Re: Coronavirus
 

New after years of testing and multiple hurdles to get over, but people weren't forced to have them against their will to keep their jobs.

Re: Coronavirus
 

If they're compulsory then people would have breached their contracts of employment if they didn't have those other vaccines them.

Your gripe seems to revolve the speed that the current vaccinations were brought to market. This issue has been addressed many times before including this from the BBC. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55041371

Re: Coronavirus
 

it's not my gripe, i'm trying to understand why some people , especially those in the health services are reluctant to take the vaccines, these aren't a bunch of drunken idiots on a march these are health professionals, those very people who were being clapped and called hero's not so long ago.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Sadly some of those working in health services would be on that march. Whilst the medical evidence doesn't support them, their instincts are that the medicines have been rushed through and a few "Fakebook" posts will support such beliefs.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Is there any evidence significant numbers of people in these sectors aren't getting vaccinated?

Entertainingly. JCVI are about to recommend against vaccinating children. So we invite more waves rather than herd immunity.

Good news for those that love a good lockdown to allow schools to act as petri dishes for new variants. Bad news for everyone that wants to move on.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Was it not the case that the amount of testing/trials is the same but compressed into a shorter time period? Everything i can find suggests that to be so

Certain NHS trusts already require clinical staff performing set procedures to have certain vaccinations, it's also a condition of employment for new clinical staff hires, failing to adhere means the offer of employment is withdrawn.

I don't see where the issue is ?

---------- Post added at 15:18 ---------- Previous post was at 15:16 ----------

There's a couple of reports flying around about low uptake of vaccination in care home workers.


EDIT: Here's one i found https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....07.21252972v1

Re: Coronavirus
 

Just been having a look at the Pfizer vaccine details to see if there's anything controversial that might set people who work in healthcare's spidey senses tingling and got down in to the weeds on how the vaccine RNA is made up. It's very clever! You have (from beginning to end)

• A 'do not destroy' signal at the start (ubiquitous in nature)
• A bit that says where the RNA should be sent in the cell (ubiquitous in all complex life from yeast onwards)
• A bit that says 'hey this is for a human protein that you need, get making' (from humans obviously)
• The SARS-COV2 spike protein code itself, slightly modified so it doesn't 'trigger' and enter cells
• A bit that says 'OK, you're done' which is ubiquitous in nature

So the only non-human bit is the spike protein itself.

The whole shebang has been slightly chemically modified to help it hang around a bit longer. If you get the old jewellers eyepiece out, you can even see the 'copy and paste' bits where you can drop a different spike protein in if you want to make a vaccine against a variant.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Does that tell you what effect it will have on the human body in five years time, what if thousands of people start to die of the same thing and it's traced back to one of the vaccines , only the passage of time will let us know and as far as i know there is no way to jump forward five years to check.

Re: Coronavirus
 

But that’s not the reason why clinical trials have previously taken longer. They weren’t testing for long-term side effects, it was simply a function of available resources. Exceptional levels of resource have been poured into covid vaccine development and decisions that might have sat in a queue for deliberation and investment decision months down the line have been pushed to the top of the in-tray.

There is nothing about the way this vaccine works that gives reason to think that serious side effects will appear after an extended period. On the other hand, after the time we’ve just had, we can absolutely quantify the loss of life and economic damage caused by spending 5 years pursuing further trial data.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Then why are there so many health professionals refusing it?
reported earlier on the news 150,000 nhs workers not vaccinated and i think it was 15,000 care home workers

Re: Coronavirus
 

Can you explain what you mean by “so many”? These numbers are meaningless without context. How many staff are there in the NHS/care homes? What percentage do these figures represent?

I’m very sceptical that vaccine refusal amongst NHS or care home employees has anything to do with expertise.

Re: Coronavirus
 

well if they are meaningless then there is no point in vaccinating them against their will, is there.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Jabs were mandatory in the RAF. If you could not have one immediately, you were medically downgraded until you did. Downgrades meant no foreign travel, no contact with serving members returning after foreign travel, and often a halt to promotion.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I found this - https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1...71v1.full-text which is a study into vaccine takeup in health and social care workers in the UK. It lists a number of potential reasons for poor takeup with certain groups and suggests ways to improve this. (note preprint article, not peer reviwed yet)

Side effects was the most common reason, followed by lack of long term research (we'll call this the 'Papa Smurf effect') The effectiveness and lack of concern about COVID follow.

Re: Coronavirus
 

These were the aspects that worried me, too, but I went along with it in the end for everyone’s benefit and to get rid of the restrictions.

I’d expect better from NHS staff and employees in care homes who have refused the vaccine. Do they actually care about the people they are looking after at all?

Re: Coronavirus
 

Yes they care about those they are looking after, but they can also care about their own health.

---------- Post added at 17:20 ---------- Previous post was at 17:17 ----------

i like that -i'm writing a paper on it and hope to publish in 2050 in time for the lifting of restrictions;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

It's official from the fat man himself. 'Hancock is totally f........... hopeless.'
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...droidApp_Other

Re: Coronavirus
 

We had a choice?

Re: Coronavirus
 

Except that he didn't actually say that Matt Hancock was hopeless. It appears that he meant the position was hopeless. Don't forget that the system was unable to respond to expectations.

Cummings needs to do better if he wants to retain any credibility at all.

---------- Post added at 18:32 ---------- Previous post was at 18:31 ----------

No. But isn't that the point?

Re: Coronavirus
 

It was a joke from one ex-RAF to another.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Baker is hurting.

I'm sure the privileged among us are enjoying a better quality of life. Not spending thousands on a commute or hours on trains. More quality time with their children. Saving a fortune using fancy bean to cup coffee machines than wasting time in queues at Pret.

Re: Coronavirus
 

You couldn't have some jabs if you were "under the weather" or on certain medications.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Not everyone would count that as a better quality of life. :erm:

Also, you omitted the extra time with your spouse or partner.

jfman - are you being serious or mischievous?

Re: Coronavirus
 

For some friends I know, they would not count that as a better quality of life. ;)
There's a demographic of white collar workers who are genuinely enjoying a better quality of life for the reasons jfman outlined. And other ones too eg more connected to their communities, easier to watch the Euros, keep an eye on the builders, no need to lug internet purchases home, etc.

Re: Coronavirus
 

There's plenty of positives about working from home, which considering the economy has been running on the backs of key workers and those working from home for the last 15 months I doubt many wish to return to 2019 ways of working to prop up rents for property developers.

Extra time with a spouse or partner might be a benefit to some. For others absence makes the heart grow fonder.

I've never seen so many extensions or conservatories getting thrown up where I live as people adjust to the new normal.

If anyone is in the market for a bean to cup coffee machine I recommend the Krups EA817040. Had it for a while now and Amazon have just knocked £200 off it.

Re: Coronavirus
 

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...2&d=1623877809

https://cdn.substack.com/image/fetch...4_1428x214.png

https://dominiccummings.substack.com...otally-****ing

Re: Coronavirus
 

Yes, government has successfully managed to fool a few people on this.

Re: Coronavirus
 

. . . or is it Dom the Magnificent fooling people?

I can't for the life of me understand why he's killing off any chance he has of a future position in any company of note? Who would risk employing him after showing what he's capable of if he doesn't get his own way?

Maybe he's hoping to write a few books, or maybe do a circuit tour doing stand up comedy seminars on honesty & integrity, or maybe even hoping for a lucrative slot on Oprah . . like others have :rolleyes:

Re: Coronavirus
 

So much so that they would rather risk catching a potentially fatal virus, which they could also pass on the people they look after (who fortunately, probably are vaccinated).

Nope, your not winning that argument.

If they really cared about their own health, the evidence that taking the virus is better than not taking it is overwhelming.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I'd much rather take the vaccine.;);)

Re: Coronavirus
 

Thanks; I saw that later message on the news last night. The first message was something like 'it's hopeless'.

---------- Post added at 07:19 ---------- Previous post was at 07:16 ----------

That was me being mischievous, Andrew!

Re: Coronavirus
 

Is working for Michael Gove “of note”? ;)

I’m sure he will be fine. Books, media, etc. Being completely loathsome hasn’t harmed Piers Morgan after all.

Re: Coronavirus
 

If as you say they[oldies] are vaccinated then you just lost your own argument, unless the vaccines don't work, in which case there would be no point in taking them and you lose again,
can't see how injecting something into your body that you are unsure of and believe is unsafe is caring for your own health

Re: Coronavirus
 

You're presenting whether vaccines work as binary. The reality is not the case. Whether they work 60% of the time or 99% of the time you improve the chances for everyone the more people take it. If you are vaccinated and everyone you meet is vaccinated that improves your personal chances than if you (or people you meet) are unvaccinated.

Re: Coronavirus
 

So these part time vaccines only work some of the time ,what if it's not working while a care worker is at work,but old betty's vaccine is chugging along at 90%
is she not protected from serious harm

Re: Coronavirus
 

I guess it comes down to who you believe more - the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA), experts in the field of medicines regulation or your personal beliefs.

Me? I am going with the people who know what they are talking about.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Your choice. Which is the argument isn't it .

Re: Coronavirus
 

But not when your choice negatively affects others severely - which is why we have things like drink-driving laws, to try and prevent someone’s "personal choice" from killing/injuring others.

Re: Coronavirus
 

What are you going to do hold them at gun point and force it into them.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I’m not going to do anything.

I would imagine it will become part of their contract of employment, and not meeting the requirements will mean they are not capable of carrying out their job in a safe manner for their patients & residents - which is the other side of the equation, as the employers would be liable if they hadn’t taken the appropriate steps to safeguard the patients & residents.

Re: Coronavirus
 

She's not at a high risk. But if the care home worker is unvaccinated the risk is definitely higher than if they are.

Re: Coronavirus
 

For anyone out there that hasn't been taking notice over the last month . . . which means you were in a coma or self imposed media blackout . . the BBC are stating the bleeding obvious again.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57504172

a few quotes . . .

I've no idea why the 13 yr old to 17 yr old data has 'apparently' less cases . . . maybe that's the age our bodies . . . 'change' ;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

Yes, but it is also your choice if you want to be employed by an employer who mandates vaccinations in that case. It's also your choice that you actively decline protecting yourself and others.

Rights are all good but with rights come responsibilities

---------- Post added at 10:56 ---------- Previous post was at 10:52 ----------

I think it's due to who kids of that age mix with and how. From my experience, my kids are very firmly in bubbles at school and tend to mix only within those bubbles. Even out of school, my kids tend to mix only with their school friends on the whole.

Younger kids are rubbish at social distancing and lick and eat anything while people in their early 20s tend to have wider social circles and tend to socialise more indoors (the pub basically)

It's a theory...

Re: Coronavirus
 

I'm afraid I didnt lose anything. You however seem to have lost your marbles. ;)
Regardless of the vaccination state of others, not protecting yourself when there isnt any good reason not to do so is clearly selfish.
No doubt they'll be wanting their fellow health workers to help them when they get ill, taking up resources that would otherwise be allocated elsewhere. :td:

Re: Coronavirus
 

:gpoint: especially on taking up resources that would otherwise be allocated elsewhere.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Not to mention the more opportunities the virus has to find hosts to mutate into new variants or worse the more chance of us being back to square one, perhaps the anti vaxxers just love lockdowns :shrug:

Re: Coronavirus
 

The number of cases is back to where they were in February, but at least the death rates are staying low.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Cases don’t mean anything, except to the scaremongering media.

Re: Coronavirus
 

It's good news for those who love a good lockdown. More cases = more chances of a vaccine resistant mutation.

For those of us who want out of this situation keeping cases low is an essential part of it. Look at the success of Israel - they didn't give up because they got bored.

Re: Coronavirus
 

And to the virus, as the more cases/infections there are, the greater chance it has to create more variants...

Re: Coronavirus
 

Yet one hasn’t appeared. So as seen as as all you’re offering is chances, I’ll take my chances.

The rise in infections but not deaths would imply the vaccines are working, would you agree?

Re: Coronavirus
 

Depends how you define a vaccine resistant mutation. Plenty of concerns remain over Brazil, B.1617.1 and the South African variant. Any of those, or further mutations, could have significant impacts going forward.

Are you sure you mean “I’ll take my chances” and not that you are content for others to do so, as we discussed your privileged situation you are barely impacted by Covid restrictions at all.

As I explained earlier to Papa portraying vaccines in such a binary fashion is unhelpful. A 10% efficacy vaccine could be described as “working” but equally barely touch the sides of the pandemic. Anything else is playing with fire.

Israel have shown what is possible - cases in the tens, Indian variant barely making a dent. While we have a larger population there’s no reason why cases in the small hundreds shouldn’t be both achievable and sustainable.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Again, so what? The only commonality between all the variants has been the rate of transmission, the differences lethality has been negligible and all vaccines appear to be effective.

So as it is all a “risk based” decision, given all the available evidence, the risk of a totally new variant that is even more transmissible and vaccine resistant would appear low. Very low.

Re: Coronavirus
 

With the best will in the world your track record isn’t the best at this.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Could, might, if, maybe - monitor of course, but basing policy on “what if’s” is just going to hurt more people than it helps. Looking at the current situation.

Yawn, we didn’t “discuss” anything, I just stated my personal circumstances. In regards to the statement, you could only offer uncertainty and variables for your case - chances. Therefore, face with those options, I suggested i would take those chances, as I’m sure many others would. Because, unless anyone has forgotten you have a less than 0.01% chance of dying from this, and that was before the vaccine roll out.

So my “privilege” ( you really are pathetic) has sod all to do with anything but me.

And is that the case? A pointless statement as all the vaccines, as I understand, are all well into the 90’s ?

---------- Post added at 21:26 ---------- Previous post was at 21:25 ----------

Show me I’m wrong

Re: Coronavirus
 

None of the vaccines are 90% against the delta variant so your risk assessment is based on assumptions known to be false.

Pierre you can't make a statement as ludicrous as "I'll take my chances" if by your own admission you aren't impacted by any of the current Covid restrictions.

You're making a risk assessment for other people, or the population as a whole, consistently incorrect and I'm not really sure why to be honest. Discourse on the forum isn't really any better for it, it's not because Covid restrictions affect you on a personal level, do you hate state intervention that much?

Showing you that you are wrong about a prediction requires time as unfortunately I'm not capable of time travel.

However vaccine manufacturers are tweaking their vaccines on the basis of keeping efficacy high and I'll trust their judgement before yours every single day of the week.

Re: Coronavirus
 

https://www.astrazeneca.com/media-ce...n-variant.html

I just did.

Re: Coronavirus
 

That's not against cases. Cases being both a transmission and mutation risk.

If you're happy to make ludicrous statements then I suppose I can't stop you Actually it's probably beneficial for me in the long run anyway.

Re: Coronavirus
 

It hurts when you’re wrong doesn’t it? I know if it was you, you would continuously bring it up and bang on about how you were right and I was wrong, a la Old Boy.......But I’ll save you that embarrassment. I won’t mention it again...much.

Re: Coronavirus
 

No it just makes you look ridiculous when it’s evident to any observer we are talking about two entirely different things.

Like if I said the schools would close in January and you said supermarkets would stay open.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Nope just makes you look wrong, and then so desperate not to look wrong.

JFman Pierre JFman Pierre, link backed evidenced quote Who looks “ridiculous”.......Hmmmmm,

It’s OK to admit you are wrong you know, I have done many times........it’s a sign of maturity.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

BREAKING: EU loses legal challenge against AstraZeneca

Sorry but HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :rofl:

Re: Coronavirus
 

Sorry but I couldn't suppress a snigger at that news . . actually, in all honesty, I'll be chuckling all day :D

Re: Coronavirus
 

Mr K will be happy too - should have a positive effect on his AZ shares! :)

Re: Coronavirus
 

Public Health England research shows a single dose of any vaccine reduces hospitalisations by 75%; two doses reduces hospitalisation by 90%. These figures are the same for all variants.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-5...ost_type=share

Re: Coronavirus
 

More on that here.

https://www.companynewshq.com/compan...ine-to-europe/

EDIT

The EU seem to see it differently though.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pres.../en/IP_21_3090

Re: Coronavirus
 

Well of course - trying to spin their defeat into good news. :rolleyes:

Re: Coronavirus
 

tsk, spinning the news in a way to grasp a victory headline from a losing situation . . . and still people can't seem to live without them :rolleyes:

Re: Coronavirus
 

It gets more farcical by the minute.

The EU has now resurrected its claim that AstraZeneca must supply vaccines to the EU from its British factory, despite the fact that the court ruling does not specify this, and also that AstraZeneca’s European operation is already producing much more vaccine than will be required to meet the court’s requirement of 50 million doses by the end of September.

For the avoidance of doubt, the EU asked the court to force AZ to deliver 120 million doses by the end of June. The court has in fact ruled that AZ must deliver 20 million; AZ says it will in fact have delivered substantially more than 80 million doses by that date.

Ursula Von Der Lying has inexplicably claimed that all of this somehow amounts to an endorsement of the EU’s argument. In fact, all the court has really done is to quantify what “best effort” should look like - and as AZ has already exceeded this, if the court has endorsed anything, it is AZ’s position.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57531064

Re: Coronavirus
 

Have you ever had an argument with a woman :shrug:

Re: Coronavirus
 

What a bunch of simpleton pricks. (No, I am not talking about the vaccines).

Did the corrupted EU just forget there, that we are no longer in their grasps and do not have to do a damn thing they say anymore?

Re: Coronavirus
 

My wife just had a notification from her iPhone COVID-19 app - she had been in close contact with someone who tested positive on Thursday.

So, she will be self-isolating until one minute to midnight Sunday 27th June, and we are off to get a PCR test at 2pm today (both of us, even though I haven't been contacted).

Luckily (unless the PCR test comes back positive), I don't have to self-isolate, so the dog will still get walked - no trip to my daughter's tomorrow for Fathers Day, though, as I won't leave my wife on her own while I get treated to lunch. :)

Re: Coronavirus
 

COVID-19: Ministers consider dropping self-isolation rules for those with two jabs


https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-...gests-12336298

Re: Coronavirus
 

Indeed

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

I'm a little perplexed by this, whilst the vaccines offer better than imagined results against hospitalization, severe illness and deaths. The figures for reduction in transmission i believe are (for example Astrazeneca) somewhere between a forty and sixty percent reduction.

Now, up against the old 'kent' variant w is one thing, but compared to the delta/indian variant with it's significantly increased transmission capabilities makes me wonder if this really is a good idea.

Re: Coronavirus
 

This is "living with the virus" in action. The fact that some will contract the virus and go on to infect others isn't deemed to be relevant as long as it's not too many people at once.

Re: Coronavirus
 

You mean like we have doing for the last 20,000+ years.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I guess the daily tests will identify most infected people before they start retransmitting it.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Well, yes. And a lot of dying of viruses too over those same 20,000 years.

A hugely successful vaccination programme - like that in Israel - could see the numbers having to isolate be tiny, giving testing, tracing and isolation an excellent chance at keeping numbers low.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I've not had a cold for over a year, a first. There's a lot to be said for social distancing. People are either smelly or noisy or infectious or boring, best to steer clear anyway ;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

After stating in April that this current lockdown will be the last..........oh look.

http://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-b...inter-12337719

Re: Coronavirus
 

Probably best to stay on the allotment with the other vegetables;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

Never trust politicians selling comfortable lies the month before an election.

Re: Coronavirus
 

This has always been the case, 2020 being an example.
No one "budgeted for or accounted for" the current covid 19.

Re: Coronavirus
 

The link between infections and hospitalisation/ deaths has demonstrably been broken

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/

The government arbitrarily raise the capacity allowed at Wembley, after a threat by UEFA to move the a final elsewhere.

Not even going to mention the debacle with the England/Scotland players.

It is wholly evident to anyone with a half a brain that since March, at least, any decisions on lockdown restrictions have had sod all to do with ‘science”.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Breaking the link between cases and hospitalisations isn’t to say there’s no link, or that there’s no risk to NHS capacity, or risk to the health of the unvaccinated/part vaccinated.

I thought you’d be in favour of raising the capacity at Wembley after all it’s a step in the right direction?

I’ll ignore the half a brain comment. It’s been wholly evident since last March that your analysis on this matter is somewhat lacking. Given your conspiracy theory that it’s not grounded in science what’s the end game? Who benefits? Are other Governments in on it too (Israel/USA)?

What happens on July 19? Do they fob us off with more excuses?

---------- Post added at 09:17 ---------- Previous post was at 07:51 ----------

Hang on I've just actually read that data source hospitalisations and deaths are increasing faster than cases in the last 7 days. :confused:

Pierre it's helpful to your arguments to use data sources that actually support them.

Otherwise we are back at you think it's acceptable risk for others to take.

Re: Coronavirus
 

The link I posted were the official government stats from yesterday, actually the stats from the same day when I posted it.

The recorded positive cases yesterday were 11,625, 27 deaths recorded and 225 admitted to hospital.

The last time positive cases were at that level was around 17th Feb when there were 11,561 positive cases, 429 deaths and 1,375 admitted to hospital.

the divergence of positive cases against deaths and hospitilisation is there to see. I'm not saying cases are not rising but they're not rising anywhere near to troubling the health service, and given the continuation of the vaccine program they are unlikely to. In addition as was proven several pages ago in this thread, deaths and hosptilisations still continue to be in the much older and susceptible age bracket.

Re: Coronavirus
 

You are incorrectly assuming that cases, hospitalisations and deaths all relate to infections that took place at the same time.

Hospitalisations and deaths for a given case number will be higher on the down side of a curve (as in the weeks immediately preceding infections will be higher) than on the up side (where the weeks earlier cases will be lower).

The equivalent numbers for 30 September on the upward curve 12,556, 452 and 58. So while it demonstrates there is an improvement it's not as stark as using the February figures. It certainly doesn't back up the statement that decisions on restrictions since March aren't grounded in science.

Re: Coronavirus
 

And now the media are reporting 'Delta Pus' variant. Which basically sounds like a US airline rewards programme

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...sibly-24378326

Re: Coronavirus
 

Shark............ Jumped.................

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...uted-wave.html

Re: Coronavirus
 

Lmfao, quick keep away from trees...:rolleyes:

Re: Coronavirus
 

Is it grass at Wembley or a fancy plastic pitch?

Comedy gold from Baker here:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...back-to-august

I look forward to his forthcoming support of raising the living wage and extending paid annual leave so more people can go in more foreign holidays. After all life isn’t worth living without them.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Im pretty sure 28 days annual leave is enough for anyone to go on holiday.

He didnt actually say foreign holidays, but even if he had, none of the out of work people around here ever seemed to have much trouble nipping over to Spain, especially as they could often do it cheaper than going on holiday in the UK.

Re: Coronavirus
 

It is weird that people seem to only classify going abroad as a 'holiday" and overlook the country on their doorstep. Going abroad just isn't worth all the hassle at the moment. I'm off to sunny Wales if they let me in :) We've the prettiest coastline in the world.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Where is the sunny part of Wales?

Re: Coronavirus
 

LLabngoogoooskelloooogogogough

Re: Coronavirus
 

The bit I'm going to of course OB ;)

The weather isn't everything, unless you get no further than your sun lounger/bar and stray no further than your all you can eat and drink covid infested hotel. No Brit would want to waste their holiday like that surely...

Re: Coronavirus
 

Conwy was sunny last September, when we had a break there