Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978454)

Is that from his diamond mining company that doesn’t seem very busy?

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35978453)

Rumours are that Aaron banks is offering a loan to fund no deal preparations.

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35978455)

Isn’t he still under investigation

Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35978443)

But very often, what come around goes around, especially at the committee stage. Way, way back in the day, I went on a week 'business skills' course run by the UK scientific research councils (MRC who funded me, BBRSC, PPARC, etc.) One of the activities we did was a mini COREPER session, COREPER being the EU Commissions point where member states negotiators get together to bash out new initiatives, laws and so on. The chap running this session used to be part of the UK team at COREPER.

We had to negotiate treaties on renewable energy policy, levels on an industrial pollutant and tariffs on soft fruit. I was in the 'Sweden' team and we couldn't give a monkeys about soft fruit or the pollutant as we didn't make either but was very strong on renewables. We formed an alliance where we backed Spain and Italy on their soft fruit policy in return for their support on our renewables policy. We went 'soft' on the pollutant issue to get Frances support. We were given guidelines on our 'public' position and a secret limit to how far we could vary from this position.

It was a tough three hours but it bought it home how much horse trading you can do when working on multiple issues. Concessions on olive oil bottles will be paid back somewhere else. No one gives away anything for nothing at COREPER!

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35978451)

It's more like you pulled the funding and caused this so now you pay squire,the harsh reality of treachery is usually an unpleasant end... up the revolution;)

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35978455)

Isn’t he still under investigation

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978458)

By the Special Counsel for the US Department of Justice, no less.

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978464)

I hope when inevitably we remain

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978464)

I hope when inevitably we remain there are riots on the streets. It’ll make it easier to imprison the unpleasant underbelly of society we’d be better off without.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35978470)

The rest is noise.

Originally Posted by djfunkdup (Post 35978473)

:o::o: ZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzz zzzz

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978472)

Brexit supporters don’t seem very relaxed considering it’s “inevitable”.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35978474)

I'm not sure that elected MPs voting one way or the other can be called treacherous. That's emotional mumbo jumbo in my book.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35978474)

I'm not sure that elected MPs voting one way or the other can be called treacherous. That's emotional mumbo jumbo in my book.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35978474)

I'm not sure that elected MPs voting one way or the other can be called treacherous. That's emotional mumbo jumbo in my book.

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978478)

It’s literally not.

You can’t really criticise them though. Vote Leave had to lie and cheat to win by a wafer thin margin. They can all agree on one thing only to end freedom of movement. There’s no agreement on anything else.

A racist and xenophobic policy, based only on emotion, can only have negative consequences for the minds of those who are seeing their dreams taken from them. It really was a once in a lifetime opportunity and a monumental effort to reach 52%. They know it’s done unless it happens right now. Hence the anger. :)

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978481)

Something a minority of people voted for, and there’s no guarantee they’d do the same given the choice tomorrow. The Government has a responsibility to the entire United Kingdom.

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35978483)

More voted for it (brexit) than against, something else you repeatedly try to fudge,

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35978482)

There was no cheating to win at all - stop talking absolute rubbish.

P.S The Remain camp also lied too! :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978481)

The Government has a responsibility to the entire United Kingdom.

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978484)

No financial irregularities? None?

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35978483)

More voted for it (brexit) than against, something else you repeatedly try to fudge,

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35978486)

Yes to deliver Brexit, the thing that Democracy decided and what MPs, stood on election pledges and manifestos that got them re-elected.

That thing that you keep conveniently forgetting.

So the 303 treacherous MPs who have tried to stop tax collections in the event of no deal, are exactly that, treacherous.

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978484)

On one single date almost three years ago, of those who chose to vote, yes that was a majority.

However it’s the Government of the whole United Kingdom of 66 million people. Not a Government for Brexit voters.

Originally Posted by djfunkdup (Post 35978488)

He has something wrong with his brain mate . He just can't/won't get his head round it.. i really don't see any point in even answering him it's just the same moot weak points going round and round and round and round ..

He is going to have to accept us Chavs decided his destiny :D:D:D

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35978479)

On the other hand, MPs voting to hold back funding for something the 'people' voted for can be viewed as treacherous . . . as well as other names which won't be printed here.

Strange how different Governments/MPs are called nasty names by a few on here when they withhold funding for other stuff . . .

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35978490)

Strange that, because I thought they said they would honour the result, which means leaving the EU, as that is what won the vote


*cue lots of blah blah rhectoric about old people dying and 12 year olds not getting a vote*

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35978490)

Strange that, because I thought they said they would honour the result, which means leaving the EU, as that is what won the vote

*cue lots of blah blah rhectoric about old people dying and 12 year olds not getting a vote*

Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35978494)

strange Teressa May said again on tv Sunday no Brexit at all

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978495)

They shouldn’t make promises they don’t have the numbers in Parliament to deliver. It’s irresponsible at best and at worst unconstitutional.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35978480)

If I want to call them treacherous, I will, I don't need or require yours or anyone elses consent.

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35978509)

Course you can, You would be wrong however

We elect MP’s based on them acting in the best interests of their constituents not to blindly follow their constituents instructions.

The sovereignty of parliament it’s a wonderful thing

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978472)

It’s not noise it’s a constitutional crisis brewing. One that will result in the can being kicked down the road and eventually back to the people.

Britain isn’t in a position to leave the EU under no deal terms and everyone deep down knows it. Cabinet, and the party, is on the verge of open rebellion.

Brexit supporters don’t seem very relaxed considering it’s “inevitable”.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35978512)

Those voting Brexit were keen to let us know they knew what they were voting for which included sovereignty. But when they see our sovereignty in action, some deem it treacherous.
A no-deal Brexit was rejected by the electorate at the last election when the only party advocating it, UKIP, was rejected by the People. These MPs are therefore carrying out the Will of the People.

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35978522)

MPs represent all their constituents, not just 52%, and so it's hardly as if this is easy for them. Governing a divided country isn't easy. Remember if No Deal is actually pretty bad it will be them who are held to account by the public and not the talking heads who think this is all so easy.

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35978522)

MPs represent all their constituents, not just 52%, and so it's hardly as if this is easy for them. Governing a divided country isn't easy. Remember if No Deal is actually pretty bad it will be them who are held to account by the public and not the talking heads who think this is all so easy.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35978519)

[COLOR="Blue"]The "constitutional crisis" is the making of anti-democratic behaviour of parliamentary Remainers who refuse to accept the Referendum result and use their disruptive powers at the legislative stage.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35978526)

The referendum result was leave and not a no-deal. The electorate overwhelmingly rejected no-deal at the last election. Why do you have an issue with MPs carrying out the Will of the People? I sincerely hope it's not because you want no deal and wish to ignore the electorate's wishes?

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35978509)

Course you can, You would be wrong however

We elect MP’s based on them acting in the best interests of their constituents not to blindly follow their constituents instructions.

The sovereignty of parliament it’s a wonderful thing

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35978525)

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35978525)

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978532)

They have no such higher duty. To assert so is simply a myth.

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35978534)

Their duty is to safeguard the integrity & prosperity of this country and its citizens. Anything, and I mean anything, that compromises this duty can and should be challenged.

The comedy gold in all of this is the "take back control" and "sovereignty" babbling of the Leave campaign. I mean here is it folks: Parliament taking back control and asserting its sovereignty.

Don't you just love it ... :)

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35978527)

Er sorry, where did you pluck that nonsense from ?

There was no such election pledges, vote for a specific party for no deal wasn’t on any cards.

---------- Post added at 09:12 ---------- Previous post was at 09:03 ----------



No I’m not wrong, however actually.

They were elected to follow our instructions, we voted to leave the EU. Democracy is a wonderful thing, pity we have treacherous MPs not carrying out the will of the people, that will cause lasting damage to future Democratic processes because the electorate is currently being shafted.

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35978534)

Their duty is to safeguard the integrity & prosperity of this country and its citizens. Anything, and I mean anything, that compromises this duty can and should be challenged.

The comedy gold in all of this is the "take back control" and "sovereignty" babbling of the Leave campaign. I mean here is it folks: Parliament taking back control and asserting its sovereignty.

Don't you just love it ... :)

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35978539)

However, history dictates actually you are

Burke, Green and Civil Service Ethics

Members of Parliament (MPs) are representatives, not delegates. Burke himself said the following to his constituents, having been returned as an MP: "Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to your opinion." In other words, MPs should act in what they judge to be the public interest - not as advocates for the interests of their constituents and therefore not necessarily in the way that their constituents might wish them to vote, nor even necessarily in the interests of their own constituency.

Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35978538)

79:13:10.

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35978545)

I spent some time this morning considering all of this I think more importantly perhaps than Brexit itself is how do we even begin to bridge the ravine between the British people

If the scheduled exit occurs remain will never forgive exit unless it works
If there were to be a 2nd referendum and remain were somehow to win then they would never be forgiven by those wishing to leave unless we effect serious change from within the EU

A bridge too far too cross ?

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35978526)

The referendum result was leave and not a no-deal. The electorate overwhelmingly rejected no-deal at the last election. Why do you have an issue with MPs carrying out the Will of the People? I sincerely hope it's not because you want no deal and wish to ignore the electorate's wishes?

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35978534)

Their duty is to safeguard the integrity & prosperity of this country and its citizens. Anything, and I mean anything, that compromises this duty can and should be challenged.

The comedy gold in all of this is the "take back control" and "sovereignty" babbling of the Leave campaign. I mean here is it folks: Parliament taking back control and asserting its sovereignty.

Don't you just love it ... :)

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35978545)

I spent some time this morning considering all of this I think more importantly perhaps than Brexit itself is how do we even begin to bridge the ravine between the British people

If the scheduled exit occurs remain will never forgive exit unless it works
If there were to be a 2nd referendum and remain were somehow to win then they would never be forgiven by those wishing to leave unless we effect serious change from within the EU

A bridge too far too cross ?

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35978566)

The remain camp have burned all their bridges as far as i'm concerned,there's only so much whinging about losing the referendum and trying to overturn it that i can take.

Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35978557)

You make a very good couple of points.

Remain will be forgiving if an exit works.

Leave will never forgive if remain overturn a demorcratic vote.

That is the devide this country has been pushed into by remainers who for whatever reason did not agree with the result of the referendum and have (and still are) trying their best to overturn it.

Effecfting serious change within the EU is a non starter as has been proved many times over the years we have been members.

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35978568)

So, would it be fair to say that your position is basically it doesn’t matter what happens to the countries population as a whole ? So long as Brexit is delivered ?

Genuine question

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35978570)

It's almost laughable that within your mindset - you want Brexit thwarted and then expect us Brexiteers to sit there and smile happy as if we will have to accept what's happening and get over it, make no mistake, we will not get over it and we will fight tooth and nail if we have to, to save democracy in this country, there will be no bridge building whatsoever with anybody who supports this disgusting, treacherous action to overturn a democratic decision.

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35978571)

Don’t dare to tell me of my mindset you know nothing about it, just as you keep rattling on about me not telling you this and that , hypocrite much ?

Actually, your and I jostling is done on this subject I’ll seek conversations with those willing to have a discussion. Best wishes

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35978568)

So, would it be fair to say that your position is basically it doesn’t matter what happens to the countries population as a whole ? So long as Brexit is delivered ?

Genuine question

---------- Post added at 11:17 ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 ----------



So to consider some of the good points you also make.

1) when change stops in a democracy, we’re no longer in a democracy
2) if the result of the referendum had been the opposite I have no doubt we would be having the same argument but from the opposite side of the coin
3) If the UK is such a powerful entity in its own right and the EU are petrified of us leaving (which seems to be the thought process of many people who wish to leave) then surely if we were to remain in the EU that gives us the best chance to effect change (that’s if you believe our politicians can achieve that)

As were scheduled to leave currently and enter the transitional phase we basically maintain the same relationship but with no say

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35978568)

So, would it be fair to say that your position is basically it doesn’t matter what happens to the countries population as a whole ? So long as Brexit is delivered ?

Genuine question

---------- Post added at 11:17 ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 ----------



So to consider some of the good points you also make.

1) when change stops in a democracy, we’re no longer in a democracy
2) if the result of the referendum had been the opposite I have no doubt we would be having the same argument but from the opposite side of the coin
3) If the UK is such a powerful entity in its own right and the EU are petrified of us leaving (which seems to be the thought process of many people who wish to leave) then surely if we were to remain in the EU that gives us the best chance to effect change (that’s if you believe our politicians can achieve that)

As were scheduled to leave currently and enter the transitional phase we basically maintain the same relationship but with no say

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35978575)

So, moving on, and as per my previous post.

REGARDLESS of the outcome of ongoing politics how do we start to bring the populace back together

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35978573)

17.4 million people went and peacefully voted to leave and after the votes were counted the leave vote won so brexit must be delivered. if it isn't delivered then there is only one way to get democracy back on track and that involves a peoples uprising to clear out the treachery that is rife in our society ,it's clear voting achieves nothing if brexit does not happen.

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978578)

Dominic Grieve’s amendment selected. The Brexit at all costs brigade may be in for a shock.

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35978575)

So, moving on, and as per my previous post.

REGARDLESS of the outcome of ongoing politics how do we start to bring the populace back together

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35978580)

Amendments are not binding, no shock felt.

Clock is still ticking btw. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35978581)

Get your fellow remainers to accept a democratic vote and stop attempting to overturn it by whatever means possible.

That is the cause of division.

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978585)

You’re suggesting that they expect you to sit and smile, well what are you going to do?

Vote for someone else? Post on the internet about your outrage? Leave the country? Parliament knows people will comply once its framed correctly.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35978574)

Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35978581)

Get your fellow remainers to accept a democratic vote and stop attempting to overturn it by whatever means possible.

That is the cause of division.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35978587)

Well I won't be voting again, ever in my life - I will have voter apathy until the day I die, voter apathy will increase tenfold in Britain and it was already rife before as it is, as I said, selfish Remainers will have killed Democracy, what was left of it, in this country because they want to stay in a declining market and corrupted, cancerous EU. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978478)

Vote Leave had to lie and cheat to win by a wafer thin margin. They can all agree on one thing only to end freedom of movement. There’s no agreement on anything else.

A racist and xenophobic policy, based only on emotion, can only have negative consequences for the minds of those who are seeing their dreams taken from them. It really was a once in a lifetime opportunity and a monumental effort to reach 52%. They know it’s done unless it happens right now. Hence the anger. :)

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35978587)

Well I won't be voting again, ever in my life - I will have voter apathy until the day I die, voter apathy will increase tenfold in Britain and it was already rife before as it is, as I said, selfish Remainers will have killed Democracy, what was left of it, in this country because they want to stay in a declining market and corrupted, cancerous EU. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35978593)

Most of the time you come across as a level headed sensible person, but once in a while your guard slips, and you spout some bollocks.

Given the time, I'll assume you've a drink or two.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35978493)

The fact of the matter is that the only electoral party offering a no-deal Brexit - UKIP - was rebuffed by the British electorate at the last election. If the electorate had wanted a no-deal Brexit, they had their chance to elect a Government that would deliver it, They didn't. Those MPs are therefore not going against the will of the people and are not treacherous.

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35978596)

As thin arguments go, they don't come any thinner than that!

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978597)

Thin, but enough for our two big parties to help them sleep at night when they euthanise Brexit.

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978594)

That’s an ideal solution for Parliament to be honest.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35978584)

It will never happen pip, they expect us to sit there and smile when our democracy is destroyed for their own selfish reasons to stay in a declining corrupted EU and then expect us to cross a bridge and make amends, not going to happen at all.

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35978604)

BTW Bercow seems to have declared himself Lord Emperor of the British Constitution in Parliament.

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35978608)

Doesn't really matter. She has to come back with a plan. The plan can be to go down the pub and get wasted so long as she 'presents it to the house'.

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35978609)

That should keep Anna sourbelly happy.

Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35978606)

Greive's amendment passes by 308 to 297 majority 11

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35978612)

Theresa May has seen 12 defeats in the Commons since the 2017 election - more than Thatcher and Blair ever lost combined..

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35978608)

Doesn't really matter. She has to come back with a plan. The plan can be to go down the pub and get wasted so long as she 'presents it to the house'.

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35978613)

Neither of them ever had a minority in Parliament, or anything remotely close to one.

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35978592)

Don't give up on your rights just because society is blighted by a cancer, the solution is cut out the cancer and destroy all the affected cells that are eating away at democracy.

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35978613)

Indeed ... the Mogg pointed out this afternoon, all she has to do to satisfy the resolution is to table something. There doesn’t even have to be a vote on it. The question really is how bold dare she be? Will she take it as literally as she can and weather the howling, or will she cave in?

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35978621)

More big Brexit news: No10 confirms the Govt has just accepted the Swire amendment - which gives MPs the power to;
1. Veto the Irish backstop AND a transition extension in 2020
2. Limit the backstop to just 12 months
Both completely contradict the current Withdrawal Agreement.

Could someone with greater knowledge than I translate as to what effect, this could cause in relation to the proposed deal (again, genuine q, i honestly don't know)

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35978621)

More big Brexit news: No10 confirms the Govt has just accepted the Swire amendment - which gives MPs the power to;
1. Veto the Irish backstop AND a transition extension in 2020
2. Limit the backstop to just 12 months
Both completely contradict the current Withdrawal Agreement.

Could someone with greater knowledge than I translate as to what effect, this could cause in relation to the proposed deal (again, genuine q, i honestly don't know)

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35978624)

It would be easier to comment if you could remember to link to your source.

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35978621)

More big Brexit news: No10 confirms the Govt has just accepted the Swire amendment - which gives MPs the power to;
1. Veto the Irish backstop AND a transition extension in 2020
2. Limit the backstop to just 12 months
Both completely contradict the current Withdrawal Agreement.

Could someone with greater knowledge than I translate as to what effect, this could cause in relation to the proposed deal (again, genuine q, i honestly don't know)

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35978624)

It would be easier to comment if you could remember to link to your source.

Originally Posted by BenMcr (Post 35978626)

This may be helpful

https://twitter.com/Usherwood/status...24208001724417

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35978541)

Leaving the EU is putting the country on a more prosperous path

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35978631)

Evidence please ...

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35978630)

Well that’s just bizarre.

It gives Parliament the right to vote on the way the Backstop is brought to an end. Ordinarily as the Backstop forms part of an international treaty you would expect the government to retain that sort of power.

This afternoon is all about MPs showing, in as theatrical a way as possible, that they no longer trust the government and are therefore minded to give the legislature the powers and responsibilities normally entrusted to the executive.

In practical terms, the withdrawal agreement forbids either side from terminating the Backstop unilaterally so it doesn’t matter whether parliament or government has the power, they can’t actually use it without being in violation of treaty. I guess it’s possible the message being sent here is “we don’t trust Teresa May not to violate an international treaty”, but as I said, it’s just theatrics. Things would have to get extremely, unpleasantly bad before any British government would contemplate doing such a thing, so it’s essentially a moot point.