Re: Coronavirus
 

Another day, another straw.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Explain Sweden, then.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Explain what? 50% of people working from home?

That’s not going to save Pret, Old Boy. Or parasitic property developers’ rental incomes. :)

Re: Coronavirus
 

Such is the banality of your ideas on how to fight this virus. That is never going to happen, nor will it work without a vaccine.

I know we have been told that one will be available by the end of this year to the lucky few, but that's a hope rather than a certainty at this stage.

We agree on only one thing, jfman. If we get a vaccine, then we have a solution. Your lockdown answer delays, it does not get rid of it.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Old Boy if you are digging up my sarcastic posts from a couple of days ago to land a single shot it’s only showing your increasing desperation.

Delays save lives, Old Boy. The demand side of the economy.

We aren’t Sweden, cultural differences, I’d just accept the inevitable from here on in.

Interestingly while you are here - as a Sweden advocate - would you support the 40% of the UK workforce who can work from home continuing to do so - in line with the Swedish recommendations on making living with the virus sustainable?

Re: Coronavirus
 

As they say in the newsroom Gotcha,caught out over egging the pudding again,so they can round up the sheeple.

Piers Morgan on the case https://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv...-covid19-video

Speaking on ITV's Good Morning Britain, Mr Morgan said: "This is why they didn't answer questions.

"I'm trying to expose the farce of what happened yesterday.

"Hilary, your inability to answer that simple question is why they didn't take questions because the first question would have been, 'if it's not a prediction then what is it?'"

Seems like scifi rather than science
during yesterdays farce i half expected General chuck chuckerson to jump up and suggest nuking the poles to sort the word out.

Re: Coronavirus
 

before you know it, there'll be a whole stack

---------- Post added at 09:10 ---------- Previous post was at 09:06 ----------

I think those that can and want to work from home should be allowed too, regardless of the pandemic or not

---------- Post added at 09:18 ---------- Previous post was at 09:10 ----------

I was, still am, a supporter of Boris but I'm afraid the handling of this is now trying my patience.

I understand they're trying to dance down a line of keeping infections low and keeping the economy limping along, but there are too many contradictions and not enough evidence to back up their actions.

They need to start from scratch with new holistic and encompassing strategy and ditch this piecemeal approach, and also treat the public with a bit of respect instead of trying frighten them with wild scenarios.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I agree that the projections were somewhat simplistic as they are based on us doing nothing different from what were are doing now.

In the article you posted, it showed that France and Spain had an initial exponential growth that then went linear. However, both France and Spain reacted to the exponential growth and put measures in place to slow the spread.

There is an interesting discussion to be had around how much the public will react vs. how much governments need to enforce measures and how much this reflects society in different countries. For example, in Sweden, there is a strong social contract between the public and the government so, in many cases, their COVID responses were pretty much voluntary and not enforced. Many far east countries are the same with mask wearing for example. Compare that with the US public response

Re: Coronavirus
 

The government desperately needs to get the three Ts right - testing, tracking and tracing.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Or Tell The Truth

Re: Coronavirus
 

We are still waiting for this World Beating Track and Trace

Re: Coronavirus
 

Honestly i think you can forget that,plus the testing is flawed and unreliable if reports are accurate.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I agree with you

Re: Coronavirus
 

“If”

I’ll actually partly agree with this. They need to level with the public about what is and isn’t possible too and unfortunately for some industries tell them that they will face restrictions for some time. There’s no silver bullet of reopening everything up. This could also include tax rises to pay for some of the support that will be put in place for some industries.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Everything about this virus is based on the science of Ifology;)luckily we seem to have no shortage of ifologists;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

I'm just catching up, jfman. I don't pore over the forum 24/7, and it takes time to look at everything you've missed while you are away.

There is a logic deficit in your second paragraph. Delays only delay, they do not 'save'.

My comparison with Sweden is simply to point out that they did not have a full lockdown as we did and they don't appear to have suffered for that. As I understand it, you want us to hibernate for winter, and doubtless beyond.

I have no problem with people working from home, although if too many people do that, unemployment will result from those who are employed in businesses that rely on people being in the office. Basically, what I want to see is government advice on how to keep yourself and vulnerable members of your family safe and then leave compliance to the good sense of the vast majority.

The minority will not be controlled anyway without martial law, so nothing would be lost by such a policy.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I do like the idea of the "infectious" test. If not infectious, even if you have the virus, then you can go around much more freely. If everyone in a "place" (centre, train, airport and thus plane) is not infectious there is less risk and can allow more freedom. (Yes on very long flights/cruised you may become infectious in the duration but a test before disembarking as egress is controlled could mitigate that.) But it would need 100% negative accuracy and be really, really quick and that is extremely unlikely.
---
I think the government is still doing well. They've made mistakes and Boris has admitted as such but it's a really hard line to walk, especially with a population that is independent minded and less obedient than some. It's hard to maintain strict rules for a disease that has only claimed around 400 under 60's with no underlying condition in England. It's not like some "plagues" with lots of people just dying in the streets and really visible symptoms and fast time to death.

Re: Coronavirus
 

So let's stop telling people not to congregate and just tell them that in groups of more than 6, you have to wear a mask!

That is, if they really are as effective as some are trying to put across!

Re: Coronavirus
 

Far too much truth there and it's that minority who spoil it for everyone else. There are some in all social groups and some will have good reasons for breaking the rules (e.g. being forced to work by unscrupulous employers, no other means to achieve essential tasks - being vague here) so care needs to be taken in how policing is done but I think that those who maliciously disobey the rules need to face much bigger censure. (Then some of those will not be able to pay any fine so get away with it??!!)

Re: Coronavirus
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54247372

Re: Coronavirus
 

Easier said than done.

In any case, we have already heard about the problems of relying on these results. There are no 'quick fixes' to this, I'm afraid. Other than an effective vaccine, of course, which we don't have.

---------- Post added at 10:21 ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 ----------

And create huge unemployment in the process! Jeez!!

Re: Coronavirus
 

There is no one "siliver bullet", but each thing, incrementally, lessens the chances of infection.

Other countries have working apps, and 80% accuracy of tests (if that's the figure) is better than no tests - perfection is the enemy of achievability.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Sweden’s economy is down, you should accept these things are inevitable and work on practical solutions rather than herd more to their deaths unnecessarily.

Where do you stand on the Swedish proposal to keep people working from home. Would you support that 40% of the UK workforce doing this is a positive way to make our response to the virus sustainable?

Re: Coronavirus
 

But if the tests are manifestly inaccurate, there is no point in testing.

Re: Coronavirus
 

“If”. There’s no real evidence to support the results are misrepresenting the trend. Wishful thinking.

Re: Coronavirus
 

No one's saying there's a quick fix and even a vaccine takes time to roll-out even if pre-manufactured. But the three Ts need to be fixed and we can learn from other countries that have done so.

Interestingly, I read that another reason that has benefited Sweden is its very high proportion of one-person households. Its average household at about 1.75 people is the lowest in Europe. The UK's is about 2.25. You are more likely to get infected by a household member than anyone else.
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis...nd_in_2019.png

Re: Coronavirus
 

Seatbelts don't save every life in a car crash, so there is no point in seatbelts? :erm:

Anyway, back to reality - the Governments 1-5 chart in May, and the current one.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...8&d=1600767836

Re: Coronavirus
 

I think everyone who voted for Boris knew the kind of person they would get so I've been quite surprised by the buyer's remorse I've been reading over the last months. He's been promoted beyond his ability - good at a figurehead job like London Mayor (except for the wasteful spending on the garden bridge and routemasters) but terrible at leading the country. His lack of attention to detail and preference to wing it instead of working hard is well known.

This article today from the FT delves into some of the problems he is making within his own party regarding his approach to tackling the pandemic.
https://www.ft.com/content/50c34a1a-...5-4dc7bd4d176c

Re: Coronavirus
 

The test used is pretty accurate with good sensitivity and specificity (sensitivity is correctly diagnosing a positive and specificity is correctly diagnosing a negative) I have seen numbers of 99.9% for both. That's pretty good for a clinical diagnostic test!

RT-PCR is quite a technically demanding technique but the failures are more likely to be false negatives than positives

BUT....

99.9% specificity means a false infection rate of 100 per 100,000. Even if COVID went away today, we would likely still see this background noise so at low infection rates, the effect of false positives is large.

Yesterday, we saw 4368 cases from 219723 tests. Even if we take the theoretically false positives out (220 cases) we are still a smidge over 4000 cases, up from 3105 or ~2900 when you remove theoretical false positives last week

Re: Coronavirus
 

The scifientists get a drubbing from Andrew Neil

Andrew Neil dismantles claim Covid cases double every 7 days ‘Using figures as propaganda'

https://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv...-Morning-video

Re: Coronavirus
 

To what end? Who benefits?

The economy? Tory party donors?

You can only issue propaganda in order to wilfully deceive people with a goal in mind. What’s the goal? Who wins?

Andrew Neil is only advocating on behalf of the Barclay brothers property portfolios. Nothing insightful to be found here.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Boris Johnson has said that the new Covid 19 restrictions he is announcing are likely to remain in force for six months.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...dates-politics

Re: Coronavirus
 

:(

Re: Coronavirus
 

oh come now lads, you know damn well he's a liar*



*well that's the opinion of many on here :p:

Re: Coronavirus
 

And who knows how reliable the prediction is. It could be even longer! :D

Re: Coronavirus
 

So now i have to go out earlier to make sure i'm rat arsed by 10 PM,then i can pop round to my mates house with 50 tinnies.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Funny thing is, if this move is to stop people staying out getting drunk and behaving in a lax way.

Just watch how Friday & Saturday nights will now start at 18:00.

Re: Coronavirus
 

and end in a party at home.

Re: Coronavirus
 

It doesn’t matter that some will shift their drinking habits. Others will decide not to bother and that’s where the net gain comes in. Table service means fewer people inside places too.

Marginal gains.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Just drink faster and talk less. ;)

But don't go to your mate's place if he's in Scotland. https://www.theguardian.com/politics...08aee39a113766

Yes, agreed, every little helps. I suspect Tim Martin may not be inviting BoJo around to pull pints with him as he did earlier in the year.

Re: Coronavirus
 

to be honest i don't go to the pub anymore,but me and the oh used to go out at 7pm and come home around 6am, then we had kids and that all ended,i don't see the new generation going home to bed at 10pm it'll be booze n drugs at a mates house till stupid o'clock.

If the kebab shop is closed at 10pm i can see the police having some big problems up north.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Younger generations I know are far more sensible than mine. They would far prefer to save for a house deposit than spend on a big night out where their misadventures will be recorded on social media for all to see. I guess each generation rebels against the last to some extent.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Have you actually seen the number of mainly younger people out on the streets at the weekend and outside the bars?? Looked pretty busy to me.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I try and avoid busy drinking areas. But drinking in pubs and bars has been on the decline for a number of years. There's also more competition for younger people's time especially from computer gaming.

---------- Post added at 17:00 ---------- Previous post was at 16:26 ----------

An interesting article from Vince Cable. This is its conclusion.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...n-b514103.html

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

In England they describe ‘1 metres plus’ as supposedly safe. Outdoors is supposedly safe. Not really sure the purpose of this supposed inter-generational dispute other than to absolve the Government off blame for a) reopening too fact, b) an inadequate test, trace, isolate regime or c) a combination of both.

Re: Coronavirus
 

From TV footage, there's no way most of them were even a foot apart in some instances.

Re: Coronavirus
 

If you selectively seek out the most provocative footage of people in streets this is easily done at train stations, bus stations or other transport hubs. Or closing time when everyone has to pile out at the same time.

If this is happening in venues then enforcement by police or local authorities is required. Places are clearly being told there tables are suitably distanced where they are not.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Has anyone ever called you a control freak, jfman? Just askin'...:D

Re: Coronavirus
 

No but if the Daily Mail tells me something my default setting is that it’s a distraction from the details I should really be looking for. :D

Re: Coronavirus
 

No one has ever been that nice:)

Re: Coronavirus
 

Vince talking sense.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Vince should volunteer to get infected. The Harold Shipman approach to immunity.

That’s a plan actually - we should pay these old folk writing these articles to get infected and self isolate for 28 days on a do not resuscitate basis. The amount of saved state pension in the long run will by far cover the accommodation costs.

Re: Coronavirus
 

There are rumours flying about that he is having an affair with a Russian musician and that he is close to resigning because he is finding it difficult to live on the PM salary of £150,000 a year, is fed up of Brexit and the pandemic.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Links please.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Because it is rumoured that there is super-injunction* in place, you will find it hard to find definite links about the violinist.

Re the "difficult to live on £150k a year", it was in the Times - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/o...lues-r9jl63m2q

* from Wikipedia - In English tort law, a super-injunction is a type of injunction that prevents publication of information that is in issue and also prevents the reporting of the fact that the injunction exists at all

Re: Coronavirus
 

Well if he's managed to fit that in, he's gone up in my estimation !

Anyway, he says all we need is 'Resolve', isn't that a hangover cure ? Well done Bozza, he's a genius, he's found the cure and managed to have a great time.
https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2020/09/10.jpg

Re: Coronavirus
 

Do you inject or snort?

Re: Coronavirus
 

In fairness all except the affair were in the Times at the weekend citing “friends and colleagues” of the Tory leader. Unless you think he is above having an affair I don’t think Richard adding it to the conversation is that sensational.

We get that you are upset at criticism of dear leader, except of course his coronavirus response, but I don’t really see the issue with the comments given the press coverage.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Ah Boris and Olga the inspiration for Dr Zhivago 😁

Re: Coronavirus
 

I couldn’t give two fcuk’s about our ‘dear leader” or any other politician, at any level. As anyone that enters public office with big ideas of making the world a better place is soon suckling from the teet of money for nothing. Everyone, and I mean everyone, in both houses, are a waste of money. Most are Ill experienced or knowledgeable to do their jobs.

The real power in government lies with the Civil servants, this is what upset Cummings so much. Governments come and go, but the civil servants in the government departments are forever.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I’m not sure what this has to do with asking Richard if he injects or snorts.

I’m with you though, more power to our leading Civil Servants like the Chief Medical Officer and the Chief Scientific Adviser. True experts in their fields. Knob politicians in the 1922 Committee and others in the pockets of big business and property developers are ill experienced and lack the knowledge to deal with a global pandemic.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

The chief medical and scientific officers of the UK are not civil servants, as in they are not permanent employees of HM Civil Service. They are government advisers. They feed in to the policy making process (very visibly so in the case of Covid response) but they lack the expertise to convert policy intentions into workable practices with a statutory or regulatory footing.

It is the employees permanently salaried to develop and operate the policies of HMG that do this, and therefore hold often unappreciated levels of power and influence. Many of these people remain in the same place for decades and are thoroughly immersed in their department’s culture (especially those serving the Great Offices). They develop a deeply-held belief in what can and cannot be done and it can be very difficult for any but the most skilled politician to truly control their department.

Re: Coronavirus
 

We had an nteresting discussion last night as our 14 year was knocking about downstairs and watched the Prime Ministers broadcast.

Right afterwards, before we gave any thoughts, I asked what her impressions were of the speech to see what, if any, impact the speech had on an average 14 year old girl. Was it clear, was it inspiring, did you feel safer for watching, that kind of thing...

Her summary was 'it was a load of waffle' and 'it didn't really tell me anything'. Then, she showed me the government adverts on Tik Tok (boo, hiss, selling your data to China, etc.) The Government puts a LOT of adverts on that platform. Most of them are animated guides that I have seen elsewhere such as Facebook and Twitter (old peoples social media according to my daughter) But there were live action films from Matt Hancock there too. The message there was 'yes, this is rubbish but it will be worth it in the long run' and 'look after yourselves and others'. The messaging was very clear.

Obviously, the speech last night wasn't aimed at 14 year olds but it was interesting how the Government approaches communications for different groups and even more interesting having Matt Hancock as the Governments spokesman. Maybe he looks like your average geography teacher. He was very good though to be honest

Re: Coronavirus
 

The good old BBC Yes Minister/Yes Prime Minister illustrates the relationship between the politicians and the civil service nicely for it's day and likely hasn't changed a great deal.

You at people around and generally people do look out for themselves first - panic buying, obey/disregarding rules and so on. Why should our leaders be any different? Especially in the commons they are "one of us" (yeah right!).

I think the PM is probably doing his best with lots of conflicting advice, balancing the health and "wealth" of the nation, keeping mindful of public reaction to policy, trying to negotiate "Brexit" deals, keep party in order and all the time under scrutiny with people ready to jump on any "mistake".

Re: Coronavirus
 

Coronavirus: Whitty and Vallance faced 'herd immunity' backlash, emails show

As the UK introduces fresh restrictions on social contact to curb the spread of coronavirus, controversy continues to rage about whether the government had initially considered trying a very different approach.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54252272

Re: Coronavirus
 

People make jokes about "Health and Safety" culture, but we are literally being held hostage in homes because of it now.

Re: Coronavirus
 

As someone that was sceptical of the late lockdown and remains critical about the notion of herd immunity being completely unproven, I’m fairly sceptical why theee emails are coming out now. A half decent hack would have put that FOI in around May. Government response around June/July but they’ve sat on it until now...

Interesting by the Estsblishment state broadcaster. Maybe someone fancies a career shift into the private sector.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I'm not.

---------- Post added at 12:51 ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 ----------

Boris Broadcasting Corporation knows how to renew its charter. ;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

The timing on when to release information has always been critical in throwing a good story out to the media . .

Re: Coronavirus
 

Why is considering a different approach a "controversy".
It would have been remiss of them not to consider all options.
People and companies do that all the time before making a decision.

In the end, it wasnt the option they took, so its irrelevant, just the media trying to turn into something it isnt.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Were you a master of the dark arts in an earlier age, Carth?

Re: Coronavirus
 

He was writing headlines fit for the Torygraph the other day ;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

6,178 cases today which is a pretty big leap. Can't have too many days like that or we'll be growing at a faster rate than France/Spain.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Free-to-read FT article on how close we are to a vaccine
https://www.ft.com/content/e5012891-...5-182adf3ba0e2

Re: Coronavirus
 

Free if you pay :)

Re: Coronavirus
 

The article in question is not paywalled.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I've been around quite a while, done some work here and there . . . you've probably heard about those tablets that Moses found ;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

This bit was quite interesting

Re: Coronavirus
 

The NHS app is out now and looks pretty good.

Re: Coronavirus
 

BBC Breakfast had a car crash interview with Anneliese Dodds (Labour Shadow Chancellor) Apart from completely destroying the economy with reckless spending to try and save every job, she looked like she'd been dragged through a hedge backwards several times.

Epic makeup fail. :D

Re: Coronavirus
 

Downloaded it, so pleased it's here. Has a very low star rating but I can't see how anyone can judge its performance yet; certainly setting it up took seconds.

Re: Coronavirus
 

The low star rating is because a lot of people downloaded it when it was being tested so they could not sign up so they voted it down because 'it didn't work'. Plus people who just want to slag it off because Government. It's actually pretty decent from what I can see so far.

Re: Coronavirus
 

It's irresponsible to rate it down for those reasons. Everyone with a smart phone should download it. Takes seconds and only requires you to enter the first part of your post code.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Of course not saving jobs = more people on benefits, free houses and all the glitzy stuff that immigrants flee war torn countries come over for. It’s not a zero sum game to the public purse.

The economy tanks either way. Plugging the gap temporarily, for industries that are sustainable in normal times, would be better in the long run than mass unemployment and a longer lasting recession.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Sadly it won't work for every smartphone. So my son and I have it but not my husband who having had lung cancer really needs to be shielded from Covid.

Re: Coronavirus
 

It's generally for any device that's 5 years old or newer as it needed active development from Apple and Google to add in the tracking mechanism.

---------- Post added at 14:08 ---------- Previous post was at 13:48 ----------

Realised I should have said devices with an OS 5 years old or newer!

For Android it's on Android 6 and above with the Play Store installed
For iOS it's iOS 13.5 or newer - so that's on the iPhone 6S or later

Re: Coronavirus
 

The plot thickens.

Revealed: Sir Patrick Vallance has £600,000 shareholding in firm contracted to develop vaccines

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...rm-contracted/


https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/p...-a4555141.html


Well now i see why the graph went off the scale,induced panic means more wonga.

Re: Coronavirus
 

There's perhaps a huge plot around the gravy train between politics, the private sector, and public appointments/peerages. However he declared his interest and steps were taken.

If you are pulling an adviser from the top of any industry you're inevitably going to have someone who has shares. You can't then use it against him when you don't like the advice.

Re: Coronavirus
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-54279370

Very helpful..:rolleyes:

Re: Coronavirus
 

Probably got shares in a phone company.

Re: Coronavirus
 

The app may simply require hardware that isn't in older phones. Any information on that?

Re: Coronavirus
 

It's not the hardware it's the OS updates that make it work

Apple added the needed Covid notification changes to iOS 13.5 and later only, and Google to Android 6 or later that has the Play Store available.

The Government were criticised in trying to make an app that didn't use the Apple and Google OS options so they switched
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53095336

Re: Coronavirus
 

iOS and Android APIs have to be baked into the operating system itself (or a modular component of it for Android).

Both Google and Apple have rolled it out to pretty much every single phone they support. Apple tend to support phones for a long time so they just added it to iOS 13 which goes back to 6S in 2015. Google usually don't but rolled it back to as far as I guess was technically feasible for them which is Android 6.

That is pretty far back for software on phones. If someone else tried to go further back, or even as far back as Apple/Google did, there is no assurance they wouldn't have had access to the functionality they needed in such old phones. In fact we know Apple don't let you have whatever location or background privileges you want now.

Re: Coronavirus
 

At least one Supermarket has decided to stop the panic buyers early ;



---------- Post added at 19:43 ---------- Previous post was at 19:41 ----------

If the Government want to buy me a new "smart" phone, they are more than welcome. Otherwise, I'll stick with my trusty little J700.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Life imitates art, or the other way around.

https://youtu.be/PFROZ8vGGlc

Re: Coronavirus
 

Apparently Tescos was the same this morning (Mrs B went this morning)

We started building up a stock of nonperishable essentials about 2 months ago week by week in case panic buying reared its' head again due to a second wave and with half an eye on the end of the year

Re: Coronavirus
 

So what? I suppose nobody has looked at the history of GSKs share price. It was over £1,800 8months ago, whereas now it's around £400 less. Some profiteering.:rolleyes:

They are a major company, so it's unlikely they weren't going to be involved somewhere along the line.

Re: Coronavirus
 

App installed OK on my work iPhone 5SE but I don't carry it around when not on-call so not as useful as could be. Don't have my own phone at all, don't need or want one.