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Maggy 06-07-2020 09:16
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36042499)
Defund the police.
Wasn't talking to you..

nomadking 06-07-2020 09:34
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36042498)
Eh? Proof?Links?:confused:
Link

Quote:
My heart also breaks for Dave Patrick Underwood, a black officer in the Federal Protective Service who was shot while guarding an Oakland, Calif., federal courthouse during the unrest in his city.

...
My heart also breaks for David Dorn, a retired African American police captain who was killed in St. Louis while protecting a friend’s pawnshop from looters.

...
My heart breaks for Chris Beaty, an African American former offensive lineman for Indiana University, who was shot dead in an alley in Indianapolis after leaving a demonstration that had turned violent. My heart breaks for Italia Marie Kelly, a 22-year-old black woman in Davenport, Iowa, who was shot in the back while getting into her car, trying to escape a protest that had turned into a riot.
Link

Quote:
A 16-year-old boy was killed and a younger teenager was wounded early Monday in Seattle’s “occupied” protest zone — the second deadly shooting in the area that local officials have vowed to change after business complaints and criticism from President Donald Trump.
The violence that came just over a week after another shooting in the zone left one person dead and another wounded was “dangerous and unacceptable” police Chief Carmen Best said.
Article not accessible in the EU.

ianch99 06-07-2020 09:55
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36042320)
There is no need to apologise at all any more than Italy needs to apologise for Roman pillage etc. Every thing evolves. It’ a stupid woke concept.

As regards how the ex-colonised view matters, they are the subject of corrupt and cruel governments and the demand, if any, for compensation comes from those very same corrupted politicians. I’m generalusing because there are minor exceptions.

As regards foreign aid, it has been mis-spent especially when seen in the context of what needs sorting out in the UK.
You're having fun with your new word. You think invading countries, subjugating their people and exploiting their resources is just part of "evolving" and so is legitimate? Strange moral compass you have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36042344)
The "colonial powers" were last into slavery, and FIRST out. In Africa, slaves were taken by Black people. Slavery existed in Africa long before the White slave traders turned up. If anything it is the FACT that slavery existed before, that gave the White slave traders the idea in the first place. Not really much evidence around that time in White "western" societies of slavery, before visiting Africa.
Another strange moral position: the Africans were doing it already so where's the problem if we just join in and help ourselves? Also, Indentured servitude, a step not much removed from slavery, was a common practice in Europe and the New World:

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Indentured_servitude

Quote:
An indentured servant or indentured laborer is an employee (indenturee) within a system of unfree labor who is bound by a signed or forced contract (indenture) to work without pay for the owner of the indenture for a period of time. The contract often lets the employer sell the labor of an indenturee to a third party. Indenturees usually enter into an indenture for a specific payment or other benefit (such as transportation to a new place), or to meet a legal obligation, such as debt bondage. On completion of the contract, indentured servants were given their freedom, and occasionally plots of land. Indentured servitude was often brutal, with a high percentage[vague] of servants dying prior to the expiration of their indentures. In many countries, systems of indentured labor have now been outlawed, and are banned by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as a form of slavery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36042345)
I don't think it is for us to apologise for the acts of our forefathers. That's pretty pathetic. Maybe we should tell the Italians to apologise to us for the Roman Invasion and for the atrocities inflicted on British people ordered by Emperor Claudius. The whole idea of apologising for our history is farcical, to say the least.

As for the Foreign Aid programme, there are not many who would begrudge disaster relief, but you must know very well that a huge amount is wasted. That is what we object to.
Another one for "well, what about the Romans?" If you didn't use such ridiculous comparisons, you might be able to debate the point. As this is an Internal forum, we need to involve WWII so let's ask this question: should the German people feel guilty and apologise for the actions of the Nazi Party?

Ah you say, Great Britain was nothing like the Nazi's so the comparison is invalid and of course, we're British after all. But the Germans invaded sovereign countries and we never .. ok, maybe we did. The Germans plundered the wealth & resources of the conquered and we never .. ok, maybe we did. And So On ..

If it is wrong, it is wrong. There are degrees of wrong but they are still wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36042346)
Absolutely. Why would anyone apologise for something 200+ years ago, over which they had zero control. The whole idea is nonsense..
I was not just referring to the issue of Slavery rather the consequence of having a colonial past.

nomadking 06-07-2020 10:54
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
If you're going to criticise the "colonial powers", then you MUST criticise those who not only at the SAME time, but BEFORE and AFTER, actually facilitated all of it. Without those Black African others, the "colonial powers" would never been involved in any way. It wouldn't have even occurred to them. The "colonial powers" DIDN'T enslave them, Black Africans did. Perhaps all that should be taught as part of Black history.


A seven year old girl killed in Chicago, along with an eight year old girl in Atlanta. Bet they feel proud.:mad:

heero_yuy 06-07-2020 11:09
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Quote from The Sun: A figurehead of the Black Lives Matter movement who has given speeches alongside Star Wars actor John Boyega believes the campaign has been "hijacked" by a group of far-Left activists.

Imarn Ayton, 29, said she organised the Black Lives Matter protest in London's Parliament Square on June 6 and a peaceful rally in Hyde Park on June 20.

In an outspoken attack, she vented her fury at Black Lives Matter UK, the campaign group that has attracted more than £1m in donations.

Black Lives Matter UK has supported defunding the police, overthrowing capitalism and "targeted sanctions against Israel's apartheid regime".

Actress Imarn told the Mail on Sunday: "The Black Lives Matter movement is a separate entity to Black Lives Matter UK. I have no contact with Black Lives Matter UK and they have not been on the ground once.

"A lot of people assume they were the driving force behind the protest when in actual fact they just support the protests.

"The issue with BLM UK is they have not revealed themselves, they have not been transparent. They are abolitionists, they believe in the removal of prisons, smashing capitalism and abolishing the police."

Black Lives Matter UK was formed in 2016 but rose to prominence this year after the death of George Floyd in the US and a campaign in Britain to tear down statues of figures linked to slavery or colonialism.

A crowdfunding campaign launched by the group on June 2 has raised £1.1 million.
Looks like anarchists.

Sephiroth 06-07-2020 11:10
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36042530)
If you're going to criticise the "colonial powers", then you MUST criticise those who not only at the SAME time, but BEFORE and AFTER, actually facilitated all of it. Without those Black African others, the "colonial powers" would never been involved in any way. It wouldn't have even occurred to them. The "colonial powers" DIDN'T enslave them, Black Africans did. Perhaps all that should be taught as part of Black history.
... not to mention the Arabs who don't give a fig about anyone else, especially infidels.

ianch is so damn woke that he can't take a common sense view. The past is the past and it is the present and future that matters.

Btw, just to put the proverbial spanner into ianch's works, places like Zimbabwe, dare I say, Kenya, Rwanda and similar ilk would thrive if they were under benevolent British administration. Of course they wouldn't stand for it - the leaders would be deprived of their corrupt gains.

In ianch's world, all statues of people deemed to have been connected with past practices that are deprecated by the woke lot, will be torn down; the Queen's head would have to come off stamps because here grandfather was an arch colonialist.

We have bigger problems to face like how long it will take at present ethnic birth rates before we all have to face east. Start worrying.

https://tribune.com.pk/story/1665803...ports-guardian

Quote:
According to Bullivant, many young Europeans “will have been baptised and then never darken the door of a church again. Cultural religious identities just aren’t being passed on from parents to children. It just washes straight off them.”

The figures for the UK were partly explained by high immigration, he added. “One in five Catholics in the UK were not born in the UK.

“And we know the Muslim birthrate is higher than the general population, and they have much higher [religious] retention rates.”

OLD BOY 06-07-2020 12:15
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36042521)

Another one for "well, what about the Romans?" If you didn't use such ridiculous comparisons, you might be able to debate the point. As this is an Internal forum, we need to involve WWII so let's ask this question: should the German people feel guilty and apologise for the actions of the Nazi Party?

Ah you say, Great Britain was nothing like the Nazi's so the comparison is invalid and of course, we're British after all. But the Germans invaded sovereign countries and we never .. ok, maybe we did. The Germans plundered the wealth & resources of the conquered and we never .. ok, maybe we did. And So On ..

If it is wrong, it is wrong. There are degrees of wrong but they are still wrong.
It is not a ridiculous comparison. The Roman invasion of Britain happened. So did slavery. Both are in the past and cannot be changed, that was my point.

The German people apologise for Hitler? No, they shouldn't - the current generation was not born during his time, so why should they?

I don't disagree with your last paragraph - of course the events we are discussing were wrong. But for this generation to apologise for the misdeeds of previous generations is just nuts. Nowt to do with me, guv.

nomadking 06-07-2020 12:17
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
The Black African involvement in slavery didn't happen in a different era. It cannot be dismissed in the same manner as slavery under the Romans. The Black African involvement led to the "colonial power" involvement, not the other way around.


Perhaps Saint Patrick's Day should be banned, as the Irish kidnapped and sold him into slavery. :D

Maggy 06-07-2020 12:21
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36042517)
Link


Link


Article not accessible in the EU.
2 links I cannot access and the 3rd doesn't prove your point at all.

nomadking 06-07-2020 12:45
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36042540)
2 links I cannot access and the 3rd doesn't prove your point at all.
I managed to access the first 2 links. That is how I was able to include quotes from the articles. Unless you're saying I made them up. Plenty of other articles out there about the same and other events.

BBC
Quote:
A teenager has been killed and another critically wounded in a shooting in Seattle's autonomous zone.
One teenager, 16, was fatally shot and died after being taken to hospital. The other victim, 14, is in intensive care.
Daily Mirror
Quote:
A retired police officer has been shot dead while defending a friend's store from 'looting' amid unrest in the United States.
Former police captain David Dorn died in a pool of blood on a pavement in St Louis on Tuesday morning as protests erupted around the states.

pip08456 06-07-2020 13:35
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36042540)
2 links I cannot access and the 3rd doesn't prove your point at all.
"These are the 13 people who have died since George Floyd protests started last week

Calvin L. Horton Jr., a 43-year-old black man, was fatally shot outside of a pawn shop in Minneapolis a week ago, apparently the first killing in the unrest. The pawn shop was looted, and the store’s owner was arrested and jailed following the shooting, according to The Star Tribune newspaper.


Javar Harrell, a 21-year-old black man, was shot and killed while sitting in a car amid protests in downtown Detroit on Friday, according to WJBK.
Dave Patrick Underwood, a black 53-year-old federal officer, was shot and killed during a protest in Oakland, Calif., on Friday night, according to the FBI. Underwood was securing a U.S. courthouse.
Cops said a man died after getting caught by the wheel of a FedEx truck and then dragged in St. Louis amid the city’s protests Saturday morning, KMOV reported.
Chris Beaty, a 38-year-old former Indiana University offensive lineman, was killed Saturday night in Indianapolis. Beaty, who was black, was nicknamed “Mr. Indianapolis.” Indiana football coach Tom Allen said in a statement, “His passion for life and Indiana Football energized me every time we were together.”
James Scurlock, a 22-year-old black man, was fatally shot Saturday during a struggle with a white bar owner in Omaha, Neb., authorities said. No charges were filed against the owner. Nicholas Harden, Scurlock’s brother, said he had “a heart of gold” and was “trying to protect people’s lives,” according to KMTV. Harden called for further investigation into the case.
Dorian Murrell, a black 18-year-old, was killed in Indianapolis Sunday morning amid the protests. “We’re going through a lot because he was like the glue that held us together,” said Dorian’s brother, Armon Mathis, according to WXIN. A 29-year-old suspect was arrested.
David McAtee, the black 53-year-old owner of a barbecue joint in Louisville, was shot and killed by the police just after midnight Monday at his business. McAtee’s mother told The Daily Beast that the beloved cook would feed cops for free. The police chief in the city was terminated after it was discovered that officers’ body cameras were off at the time of the shooting. Louisville police said McAtee fired shots outside his business the night he died.
Italia Kelly, 22, was fatally shot while leaving a protest in Davenport, Iowa, early Monday. "She was always smiling, always laughing. That’s why it’s so sad that she was taken in such a violent way,” said Amy Hale, Kelly’s aunt, according to The AP.
Another person, who was not identified, was shot to death and found in Davenport, according to cops.
Two people were killed Monday in protests in the suburban Chicago town of Cicero, a town official reported. Their identities weren’t immediately released.
David Dorn, a retired St. Louis police captain, was fatally shot in St. Louis at a pawn shop, authorities said Tuesday. The Ethical Society of Police, which represents black officers in the city, said in a tweet, “He was murdered by looters at a pawnshop. He was the type of brother that would’ve given his life to save them if he had to.”

Hugh 06-07-2020 14:11
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36042499)
Defund the police.
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgo...it-have-merit/
Quote:
"Defund the police” means reallocating or redirecting funding away from the police department to other government agencies funded by the local municipality. That’s it. It’s that simple. Defund does not mean abolish policing. And, even some who say abolish, do not necessarily mean to do away with law enforcement altogether. Rather, they want to see the rotten trees of policing chopped down and fresh roots replanted anew. Camden, New Jersey, is a good example. Nearly a decade ago, Camden disbanded (abolished) its police force and dissolved the local police union. This approach seems to be what Minneapolis will do in some form, though the nuances are important.

Different from abolishing and starting anew, defunding police highlights fiscal responsibility, advocates for a market-driven approach to taxpayer money, and has some potential benefits that will reduce police violence and crime...

... WHAT DEFUNDING LOOKS LIKE

In recent weeks, some large municipalities with a history of police brutality have reallocated funds in line with the defund police movement. Los Angeles will have at least $100 million reallocated away from LAPD to programs for minority communities. San Francisco Mayor London Breed said that she will work with community groups to reprioritize funding. Baltimore City Council voted to reallocate $22 million away from the police department’s fiscal budget for 2021, which is typically over $500 million. The city council plans to redirect the funding to recreational centers, trauma centers, and forgivable loans for Black-owned businesses. Prince George’s County, Maryland, aims to reallocate $20 million away from a new training facility for its police department (though the money will not come out of the police department’s budget) and to remove student resource officers from schools. Other areas, such as Minneapolis, have advocated for removing police officers from schools as well.

Altogether, it is clear that municipalities across the U.S. are making changes in line with the defund police movement. So, while the word “reallocate” may be a more palatable, digestible word on the House floor or at a city council meeting, “defund” surely gets more attention on a protest sign. And more importantly, it seems to be having an impact.

downquark1 06-07-2020 14:15
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
This is utter bullshit. You can't make a political statement that sounds like the complete opposite of what you actually mean and then get to patronisingly explain what you ACTUALLY meant by this. This is the opposite of good communication and as I have said is only there to agitate people.

Paul 06-07-2020 19:46
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Different from abolishing and starting anew, defunding police highlights fiscal responsibility, advocates for a market-driven approach to taxpayer money, and has some potential benefits that will reduce police violence and crime...
Totally meaningless nonsense.
What "Benefits" ? How will it reduce violence and crime ?

Quote:
Los Angeles will have at least $100 million reallocated away from LAPD to programs for minority communities. San Francisco Mayor London Breed said that she will work with community groups to reprioritize funding. Baltimore City Council voted to reallocate $22 million away from the police department’s fiscal budget for 2021, which is typically over $500 million. The city council plans to redirect the funding to recreational centers, trauma centers, and forgivable loans for Black-owned businesses.
What about programs for the Majority ?
What about loans for non black owned businesses ?
So much for equal opportunities and tackling racism eh, this is just reverse racism, again.

1andrew1 06-07-2020 20:08
Re: Black Lives Matter
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 36042572)
This is utter bullshit. You can't make a political statement that sounds like the complete opposite of what you actually mean and then get to patronisingly explain what you ACTUALLY meant by this. This is the opposite of good communication and as I have said is only there to agitate people.
Crass and confusing as it is, politicians and lobby groups have been doing this for years. They can get away with it as political advertising is not regulated.


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