Cable Forum - Brexit (Old)

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Re: Brexit Discussion (Follow First Post Rules!)

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Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35960659)

Even the non-binding ones?

And considering we’ve only had 3 nationwide referendums in the U.K., not really a lot of precedent...

There are no binding ones - constitutionally. It’s not possible. You are however (perhaps deliberately) ignoring the very powerful moral obligation of Parliament to do what has been committed to by manifesto, and yes, by referendum. I know there’s not a lot of precedent, hence my use of the phrase “limited precedent” ;)

Re: Brexit Discussion (Follow First Post Rules!)

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Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35960661)

There are no binding ones - constitutionally. It’s not possible. You are however (perhaps deliberately) ignoring the very powerful moral obligation of Parliament to do what has been committed to by manifesto, and yes, by referendum. I know there’s not a lot of precedent, hence my use of the phrase “limited precedent” ;)

https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...-queens-speech

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7 Tory manifesto pledges quietly dropped in the Queen's Speech

2017 Manifesto omissions, tbf, number 5 has happened.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...as-implemented

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2010 manifesto pledges not met by 2015

1) Emergency budget within 50 days of election to help pay down the bulk of the deficit.
Not met – The emergency budget took place but the deficit has only fallen by around a third. It has only halved as a proportion of national income.

5) Consumer Protection Agency to address high levels of personal debt.
Not met – This is still under the remit of the new Financial Conduct Authority.

6) Smaller class sizes.
Not met – Average primary school class sizes are up from around 26 to 27 pupils.

10) Pay off the student loans of maths and science graduates who become teachers.
Not met – This does not seem to have happened and the TES reports that the Tories are looking at it again.

Health
1) Scrap waiting-list targets.
Partially met –The target of a GP appointment within 48 hours was scrapped. The target of 98% of A&E patients being seen within four hours was replaced with a 95% target.

2) New 24/7 urgent care service and weekend access to GPs.
Not met – This is now being promised again by the Conservatives.

3) Stop closures of A&E and maternity wards.
Not met – Of 29 hospitals with wards under threat before the election, 14 of the hospitals have seen casualty and maternity units closed, downgraded, or still at risk of closure, according to a Labour analysis.

2) Instant grounding orders for antisocial youngsters.
Not met – Home secretary Theresa May scrapped the asbo and introduced something called the community trigger – requiring police to investigate any single incident reported by at least five people.

3) Prison sentences for carrying a knife.
Not met – This was the subject of a coalition row and blocked by the Lib Dems. An amendment passed by a backbench Tory introduces a mandatory jail term for those caught carrying a knife on the second offence but it is unclear when this will come into force.

7) Abstinence-based drug rehabilitation orders.
Not met – This idea, championed by work and pensions secretary Iain Duncan Smith, was shelved in 2010.

9) Human Rights Act to be replaced by British Bill of Rights.
Not met – This never happened after a commission failed to agree how it would be implemented. It is, however, likely to make a reappearance in the 2015 manifesto.

10) Annual limit on non-EU economic migrants.
Not met – Non-EU migration has fallen but there is no formal limit.

11) Overseas students at new or unregistered institutions to pay bond on arrival.
Not met – Home secretary Theresa May had a plan to make all immigrants pay bonds but this was blocked by the Lib Dems.

2) Conservative government will freeze council tax for two years.
Partially met – The government could not force local authorities to freeze council tax but offered incentives for them not to. A large proportion turned down the cash.

3) Ending tax credits for households earning more than £50,000.
Not met – There were a lot of benefit cuts but this was not one of them.

4) Set up a new permanent military command for homeland defence and security.
Not met – This does not seem to have happened although the military has played a significant role in domestic events such as the floods and security around the Olympics.

5) Cut MoD running costs by 25%.
Not met – In August 2010, then defence secretary Liam Fox only unveiled cuts of between 10% and 20%.

The environment
1) To make the UK “the world’s first low-carbon economy”, including becoming a world leader in green goods and services.
Not met – Britain is the around the sixth in the field but experts have warned output is faltering.

8) Local authorities could pay people to recycle.
Not met – No evidence of this found.

2015 manifesto pledges not met

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...ories-10371384

Re: Brexit Discussion (Follow First Post Rules!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35960687)

https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...-queens-speech 2017 Manifesto omissions, tbf, number 5 has happened.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...as-implemented

2015 manifesto pledges not met

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...ories-10371384

Fair point, and any half decent opposition would have made mincemeat of the government for that litany of failures. But, I think it says more about the opposition than it does about the moral duty of Parliament, that that list is so long and yet nobody is talking about it. Or perhaps it is simply that Brexit, which was in the manifesto, is such an imperative that everybody is focusing on that to the exclusion of all else.

Re: Brexit Discussion (Follow First Post Rules!)

It's only ever going to be Brexit. From now until the end of time. There will never not be Brexit. If there was a second referendum by far the best argument Remain would have is that you wouldn't hear about it again.

Re: Brexit Discussion (Follow First Post Rules!)

Yay, no more credit and debit card surcharges, better fraud protection and an end to money being blocked on your card - https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizen...s/index_en.htm

Oh.

Re: Brexit Discussion (Follow First Post Rules!)

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Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35960751)

Yay, no more credit and debit card surcharges, better fraud protection and an end to money being blocked on your card - https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizen...s/index_en.htm

Oh.

Sorry ... what?

Re: Brexit Discussion (Follow First Post Rules!)

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Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35960640)

Things would have been better if the leaflet (and leave campaigns) said what you think the leaflet said. They're not and it didn't.

Did or did not, the leaflet say we would leave all European institutions?

Re: Brexit Discussion (Follow First Post Rules!)

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Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35960761)

Sorry ... what?

New EU directives on payments coming in stopping credit card surcharges, etc.

Re: Brexit Discussion (Follow First Post Rules!)

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Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35960764)

New EU directives on payments coming in stopping credit card surcharges, etc.

I understood that. Your point, however, is obscure.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)

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Originally Posted by djfunkdup (Post 35960601)

Get your head round it because i agree with him 100%.Things are moving along at a nice rate of knots,Onwards and Upwards :)

Umm...okay.

So say no deal is agreed. Parliament refuses to okay / approve that. The UK does not leave the EU then as no agreement / lack there of is approved by Parliament.

Then what?

The UK still remains a member state of the EU and enough votes in Westminster plus votes in EU capitals etc will assure that Britain stays in.

Even the most ardent of leavers know that will be the case.

May needs to find a deal, and knows that she can't.

Re: Brexit Discussion (Follow First Post Rules!)

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Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35960770)

I understood that. Your point, however, is obscure.

his point was we not be protected from that once we leave

Re: Brexit Discussion (Follow First Post Rules!)

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Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35958560)

The simple answer is that the electorate voted to leave. That means we either leave with a deal with the EU which does not impact on our ability to forge new trade deals or we leave under WTO rules. That's how it works. No point in nit-picking, we just have to get on and do it.

Wow, you even use her catchphrases. (Job to be gotten on with / to be getting on with etc etc).

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What exactly do you perceive to be wrong with the Chequers deal, or are you just relying on the reaction of the Brexiteers?

Okay let's try this the other way round, you tell us what you like about the thing.

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The only thing about it that bothers me is the 'common rulebook' because I can't make out if that would only apply to goods to and from the EU or whether it would apply to all trade that we do with other countries as well.

Never mind the fact that even though the 4 principles of the EU are indivisible, May thought that she would give it a go anyway. (Leave the CET but align on goods, not services or people, but wants the freedom of zero tariffs plus her ability to strike trade deals etc).

Some people have an inability to take no for an answer.

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If the former, this is just like any comprehensive trade deal we might enter into with any country. If the latter, it is unacceptable.

By whose metrics? (Assuming that you are not judge and jury here). How ignoble of you to give your blessing to the former, though.

Re: Brexit Discussion (Follow First Post Rules!)

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Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35960785)

his point was we not be protected from that once we leave

This essentially. The parent page of the link I posted earlier is a nice guide to consumer rights covered by EU law - https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizen...s/index_en.htm Includes mobile roaming, VAT, warranties, net neutrality, etc.

Clearly, we could grandfather in existing regulations but new ones like the card charges are coming in all the time

Re: Brexit Discussion (Follow First Post Rules!)

The Government can choose to implement those protections in UK law too, it's important that we continue to hold them to account on things like that. I sorta worry the Brexiters will demand those protections are revoked as a matter of principle/to wind up remainers and Remainers will let it happen so they can blame leaving the EU.

Re: Brexit Discussion (Follow First Post Rules!)

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Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35960824)

But how would we "hold them to account" exactly? The current Tory party is sliding more to the right and is now, via the ERG string pulling, aligning us with a free market, low tax and deregulated future.

It is exactly the reason why, on this subject, leaving the EU is a mistake. If all you have here is hope in the Government, backed up by the ability to "hold them to account" then I feel you are on a hiding to nothing.