Cable Forum - Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Cable Forum (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/index.php)

- Virgin Media Internet Service (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/forumdisplay.php?f=12)

- - Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797] (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33628733)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTLVictim (Post 34584204)

:notopic: Ok, who can spot the delicious irony relating to the quote I just used?

It was used in a BT advert on the telly, I believe. :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

:welcome: Sue,

Like the other contributors have said, I'd like to thank you for taking on board the concerns of everyone, and for coming here to make your post. It really is refreshing to see someone taking on board the implications systems like Phorm's could have and bringing it up in the house of Lords.

Thank you :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sue Miller (Post 34584222)

Dear Cable Forum,

Since I spoke in the Lords about data protection, I have learnt more about the gaps in the regulations covering organisations such as Phorm and their webwise system. I agree that there are serious questions to be answered about information interception through ISPs and its implications for web users and website owners.

I am grateful to several forum members for contributing to my understanding of the next steps that can be taken in legislation.

Data protection and privacy are increasingly under threat in this country, partly because the internet is awash with peopleÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s personal information. The general public has, like me, a pretty basic understanding of the technology, so it has been especially useful to have such a lively correspondence following the debate. Thank you for working hard to bring to light the issues involved in this case. While the Lords may not seem to you to be a natural place to debate questions of online data security, I assure you that the Liberal Democrats in both Houses will work hard to ensure the better regulation of data protection both off- and on-line.

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer
Liberal Democrat Home Affairs Spokesperson

Thank you for taking your time to post this. And thank you for indicating that you, the Liberal Democrats, are taking onboard our serious concerns.

You should be congratulated on your approach, and I am more confident now that our voices are being heard.

:clap:

Oh and hey - welcome to the debate :D :waving:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

On a sad note I had emailed BT's CEO Ian Livingston

Quote:

Hello Ian,

I have been watching the shares and saddened to see the investment now
at a low Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£2 per share much lower than we paid for them.. This link with
Phorm will be the killer for BT not its saviour good business management
is what saves a company. People are asking when will BT show backbone
and withdraw from this invasion of customers privacy with something that
breaks the rules for WWW.

The American people are getting more protection from their SP and
government than the UK I do feel strongly about this invasion as a
internet user of many years i block all adverts I refuse to pay
bandwidth to be force fed adverts. Many others feel the same, I have a
very important question which is:

Once you change the privacy policy to accommodate Phorm will you be
allowing customers to migrate out from their contracts without charging
the balance?

I am asking this question from you since you are the main person at BT
and will no doubt the person who will be contacted by all who wish to
leave due to the alterations to T&C or privacy policy. Any alteration
that changes the package to the detriment of the customer is allowed to
leave without penalty. To intercept the browsing is detrimental to the
customer so makes all claims to leave free of charge valid.
I await your reply with anticipation..

Just had Your message

To: Livingston,I,Ian,CGEC R
Cc:
Subject: Had you considered
Sent: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:19:32 +0100

was deleted without being read on Wed, 25 Jun 2008 16:52:35 +0100

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

nothing new there Florence they been trashing loads of emails.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldBear (Post 34584268)

It was used in a BT advert on the telly, I believe. :)

Correct, from 1993...what goes around...bites bad people in the arse!:D

Ridicule is a very effective weapon against this type of "people".

Keep talking..:)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sue Miller (Post 34584222)

Dear Cable Forum,

Since I spoke in the Lords about data protection, I have learnt more about the gaps in the regulations covering organisations such as Phorm and their webwise system. I agree that there are serious questions to be answered about information interception through ISPs and its implications for web users and website owners.

I am grateful to several forum members for contributing to my understanding of the next steps that can be taken in legislation.

Data protection and privacy are increasingly under threat in this country, partly because the internet is awash with people’s personal information. The general public has, like me, a pretty basic understanding of the technology, so it has been especially useful to have such a lively correspondence following the debate. Thank you for working hard to bring to light the issues involved in this case. While the Lords may not seem to you to be a natural place to debate questions of online data security, I assure you that the Liberal Democrats in both Houses will work hard to ensure the better regulation of data protection both off- and on-line.

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer
Liberal Democrat Home Affairs Spokesperson

:welcome: Baroness Sue Miller

;)

thanks for taking my advice in the Fax, and the comment at
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/lords/...8-06-12a.724.5
and posting here.

You are the Very first house of Lords member as far as i Know to post directly to the cable forum Ever, and to such an important subject as this , you are most welcome.

special award required perhaps ;)

given that you are so busy i dont want to scare you off as a one time poster to CF, now that you have posted to this Phorm thread, you will see that every new post here will now find its way to your signed up Email address.

its might be advisable to set a filter (ask your son, or ask here for help, that helping people is CF's main purpose) in your Email client to place all these informative (sometimes off topic but related) posts into a new Phorm Email folder for you to skip through and read at your leisure.

if you decide you dont want to get all these Phorm posts in your email, you can simply click your top left usercp
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/usercp.php

and unsubscribe from the Phorm thread , that stops email notifcation, simple and easy.

you might be wise to read some of it to keep upto date perhaps, if you can find the time.

if the mods here think it might be a good idea, they can also make a new section especially for all your Govt and related friends to come and contribute Directly with us Broadband End Users (its not just cable users here, but everyone that need/ wants help and community).

bypassing all the usual channels (PR ,emails and fax to PA's companies offices HOL, and the other place etc)that just get in the way of realtime understanding, and slow things down way to much for internet users all over the Uk and EU used to near realtime Meassage boards etc.

you could ofcourse just have your friends and Govt colleagues join CF http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/register.php the longest Phorm and related thread anywere :angel:

and start a new CF thread easy enough OC.

hopefully this will find its way to your CF signed up email address, and you will keep your eye on this Cf thread from now on, perhaps even post with your views now and again.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Apologies for triggering all your dephormation warnings, but would anyone care to bet how long the following stays on the website?

http://blog.phorm.com/uncategorized/...ouse-of-lords/

Every time I tried to post a comment to the blog, the anti-bot software stopped me, even though I entered the correct letters. So the option to post a comment is just an e-mail address/IP collecting exercise as far as i'm concerned.

----

On the topic of trials.

Although the police have had, at best, a 'manana' approach to the issue, I wonder how much differently they would handle reports of an ongoing crime?

They might be able to fudge an issue that is in the past, but if someone reports something that is happening now, they risk an awful lot by not investigating.

I wonder if BT is aware of this and I also wonder if they would risk starting a trial that might break their network, just a few weeks before the AGM.

I also suspect that the outgoing chairman (I think the AGM is changeover day) will not risk all the grief on his watch?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sue Miller (Post 34584222)

Welcome :welcome: Baroness Sue Miller.

You have my full admiration and respect. It is good to know that our grave concerns are being looked into.

Thank you again.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sue Miller (Post 34584222)

Dear Cable Forum,

Since I spoke in the Lords about data protection, I have learnt more about the gaps in the regulations covering organisations such as Phorm and their webwise system. I agree that there are serious questions to be answered about information interception through ISPs and its implications for web users and website owners.

I am grateful to several forum members for contributing to my understanding of the next steps that can be taken in legislation.

Data protection and privacy are increasingly under threat in this country, partly because the internet is awash with people’s personal information. The general public has, like me, a pretty basic understanding of the technology, so it has been especially useful to have such a lively correspondence following the debate. Thank you for working hard to bring to light the issues involved in this case. While the Lords may not seem to you to be a natural place to debate questions of online data security, I assure you that the Liberal Democrats in both Houses will work hard to ensure the better regulation of data protection both off- and on-line.

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer
Liberal Democrat Home Affairs Spokesperson

Hello Baroness Sue Miller, welcome to the cable forums.

Thank you for taking time to post the response above. It is very, very much appreciated.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

I have created a wiki for bt, phorm & webwise. feel free to add away.

www.btweblies.com/wiki

Jtech

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

http://www.openrightsgroup.org/newsb...rtising-rules/
"
EC to update online commerce and advertising rules

Posted by Richard in Computer Law at June 25th, 2008
Outlaw.com reports:

A new set of consumer contract laws to harmonise the rules that govern online selling across the EU will be proposed this autumn by the European Commission. The EU’s consumer chief also promised fresh guidance on viral adverts and profiling technology."

http://www.out-law.com//default.aspx?page=9208
"
E-commerce laws to be rewritten by European Commission

OUT-LAW News, 25/06/2008

A new set of consumer contract laws to harmonise the rules that govern online selling across the EU will be proposed this autumn by the European Commission. The EU's consumer chief also promised fresh guidance on viral adverts and profiling technology.

Addressing a roundtable on digital issues in London on Friday, European Consumer Commissioner Meglena Kuneva said that while e-commerce is succeeding at national level, cross-border e-commerce is failing to keep pace. The European Commission believes that simpler and better-harmonised consumer laws will boost the sector.

The results of EU surveys among 26,000 consumers and 7,200 businesses were announced by Kuneva on Friday. They show that while a third of the EU's 490 million consumers have bought something online, only seven percent have bought from foreign suppliers.

Of those with web access at home, 56% have bought online; but only 13% have made a cross-border purchase.
"These figures underline how much work we still have to do to boost confidence in the online internal market," said Kuneva.

"

thats a lot of potential Phorm Intercepted datastreams to add to their unlawful "derivative works" for their profit at the direct expense of the end users and their right to privacy and copyright enforcement.

another failed law enforcement as they hope we cant afford the court fees to uphold and enforce our rights in a private case.

Baroness (Sue) we Ordinary End Users, that cant afford real "High Court" Justice costs to get a fair hearing/ruling, need a way to hold these Private companys to account , get real with FOI(Freedom of Information Act) and amend it to include any and all Uk registered Uk companys , make it enforcable in law, make sure that law is acted upon and as least investigated...

your good self, Lord Northesk,the Earl of Erroll, etc, are showing us direct proof that you take these matters seriously, but until theres a real way for the average End users to take steps and set in motion some form of action, a clear path to bring obvious breaches of current law to some form of Investigation, we all loose, except the Executive, Board rooms, and the investors OC.

this Phorm matter as a clear case in point, we the direct End Users effected have got questions asked in the house and the HOL, but look at the responses, its like they are in play group, "(1)its not me, (2)he did it" so you go and ask (2), no, sorry not me, you need to ask (3), you ask (3), nope not us, see (1) ....

round and round the users go, and all the time nothing is investigated,or actioned, we need to stop this NOW, set clear and exact rules and stick to them.

on the off chance ill just ask ;), would your good self, Lord Northesk,the Earl of Erroll and any others you might have access to, like to meet Alexander and the many Effected End Users here that are going to the protest see Alexanders #10000

not to join us in protest OC (unless that is your personal stance and wish,if you have BT Installed in your offices and/or homes and will also be subject to this Phorm Interception Of course dont forget that and tell your peers ;) ) but rather, to take advantage of having face to face Informal chats with Us (non tech and tech alike)and a mutual swapping of information and potential informed idea's while we are all in the same place....

its not often people get down to london but many are making the concerted effort were they can to be there in person, so it seems like your chance to meet many of them there or send a rep to the meeting, book a local room for an after the event , all of you Lords etc, can host your own relaxing roundtable information chat.

and remember, even the people that cant get there in person for whatever reason, travelling costs, time off, disability ,etc, will hopefully get to be there in spirit, and online at least, if the realtime wireless web connections manage to keep up, as we watch any sound and video clips the attendees manage to upload realtime etc.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Excellent post Popper.

I particularly wish to emphasise the following paragraphs from the Out-law.com news story covering the round table meeting in London last Friday June 20th...

Privacy

[European Consumer Commissioner Meglena] Kuneva expressed concern about the targeting of adverts in what might be interpreted as a reference to recent controversy over Phorm, an advertising technology firm.

"If you watch tennis over the internet, you will be targeted with ads for tennis items. If you read about home improvement, chances are that you will receive ads for repair services and new furniture," she said. "But there are some concerns that the amounts of personal data collected over the internet without the awareness of users, let alone their consent, is getting too large and a bit out of control."

"The European Data Protection Supervisor has stated that our current legislation requires explicit consent each time personal data is collected. The reality on internet is far removed from these principles," she said.

Kuneva continued: "Currently many websites offer to click for 'enhanced services'. Is this an informed consent? How many people actually know that this amounts to consent to having their behaviour tracked, to have that data stored and then used commercially? What would be fair terms in an agreement to allow tracking? Publishers currently have privacy policies that allow the installation of tracking devices that are not themselves covered by their privacy policy. Is this a fair term? I believe that informed consent is the central issue that consumer policy must next address."

Yet another person who needs applause for taking this data mining and profiling situation seriously.
But as you say, it is time that those in power who are expected to uphold the laws of the land stopped this tail chasing and started to apply the existing legislation thereby protecting peoples on-line privacy.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by popper (Post 34584344)

[URL]
{snip}
http://www.out-law.com//default.aspx?page=9208
{snip}

Also in there Popper :-

Quote:

Kuneva expressed concern about the targeting of adverts in what might be interpreted as a reference to recent controversy over Phorm, an advertising technology firm.

"If you watch tennis over the internet, you will be targeted with ads for tennis items. If you read about home improvement, chances are that you will receive ads for repair services and new furniture," she said. "But there are some concerns that the amounts of personal data collected over the internet without the awareness of users, let alone their consent, is getting too large and a bit out of control."

"The European Data Protection Supervisor has stated that our current legislation requires explicit consent each time personal data is collected. The reality on internet is far removed from these principles," she said.

Kuneva continued: "Currently many websites offer to click for 'enhanced services'. Is this an informed consent? How many people actually know that this amounts to consent to having their behaviour tracked, to have that data stored and then used commercially? What would be fair terms in an agreement to allow tracking? Publishers currently have privacy policies that allow the installation of tracking devices that are not themselves covered by their privacy policy. Is this a fair term? I believe that informed consent is the central issue that consumer policy must next address."

"I want to step up our work to develop core consumer principles that feed into policy across sectors and technologies delivering a more consistent approach the conditions surrounding tracking and profiling," she said.

EDIT : icsys, you beat me to it :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

would it be possible to block places that buy ad space for their goods on phorm,
or a ad blocker to intercept the ad and follow the link and then block it end of.?