Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

just one step away from the (phorm/NebuAd)DPI kit perhaps...

OC it's unlikely anyone would be advertising any of those DPI 0day POC.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05/15/router_rootkit/
Rootkits on routers threat to be demoed

Networks own3d

By John Leyden → More by this author
Rate this story https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/05/4.pnghttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/05/4.pnghttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/05/4.pnghttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/05/4.pnghttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/05/4.pnghttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/05/4.pnghttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/05/4.pnghttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/05/4.pnghttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/05/4.pnghttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/05/4.pnghttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/05/5.png
Published Thursday 15th May 2008 22:42 GMT

Security researchers have devised a rootkit capable of covertly monitoring and controlling Cisco routers.

Sebastian Muniz, of Core Security, plans to demo Cisco IOS rootkit software he developed during a presentation at the EuSecWest conference in London on 22 May.
...
"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Fun for Friday...

A team of UK Technologists have solved the ISP spyware problem for content owners with a new 'opt in' standard...

www.parasitestxt.org


.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Life is warming up on BT forums.

My emails to BT are dying in the spam filtering system but not if I change the From address - so I've got about 10 more opportunities to email them then I run out!

The direction over on BT Beta is now to target the legal department of BT as it seems they may have been left out of the loop till recently.

I've posted a list of things to write to them about over on Beta Forums and there is a post there with further details.

Chief Counsel Commercial Law (Consumer), BT Retail, BT Centre, pp B8D, 81 Newgate Street, London, EC1A 7AJ

Non BT customers who have an interest as website owners can also write in.

Remember that the latest "best before" BT trial date is 26th May with 24 hours notice so write in asap - I think we can delay it again.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Guys

Something is playing on my mind. look at this quote

Is this not the the thing spouted by Kent by phorm. Maybe i have read to much and have a false memory.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Excuse me if this has already been posted: http://www.antiphorm.com/page_software.htm

"AntiPhormLite is a unique application that intelligently self surfs the internet and generates natural surfing information to confuse anyone who is spying or tracking your internet activity"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've finally had a reply from my bank regarding the new banking code, and I expressed my concerns over Phorm and it's possible impact on online banking activity with them.

They have stated that providing that I've not given my security details to anyone, and I've used reasonable care that they guarantee they will refund any loss from an account.

This paragraph did cause me a little concern though

I find this a little unsettling, why can't they discuss it with me? If someone was cleaned out as a result of hackers exploiting the Phorm system, would the banks use this as a get out clause to refund peoples loss?

I'm not happy with this reply, and I'm going to write back. I'll keep you all posted.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Be wary of that site. Whilst it may have good intention it looks suspicious as does the way it was announced over at badphorm:

http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugi...pic.php?5687.0

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Letter to legal team at BT now completed. If you want to see a copy, then PM me for a url to a pdf copy.

---------- Post added at 10:47 ---------- Previous post was at 10:41 ----------

Ask your bank if they have any commercial link to OIX.net. And press them a bit harder with a specific question asking who is legally liable if your use of Webwise exposes you to bank fraud. Phorm, your ISP, the bank or you? PUSH!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Please, this is a very very bad idea.

The *only* situation in which this is ever justified is the point where you have no alternative.

Here is a simpler, more effective solution, with no legality problems.

Switch to a Phorm Free ISP.

Don't hack the ISP. Don't hack Phorm.
Don't ruin the network for other users.
Don't abuse innocent web sites.

Choose freedom.

Easy Instructions here.


Pete

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Kent's rather dismissive and patronising claim that users were not technically savvy enough to switch on anti phishing in internet explorer has been addressed in MS roll out of XP SP3.

After the installation of the SP, IE7 has a fully functioning and by default switched on anti phishing.

There are two sides to an argument and if according to Kent the masses are too thick to turn on anti-phishing they by default will be too thick to turn it off.

By the time Phorm is ready for roll out, the only half way redeeming feature will have long since been made redundant by Microsoft.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

From what we have been told, it seems you only "benefit" from Phorm's anti-phishing protection if you opt-in to being spied on, BUT I think Phorm itself suggested blocking webwise.net cookies if you wanted to permanently opt-out, and I think it was reported that this would be detected by their system's loop detection which would then "blacklist" your IP address for 30 minutes.

Now that would suggest to me that if you have more than one PC using your connection and webwise.net cookies were blocked by any of the users, then none would be protected while they were browsing. So Phorm Phishing protection would give the others nothing but a false sense of security.

I also wonder what happens if the IP address your ISP allocates to you when you connect had just been released by a person who blocks webwise.net cookies, disconnecting. Unless they've put some measure in place to prevent it this could result in you not being protected by Phorm's anti-phishing protection for up to 30 minutes.

If either of these scenarios could result in someone who was opted-in not being protected, then my view is Phorm's anti-phishing is not fit for the purpose and they should not advertise nor claim their service provides it. If users are told by opting-in their ISP will provide them with anti-phishing protection, they might well turn their existing (effective) anti-phishing protection off.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A number of us still use Internet Explorer v6 for one or more resins, I still use Internet Explorer v6 for it's ease of use plus it's ftp capability watt I use weekly, Internet Explorer v7 is not as easy to use as Internet Explorer v6 & as I said Internet Explorer v7 doesn't have ftp capability, I here you thinking why don't you use a ftp client, the simple answer is because I haven't found one that is easy to use with me ben Dyslexic! ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Investors Chronicle

Now it has been published I can tell you all that the article concludes with a Sell Order on the grounds that Phorm Stock is too high risk.

I have not seen the article yet, but I knew this several days ago. If anyone has managed to read it yet please post a few little tidbits, I am still waiting for details.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This should help the share price no end.;)

I notice it is now back to roughly where it was before last weeks rise, but is now falling at a rate far faster than it was. Lets see what effect the IC article has.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well I am very pleased to say that Claer Barrett (the author) contacted me via Chris Williams at the Register to consult on the article a couple of weeks ago. I had a very pleasant conversation with her about 2 hours long and have been providing her with updates and news between that phone call and now.

OK I have read the article I will post some quotes from it shortly but I have to finish this piece of work first.


Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

to blatantly steal from others:

let the ethical bloodsport that is watching phorms shares go tank tank tankety tank commence...

please? would be a most pleasant end to the week :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.b3tards.com/u/347704ecc2d...pe-o-matic.gif


Stratis Scleparis like it so much he bought the company... Emma Sanderson is currently beta testing the production version and has asked if gears can be added to speed it up!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is what my bank had to say about webwise...

We understand your concerns regarding Phorms open internet exchange monitoring your internet usage. The phorm service is limited to monitoring none-secure web only. This means that although it may see you visit our web site, it can not trace your activity when you log on to your Internet Banking.

If you are worried about your Internet Banking log on information being captured by Phorm, details will not be captured from our log-on screens as the are encrypted https pages. If you use the same log on information for any none-secure (http) sites we would recommend that you change your Internet Banking details to something new that you do not use elsewhere.

They are fully aware of Phorm and insist there is nothing to fear.

My second financial institution however has not yet responded other than to acknowledge receipt...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Lookup "Ciscogate" "DEFCON", this worried Cisco so much they even got the FBI involved to arrest the researcher under 'national security' if he released his finding to a gethering of a few hundred eager hackers gathered in Las Vegas. ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Kent and his type are only interested in generalisations that suit his\their argument. That type of person usually uses one liners that contain a sound bite within the spin and the only benefit of any kind has been thwarted by MS.

It doesn't matter to him that people use a variety of browsers but in argument the fact the current mainstream one is defaulting to anti phishing on is a useful counter argument.


I have watched the MS anti phishing in action and it may well be a pointer to the future if Phorm is implemented. Page transitions are much slower because of the delay in getting the OK back which points to the need for a blacklist to be either onboard (local computer) or at the DNS stage. OpenDns does the job extremely well with zero delay albeit there are sometimes false positives.

IMO it is quite an onerous task for an ISP to take on board because failure to operate a phishing blacklist properly could attract interest for failure to protect (neglect) and failure through false positives (again neglect). They could become culpable from two different directions.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Brilliant. Double plus good!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

just out of curiosity, where does the patent of that wipe-o-matic mention that the toilet paper goes 'afterwards' ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It is delivered to people who have taken the "opt-in" route as a reward. And once a month all their names and addresses are added into a big tombola for the much coveted 'Polished Turd' award, presented by a smarmy big grinned Phorm executive. :D


THIS JUST IN

I have been handed a note from Emma Sanderson's office... A lucky once a year winner of the BT/Phorm "opt-in" system will be invited down to BT headquarters for photographs and lunch with Phormscum and BT execs (and a special treat shake hands with Phorm CEO Kent Ertugrul -- Just ask Alexander Hanff what it's like!!!). The photo image will be used for a huge coconut welcome mat at the BT/Phorm headquarters in London were visitors will get to laugh and wipe their feet on you. WOW!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hrhrhrhr! Yes, and as Phorm are finding out, when you peddle filth you end up with a huge pile of cr@p.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Interesting question and answer article with one of Phorms competitors which describes phorms approach as an "adolescent approach to targetting."

http://www.e-consultancy.com/news-bl...targeting.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Notice how he didn't respond to the question which referred to how the technology is *deployed* rather than how it works within itself. Snake-oil salesman the lot of them.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

‘Someone’ has been busy. :)

I’m not sure it needs an investment specialist to tell us that. If I were that confident in my knowledge of the Zeitgeist in each country where Phorm have planned to deploy, I’d probably be off trying to use it to make money myself. Clearly, Phorm got it very wrong with the UK. They may have thought that, with all those CCTV cameras and the generally snooping police and government, that we wouldn’t mind, but forgot that “an Englishman’s home is his castle.�

The Nordic countries tend to be more privacy conscious. But, while The Register reported the furore over every Italian's tax bill published online, the Norwegians routinely publish everyone’s tax summary. In more homogeneous communities, there’s a tendency to have less fear from an invasion of privacy. Consider how far deCODE genetics has managed to get in Iceland. I’ve no idea how Phorm would play in countries like those. Even in North America, where Phorm, NebuAd, et al. might get past the people, they risk getting shredded by the legislator.

It’s potentially a little more complex than that. The blacklist is a list of (IP address, domain name) pairs. On BadPhorm, I briefly considered the problems.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Investors Chronicle

Few bits from the article for you all:

You can see this summary on Investors Chronicle

Obviously I couldn't type the entire article for copyright reasons but I have picked out the most relevant points. There really wasn't anything which could be read as positive for Phorm in the article with the exception of the hint that it might become target for a takeover.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

to the place that prints Phorm share certificates

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks Alexander.
Another nail in kents coffin.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

More from The Register

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05/16/antiphormlite/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/deta...play=community

Interesting list of investors in Phorm here

All the usual suspects

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I don't think that's a list of investors, it's a list of companies that investors in phorm also hold shares in...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Think you may have read that wrong. This is a list of peoples investments that have phorm. i.e. people that have phorm also have vodafone.

This is not saying thet Vodafone have shares in Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

oops but interesting nevertheless

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

there is a large correllation between investment in ISP's talking to Phorm, and Phorm itself. Probably directors with lots of shares with insider knowledge.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yep - 41% of Phorm investors also have shares in Northern Rock. Pretty clued up then!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Its only people who have registered their portfolio on iii - so its a pretty small sample size - so I wouldn't read too much into it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Close 1,450.00 -62.50 (-4.13%) 16:30 16/5/08

Period of Change .. Value ........... Change
1 week ............ 1,762.50 ... -312.50 -17.73%
1 mth .............. 1,487.50 ... -37.50 -2.52%
3 mths ............. 2,825.00 ... -1,375.00 -48.67%

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

you dont even need a closed unknown EXE app to do this anyway.
take a look at rebol (by carl of Amiga OS fame)scripting and you could even make a very quick nice GUI with rebol view on several OSs using the exact same script code.

take a look here for some working examples of rebol scripting
http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap...er=domain-HTML

http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap...pt=ipaddress.r

and the tiny rebol view or core for your OS to run the scripts here
http://www.rebol.com/view-platforms.html

we might even see some of you scripters makeing your fancy GUI antiPhorm scripts ;) available here in the open....

its tiny, its stand alone, it's covered all the tcp:ip/udp/uncasting/ and even multicasting in a 600k xp(or many other OS) app, what more could you want ...:dozey:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi All, I do not know if anybody has posted this already but here it is anyway. Slightly off topic but may be interesting to some of you. Keep up the good work! -
http://www.webuser.co.uk/news/256402.html

davethejag

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You're absolutely right. But it's the 'All Your Base' bit that's the legend. Y'know like the Rolf Harris 'Stylophone' and KTel's 'Bobble-o-matic'.

Apologies all <end of OT>

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Posted in case it affects any Users Here!

https://knowledge.verisign.com/suppo...AD91&actp=LIST

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you're looking for transparent scripts to call random URLs to add noise to your account, I have written two - One in Java and one in Python. They are on the phormwatch blog:

http://phormwatch.blogspot.com/

I agree, though, there are problems with running a script like that, not least because it will take up unnecessary bandwidth. The best solution is to leave your ISP.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05/16/antiphormlite/
Activist coders aim to deafen Phorm with white noise

Faking it for data pimps

By John Leyden → More by this author
Published Friday 16th May 2008 12:05 GMT

Updated Coding activists have developed an application designed to confound Phorm's controversial behaviour-tracking software by simulating random web-browsing.
The folks behind AntiPhormLite says this means actual browsing habits are buried in noise. The app, which is available free of charge, is designed to poison the anonymised click stream Phorm collects with meaningless junk, thereby (at least in theory) undermining its business model.
...
"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Their business model already busted with the must be opt in, thanks to the whistle blowers.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi,
Thanks guys for all your hard work. As a result of the Phorm issue I've changed my ISP from BT to IDNet.

I've started a Wikipedia page for "Data pimping" (as it has become a generic term for what all these nefarious companies are doing) so please help improve it from it's humble beginnings (and link to it in as many Wikipedia articles as appropriate).

Wikipedia - Data pimping

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:welcome: Geosynchronous.

Two good moves; dumping BT and the Wiki page. Thank you.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Binaries for starters :)

Im personaly not a fan of interpreted languages, id rather just stick to tried and tested c/c++ to get things done, sure its not "hip" like Haskel its not "cool" like Ruby on the rails, its also not a toy fad language.

I feel i may be a little close minded on the subject of languages but im old, and grouchy and know that id rather have something tried and tested and supplied with an optional knees deep documentation to rummage through and the reassurance that there will be a variety of newsgroup/irc channel/webpage resources with answers to quirky problems that i may stumble upon.

The only time i use interpreted languages is during the conceptual stage because without the need to continualy recompile i can test things faster before porting it to a real language as a release build.

and i dont feel im biased because of the fact its "ZOMG FASTAR", or has a "smaller footprint" or anything quite as convolouted as that. Ive written some code in c thats been highly unoptimised and hasnt performed nearly as well as the interpreted build, although that can be improved upon by making the code a little less clunky and a little more elegant.

My reason for favoring a compiled language over interpreted is simple. Its far easier for the end user to use and understand, and in this respect it is entirely faster. Click on a binary and go, no messing around with interpreters, configuring an environment or any of that nonsense (unless of course your running a linux/unix/bsd system in which case setting additional bumph is a way of life regardless)

The point is, if i give my brother a binary, he can use it. If i was to give him say a python script he would be essentialy clueless and take a few hours trying to figure out how to use it.

Rebol however looks like a nice language to tinker around with in my spare time, the fact remains however that interpreted languages are only easier for the programmer, and its the end user whos needs you need to cater for.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You have to wonder about privacy when.........

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05...ion_directive/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

you do know Carl Sassenrath was the guy that wote and gave the world the multitasking Amiga OS right, so he knows a thing or two about coding small, fast, and making it easy for the users?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sassenrath

sure, carl likes C and many of the older languages too, helped code and shape some of them along the way.

its a shame, but you cant get away from Binaries,you would be hard pushed to make your own and keep it so small given all the networking protocols inside it, but robol trys to make it as simple as it gets for a user, grab the Binary ,install it if you like, or run it from wereever you place it, double click a rebol.r text file script and Go, and it loads into the interpreter.

it as you imply, it also makes it a very good and quick prototypeing GUI capable language, and its scripts works as is on linux/unix/bsd systems ;)

http://www.rebol.com/plugin/install.html
this is fun
http://www.rebol.net/plugin/demos/pongo.html

---------- Post added at 21:54 ---------- Previous post was at 21:50 ----------

from toto's url above
"Government orders data retention by ISPs
Keep it for 12 months for the plods..."

and also today we have this report, its a good job we have been reading all the legislation and have some idea of how and why all this inter-relates ;)
http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...s-google-earth
"Spy in the sky banned in Europe

Google Earth too intrusive for Euro laws

By Nick Farrell: Friday, 16 May 2008, 9:17 AM



GOOGLE'S PLAN TO PUT detailed street-level images on the Internet will not be allowed in the European Union.
The EU's data protection agency said that Google's Street View, which shows ground-level, 360-degree views of streets in 30 US cities, would break EU privacy laws.
...
"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Interesting article on El Reg.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05...stions_nebuad/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That must cause more downward pressure on the Phorm share price on Monday. Another one for iii forum, for brettypoos to digest over the weekend. (Brettypoos last recorded utterance 8.18am, "it's still NOT too late to BUY Phorm".) It's certainly cheap at the moment!

10 days to the BT trials latest declared start date, and counting...
10...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think Brettypoos is one of Kents 'Spinsters'. I sometimes think 'answers?' Brettypoos gives on iii are to imagined conversations.

Makes me smile though, thinking about all the money Phorms investors stand to lose. Deservedly so in my opinion.

Anyone investing in or trying to make money from dubious operations deserve to lose all their ill gotten gains.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

And Phorm's shares bottom out Monday...


PHORM: Hello, is that Dell Business Finance?
DELL: Yes Sir, how may we help you?
PHORM: We'd like to set up a credit account with you to purchase customised tower mounted server hardware at an initial cost of £100,000.00 per unit
DELL: Certainly Sir, and your company name is?
PHORM: Phorm Inc.
DELL: Click Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


PHORM: Hello is that BT Webwise - erm about this trial... we've had some technological problems with the ISP kit we said w'ed install for free...


:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Great wiki.

I would keep an eye on it though. A certain company likes to edit out certain factual parts of wikis that it doesn't agree with.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This actually isn't new and is the result of European Law way back from 2004/2005. The difference is the ISP are only permitted to log the url's you visit not the content. It also covers email headers (not content).

So even the government "snooping" party is less invasive than Phorm and even though the data is retained the police still need a warrant to access it. The changes to RIPA mentioned in the article re: cell phones last October is the very reason I cancelled my contract phone of 8 years. I have recently rejoined the cell phone crowd though, but this time I am on an unregistered SIM and will remain so. Good for me (saves me a fortune in contract fees and protects my privacy) bad for the mobile provider (they lose my guaranteed income each month).

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alexander, are you saying then they can only get this information via an order from the court, not the usual RIPA requests they can make to an ISP?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's good to see that even though the technology hasn't really hit home yet in the US it's already under fire. Say's a lot about our 'leaders' though doesn't it?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It might have started to hit home in the US lets hope our politician sget of their backsides now and do something for the electorate.
http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/200...ssmen-ask.html

A flow chart patent for the nebuad
http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/200...-no-optin.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The petiton has finally passed 13,000 but has also been knocked down to fourth place by the fuel protestors.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/

Maybe we could encourage potential signees of the fuel duty petition to sign the anti-phorm petiton too - Anyone a member of some car forums?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The RIPA request requires a warrant irrespective of where it is being used, even ISPs. Or at least that is my interpretation of the law and is certainly how it is reported as being used.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I know it's a little out of date but it is something to keep for reference.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...rul/page4.html

The quote below would suggest that the Profiling is "Always ON", for
the simple reason that the Webwise System can tell you; by "Page
Injection", that they are profiling but not allowed to serve OIX ads!

-----------
KE:
The conversation over opt-in/opt-out is blurred by the one about
transparency. They want to always be aware about whether something is on
or off.
So we're going to do something unprecedented, and you'll never see this
anywhere. Which is, as they continue to browse periodically you're going
to see in an ad space "Webwise is on" or "Webwise is off", so it's more
like a feature. Frankly, it's bad business to have people feel like
something is being forced on them. Google stores everything you search,
but it never says, "look, by the way we're storing all this and we keep
it for a year".
------------

---------- Post added at 14:41 ---------- Previous post was at 13:19 ----------

Anyone who is using the Safari Browser should be aware that on 404 errors etc this browser "phones home" to Apple.

If a non-disposable e-mail address was used when downloading the Software, there will more than likely be a slow increase of SPAM from Apple promoting their other products.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That’s not my understanding of it, but IANAL either. You just need two different flavours of RIPA Authorising Officer. An investigator will make a request to a RIPA Single Point of Contact (SPoC). The SPoC will get authorisation from a RIPA Designated Person. The SPoC will then handle all the data flow between their organisation and the postal or telecommunications operator. Sadly, there’s no mention of a court or warrant. I thought the police only needed Home Office approval to tap the contents of telecommunications.

Here is the relevant section from Macclesfield Borough Council’s Policy on Use of Covert Surveillance:

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/07/23.png
4 Communications Data

4.1 The Regulation of Investigatory Powers (Communications Data) Order 2003 extends to local authorities the powers set out within RIPA to access communications data. Communications data includes information relating to the use of a communications service but does not include the contents of the communication itself. Communications data can be split into three types; “traffic data� ie where a communication was made from, to whom and when; “service data� ie
the use made of the service by any person eg itemised telephone records; and “subscriber data� ie any other information that is held or obtained by an operator on a person they provide a service to.

Local authorities are allowed to access ‘service data’ and ‘subscriber data’ but only for the purposes of the prevention or detection of crime or the prevention of disorder.

4.2 Access to communications data may be authorised in two ways; either (a) through an authorisation by a designated person which would allow the authority to collect or retrieve data itself, or (b) by a notice given to a postal or telecommunications operator requiring that operator to collect or retrieve the data and provide it to the local authority.

4.3 Application will be made by the investigating officer and submitted to a Single Point of Contact (SPOC) who will either accept or reject the application. If the SPOC accepts the application he/she will forward it together with a SPOC report and a draft notice (where appropriate) to a Designated Person for authorisation. If the Designated Person accepts the application, the forms will be returned to the SPOC and the SPOC will deal with the postal or telecommunications operator directly. The SPOC will also advise investigating officers and Designated Persons on whether an authorisation or a notice is appropriate in the circumstances .

4.4 No officer will be nominated as the Council’s SPOC unless that officer has received training on a course recognised by the Home Office
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/07/24.png

The end of the document gives the names of those two Authorising Officers.

My biggest worry is that, while ISPs store only which websites are accessed, not which pages, Phorm get a stream of full URLs. All parties have to trust that Phorm won’t use those URLs to obtain full page contents at a later time, by making their own requests for the pages. The stream of full URLs can be considered to be a highly compressed for of the full traffic; you can use those snippets of information to reconstruct nearly all of the original.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Here is an interesting thread over on Badphorm.co.uk titled "ALL MEMBERS READ *** IMPORTANT ***"

I think it's interesting from the point of view that BT/Phorm have created a situation where the very nature of trust on the Internet is being called into question. When you can't trust your own ISP service provider who can you trust? This thread isn't about BT/Phorm directly (or is it?) it is about one of the moderators warning people about an SQL Injection from a website based in Texas, USA and a suspicious NMAP scan... And as you can see from the details badphorm.co.uk webserver is based in Texas, USA.

As we uncover more dirt on the BT/Phorm saga and the word gets out to a wider audience (the masses). More and more people are naturally going to become paranoid, upset, uncertain and suspicious of every little thing that happens on the Internet... And who's fault is that? Well basically my money is one guy in particular a sneaky shyster @sshole called Stratis Scleparis, this toe tag is responsible for what has been happening at BT and Phorm, he is Phorm's CTO and was formally BT Retails CTO. The guy that made this Phorm sh*t spying happen. Emma Sanderson's involvement may have been as co-conspirator back when sneak Scleparis was in charge of the BT spying but she is definately upto her neck in the sh*t now.

IANAL but I think BT will have a case to answer for with regards to psychological damage done to their customers. I just want people to bear this in mind as they may have a case for suing BT at some point in the future.

http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?5712.0

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Another example of Kent making statements about how an ISP implementation of Webwise works, when he is only responsible for Phorm.

BT have said, categorically, that as far as the Webwise trial goes, they will not inject javascript - so it will be interesting to see if this "Webwise is ON/OFF" message relies on javascript injection or is just "one of the ads" that they deliver to the page.

But a lot of sewage has flowed under the bridge since that article.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks Alexander.

I understood that a RIPA request didn't require a court sanctioned warrant, assuming that is what you are referring too, but still its no matter really.

The fact though that an ISP must now record all sites visited based on IP address is a little concerning, especially when we consider how many times Phorm have denied that they can access this information based on IP address.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BT have said, categorically, that as far as the Webwise trial goes, they will not inject javascript - so it will be interesting to see if this "Webwise is ON/OFF" message relies on javascript injection or is just "one of the ads" that they deliver to the page.

But a lot of sewage has flowed under the bridge since that article.[/QUOTE]


The mere delivery of an AD on a page from another Server stating Webwise ON or OFF would still be proof of constant redirection/profiling, if/when Webwise was supposed to not be profiling!
This in effect would be "Page Injection" by the Phorm System for which I would account BT responsible!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think this is an interesting and worrying statement. I have been in the position whereby a computer I am 'cleaning' or investigating has had strange and worrying IP symptoms. Normally, I can narrow down the problem down by some simple testing and ruling out the obvious safe harbours.

In a hypothetical scenario: I am in a similar position with Phorm/Webwise intercepting my data by deep packet inspection. I don't trust them and I am aware of the latent power available in this invasive technology. I have strange IP symptoms on the PC I am investigating and I am trying to logically prove where and why the problem occurred and how to fix it?

How can I ever hand on heart rule out malpractice on their part if I don't trust Phorm. I have little or no respect for Phorm and I am aware of their rootkit, PeopleOnPage, ContextPlus adware history as 121Media!

It would be impossible for me to do true logical analysis because if Phorm/Webwise was in place, knowing their in-line position, intercepting my data stream and knowing they theoretically have the ability do anything they so desired, I could never rule them out as the source of the problem because hand on heart, I will never trust them!

This really has to be stopped! ISP's must realise this 'lack of trust' knock on effect is very important as well as the general privacy and legal issues we all shout about.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I don't think the ISP's are required to retain any other data other than the IP that was allocated to a customer at any given time or date and the duration of the allocation (all that is required for billing purposes) and the police would require a warrant to access this information:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05...ion_directive/

"Law enforcement agencies can gain access to such data with a court-ordered warrant. Though providers almost uniformly keep the information for such periods to resolve any future billing disputes, the laws will ensure that they do so."

"The reality is that nothing much has changed. The new legislation will make little practical difference as most telecoms providers keep certain information for billing purposes and customer records," said Michael Eagle of the Federation of Communications Services. "That information would be enough to meet the requirements of law enforcement agencies. There is no need to keep more data that you are ever likely to be asked for."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My money is on it being Kent talking rubbish again. (Shock, horror!)
As you say, if Webwise is off, how do they control ANYTHING I see - especially as the BT Webwise "diagrams" (ha ha) show non-opted-in customers going nowhere near the Phorm equipment.

At the present state of play my gut feeling is that whatever system BT trial (due in the next 10 days -if they trial anything) it won't be a bit like what Kent Ertugrul former rootkit merchant has been talking about. But there again - that relies on BT Retail being
a) sensible
b) competent
c) having integrity
d) wanting to obey the law
e) having any regard at all for their customers

So maybe I'm being over-optimistic.

However - I do think there are some people in BT Retail currently buying in extra anti-perspirant and toilet paper which is a comforting thought.


Incidentally - I'm starting to distinguish in my posts and letters and emails betwen BT, BT Retail and BT Wholesale - it worries them when you do that.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Not necessarily. Since the ads inserted on OIX sites are choosen by the Phorm servers (which change these ads to targetted ones for those who are opted in) it is perfectly feasible to have a bunch of ads to be served to all who are not opted in (and anybody else not in the Phorm network for that matter) which have a "Phorm is off, click here to turn on" button. They will only change the ads for opted in customers, who will get the other version. No need to check whether you are opted in to serve these generic ads.

Non Phorm customers may wonder what it all about but will get the message that your ISP is not using Phorm if they click on it.

(I think I have understood what I have been trying to say....)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

ISP's already do this, they keep IP allocation records so that under RIPA the police can request the account details of who owned what IP address on a given date/time.

This act goes one better, the police can now also ask what sites were visited based on an IP address, or possibly based on known account information. ISP's will be required to "keep logs of internet usage" for a period of 12 months.

What is of concern is this quote in The Register article.

Now, call me paranoid, but education councils have already "exploited" RIPA to spy on parents who wanted their child to attend a certain school.

The article says I know for fact that police do not need a court ordered warrant to access IP data history, there is provision within RIPA to allow such requests to be passed through central controlled divisions within the police ranks. What's to say this will not be accessed in the same way, or in fact that the article has got this bit wrong?

But lets cut to the chase, this act, proposed by the government as part of an EU directive that they now need to ratify means this.

Our Internet usage from a certain date on will be recorded and retained for a period of 12 months by our ISP. What isn't clear is which public authorities will be able to access such data.

As Alexander has said, this is nothing new, however, this is the first time to my knowledge that this requirement will be enshrined in Law, and the first time for sure our browsing data will be recorded, and can be used as part of a criminal or national security investigation.

Obviously my point is off-topic as it doesn't directly relate to Phorm, but this is about privacy.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The ISP's have fought legislation like this for years their main bone of contention being who is going to pay to store the data. The sweetener, for them, came with the announcement that the law will only require them to store the type of data that would normally be required for billing purposes.

A typical scenario where the police would want to access the data:

The police take down a website used by paedophiles / terrorist suspects - all the site's visitors will have left their IP's and the time and date they visited on the site's hit log. The police sort the IP's into their respective ISP IP ranges. Using this collected evidence as justification a court will grant them a warrant to access ISP data. They then match the IP/date/time from the website with the corresponding data retained by the ISP to identify their suspect.

I don't know about the council's use of RIPA but in this case the police are required to provide the court with evidence in order to justify the granting of a warrant.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I hope you're right, because currently under RIPA the police can request account details based on IP address with date/time without going to the courts, this is what the RIPA act is all about.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The problem is that if a prosecution depended on it the police would have to show that all the evidence had been collected in accordance with all the relevant legislation or else risk a clever defence lawyer convincing a judge that it should be ruled as inadmissible.

This has happened on several occasions were the police prosecution case has relied on evidence collected from mobile phone wire taps carried out without a warrant and so deemed illegal.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes, but not all cases, and the gathering of certain data, i.e IP log history only goes to bolster a police investigation, and may not be used as evidence.

E.g. Under the new law, the police can go to the courts to request a warrant (or enforce RIPA if this new legislation allows it) to enter a premises and extract computer equipment where they have reason to suspect that the owner may potentially be a paedophile based on what URL's have been recorded against his Internet account in the last year. Now, having recorded URL's may not be evidence, but extracting that evidence under new legislation will be easy, and will provide the needed evidence for a warrant to be issued so that the claim can be investigated further, such as through forensic examination of any computer equipment in that property.

My point is this, up until now, the police could request from an ISP who owned an IP address at a particular time in the past, or currently and they wouldn't need a court order. The new legislation coming into force would require our ISP to record basic internet activity, such as sites visited for a rolling 12 month period, and the police could request that information also, without the need for an interception request, also available under RIPA, and does not need a judge to sign it off. Whether this new legislation can be administered through RIPA as it stands is yet to be seen.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

side tracked here i think, i cannot see the police selling the data for profit and sending adverts.
unless you really got something to hide.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Indeed, my point was about privacy though, I don't wish the subject at hand to be side-tracked.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

One for USA readers (if any)

Penalty for wilful infringement of a registered copyright is $150,000.

Cost of registering $300 lawyers charge + $30 fee.

Cost of a payout :), (almost) priceless.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The DPP would tell them not to use it for any reason as it would be of detriment to the prosecution case

Sorry, I think I'm missing something here, can you tell me where it states in the Communications Data Bill or the European Union's Data Retention Directive that ISP's are required to record the websites that their customers visit over a period of 12 months please?

The reason I ask is that I can't see them complying with that (definitely not the French ISP's) because of the sheer volume of data involved, the time it would take to collect and the space required to store it all. There is also the implementation problem in that ISP may only use their Deep Packet Inspection hardware for tasks relative to providing and maintaining an Internet Service like "traffic shaping" and not profiling their customers by monitoring the pages they visit. This is what Phorm is proposing and the Home Office have already stated that this can only be done with the explicit consent of the ISP's customers so any law which allowed the ISP's to collect this information willy-nilly would surely be a contradiction?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

LOL, iv just posted this cf url over on the wired blog and invited them (US, and canadian dont forget them)to come here and start their own Anti DPI Phormettes NebuAd thread so they can collect all their interesting facts in one place and start their own local fight.

http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/200...ment-115047832

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

@Toto

I think I know the answer to the question I asked you in my last post...

I have just read the "comments" on the El Reg article
"Government orders data retention by ISPs" http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05...ion_directive/
I can see now how easy it would be to draw the conclusion that this law will require that ISP's record and store their customer's browsing history. I think it's a case of people jumping to conclusions. Almost certainly due to the antics of BT and Phorm et al now everyone expects the whole industry including government to try and pull underhand strokes in an effort to remove even the slightest hint of privacy from their lives and have become conditioned into reading that into every piece of remotely related news.

I've been following this for several years and such has been the inflexibility of the ISP's that implimenting data retention has been an uphill struggle for all the European governments!
It's not what it seems believe me and the register bless them do little to quell the hysteria

In the article it states:

The information referred to here is what the ISP's have always collected: IP allocation, date, time, duration which they can (but seldom do) use for billing customers or billing disputes. The only thing this legislation changes is that now it's compulsory for an ISP to retain this (and only this) information for 12 months.

Requiring ISP's to monitor and retain their customers browsing history would make a Massive difference and would probably force many of the smaller providers out of business.

:)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

theres no contradiction as such, just as the
Article 29 Data Protection Working Party will find a way to include and cover in detail at some point that EU wide Directive of your ISP given IP address is personal data under the DPA, how the UK will include that final Directive in to UK law when the times right is another matter OC :erm:

the ISPs and the 3rd party companys Phorm/NebuAd etc not being Govt Agencys and would be in very hot water if they tryed to subvert any Govt agency or police dept/personel.

its not the same as the subversion of the end users of the ISPs inthe UK.
:erm:


the only reason Phorm and NebuAD can DPI intercept the users is because the ISP executive have allowed it to happen, we need someone to take the law and show these executives what it means for them personally.

another stanford type RIPA case is all it would take to stop this in its tracks, but it appears all the effected BT customers dont have the data and the will or perhaps finances to push that point.

and the right Govt people dont want to take on the costs of such a case just yet ,prefering to pass the bucket of sick around to the next department....:rolleyes:

OC lets not forget the DPI vendures also have a larg part in all this too, as they were not happy being just DPI vendures and want MORE variaty of DPI products in use no matter the cost to the real consumer/end users, long term.

their so called efforts 'to create value-added service offerings'

funny how i found these references while i was looking for Docsis3 news and related information :erm:

http://www.cable360.net/ct/news/scte/24920.html
"July 31, 2007
"Deep Packet Inspection and Beyond
Whatcha Got There?
By Carl Weinschenk"

its clear were he/they got the later Digital [Program] Insertion ideas from here, something else to look forward to and improve your remote mute speeds...
http://www.cable360.net/ct/sections/features/25335.html
"September 1, 2007
Digital Program Insertion
By Michael Acer, Scopus Video Networks
...
Taking targeted ads further

Continually evolving technologies for targeted content insertion hold the promise of reaching consumers on an individual basis.

The increasing adoption of digital set-top boxes by consumers and the wholesale migration of the broadcast industry to digital operations, in conjunction with advances in the leveraging of purchasing and marketing data, mean that DPI has the potential to bring tailored advertising to specific viewers at a household level.

Robust encoding and multiplexing solutions allow all players in the digital video food chain to maximize local ad dollars for a valuable bottom-line boost.
"

linked off this
http://www.cable360.net/ct/data/25528.html
"September 10, 2007
Deep Packet Inspection, Version 2
By Jonathan Tombes

The collision of abbreviations, like that of celestial objects, is a rare but enlightening event. Take DPI, for instance.

Digital program insertion (DPI) appeared on the editorial calendar of Communications Technology, and this month's issue features an article on that very topic. Meanwhile, we heard from firms representing the several companies engaged in the other DPI (deep packet inspection).
"

http://www.cable360.net/search/ct/?q...spection&issue=

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

might be interesting, a nice easy online option for Phorm matters perhaps...

http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/pi...ay/084734.html
"FOI requests and WhatDoTheyKnow
Ian Mason ukcrypto at chiark.greenend.org.uk
Fri, 16 May 2008 18:26:40 +0100
Previous message: Interesting Work Factors
Next message: FOI requests and WhatDoTheyKnow
Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As there are some frequent Freedom Of Information Act requesters here
I thought I'd draw everybody's attention to the latest production
from the folks at MySociety.
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/ is a website that helps you submit FOI
requests and then publicly tracks their progress. It has a number of
advantages principal of which, in my opinion, is that it could build
into a very useful central repository of FOI replies.
Anyway, take a look for yourselves and form your own opinion.
Regards,
Ian

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Indeed, its a staggerng amount of data, but I noticed this comment.

Now, IP allocation is not Internet activity as such. I always leave my router on, but turn off my PC's, so no browsing activity is going on. Does the above mean that this new law will require ISP's to also collect what URL's were visited in the last 12 months, and what email communications were made?

I hope not, but if it is true, Phorm will be a minor inconvenience compared to this little nugget.

I have looked at the actual directive itself, you can get a PDF of it from here and it isn't that clear if I am honest. At the very least it would seem to indicate, as was mentioned in The Register article, that most ISP's are already doing this, the article therefore just appears to give a maximum time frame for the retention of such data. Whether it requires the storage of sites visited is not clear, that's one for the legal boffins here to decide.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Has anyone any input to http://www.vigay.com/ ? It is giving false positives for some users and redirecting to http://antiphorm.vigay.com/index.html

I'm on Plusnet but usually connect via RIN which gives:So I can understand why that appears to be BT.

But it is also giving the same error to users connecting via the Plusnet normal centrals. I am getting the same errors when connected to 80.229.7.xxx. I've seen another report from 84.92.150.xxx.

Plusnet has publicly stated it is having nothing to do with Phorm.

I also note that on the Dephormation website under the webmaster tools it saysBrightview/Madasafish are owned by BT but operated by Plusnet and use some of the same IP ranges. They should not be included as they come under the same Plusnet policy statement. I wonder if this is the reason for the false Plusnet positives.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Remember this is not about the user's choice, this is about the ISPs choice.

Until recently, Plusnet were posting to their newsgroups saying that they couldn't see a problem with Phorm...

Ian Wild said to quote

"What I said was that if the majority of the benefit is given back to consumers and people are explicitly made aware that it's happening with their data, I can't see the problem with approaches along these lines."

From the perspective of a web master, that's the wrong answer. Phorm (opt in or out) abuses web site owners copyrights, and intrudes on their private communications.

If Plusnet can't see the problem with that I'm not very sympathetic. If you can point me to an official statement that says they will never implement Phorm (or anything like it) despite Ian Wilds comments, I'll certainly consider taking them out of the list on Dephormation.

PS: Incidentally I note in anther post Ian Wild states

"I can't guarantee that the RIN platform won't be affected (It presumably will)"

PPS: more

I don't think it's a bad thing provided the advantages are shared with customers and nothing is done without the knowledge of the customers affected.

So that would not include sharing the benefit with the content/copright owner? Or concern to avoid compromising their privacy?

Sin bin as far as I'm concerned. Other web masters might take different views.

Pete

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I regularly email people in the Middle east, China, Korea, the US and Russia.

How long do i have before my door kets kicked in and im detained as a terrorist?
Or do i need to become a Muslim before this will take place?

I mean if there are logs of this im certain it would look like i was part of a terror cell rather than just an average citizen.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

PAYG/RIN users have two available logins, one for RIN and one for the normal network. They have already suggested that if people are concerned they should move back to the normal login. I suspect that if RIN is affected it will be shut down pronto as it would be contrary to the existing T&C's.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What will they think of me, the bulk of my emails that come from Banks around the world telling me they have lost my personal details and emails for drugs that I can't do without.

An amnesiac, sex addict hypochondriac?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi All, I do not know if this has been posted already, if it has I apologise.

http://webworkerdaily.com/2008/05/17...s-think-again/

Regards to all, davethejag

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://p10.hostingprod.com/@spyblog....g-centres.html
Path Intelligence - Phorm for shopping centres ?

May 18, 2008 12:07 PM
Just in case you thought that Phorm was the only threat to your privacy, here is an example of similar "no opt out" snooping technology being installed in the infrastructure of a public space, a shopping centre, which secretly snoops on individuals, without their informed prior consent, in the hope that advertising and sales revenues can be maximised.
There is no way, short of switching off your mobile phone, of opting out or avoiding this snooping scheme.
The Times has a story:

From Times Online May 16, 2008 Shops secretly track customers via mobile phone
...
"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hello all,

I'd appreciate your feedback on a new version of Dephormation (v1.8)

This prerelease version adds experimental Nebuad suppression (based on Mel's analysis of the faireagle a/b cookies on ISP review).

I've also added in this version a detailed browser state logging feature that reveals redirects used by these systems to create cross domain cookies, without needing a proxy server. (Click on tools/error console, and click the 'i messages' button to see a full log of browser state changes).

Features removed, I've taken out code which created a webwise_status cookie. I think this has been redundant for some time, it was created by early versions of the Webwise site when you opted out (but until Phorm publish their specification...).

Please give the code a whirl and let me know where I've mucked up. If I don't hear about show stoppers I'll release it in a few days. I'd be particularly interested in feedback from USA with respect to Nebuad.

Please send me a PM to say you've downloaded and installed, so I know its being tested.

http://www.dephormation.org.uk/prere...phormation.xpi

IMPORTANT: THE ONLY WAY TO PROTECT YOUR CONNECTION FROM DPI IS SWITCHING ISP. DEPHORMATION WILL NOT PROTECT YOU.

Pete

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I haven’t seen it mentioned before. That APML’s another specification that’s too complicated and will be completely ignored by any business that doesn’t like the idea. In those respects, it looks like another P3P, which will make it as useful as a chocolate teapot. It also replaces boolean values with numerical ones. This is a concern I have about Phorm’s future; that profiles will be come increasingly like fingerprints.

Martin Smith is a member of the advertising community looking for something like APML. He has expressed serious concerns over the type of behavioural targeting being offered by Phorm:

Smart Targeting Respects Consumers’ Privacy

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/07/23.png Just because you have the capability to do something technically doesn’t mean you should. https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/07/24.png

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Again this is not new. This directive became public knowledge way back in 2004/2005 era and yes, as I stated in my first response they are required to log all web sites you visit and the headers of all emails. But, and I reiterate this despite what some people seems to believe to the contrary, the public authorities must obtain a warrant to access this information and it doesn't contain any contents.

Quite how you think this is worse than Phorm who don't obtain a warrant and who read all the content as well as just the headers, is beyond my comprehension.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 22:14 ---------- Previous post was at 22:08 ----------

If you were a risk you would have already been picked up by Echelon. The new data retention laws (although bad) are not an open book, warrants are required and they can only used in the prevention/detection of real suspected crimes not just some random search "in case" there might be a crime in there somewhere.

Now don't get me wrong I have been speaking out against the EU Data Retention Directive since its inception several years ago but the public are the ones responsible for this legislation being passed. If people had been more concerned for privacy back then as they are now, then the correct procedures could have been followed to try and block it in the first place.

But to compare this to Phorm is ludicrous, Phorm is far far more sinister.

Also this logging is easy to avoid. First you just need to run your own email (or use a 3rd party email outside of the EU as opposed to your ISP email). That deals with the email logging issue. Secondly web logging can be avoided by using a VPN. Not ideal solutions, but at least options.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I dont feel that it is worse than phorm by a long chalk but it is pretty bad, i've personaly got nothing to hide and have no real fear percieved or otherwise regarding the email issue, but i know people just as ligitimate as i am who could quite easily (due to their ethnicity and background) become targeted as deviants, this is what concerns me.

However i would wholeheartedly agree that while theres interesting debate to be had over this new piece of information (atleast new to myself) it would serve no real use doing so in this thread and would serve only to deviate from the primary objective of making sure Phorm equipment gets eaten by those wierd texas "raspberry" ants.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3941545.ece

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Exactly, the point remains that there is nothing we can do about the EU Directive, it was passed years ago and has been creeping into British Law for same amount of time. To turn that around (if even possible) would take probably decades.

Phorm is a different story, we can still stop Phorm and in my opinion -must- still stop Phorm, otherwise we allow corporations to go even further without any accountability than the public authorities are currently able to.

Alexander Hanff