Re: Brexit
 

:LOL: :LOL:

Re: Brexit
 

I'm sick to the back teeth with it all, I want to leave with no deal, We have a PM that is just dragging out something she wants and 48% of a losing side.

Re: Brexit
 

Thank you for supplying your source.

Re: Brexit
 

Well, she's currently speaking to Parliament and the main points announced at this moment in time are:

- The fee payable by EU citizens to stay in the UK is to be abolished.

- Workers rights will not be eroded.

- She will hold more talks with the DUP Re: The backstop.

- She will never reopen the Belfast agreement.

- She will be more flexible & inclusive.

Re: Brexit
 

She has said nothing new that's of significant importance whatsoever.

Re: Brexit
 

Good as EU citizens that have contributed to the UK economy should have been exempted from any charge to start with.

Re: Brexit
 

She doesn't need to, she just needs to keep talking for another 2 months :D

Re: Brexit
 

Nothing new to say that's why lol,We leave March 29th.

Just a matter of plodding along until then with all the bla bla bla bla and nice lunches and drinkies for the dudes doing the business side of things :)

---------- Post added at 16:37 ---------- Previous post was at 16:36 ----------


LOL :D:D

Re: Brexit
 

Let's just try to have a brief moment of normality and clarity. No deal, quite simply, will not happen. She's playing poker against opponents who have shown themselves to be far more skilled and more determined than herself. She'll blink.

If she secures a deal, It will be a very soft brexit, in which case, whats the point ? Leavers won't be happy, remainers won't be happy

---------- Post added at 16:43 ---------- Previous post was at 16:40 ----------


Ok, let's play your game... What do you think will happen to the conservative party if we left the EU on a no deal basis?

---------- Post added at 16:46 ---------- Previous post was at 16:43 ----------

Have they? I thought they just came over here took our jobs, caused increasing pressures onto the NHS. and were otherwise just generally up too nefarious activities.

Re: Brexit
 

As long as the Jew hater is at the helm of Labour then the answer to your question is. 'Nothing' . He keeps Labour out the picture ,Simples.

Re: Brexit
 

Some do (and also put pressure on housing, education etc), which is why the end of compulsory free movement is so important. There will be nothing to stop us accepting immigrants in the future if it can be demonstrated that this will be of some benefit to the UK.

Re: Brexit
 

If you believe in conspiracies it could be argued that JC is actually a Torie that's been planted there to make sure they never become a threat.He did go to a private school after all and never came from a working class background ;)

Re: Brexit
 

A bit of sulking on Saturday and Sunday then back to feathering their own self interest on monday , sourbelly says she would resign we'll have to keep our fingers crossed on that.

Re: Brexit
 

Ok, let's play the scenario out further.

How long do you think Corbyn would remain as leader IF a no deal exit occurred?

Personally, I think he would be gone sharpish. Let's say Labour manage to bring David Milliband back in (or someone of his ilk)


The Tories would be out of power for the next > 20 years

All political parties primary concern is to be the governing party for as long as possible.

---------- Post added at 16:57 ---------- Previous post was at 16:55 ----------

Teresa May just confirms that even in the event of No Deal we would still have to legally pay monies to the EU.

Reese-Mogg probably now probably turned Crimson as his champagne is repeating on him

---------- Post added at 17:05 ---------- Previous post was at 16:57 ----------

Very short term viewpoint but probably not wrong ;)

---------- Post added at 17:35 ---------- Previous post was at 17:05 ----------


If you would like to provide the NET figures to show that overall that EEA EEA : OMS EEA : NMS migration is of negative fiscal value.


Also, if you can provide the NET figures for Native and Non-EEA

I'll wait...

Re: Brexit
 

This information has already been provided further back in the thread. The figures show that we generally make a profit out of having immigrants here, but if we limit ourselves to a better quality of them, this profit could be increased. I, however, don't accept these figures as they simply look at what they take out and what they put in.

The bigger picture is that even if they come here and work, pay taxes and don't claim any benefits, they could have taken a job that an existing person living here could have done. Eventually, if not immediately, this means that a person who would have found employment will remain on benefits. When this is taken into consideration, the so called profit is probably extinguished.

Other matters include the presence of immigrants lowering wages (they will often work for less because our minimum wage is a fortune to them). They also put pressure on doctors, schools etc. With regards to housing, their presence leads to market forces pushing up house prices and rent inflation and, consequently, homelessness and inadequate housing.

Limiting immigration to areas such as skill shortage areas, hard to fill posts etc with decent people who have demonstrated that they can conduct themselves in an acceptable manner will go a long way towards the resentment that more and more people are having towards immigrants to the UK. I am of the opinion that this is the reason most people voted to leave the EU (above sovereignty and everything else).Even the most did hard professional anti racists that I know broadly agree with this. One (a left wing old hippie) recently said to me that he didnt like the way that his community was being changed by the sheer number of newcomers.

An Asian taxi driver once said to me that "they' were sick of the poles coming in as they were stealing their fares and that there wouldn't be any jobs for Asian people before long". I just stayed silent and had a wry smile to myself.

Re: Brexit
 

Absolute twaddle

Re: Brexit
 

Nonsense.

Re: Brexit
 

So glad you've come around ;)

Re: Brexit
 

You clearly aren't interested in having a serious adult debate about the subject as I initially believed, so let's leave it there as this is a non productive use of our time.

Re: Brexit
 

Ah back to the old xenophobia.

Re: Brexit
 

And back to the old well worn cliches. IMO most people in the UK (of all types of races) are, to various extents, unhappy with the quality and quantity of immigrants for various reasons.

Thankfully, we've moved on since concerns about this were able to be silenced by accusations of racism, xenophobia et al.

Re: Brexit
 

I actually quite like the xenophobic arguments for Brexit. At least they’re honest about not liking foreigners, despite the economic fact that EU migrants are net contributors to society. Indeed, if any party wanted to they could have operated greater controls on both EU and non-EU migration but didn’t.

The “great trade deals” arguments are generally dishonest, but at least the xenophobes generally front up about their ignorance. It’s quite refreshing in a way.

Re: Brexit
 

That is usually the thinking by those who can't see further then their nose.

---------- Post added at 19:11 ---------- Previous post was at 19:10 ----------

Most of them are younger and fitter and as such don't really use the NHS as they are in good health

---------- Post added at 19:13 ---------- Previous post was at 19:11 ----------

Nothing like blaming good old Johnny Foreigner for all our country's great ills.

Re: Brexit
 

Sounds like a foreign word;)

Re: Brexit
 

Well, considering that English has it’s roots in ancient German, with later additions from Norman (a variant of French), Latin, Greek, that’s not really surprising... ;)

Re: Brexit
 

The fact that we readily include foreign words and phrases into our culture is yet another example of the fact we are anything but xenophobic.

Re: Brexit
 

Well she’s ruled out a 2nd referendum!

Re: Brexit
 

A whole bunch of amendments have been put today for next week's vote. I can't be bothered to post them other than to say it's gonna be a long afternoon next week. It seems the Remainers are basically pushing each option to see which stands the most chance of success before falling in behind it assuming May's own deal fails again.

Re: Brexit
 

Money isn't the only thing that people consider when forming their views on immigration. Not all are net contributors to the coffers anyway and, as I said before, the data on this doesn't paint the full picture.

I don't recall anybody saying that they "didn't like foreigners", that would be a very juvenile way of looking at it. I've employed one or two myself.

Re: Brexit
 

It’s not about money for some, you’re right.

It’s essentially racism. The “full picture” as you put it simply the fact they are foreign.

Not everyone born in this country is a net contributor, so that’s a red herring. Impacts on poverty, housing or the NHS are sideshows to the reality that austerity is cutting public services as that’s Conservative ideology.

Re: Brexit
 

Agreed, let me know when you’re prepared to accept the facts as preeented to you

---------- Post added at 21:15 ---------- Previous post was at 21:13 ----------

Did she ? Explicitly ? I thought the words used were ‘I believe’ ?

Re: Brexit
 

Well done, Richard.

---------- Post added at 21:21 ---------- Previous post was at 21:17 ----------

The fact that we readily used the words ‘Blitz’ and ‘Gestapo’ during WW2 is yet another example of the fact we were anything but enemies to the Nazis...

Re: Brexit
 

The IMF thinks the U.K’s economy will grow faster than Germany and Italy over the next two years (and be on a par with France). Joint 3rd in the G7 after the USA and Canada. #despitebrexit. ;)

https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/...com-TW-WEO0119

Re: Brexit
 

Two reasons why I doubt a no-deal:
1. https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...irish-backstop
2. https://www.ft.com/content/f3f00f8e-...7-97e4dbd3580d

Re: Brexit
 

So Plan B is Plan A again ! :D.

Must be a policy of ' it'll sort itself out somehow.... '.

Re: Brexit
 

Although they do make clear there is a lot of uncertainty but it assumes we reach a deal on Brexit and enter the transition period (i.e for the next two years we'll still be operating under the single market).

Re: Brexit
 

So that projection is based on our still following EU rules, making contributions and accepting freedom of movement. Sounds like BINO to me. ;)
Logical conclusion being that if we keep doing all the above we will enjoy good growth. ;)

Re: Brexit
 

The fact that not everyone born here isn't a net contributor isn't relevant with regards to immigrants coming here and doing the same thing!

I think the main resentment is that people see some immigrants as coming here and taking away resources; by definition they will be foreign, but that isn't the problem, it's them moving over here that is.

I think that UKIP & Leave gained a lot of votes due to this. These voters aren't the types that would ever consider voting for the BNP etc as they don't consider themselves as racist, but have had enough of unfettered immigration.

Your last point has some merit as both have contributed to overstretching public services.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

It’s exactly the same. That’s the way taxation and public spending work.

Which isn’t evidence based.

I agree racism and xenophobia get out the vote for UKIP and Vote Leave. I also agree many racists lack the self awareness to realise they are racist.

“I’m not a racist, but...”, as they say.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

We largely do though. The differences between British and most European cultures are quite superficial. Mostly similar values, shared history and a Judeo-Christian background. You don't have huge cultural disconnects if you're in Europe, talking to European people, eating European food or so on.

The differences people usually cite are small and involve stereotypes. I.E Germans are more logical or Southern Europeans more laid back.

If you're somebody coming from Asia the difference between Asian culture and European culture would be more pronounced than the different between British and European culture. They would lump us in with the continent quite easily.

Re: Brexit
 

She playing a page out of the EU’s playbook.

Re: Brexit
 

How so? Looks to me like Groundhog May, as some of the papers are terming it.

Re: Brexit
 

If you were half decent at Chess it would be apparent what she was doing ;)

Re: Brexit
 

JC takes another step, reluctantly kicking and screaming, towards a second referendum:

Labour calls for vote in Commons on holding second referendum

He still has wiggle room but he is being slowly and grudgingly pushed toward this position.

Re: Brexit
 

Latest ICM opinion poll:

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...8&d=1548154688

Attachment 27708

Re: Brexit
 

Are you saying that foreign words and phrase haven't been incorporated into British culture. As they are foreign, it can hardly be classed as included in the English language. The French constantly complain about English words being included in their culture/language.




,

---------- Post added at 11:20 ---------- Previous post was at 11:14 ----------

So would this 2nd vote be a "meaningful" one, or would that depend on the outcome?:mad:


As the recent Commons vote demonstrated, it's easy to have a nonsense question that both sides disagree with, thereby distorting the outcome of the vote. There were those on the remain side and those on the leave side that voted against the proposals.

Re: Brexit
 

Would that be the same poll where 26% thought that ‘no deal’ meant staying in the EU?

---------- Post added at 11:29 ---------- Previous post was at 11:26 ----------

Plan B is TM’s version of the British abroad - say Plan A again but slower and louder, with lots of hand gestures...

Re: Brexit
 

Sounds like 26% are a bit thick.

Re: Brexit
 

Agreed

Re: Brexit
 

:LOL:

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

I'm drawing the distinction between language and culture. They are not the same.




---------- Post added at 13:47 ---------- Previous post was at 13:36 ----------

Instead of "largely" I'd use the term "superficially".

I agree with the point you make about Judeo-Christian background (which I'd have to call culture!). The uniting factor there is the Ten Commandments which then falls through into law.

Talking about law, the bulk of the European countries work off a Codex (based on the principles of Roman Law), which essentially tells you what you are allowed to do and anything else may be an offence; not quite as severe as I've put it but that's how Roman Law works. The EU behaves in strict accordance with Codex principles. British civil law is more around your obligations and what you are not allowed to do and is interpreted buy the Courts using the principle of precedent where possible and by reference to Parliament's intentions otherwise. These factors bear on people throughout their lives and thus result in cultural differences. We look alike but don't think alike.

The differences of culture are most easily seen in the degree of formality you see in, e.g. France & Germany, Eastern Europe. That stems in part from the rigid rules of grammar and word gender. Whereas English (and indeed Dutch) has significantly less of that, which feeds through into behaviour.

Our sense of humour is radically different from that in France and Germany (the Dutch and Scandinavians or more aligned our way as, incidentally, are the Polish).

A wonderful sub-topic.

Re: Brexit
 

Regardless of what the position is with regards to the net contribution or otherwise of people living here, we do not want to be taking in any immigrants that do not contribute to the UK financially or otherwise. We are not and cannot ever be an international social security system.

The evidence which you seek is plainly human nature. As human beings we are tribal and territorial animals. Even the less intelligent creatures in the animal kingdom tend to only accept newcomers to their group on the proviso that there are no shortages of things like space, food, water etc.

To unilaterally describe UKIP supporters and those who voted leave as xenophobic and racist is an over simplification to the point of being offensive.

Re: Brexit
 

and there in a flash, no deal is pretty much confirmed as dead. and the last weapon May had is gone.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...er-eu-confirms

Re: Brexit
 

The workforce won't live very long if they start installing fences etc.

Re: Brexit
 

and it would break the good Friday agreement a legally biding treaty

Re: Brexit
 

Exactly this (it's purposely designed to stop people airing their views under threat of being labelled a 'racist' and was successful for a number of years) or it is various forms of virtue signalling (they often get into this habit during their days at uni and one or two never grow out of it after entering the real world).

Listening to two of them trying to out trump each other about who is the more racist/anti racist between them is very tedious. I remember hearing one say that he'd got himself into "a prickly situation" and was immediately condemned as racist! This condemnation, of course, has to be done as loudly as possible in from of the max number of people to achieve the desired effect of the perpetrator.

Another person of a similar ilk thought it appropriate to walk around his local railway station demanding to know why none of the black staff were driving the trains, only white men. He completely ignored the fact that none of the drivers were women, but anti sexism in those days paid out less in PC brownie points.

Meanwhile, black people just got on with it in the face of actual racism.

---------- Post added at 14:36 ---------- Previous post was at 14:33 ----------

If this happens, I hope to God that this doesn't start up the troubles In Ireland again. Similarly, if we leave without a deal I suspect that Scotland may decide to try to become independent and rejoin the EU.

Re: Brexit
 

there be a very high chance it would sadly and one of big reasons I have always argued we need to leave with a deal a no deal brexit is worse of all worlds

Re: Brexit
 

There would have to be a wall, a backstop in case the wall falls down and a multi billion £ leaving the UK fee.

Re: Brexit
 

It won't happen, the EU have given May enough rope to hang herself and she has. She's now backed into a corner with only two ways too go. Still, those who wanted restrictions on freedom of movement have got their wish....

Re: Brexit
 

You really think the EU would pay all that money to build and manage a hard border?

or are you suggesting the UK does it?

Re: Brexit
 

Not that it will happen, but IF then I'd suspect to see both sides paying a sum

Re: Brexit
 

There’s no evidence we are an international social security system. It’s simply a myth, and ignoring the reality that immigrants are less likely to be reliant on benefits than our own population. I dont for a minute believe people travel across the continent for a life of luxury on Universal Credit.

I like the comparison of racists and xenophobes to animals though, as they clearly don’t demonstrate the intelligence that humans are capable of.

Re: Brexit
 

or they didn't really know what they were voting for ...

Re: Brexit
 

Living on Universal Credit must be a hard existence, but to many immigrants this is a fortune compared to where they come from.

There is multiple evidence that people come here to take advantage of our welfare state.
As an example, this is why the Government are wanting to introduce enhanced ID checks for NHS users.

Re: Brexit
 

https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...q-to-singapore Luckily for Dyson, this is in place...

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-s...ee-trade-deal/

Re: Brexit
 

Well obviously he is going to move to a place with an EU trade deal....:rolleyes:

Re: Brexit
 

I thought it was an opinion poll not a vote.

Re: Brexit
 

Nothing like brazen Brexit hypocrisy especially as he was claiming to speak for the thousands of British businesses that are hoping to manufacture in the UK after Brexit.:rolleyes::td:

Re: Brexit
 

another brexiteer hypocrite im be fine sod rest of the people

Re: Brexit
 

It's just business, nothing more. Move manufacturing to a country with low wages & long hours, build it cheap knowing the 'name' will sell it dear ;)



edit: in fact it's a little like Range Rover & Slovakia :D

Re: Brexit
 

how many job loses you happy to accept

Re: Brexit
 

Sorry Dave, I don't work for Dyson, and don't want to own one either . . . same as Range Rover :p:

Re: Brexit
 

avoided question I see

Re: Brexit
 

Of course it's business. It's just that one of the biggest business supporters of Brexit and how it will help British business is moving his British business out of Britain. It may not be because of the EU, although at the present rate he'll have better access to that market than he would here, but it's hardly a big confidence vote in this new dawn for British manufacturing he advocated for.

Re: Brexit
 

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

Re: Brexit
 

There is nowhere in the European Union where the cost of living is so low that Universal Credit can be considered a “fortune”; you’re also ignoring the fact they have to live on it HERE.

There’s little to no evidence of any of what you suggest and even where such little instances do happen removing EU migration and EU trade is somewhat using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

There’s no evidence the NHS will be better off when it has to take the time and effort to train staff rather than import them.

Re: Brexit
 

A question you should really be asking yourself, you're the one that wants to stay in the EU.


. . . anyway, the topics are getting silly again, more going around in circles

Re: Brexit
 

There was a TV programme where a Czech Roma couple had arrived in Rotherham with twenty-two of their children and grandchildren. Only one of them had a job. So they, along with an estimated 6,000 other Czech Roma just in Rotherham, had to be housed, funded with benefits etc. The fallacy is that enough of the 3m EU residents actually contribute. Especially if you factor in an upfront cost of building the houses to house them in the first place.

So is the stock in all the Eastern European shops produced in the UK? Or is it shipped in from Eastern Europe.

Re: Brexit
 

Brexit touches on us all whether one likes it or not and as such its a subject that has a a very expansive scope don't you agree?.

Re: Brexit
 

Yes it does, I agree . . . but when a 'certain' named businessman gets mentioned regularly, yet other businesses that 'move abroad' are never mentioned, it gets rather monotonous and silly ;)


edit:
Dyson launched a $360 million plant in Tuas, Singapore in 2013, which can produce 4 million digital motors a year

The EU began negotiations with Singapore in March 2010

remind me again, in which year was the Brexit referendum?

Re: Brexit
 

leaving the EU is gonna cost us jobs not staying so it question leavers need to answer

Re: Brexit
 

Many people believe being in the EU has cost us jobs, who's right, who's wrong?

And as posted above, Dyson moving production to Singapore (and other countries) was done years before Brexit was a true proposition, so was therefore simply a business costs move, nothing else

Re: Brexit
 

Dyson's getting a bit of a hard time. He warned us many years ago that if we didn't join the Euro then he would expand overseas instead. We can't say we weren't told, though I would prefer to lose Dyson than gain the Euro. ;)
https://www.theguardian.com/business...erverbusiness4

Re: Brexit
 

Good post Andrew, the link is to an article from Sun 5 Nov 2000 showing that he thought the EURO would be beneficial to his (and other) businesses.

The man stood by his convictions and moved his business, fair play.

Re: Brexit
 

100% agree

Re: Brexit
 

Reality is finally dawning in Dublin, it seems. In the event of No Deal, it’s not the British erecting a border they have to worry about, it’s that their EU obermeisters will instruct the Irish to do it.

The way is now obvious. The obstructionists in our Parliament need to lay off and allow the government to face the EU down. The Backstop was a serious strategic error on the EU’s part, borne out of their obsession with ideological purity, and if they come under sufficient pressure they will drop it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46961982

Re: Brexit
 

While I'm still here, here's 2 links that some may find interesting ;)

from 2016 https://www.cer.eu/insights/eu-army-...ill-not-happen

from 2019 https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2019/...B0Ojl6_kSZm9gY

Re: Brexit
 

To somewhere OUTSIDE the Eurozone. So how does that work?

Re: Brexit
 

If I check the Daily Mail there's plenty of examples of benefit scroungers from all backgrounds, so a single example isn't necessarily representative of society as a whole.

32.53 million people in work in this country contribute to millions of benefit claimants on Jobseekers, ESA, Universal Credit and PIP. That's the way the system works.

I don't shop in Eastern European shops - I can't comment on the content. It's quite irrelevant though. Some items will attract VAT, the shopkeeper will pay income tax, employ other people (again, paying tax and national insurance) -all of which are positives. Do you buy entirely British produce? Drive a British manufactured car? Or like everyone else do you buy whatever is cheapest?

Re: Brexit
 

Because production costs were cheaper than staying here, obviously

Re: Brexit
 

there was no way it happen with UK in the EU as would been vetoed now it got more chance since we leaving but other members could use veto but we will see

Re: Brexit
 

6,000 from one group living in one town is not an isolated example. There are other groups, from other countries, in other towns and cities. There has been plenty of other examples in the media.




Where has the money that is spent in the shops come from? Public borrowing. Where do the profits end up, ie which country?


From 2011.

Re: Brexit
 

There are plenty of EU countries whose welfare state is either inferior or non existent compared to ours with plenty of evidence that this attracts both EU and non EU immigrants alike. To these people, UC is indeed a fortune as is the minimum wage. Because of our different standards of living, prices will also appear to be correspondingly higher too (especially for accommodation); this is mitigated by workers sleeping rough, living in tents, severely overcrowding houses etc.

I haven't suggested removing EU immigration, I haven't mentioned the separate issue of EU trade, nor the issue of immigrants working in the NHS- I was referring to the users of it.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

I remember seeing this programme and talking about it the day afterwards. One elderly customer remarked that she'd overheard an immigrant on his mobile phone saying "you come to England, they pay you to have children". I remember remarking that, however unpalatable his comments were, he was telling the truth.

Presumably this is why, in most cases, people can now only claim for a maximum of two children and why the NASS system for calculating money given to asylum seekers has been reformed.

Because we aren't allowed to treat EU citizens any differently to our own population, this legislation to counter this greedy abuse of our generosity also affects those who took no part in it too.

There's a similar issue with the EHIC cards. If someone from Spain comes here, they automatically enjoy all the benefits of our NHS. When I visit Spain, however, I have to register as a temporary visitor, which often means wasting my first day hanging around a Government office. They don't rush and, even then, the cover isn't equivalent to our NHS as there are often charges to pay.

Re: Brexit
 

That mainly includes in-work benefits and doesn't include Eastern European countries, and is therefore not relevant.
The problems started when EU countries not included in that report, joined the EU or were allowed to come here.

Re: Brexit
 

This data is three years old, but nevertheless is still interesting to look at. I'm surprised that the EU countries expecting us to bail them out after we ourselves have had to endure nearly a decade of austerity.

Overall, the UK is still a magnet, otherwise why would both EU and non EU immigrants take such desperate measures to get here? Asylum seekers in particular risk their lives and pass through safe places prior to getting to the UK.

The UK used to have a similar system as Denmark for cushioning the effects of unemployment, with claimants being paid an 'Earnings Related Supplement' during the initial period of their claim. The Thatcher Government abolished this in 1982.

---------- Post added at 19:09 ---------- Previous post was at 19:05 ----------

Totally agree. The main problems appear to have started when the poorer Eastern European countries were allowed to join.

If a new law was introduced that allowed anyone in a particular street to live in any of the houses (and they could not lawfully be refused access) it's obviously going to be a case of the poorer residents moving into the more affluent homes!