% Information related to '217.32.0.0/12AS2856'

route: 217.32.0.0/12
descr: BT Public Internet Service
origin: AS2856
mnt-by: BTNET-MNT
source: RIPE # Filtered

odf file on RAS http://www.patton.com/datasheet/remo...ide_lo-res.pdf

Just to give you a comparison from another ISP to google

Tracing route to www.l.google.com [216.239.59.99]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms my.router [192.168.1.1]
2 15 ms 14 ms 15 ms ironwood.dsl.enta.net [87.127.229.6]
3 14 ms 14 ms 14 ms vlan4002.telehouse-east.dsl.enta.net [87.127.229
.1]
4 14 ms 14 ms 14 ms te5-2.telehouse-east.core.enta.net [62.249.192.1
21]
5 14 ms 16 ms 14 ms te4-3.global-switch.core.enta.net [87.127.236.82
]
6 15 ms 14 ms 14 ms te4-3.telehouse-north.core.enta.net [87.127.236.
41]
7 15 ms 15 ms 15 ms 72.14.198.46
8 15 ms 14 ms 14 ms 209.85.252.40
9 29 ms 25 ms 30 ms 209.85.250.216
10 27 ms 27 ms 27 ms 72.14.232.241
11 28 ms 29 ms 30 ms 216.239.49.126
12 28 ms 26 ms 29 ms 216.239.59.99

Trace complete.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

How do you do a tracert?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you are using windows xp.

Click the start button,then click on run,in the box titled "open:" , type in the letters cmd ,then hit your enter key or click ok.

Then in the next screen that pops up , just type tracert followed by a space , then type in the web address of who you want to trace the route to, e.g www.google.com then hit the enter key to begin the trace.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Phone calls database considered

:mad:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Geeeeeeee wat next. :shocked:

[Edit]

Hi bigsanta11

Thank you for the info

[Edit]

Trace for Google

Tracing route to www.l.google.com [66.102.9.104]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 2 ms 1 ms 1 ms 192.168.2.1
2 8 ms 7 ms 10 ms 10.157.84.1
3 9 ms 7 ms 12 ms midd-t2cam1-b-v108.inet.ntl.com [213.106.238.173
]
4 9 ms 8 ms 9 ms midd-dpim1-8-coc-1-gw.service.virginmedia.net [6
2.254.64.185]
5 14 ms 8 ms 11 ms midd-t3core-1a-ge-100-0.inet.ntl.com [62.254.64.
145]
6 11 ms 9 ms 9 ms lee-bb-a-so-130-0.inet.ntl.com [213.105.75.45]
7 17 ms 17 ms 28 ms pop-bb-b-as1-0.inet.ntl.com [62.253.185.238]
8 17 ms 17 ms 15 ms tele-ic-2-as0-0.inet.ntl.com [62.253.184.6]
9 47 ms 15 ms 15 ms 212.250.14.138
10 19 ms 15 ms 16 ms 209.85.255.175
11 31 ms 29 ms 26 ms 209.85.251.190
12 28 ms 27 ms 28 ms 64.233.174.187
13 40 ms 36 ms 36 ms 64.233.174.14
14 48 ms 28 ms 27 ms lm-in-f104.google.com [66.102.9.104]
Trace complete.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

people need to get a grip,

this is only a call log database, not the content.

it will just be a list of numbers dialled and recieved, same as the phone companies keep now for billing and billing disputes

the same with web traffic, it is only a formalisation of the dns, dhcp logs they already keep, so plod or other can get a warrant and check if you spoke to someone they are investigating or downloaded the anarchist cook book

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is a bit of a distraction tbh.

Its a government measure, which I find distasteful, but not a commercial marketing exploit like Phorm.

I believe in Germany this type of retrospective evidence collection is unconstitutional (Police are allowed to collect evidence AFTER they have a warrant, not BEFORE they have a warrant)... but that's a debate for a different thread IMHO.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Soon all newborn will be given chip implants at birth. And your every move throughout the world will be monitored.


It would seem that in the US, they are now actively discussing the legality of web monitoring for ads.

NebuAd refused to disclose what advertising networks--such as DoubleClick or Microsoft's Aquantive--it uses, or what broadband providers it counts as customers. So did Phorm and Front Porch (which said it could not arrange an interview).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

it was also in the times as well

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle3965033.ece

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If its just tracking then they could already be doing it

http://www.tfot.info/news/1032/hitac...rfid-chip.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well, I've just had another letter from Tim Boswell saying that he's noted my helpful further comments on the phorm/webwise issue. Looking forward to seeing what he gets done.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Lets not get diverted by other matters all deserve their own threads for discussions since they all need a different type of battle this is the present battle and this does need to be rained in. Phorm/webwise with its patent and manipulated by an untrustworthy scriptor has the ability to take over your identity, all from your own PC and from within your ISP....

That is the main link that the ISP is willing to allow rootkit servers on their network.

So come on anything that you feel is invading your privacy start a new thread you can link to it so others will not miss it but please let us keep on track here...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sort of related...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technolog...d_consent.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

X-Post from badphorm, I just noticed a subtle change (I think) to the wording on webwise.bt.com site.

Instead of saying

BT Webwise is not available until BT Webwise is switched on.

It now says...

The Webwise feature is not available at this time.

Not sure what significance (if any) this has. But someone is clearly twiddling with it.

Rob? Any ideas?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

International working group set up to investigate legal solutions to informed consent, managed by 80/20 thinking.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What's wrong with the current solution?

Not convenient enough for Phorm I suppose!

:mad:


EDIT: Still I suppose Simon "Two Hats" will get to pay his mortgage on time from the proceeds

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

How about asking them up front, clearly and succinctly?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There's nothing wrong with the current solution, unless you've broken the law already.

Then you need to change the law (retrospectively) or buy an opinion, to avoid prison.

I understand the working group will be filmed, and the entire event will be placed unedited on the Web shortly.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Nope. No idea at all and I have nothing to add! Its gone v quiet! (I think they'll attack at dawn)

I see BT are still basically advertising a cookie based opt-out, with an option to block www.webwise.net cookies as a permanent opt-out if you do't want webwise cookies on your computer.

No sign on the FAQ of a change to opt-IN but then the Webwise trial is Opt-IN anyway and they aren't saying anything about the final design of Webwise at this point. I think they have realised that the safest way to avoid putting their feet in their mouths is to keep their mouths closed.

No sign either of how the Webwise trial invitation is to be issued - whether by illegal interception of a browsing request for a 3rd party site or merely by a legal customer service message when a customer visits BT-ISP customer pages such as bt.com or BTYahoo Homepage or BTYahoo Webmail.

No indication of how comprehensive the informed consent will be on the Webwise trial invitation.

BT are now blocking my emailed questions with their spam filters, unless I change to a new address. I've asked if they can explain why they are doing that rather than just admitting that they don't want to answer any more questions, so I can forward their reply to the regulator. And I've sent a list of legal questions by snail mail to the BT Retail legal department.

Latest "official" Webwise trial commencement date now only six days away with formal 24 hours notice therefore only five days away (Sunday!!)

BT Beta forums currently throwing up server errors all morning. Some BT customers reporting problems logging into BTYahoo! webmail.

Reading between the lines of Dr Richard Clayton's blog, I suspect he may be getting very annoyed at being misled by Phorm. Aren't we all!?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Right next to the Phorm video I expect!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

it possible these US laws will go by unnoticed unless highlighted so
"...
Three federal laws, three legal hurdles
At least three wiretapping-related federal laws restrict what broadband providers can do:

the Electronic Communications Privacy Act of 1986 (ECPA);
the Communications Act of 1934; and the
Cable TV Privacy Act of 1984.

The cable privacy law is the most restrictive and applies only to cable broadband providers--meaning, thanks to a law written when the Apple Macintosh was new, they're at a competitive disadvantage to AT&T and Verizon.

The cable privacy law is unusually onerous because it requires the "prior written or electronic consent of the subscriber" before any personally identifiable information can be collected. What that means is sending a postcard or e-mail telling customers that they can opt-out (which is what cable providers are doing so far) may not be good enough.
...
"

also, i found this part interesting, it seems that their entire basis for consent is flawed in that to "convincingly show" that consent, nothing beats a confirmation email or better, a signed letter in law.

"...
The 2003 In Re Pharmatrak decision from the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 1st Circuit offers a glimpse of how judges view consent.

The court ruled in a case involving Web tracking "that it makes more sense to place the burden of showing consent on the party seeking the benefit of the exception."

The judges approvingly cited a second case, which said "consent can only be implied when the surrounding circumstances convincingly show that the party knew about and consented to the interception."

Yet another legal obstacle for Web monitoring is the Communications Act, which says companies engaged in "transmitting" communications shall not "divulge" those contents.

"The question is whether or not a third party like this can track usage for things other than for routine maintenance of a network--they are entitled to do that," said Barry Steinhardt, director of the ACLU's Technology and Liberty Program. "But where you're actually tracking the content of what users do, there are serious questions there about the Electronic Communications Privacy Act and the cable laws." ...
"

US law:
the Electronic Communications Privacy Act of 1986 (ECPA);
http://www.usiia.org/legis/ecpa.html

the Communications Act of 1934
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Act_of_1934
http://www.fcc.gov/Reports/1934new.pdf

Cable TV Privacy Act of 1984
much the same as the UK/EU DPA type act but with more bite ;)
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/47...1----000-.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i have just added my comment below to the article

with 80/20 thinking being a consultant to phorm for the impending rollout by BT, virgin media and talk talk of phorms WEBWISE product, and the requirement for the users of this services to make an "informed choice" is there not a conflict of interest here for 80/20 thinking as their client phorm has a direct interest in the recomendations of this working group, and getting them watered down?

80/20 thinking have also yet to release the promised video of the public meeting which happened several weeks ago(that they arranged for phorm i believe) where phorm was to answer its critics, speculation is they dare not release it as it shows phorm (their client) in a bad light

put these two things together and you have to ask if they can be independant and have the interest of the public and not a client at heart

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I can get onto the bt vision forums no problem but any other they have not at all.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

please email the moderator at forum.moderation.team AT bt.com and add your voice to the rest of us complaining about this - been down all day.
(Maybe they are connecting the Webwise equipment up today... ! ):td:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As I posted on btbroadband.support Mark W is well aware of the problems at the BT Beta forums and has passed the problem on to their technical people. I get intermittent server problems there and failure to load the CSS style sheets but it does work, you just have to keep trying a few times... after all I managed to post on it!

---------- Post added at 15:25 ---------- Previous post was at 15:19 ----------

This has been posted this afternoon on the BadPhorm forum:

"I am on the phone to TalkTalk customer services and just had it confirmed that they HAVE implemented Webwise."

see http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugi...topic.php?5947
(posting at 1.49pm)

Not sure if we should believe this or what.... any TalkTalk people on here?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I doubt that very much. I suspect it is a case of the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. If it had been deployed it would have been reported either on the BBC, the Guardian or El Reg.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 15:34 ---------- Previous post was at 15:32 ----------

There should be an article posted later today on a popular news site regarding my dissertation. I will post the link once I have it.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There is posts missing again from the bt webwise thread

---------- Post added at 16:10 ---------- Previous post was at 16:03 ----------

getting ad`s popping up here they getting past my blockers.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Visit a load of ISPs and www.ispreview.co.uk then see if the adverts turn into relevent adverts for ISPs or you start to get special offers for BT

post a few tracerts also to see if they get bounced around use BBC.co.uk

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

just tried to send feedback via the feedback clickly at the bottom of the ad (btw was a full ad like a tv not your still) and cos I put age under 16, they refused to take the feedback due to the age, btw lied about me age to test it, so it`s ok for them to spam the ad too a minor but can`t take feed back from one, think they need to stop now.

---------- Post added at 16:44 ---------- Previous post was at 16:34 ----------

Tracing route to www.l.google.com [66.249.93.104]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 32 ms 100 ms 99 ms api.home [192.168.1.254]
2 27 ms 23 ms 25 ms esr5.sheffield3.broadband.bt.net [217.

3 25 ms 25 ms 25 ms 217.47.73.13
4 26 ms 24 ms 25 ms 217.41.176.17
5 96 ms 207 ms 202 ms 217.41.176.66
6 25 ms 25 ms 24 ms 217.41.176.78
7 25 ms 25 ms 24 ms 217.41.176.46
8 26 ms 25 ms 25 ms 217.47.19.114
9 25 ms 24 ms 26 ms core1-pos4-1.sheffield.ukcore.bt.net [
.181]
10 26 ms 31 ms 30 ms core1-pos8-0.birmingham.ukcore.bt.net
146]
11 33 ms 32 ms 32 ms core3-pos0-8-0-4.ealing.ukcore.bt.net
.253]
12 31 ms 31 ms 31 ms core1-pos10-0-0.redbus.ukcore.bt.net [
254]
13 33 ms 33 ms 33 ms 195.99.125.110
14 41 ms 43 ms 74 ms 72.14.232.149
15 76 ms 43 ms 42 ms 72.14.233.79
16 43 ms 50 ms 51 ms 216.239.47.229
17 43 ms 42 ms * 216.239.47.229
18 42 ms 42 ms 42 ms ug-in-f104.google.com [66.249.93.104]

Trace complete.

Tracing route to www.bbc.net.uk [212.58.253.67]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 54 ms 99 ms 99 ms api.home [192.168.1.254]
2 25 ms 25 ms 26 ms esr5.sheffield3.broadband.bt.net [217.47.73.144]

3 25 ms 26 ms 27 ms 217.47.73.13
4 27 ms 27 ms 25 ms 217.41.176.17
5 26 ms 25 ms 26 ms 217.41.176.66
6 26 ms 24 ms 26 ms 217.41.176.78
7 25 ms 24 ms 25 ms 217.41.176.54
8 27 ms 25 ms 26 ms 217.47.73.107
9 30 ms 29 ms 25 ms 217.32.171.249
10 28 ms 26 ms 27 ms core1-pos15-0.manchester.ukcore.bt.net [62.6.201
.249]
11 32 ms 33 ms 34 ms core1-pos0-9-0-0.ealing.ukcore.bt.net [194.74.65
.121]
12 32 ms 30 ms 31 ms core1-pos5-0-0.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net [194.74.6
5.122]
13 30 ms 32 ms 33 ms 194.74.65.42
14 32 ms 32 ms 34 ms 212.58.238.129
15 33 ms 33 ms 31 ms te12-1.hsw0.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk [212.58.239.222]
16 32 ms 33 ms 32 ms www-vip.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk [212.58.253.67]

Trace complete.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Chasing up some BT Webwise javascript mentioned over on BadPhorm
http://www.webwise.bt.com/includes/c...ise/webwise.js

It seems that the cookies DO contain an ISP identifier.

I then had a look at the video on Webwise.com - it carries the same linking graphic as in the js file above

Interestingly - that vidoe only contains logos from BT and TalkTalk like the rest of the Webwise.com site.

If that is the video that BT are planning to show us to inform us about Webwise then it leaves a lot to be desired in terms of being a comprehensive description of Webwise, to comply with the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Strange you are BT yet I can arrive at those destination in less hops than you I get 12 and 13 hops on an entanet network.


RAS server is the authentication server and I really don't know why you have to go twice to it which one tracert earlier showed but yours hasn't..

217.47.73.13
inetnum: 217.47.30.0 - 217.47.153.255
netname: BT-MIDBAND
descr: RAS Boxes
country: GB
-------------------------
217.41.176.17
inetnum: 217.41.168.0 - 217.41.176.255
netname: BT-MIDBAND
descr: BT-MIDBAND
country: GB
-------------------------
217.41.176.66
inetnum: 217.41.168.0 - 217.41.176.255
netname: BT-MIDBAND
descr: BT-MIDBAND
country: GB
-----------------------
217.41.176.78
netname: BT-MIDBAND
descr: BT-MIDBAND
country: GB
------------------------
217.41.176.46
netname: BT-MIDBAND
descr: BT-MIDBAND
country: GB
------------------------
217.47.19.114
netname: BT-MIDBAND
descr: BT-MIDBAND
country: GB

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I just tested mine out of curiosity on my O2 (non LLU) account using the using the same destinations and I got 11 & 8 respectively.

Colin

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Glad you've already commented on the innacuracies there, Popper. Is never pleasing when someone is making up statements and also plucking revenue figures out of their rear end. Lies do not help a cause.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

so any ideas why i am bouncing around inside bt like

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've had some new replies from BT - paraphrasing, here goes :

It's use of the robots.txt is to determine whether or not the page should be deemed to be in the "public domain"
But then it explains that it doesn't crawl like a bot, but uses the information in robots.txt to decide whether or not the page contents should be analyzed.
It then goes on to explain that it is the responsibility of the broadband subscriber to explain to casual users of their systems (family, friends, etc) that Webwise is turned on - they liken it to security settings.

All in all with another couple of bits they have really made me quite angry again.

I am trying to see how robots.txt can stop access to password protected pages, but I didn't ask that and I don't have a reference to a quote about that - has anyone got one knocking around?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I bet the "come and join us" screen won't carry that health warning.:mad:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well if you have some stale sessions it can happen have you tried switching off router for an 30mins then reconnecting to clear any stale sessions other wise it is something BT are doing bouncing ppl around additional servers so when webwise goes live you are already used to extra hops to the destination.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Finally got a reply from BT about my blocked emails - blocked by the spam filters - they say they have "no idea" why they were blocked.

The reply contained a denial that trials were starting on 26th May so I have pointed out the press release that stated that they were starting within 28 days of 29th April.
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/communicatio...9408146,00.htm

It was also pointed out to me that not everyone has my "voracious appetite for detail" - which I found quite amusing. I suppose they are rather relying on that, to sneak Webwise past a snoozing public? Certainly there appear to be plenty of people within the decision making process at BT with a very poor grasp of detail.

I've pointed out that Phorm seem to have a poor eye for detail too - now that they have revised their advice to Richard Clayton about how the system works.

I'd post this on BT Beta forums but they are still playing up. Must be a server with a poor appetite for detail.

---------- Post added at 19:14 ---------- Previous post was at 19:11 ----------

I have no explanation of HOW BT Retail claim to do this, but I do know that they claim they won't be going past password logins. Haven't time to look it up but you may find it on the Webwise FAQ.

It's when you ask "HOW" that they clam up. And quite often it means that when you really look at what they have said, it doesn't quite say what they hope you think it said. They are very good at being vague.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just come across this
http://www.lancs.ac.uk/iss/rules/cmisuse.htm

I particularly like the inference from Example 1
In my head the webwise system is using another person's id to get the data from my password protected systems - in breach of the computer misuse act?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.p2pnet.net/story/15980

There you go.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 19:24 ---------- Previous post was at 19:22 ----------

You in Lancaster too? Maybe we could get together after next week (when I finish my degree) for coffee and a chat if you like?

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Unfortunately, not been there for many years. I sometimes stop in again if I'm in the area, but it's been more years than I care to remember since I was at Uni there.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Looks good Alexander, the bibliography alone will keep me busy for hours.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I don't think this has been mentioned on here yet (thanks to madslug on BadPhorm forums for spotting it):

Change to webwise FAQ http://www.webwise.com/how-it-works/faq.html

"What about FIPR's analysis of the legality and RIPA?

We don't agree with FIPR's analysis. And its description of the Phorm system is inaccurate. Our technology complies with the Data Protection Act, RIPA and other applicable UK laws. We've sought our own legal opinions as well as consulted widely with experts such as Ernst & Young, 80/20 Thinking, the Home Office, Ofcom and the Information Commissioner's Office (ICO). We discussed our system with the ICO prior to launching it and continue to be in dialogue with the organisation."

I find it rich that they accuse FIPR of inaccurately describing the phorm system, in the light of phorms own inaccurate description of the system to Richard Clayton. I think it is an indication of how BT will try to discredit opponents of phorm/webwise.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The entire comment is completely untenable given the fact that they had the opportunity to correct any errors (and reportedly did so) before Dr Clayton published the analysis. The published document was agreed to be accurate by Phorm themselves.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I suppose FIPR can always say that they had to rely on Clayton 1.0, and ICO 1.0 whereas we are now on Clayton 1.3 and ICO 1.3. Clayton 1.3 of course had to be issued because Phorm had a sudden rush of blood to the head and remembered there were more browser redirects than they had originally told Dr Clayton about in the first version.

---------- Post added at 21:39 ---------- Previous post was at 21:08 ----------

I've now found the relevant bit of an email from BT about this: (from Director, Value Added Services)

Now let me try to allay your concerns as to what will happen with the private, password protected areas of your own website……

First of all let me say that we completely understand the potential concerns of some website owners, who have sensitive/private/password protected websites or areas on their website, and are taking the necessary steps to ensure that password protected sites are excluded from this service and no information will be scanned from these pages. We are also excluding a range of more sensitive categories for example medical, religious and gambling websites. We are also taking steps to ensure that those websites that do not want search engines to 'crawl' them (by the use of robots.txt) will also be excluded from the Webwise service.

And here is the extensive explanation from the BT Webwise FAQ
http://webwise.bt.com/webwise/help.h...14,15,16,17,18

Actuallly it's so extensive, it's worth quoting in full
"BT Webwise does not scan password-protected content so it is ignored."

Richard Clayton Mark 3 (after Phorm phessed up to misleading him)
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rnc1/080518-phorm.pdf
refers to this briefly in para 37, p5

---------- Post added at 21:43 ---------- Previous post was at 21:39 ----------

Did you mean Clayton or Bohm here Alexander?

the problem is that the Phorm goalposts are sliding sideways at the moment, a bit like the ad boards go up and down on the side of the pitch. As Dr Clayton is finding - having to constantly revise his analysis because Phorm keep "remembering" things they forgot to tell him earlier.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Dr Clayton. It was his technical paper which originally alleged the technology was illegal iirc, which is what the webwise citation is referring to.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media and BT both part of the ISPA
 

That could get quite expensive for BT.

OTELO is an OFCOM approved Alternative Dispute Resolution (arbitration) service.

OfCom require communication providers to be a member of either OTELO or CISAS. Customers can complain to an ISP's ADR once their provider's internal complaint procedure has been exhausted (a deadlock letter is usually required, or else proof that the complaint has not been resolved within three months). The ADR's decision is binding on the ISP.

It is free for the complainant as the ISP picks up OTELO's case fees (was £325 per case in 2005 - http://www.otelo.org.uk/downloads/Cu...Survey2005.pdf )

http://www.otelo.org.uk/pages/4howtocomplain.php

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks for that - I'll raise the question in my next exchange.

Just had a thought - does anyone have details of the IP ranges for the affected ISPs (or the default dynamic names given) in order to warn their victims?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Pete at Dephormation.org.uk

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Bit old, but does this sort of thing help to explain a man in the middle attack to joe public?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...staurants.html

Especially when lots of big name companies tell you it's perfectly safe. In fact, an improvement on what you had before, and nothing can go wrong. Trust us.

There are probably better articles to quote out there somewhere.

edit : (sorry, ISP in the middle, with a dodgy mate, who employs dodgy people, from dodgy countries)

edit again: Of course, if your chip and pin has been nicked, eventually the problem will go away when you change your bank account number and card etc. You will have to do all that and move house if phorm goes wrong. And even then they will have your name, DoB, NI number etc..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I’ve just seen Procera Networks’ advert for universal end-to-end encryption!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just seen the BT ad on the box. Looks like the bloke's about to cheat on his missus.:shocked:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

just looking at the first line of my yahoo cookie from BT

Y
v=1&n=fdv4pcpalqqrg&l=6h4o2em@1j8dj4hd4j.2ec/o&p=m21vvuk013000000&iz=MEXX5DT&r=ia&lg=en-GB&intl=uk
yahoo.com/

notice the bit in red

MY POSTCODE!!!!!! (x'ed out 2 chars for privacy)

easy for phorm to get my post code and match it to MY unique random number ID as when you logon to parental controls it will see the cookie go by along with its own

i also notice the reference to strings of numbers longer than 3 digits has gone from the webwise faq page

also notice http://routeplanner.rac.co.uk/showmulti.php?saddress=meXX%205dt&daddress=b69%206lt&vaddress1=&vaddress2=&vaddress 3=&vaddress4=&vaddress5=&rtype=fast&preferences=3& trafficconditions=3&maptype=JAVA&nextgengeo=1

can pick up post code from travel sites when it passes data from one page to the next (my postcode above in red x'ed again),

so no identifiable data???? pull the other one