Re: Brexit
 

What is really the point of going back to the same arguments as several years ago?

Re: Brexit
 

In our defence, Parliament is doing the same. It’s inevitable everyone will be at a future referendum at best or a general election at worst.

This Government simply will not last til March 29th unless it changes course. The Brexit at all costs brigade know this, which is why we are seeing the threatening behaviour, violence, intimidation and more vociferous language in the discourse.

Re: Brexit
 

May plans high stakes strategy:

Re: Brexit
 

I've just watched a party political broadcast by the conservative party wonder if it's part of the strategy.

Re: Brexit
 

This would be magnificent.

Welcome to your brand new socialist eutopia. A general election in the middle of food shortages, queues at the ports, chaos at airports is an act of mass suicide by the Conservative Party.

Re: Brexit
 

A General Election needs permission from Parliament though.

Re: Brexit
 

It's just parliamentary democracy,and we all want that don't we.

---------- Post added at 18:54 ---------- Previous post was at 18:50 ----------

I think the speaker just ripped up the rule book
it could be any thing that clogs up the works

Marmite love it/ hate it .

Re: Brexit
 

Looks like remainer MPs aren't the only ones to use parliamentary shenanigans.

Re: Brexit
 

Yeah but it’s not at all clear how this plan works. You need parliament to vote for it

Re: Brexit
 

Meanwhile in the real world 300 Conservative MPs would quite like to keep their jobs. Well, most. Some will of course be happy to go to the private sector like George Osbourne.

---------- Post added at 19:03 ---------- Previous post was at 19:02 ----------

Never let the facts get in the way of a Brexit dream.

Re: Brexit
 

When push comes to shove, I wonder if m/any Tory MP's feel so strongly about this that they would be prepared to actually let their Government fall??

Re: Brexit
 

There's about 20 of them, which is enough. :)

Re: Brexit
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-46810637

Re: Brexit
 

Sounds like a Tory graph reader. Their comments section full of threats and hate. It doesn't seem moderated at all.

Re: Brexit
 

Someone is going to die as a result of all the hate and venom unless the Government takes responsibility instead of dragging this out.

Re: Brexit
 

Lets hope these unhinged nutters are brought to book.

Re: Brexit
 

You would think it would be easy to get away with destroying democracy after all it was so easily won .

Re: Brexit
 

The criminal investigations into Leave.EU's source of funds haven't been concluded yet, so let's not jump to any hasty conclusions.

Re: Brexit
 

Nothing to do with what i posted.

Re: Brexit
 

Did you even read the article?

Strange as it may seem, disagreeing with you does not equate to "destroying democracy".

Language like that spurs extremists on, making them think that violence is an acceptable alternative.

Re: Brexit
 

When i need your opinion i'll ask for it

Re: Brexit
 

Bless... nice try :o:

Re: Brexit
 

All you had to say is no, I didn't read the article, no need to get shirty about it.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Corbyn has already stated that he prefers a general election to a second referendum. It would be pretty difficult for him to whip his MPs against it.

To be honest, even though Parliament now technically has control of the timing of elections, if asked, how could any leader of the opposition be seen to be running away from one?

Re: Brexit
 

An election in early April doesn’t solve the problem for Brexiteers.

After a week of chaos a new Government elected by landslide could in theory negotiate EEA, Norway or similar deal with the EU (perhaps even reinstating freedom of movement). With five years in Government before anyone can do anything about it. The Labour Party are a membership driven party after all...

Re: Brexit
 

What makes you think people will stomach a democratic process, when one they voted on two years ago is getting thwarted, there will be a mass boycott of the electorate and quite rightly !!!

Former House Speaker, Baroness Betty Boothroyd was reportedly overheard in the corridors of Parliament today, saying Bercow’s actions were “disgusting” and an “absolute and utter disgrace”.

I do miss Betty, the current occupant of the seat is an odious little cretin.

Re: Brexit
 

You yourself said the strongest action you will take is abstain from voting. People can put up with a lot. Rather versatile in times of adversity.

Re: Brexit
 

They will not tolerate living in a dictatorship and their democratic will being thwarted. Something you are selfishly happy to see. :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit
 

I’m not being selfish. Crash out into recession is financially the best thing that could happen to me.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

That's just Negative Remainer fantasy. How many times do I have to say, there is huge financial potential with the prospect of 90%, yes that's 90% of future trade growth with the WORLD, you know the bit outside of the Corrupted, cancerous EU which is just 10% and declining!!!! ???

Re: Brexit
 

I think there are enough Remainers, or at least people who want a deal before leaving, in Parliament that will prevent her from doing via the Fixed Terms Parliament act, remember she'll need Tories to back her in that case too.

If I've done the maths right they will need 434 votes to call an election. (2/3s of 650, abstentions still count).

All opposition MPs = 333. Leaving 101 Tory MPs needed assuming every single other MP votes for the election and that's a bit unlikely IMO if this the obviously the game that they perceive May to be playing. Liberal Democrats could abstain? More Tories needed. SNP abstain? More still and so on.

Would over 100 Tories MPs be willing to detonate themselves in such a fashion? To facilitate a no deal Brexit and possibly hand it over to Corbyn?

Instead I think they would try a vote of no confidence but that doesn't get the delay you would need since in that circumstance someone else could form a government which I think would happen if only to delay Article 50 before calling the actual General Election again.

Re: Brexit
 

Nothing to stop us doing business with China, India, Vietnam, etc at the moment.

Re: Brexit
 

Yet nobody has presented a plan to realise this potential? Indeed, if we leave with Norway model or May’s deal we may not be able to negotiate such deals at all.

The key to “smooth” WTO transition is to reduce tariffs to zero unilaterally, which means we have no bargaining chips for our exports.

As I’ve said before Brexit requires a five year plan at minimum. However we both know it’s about freedom of movement and not economics. So the point is moot.

Re: Brexit
 

Wrong, we need EU consent and it can take years.

Re: Brexit
 

Why don't you ask the person who made this assertion rather than the one who queried how it can be verified. :mad:

Re: Brexit
 

Wrong I'm afraid Mick. For example, we have a growing trade with Vietnam and are encouraging an EU free trade deal with that country - a key constituent of the 90% you mention.
https://www.gov.uk/government/speech...-relationships

Re: Brexit
 

I literally imported a mobile from China last month all by myself. How does the EU prevent trade with China? Yes I’d to pay import duty - is there any indication the post Brexit eutopia will change that?

Re: Brexit
 

No I’m not wrong. We cannot set up our own trade deals, unless we leave the EU. This is an old argument done to death.

Re: Brexit
 

He said “do business”. The second biggest trade partner of the EU is China.

You interpreted that as “have a separate trade deal from the EU”. Which is a different thing.

Re: Brexit
 

I stand by what I said. We need to leave the EU to do trade deals.

---------- Post added at 23:28 ---------- Previous post was at 23:22 ----------

Drop the angry face, no need for it FFS. I am here you know... Why don’t you verify the duff info you keep coming up with first, that we will be worse off, btw negative Remainer forcasts are not evidence.

Re: Brexit
 

No one's disagreeing with that.

Re: Brexit
 

The politics of this are toxic in Scotland. Scottish Labour would have an absolute field day with the idea of the SNP keeping the Tories in power when they had the chance to kick them out in an election.

Re: Brexit
 

Here's another way proposed of solving the Brexit stalemate: A Citizens' Assembly. Time's not on our side for this solution and the country may be too divided but on paper it looks a better idea than a new election or People's Vote.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...exit-explainer

Re: Brexit
 

Having read the latest attacks, counter attacks and general childish behaviour in this topic, its really time everyone learned to calm down.

To that effect, today is Cable Forum Brexit Holiday Day.

This topic is closed for one day.

Everyone go and calm down and enjoy something instead of bickering and attcking each other.

Re: Brexit
 

Since I wont be around for a few hours, the holiday is now lifted.

The continuation of the childish behavior, and attacking each other, will not be tolerated.
Since Christmas is now over, the Sanity Clause will be extended as a kind of Winter Break instead.

Anyone who continues to act in a childish manner will get a "timeout".
You will be suspended from any posting for 1 day (first time), then 3 days, then a week.
Should you not learn after 3 timeouts, a fourth time will see you banned from Cable Forum.

Note: This applies across the forum, not just this topic.

Re: Brexit
 

Well fancy that, Channel 4 (Which has history for showing bias towards Remaining in the EU), last night had a Youth town hall kind of debate about you know what, and the question popped up to the young audience, would you want a second vote, less than half of them put their hand up.

There are Remainers in the audience who don't want a second referendum, because it makes a mockery of the democratic process.

You can watch it on Youtube here:-

Re: Brexit
 

Not a direct correlation to above, however

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/06/brit...um---poll.html

More Britons want to remain a member of the European Union than leave, according to a survey published on Sunday which also showed voters want to make the final decision themselves.

Britain is due leave the EU on March 29, but Prime Minister Theresa May is struggling to get her exit deal approved by parliament, opening up huge uncertainty over whether a deal is possible.

The survey by polling firm YouGov showed that if a referendum were held immediately, 46 percent would vote to remain, 39 percent would vote to leave, and the rest either did not know, would not vote, or refused to answer the question.

Published 8:46 AM ET Sun, 6 Jan 2019 Updated 8:54 AM ET Sun, 6 Jan 2019

Having said that, ALL statistics on this can't be trusted.

Re: Brexit
 

According to the slippery Jeremy Hunt he claims the Commons votes this week have made staying in the EU more likely but one detects he is manoeuvring himself into a position for the top job sometime in the future.

Re: Brexit
 

Oily snake Gove will beat him to it, and stick a knife in his back ! Neither give a toss about Brexit, but care a lot about themselves.

Re: Brexit
 

Indeed Gove has previous history as we know and a leopard never changes his spots.

Re: Brexit
 

Taken from https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46832808

"We're going to get smashed" - one government insider's apocalyptic prediction about one of the most important votes in recent political history.

IF this is general consensus, what can May do? No Deal is not going to happen. Mays deal looks like it will be heavily rejected.

Corbyn wants to have a GE but would need to extend A50 to be able to 'attempt' to renegotiate (Personally I can't see the EU moving one inch)

Re: Brexit
 

May has been contacting union leaders to try and garner support for her deal:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46817503

Re: Brexit
 

@alexwickham
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Conservative MEPs have been summoned to Downing Street to meet the PM... No10 source says it's a regular meeting but MEPs are speculating about an extension to Article 50 meaning they would have to stand in the May Euro elections...

Re: Brexit
 

The enemy of my enemy is my friend as the old saying goes...

Re: Brexit
 

Voting down Brexit deal risks cancelling Brexit, says Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt

https://news.sky.com/story/voting-do...etary-11604297

first cabinet minister admitting MPs can block a no deal brexit

Re: Brexit
 

MPs can block no deal if they vote for something else. It's the something else that's been the problem.

People are playing a game of risk here. Brexiters are risking leaving at all by letting the process fly up in the air giving an opening for Remainers to reorder the pieces before they fall whereas Remainers are risking crashing at with no deal in the hope they can stop the entire thing.

At the moment it's technically possible for this to all be cancelled without much issue. Even with May's deal if the Brexit date passes then we're out. Even if the Remainiest of Remain governments takes over it would require a reapplication to get back in. If I were a Leaver I would be more concerned about getting across the finish line than worry too much about the backstop.

Re: Brexit
 

totally agree well gonna be interesting day on Tuesday when she loses vote then she got 3 days to have a plan b

Re: Brexit
 

He's only saying that to get MPs in to line and scare them in to voting for May's deal.

A Senior Clark of the House who knows the Commons Parliamentary procedure to the letter and says there is no move Parliament can make to force a stop to no deal Brexit, would not matter if MPs held a vote or any number of votes, the fundamental principle remains, a Bill would have to be presented by the Executive, that's the Government of the day, to change the Statute that is in place, remember, a new statute can only overrule statute.. No amount of pushing for votes or amendments will alter the current law.

That law shows the clock is ticking, we leave the EU on 29th March.

Parliament cannot dictate to the Minister of the Crown, to cancel or retract Article 50 regardless of how many votes they have.

Re: Brexit
 

Will she do what she did last time and call off the parliamentary vote at the last minute knowing she is facing a heavy defeat..

Re: Brexit
 

That's not true - as I said above - there is no move parliament can make to stop it, it's the law. We leave EU on 29th March with or without a deal.

Re: Brexit
 

Parliament makes the law. If it wanted to, it could change it. It may have to bring down the government to do so obviously.

Re: Brexit
 

parliament can change law and retract article 50 as court said not saying they will just saying they can

Re: Brexit
 

And Downing Street today has ruled out extending or retracting Article 50.

---------- Post added at 13:18 ---------- Previous post was at 13:16 ----------

There is no majority in the house to bring down the Government. DUP will still support Tories and no current rebellious Tory MP would be stupid enough to vote against it's own government. This is why Jeremy Corbyn has not declared a full no confidence motion in the PM as of yet.

Re: Brexit
 

I am not saying it's going to happen only theoretically possible. It all depends what happens I think. Remember you wouldn't need much of a rebellion to bringing down the Government and some Tory MPs might conclude their careers are over anyway: Ken Clarke, Anna Soubry, Nick Boles, Dominic Grieve and Sarah Wollaston are all possibilities for stepping down or deselection anyway. All are against no deal too.

Re: Brexit
 

Exactly.

A few years ago the Public Sector Unions went to court as the Govt. had broken the law in downgrading their pensions. The Unions won the case, but then the Govt. just changed the law, went back to court and then obviously won !

Re: Brexit
 

the thing is Mick parliament has took control of brexit we see what she comes up with when her deal loses vote on Tuesday

Re: Brexit
 

Yes but pointing out what Parliament *theoretically* has the power to do is unhelpful. You’re suggesting that Parliament has the luxury of making its own choice on its own terms. That is not the case.

Parliament makes law, but does so according to a timetable mostly controlled by the Government, owing to its controlling majority of the House of Commons.

Parliament has the power to revoke Article 50, but because Parliament was ultimately required to enact Article 50 as primary legislation, it can only be repealed by Parliament in primary legislation. Gina Miller’s hard-won Supreme Court victory is a double-edged sword. Bills can be passed into law quite quickly, but only with cooperation of the Governing party that has control of the parliamentary timetable. Without that cooperation, there simply isn’t enough backbench or opposition time available to do it.

So it still comes back to the Government. Yes, Parliament has the power to actually do it, but due to the time constraints is unable to wield that power unless the Government lets it.

Re: Brexit
 

You misunderstand the powers totally.

Parliament is not the Executive, it cannot dictate Government policy. Sure it can vote down bills, amendments but the fundamental principle remains, noone can dictate to Theresa May to withdraw/delay/retract Article 50, no matter how many times they vote for a motion or amendment to a motion, they are not legally binding.

---------- Post added at 13:46 ---------- Previous post was at 13:43 ----------

Essentially what I was trying to say, buy you've said it in a nutshell.

Re: Brexit
 

Looks like we're getting out just in time as the house of cards collapses.

Re: Brexit
 

To be fair, I think the whole world economy is in a state of 'unpredictability' . . and I'd like to think we (the UK) would rid ourselves of any shackles that *may* end up dragging us into a scenario where we rely on the rise or fall of others.

If the EU is going through . . or heading towards . . some kind of failure in its economic certainty, I'd hope we could escape some of the fallout by distancing ourselves from it.

probably not explained very well, but you should get the gist . . . :)

Re: Brexit
 

Even if we were not in the EU my views are if America and China start sneezing the rest of the world tend to catch their cold.

Re: Brexit
 

exactly the financial crisis started in America then world caught the cold

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Last paragraph in the link Sounds a bit "Project Fear"...

Re: Brexit
 

Cripes, I like a cheap pint, but that doesn't sound like a fun night out at Wetherspoons !

Re: Brexit
 

Just an extension of Original Project Fear which included imminent projections of the likes of Turkey joining the EU, Britain the Euro and the United States of EU being formed.

Meanwhile, The Standard is talking of the strong possibility of an extension.
Delay to EU exit ahead as Leave donors say they have 'given up' and Jean-Claude Juncker warns there will be no more negotiation

---------- Post added at 20:01 ---------- Previous post was at 19:58 ----------

Whichever way they voted, I think most people visit the pub to get away from the Brexit omnishambles, not to be lectured one way or the other on it!

Re: Brexit
 

Please post a little explanation with your link or first paragraph to the link, I know Hugh has since done this. Don’t just post a link that has no indicator, to where it’s going. Thanks.

Just a polite reminder to everyone else, we are heading away from the digs at each side and the flippant remarks. Paul’s warning was a means to move on from the petty arguments.

Re: Brexit
 

Has Juncker blinked?
https://www.ft.com/content/979bf172-...1-4ff78404524e

Re: Brexit
 

Sorry ! Will do :)

Re: Brexit
 

Turkey are a million years away from joining as they don't accept the Armenian genocide, didn't stop Nigel saying 70 million of them were already on their way though and the daily express putting on it's front page that 12 million turks (or 16% of Turkey's entire population to put the figures into context) would immediately come to Britain once they were in the EU, only one of these 'institutions' has admitted they were lying to btw, sorry that their figures were false

Re: Brexit
 

Could be the game changer TM needs.

Re: Brexit
 

Hopefully- whichever side we voted, nobody should want an outcome which hurts the UK.

Re: Brexit
 

As long as that includes leaving the Eu.

Re: Brexit
 

Doesn't sound like it, sounds like a last minute desperate panic. To 'try'and limit the backstop to a year means nothing.

The backstop is side dressing anyway. Doesn't change the fact we're paying £39billion for nothing. It's a crap deal whichever side of the debate you're on.

Re: Brexit
 

Agreed,

And as long as it means respecting Democracy as well and respecting the outcome of Democratic Referendums . ;)

Re: Brexit
 

Referendums?? Glad you've come round to our way of thinking ;)

Re: Brexit
 

How many are you planning on having?

Re: Brexit
 

A couple should suffice (i.e. one more now we know the facts and the fantastic future Brexiters didn't have a plan for.....).

Re: Brexit
 

Iirc I’m sure reese-mogg said that there should be more than one referendum

Re: Brexit
 

Are you sure a couple is enough ,what if the result is the same .

Re: Brexit
 

He only said 'it wouldn't be the end of the matter' if the result was 52:48..... Oh !

---------- Post added at 22:18 ---------- Previous post was at 22:15 ----------

Then that would be that. But we know the result wouldn't be the same given Brexiters panic at the suggestion ! if they were confident then no problem surely ;)

Re: Brexit
 

But the 17.4 million brexiter majority who came first in the voting result aren't asking for a repeat referendum, it's the minority remainers that came in second that are demanding it as some kind of right.

Re: Brexit
 

Anyhow I'm sure Mrs May won't have any issues with multiple votes when it all kicks off next week.

Re: Brexit
 

This seems to be the 'clarification' that was speculated on a while back. An exchange of letters highlighting the better parts of the deal for May as well as some political language that expresses a joint desire for the backstop to be limited. I think the government hopes that the letters can be pointed at as both the better parts of the deal but also as material for any future legal challenge should the EU not agree to end the backstop in future.

It's not changing the deal itself though.

Re: Brexit
 

You don't know what 17.4 million people want though.

Re: Brexit
 

They voted to leave so i think i do.

Re: Brexit
 

Did some of you have a memory lapse within the space of a day?

I have just removed several silly posts.

Warning sent only yesterday....

Re: Brexit
 

Doesn't mean you know if they've changed their mind or not.