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Mick 08-01-2019 00:18
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35978266)
It's still on now and obvs on catch-up if you feel inclined.
The clock may need some new batteries. ;)
I'd rather watch fecking paint dry.

The clock is connected to a mains outlet, no batteries necessary. :rolleyes:

pip08456 08-01-2019 03:16
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978273)
I’ve never mentioned George Soros on this forum, so I’ve no idea how you can conclude I’ve no issue with him.

A straw man.
Was I answering you or the poster?

Soros has made a damn site more than anyone on trades suggested by Andrew or yourself but at least one of you want Farage up front!

denphone 08-01-2019 07:22
Re: Brexit
 
Utterly reprehensible.:(

https://news.sky.com/story/anna-soub...ament-11601496

Angua 08-01-2019 07:24
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35978250)
Godwin's law strikes again... FFS give it a rest. :zzz: :rolleyes:

There is no evidence of anyone changing their minds, polls do not cut it I am afraid.
I have. Voted leave and now want to remain.

Unless you ask everyone, there is no way to empirically prove either your stance or mine.

Sephiroth 08-01-2019 07:56
Re: Brexit
 
Just to remind what you are hoping to remain with:

1. German economic domination;
2. Irish perfidy over the Backstop - their artificial position;
3. French blackmail over the backstop vs. Fishing Rights.

TheDaddy 08-01-2019 07:58
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35978071)
I don't think you're right §20 of the Withdrawal Act 2018 sets the Exit Day as 23:00 on 29-Mar-19. It also allows a "Minister of the Crown" to amend that date with some convoluted wording that amounts to an extension of the A50 period.

The Act makes no provision for not leaving the EU; this would require separate primary legislation which cannot be introduced except by Government. (A private member's bill will have serious difficulty finding time).

I read today that some treacherous MPs are planning to have the Finance Bill voted down, thus potentially closing government spending down, unless the government agrees to guarantee that No Deal will not be allowed. Now there's anti-democracy hard at work, thwarting an instruction from the public in the Referendum.

Of course some Remainers will define that treachery as a pure act of democracy and that is what the argument in this thread is all about.
I don't think calling people traitors is helpful, productive or even accurate, if anything if someone believes their country is making a mistake and without thought of personal gain tries to do something about it i think they're actually pretty patriotic rather than treacherous regardless of whether you agree with them or not

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35978226)
but we did have the facts in front of us . . do you want to leave or remain

the choice was about as simple as you could possibly get
Nothing like an informed decision is there and for a hell of a lot of the electorate it was nothing like an informed decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35978245)
Yeah, all the dire predictions that were said would happen after a leave decision never happened, you know the recession, job losses, WW3 etc...


And what makes you think a second referendum won't be flawed like the first?

It will be the same as before - division and mis information from both camps just like the first....
Imo measures should have been put in place so no vote can ever be run like that again, if it means jailing some of the future shysters, I'm fine with that to.

Btw wasn't it a leaver that made the ww3 'prediction'

ianch99 08-01-2019 08:03
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35978290)
Just to remind what you are hoping to remain with:

1. German economic domination;
2. Irish perfidy over the Backstop - their artificial position;
3. French blackmail over the backstop vs. Fishing Rights.
Can you run that past us again? Not sure we got it the first time .. :)

---------- Post added at 08:03 ---------- Previous post was at 08:01 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35978283)
Totally agree!

What on earth are the police doing allowing these thugs to verbally assault an MP outside Parliament especially after the Jo Cox killing.

Disgusting ..

mrmistoffelees 08-01-2019 08:07
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35978290)
Just to remind what you are hoping to remain with:

1. German economic domination;
2. Irish perfidy over the Backstop - their artificial position;
3. French blackmail over the backstop vs. Fishing Rights.
Meanwhile here are some of thing things that being part of the EU has brought us.

1. Paid Annual leave
2. Maternity leave
3. Equal pay
4. Sickness Rights
5. Cheaper flights
6. Abolition of roaming charges.
7.Parental leave
8. Healthcare whilst on holiday

The list goes on, and on, and on.

To all those who would jump in and say 'we would have had those with or without the EU' save your breath's you have no evidence whatsoever to support that claim

Hugh 08-01-2019 08:11
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35978256)
I didn't know the EU had a trade deal with Kenya? Where did that one come from.

I'm sure the UK could make one reasonably quickly to secure the continued benefit of their tea industry. Possibly the same with India perhaps to a lesser extent.

It's amazing how remainers keep going on about the EU being the better trading block without considering how much the UK currently imports from outside of the EU and did so before membership.

Tea is a classic example of that ( we are the "nation of tea drinkers").

I may have to stockpile coffee though, but beer's always an alternative.

https://www.statista.com/chart/13062...tea-come-from/
Did you mean this one?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45342607
Quote:
None of the three countries the prime minister is visiting - South Africa, Nigeria and Kenya - are on that United Nations list of LDCs. That is probably one of the reasons she chose them. They are bigger economic players and there is more to be gained from commercial relations with them.

But all three of them do get some degree of relief from EU trade tariffs.
There is an arrangement that covers other developing countries beyond the LDCs. It's known as the Generalised System of Preferences (GSP). Other rich countries, including the US and Japan operate their own GSPs.

The EU's version applies to Nigeria and has benefited Kenya but does not cover South Africa.

It doesn't open the tariff-free gates as wide as EBA does. The EU says it gives tariff-free access for 57% of products and reduced rates for most of the rest. But the minority of goods still subject to full tariffs are often farm produce.
Both the Everything but Arms and the Generalised System of Preferences are unilateral. The EU simply lowers or eliminates tariffs and the partner country is under no obligation to reciprocate and cut their own tariffs on imports from the EU.

But there are wider deals known as Economic Partnership Agreements (EPA). These go further and also mean a country like Kenya opening its market to the EU, though not as much as the EU does.

Kenya is part of an EPA through an East African regional group. Kenya has duty-free access on an interim basis until three other countries in the group sign and ratify it so the agreement comes into full effect.

Damien 08-01-2019 08:18
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35978281)
Was I answering you or the poster?

Soros has made a damn site more than anyone on trades suggested by Andrew or yourself but at least one of you want Farage up front!
I mean there is nothing necessarily wrong with making money from trades. It's manipulating the market, i.e intentionally misleading or changing it via dubious means which is often illegal. Soros is good at what he does and bet against the Pound on Black Wednesday, that wasn't illegal as he thought the pound wouldn't be able to maintain itself against the ERM. He didn't manipulate it as such, he just participated in market activity.

nomadking 08-01-2019 08:45
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35978296)
Meanwhile here are some of thing things that being part of the EU has brought us.

1. Paid Annual leave
2. Maternity leave
3. Equal pay
4. Sickness Rights
5. Cheaper flights
6. Abolition of roaming charges.
7.Parental leave
8. Healthcare whilst on holiday

The list goes on, and on, and on.

To all those who would jump in and say 'we would have had those with or without the EU' save your breath's you have no evidence whatsoever to support that claim
Most of those existed BEFORE they were EU directives and are there to make sure that other EU countries are economically hampered by rules that Germany sets for itself.
EU
Quote:
Maternity leave policies in EU Member States are governed by the
1992 Pregnant Workers Directive
UK
Quote:
Social responsibility for women’s health during childbearing was first recognised through the 1911 National Insurance Act.

...
The UK introduced its first maternity leave legislation through the Employment Protection Act 1975, which was extended through further legislation, such as The Employment Act 1980.
The UK introduced it 81 or 17 years before the EU.
Quote:
During the 1970s, the provision of maternity leave had been introduced in many European countries.

Mick 08-01-2019 08:48
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35978296)
Meanwhile here are some of thing things that being part of the EU has brought us.

1. Paid Annual leave
2. Maternity leave
3. Equal pay
4. Sickness Rights
5. Cheaper flights
6. Abolition of roaming charges.
7.Parental leave
8. Healthcare whilst on holiday

The list goes on, and on, and on.

To all those who would jump in and say 'we would have had those with or without the EU' save your breath's you have no evidence whatsoever to support that claim
This list does nothing to remove the corruption within the EU and my desire to leave such a cancerous union. I voted to leave, leave won the democratic result, so leave we must, unless of course you want to abuse democracy and keep having referendums until you get the result you want ? :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 08:48 ---------- Previous post was at 08:45 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35978292)

Btw wasn't it a leaver that made the ww3 'prediction'
Nope, it was a Remainer - Former Prime Minister, David Cameron, himself...

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...ld-war-7928607

Pierre 08-01-2019 08:48
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35978204)
I have absolutely no problem with leaving the EU if the people choose even by the original margin. What I have an issue is that people made a decision without having the facts in front of them.
We’ve already thrashed this particular point out.

There are no material facts that we know now that we didn’t know then.

But feel free to try and come up with some.

Damien 08-01-2019 08:49
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35978283)
I have no idea why the police let them get so close and continue to harass her like that. To anyone that is a deeply concerning and intimidating situation but considering she is an elected MP the security needs to be better.

Pierre 08-01-2019 08:51
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978247)
Surely in fighting and dying for freedom that includes the freedom to change their minds.

Being stuck to an ideologically driven and economically damaging because at one point in time and in the absence of facts a decision was made once sounds like exactly the kind of fascism we fought against. The Nazis won an election in 1933, after all.
What facts were absent? We’ve done this and as I recall there may have been 1no. Item, that’s all.

Mick 08-01-2019 08:52
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35978293)

Totally agree!

What on earth are the police doing allowing these thugs to verbally assault an MP outside Parliament especially after the Jo Cox killing.

Disgusting ..
I am sorry where is your fake outrage when JRM and his children were mob handed by the hard-left not many moons ago ?

I have no sympathy for Anna Soubry, she is a liar who was elected and stood on a manifesto honouring the Brexit result. She deserves all she gets, people are bloody angry out there and rightfully so - it will only manifest itself to greater levels if Brexit is halted by democracy abusers.

Pierre 08-01-2019 08:53
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978260)
If leaving the EU was economically a good idea the Conservatives would have an agreed position - however they don’t. Politicians have a survival instinct where they don’t want to lose elections and they know the damage will leave them all fighting for their political lives.
Economics was not the overriding factor in the decision.

It was in there but was a good way down the list.

TheDaddy 08-01-2019 08:57
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35978300)
This list does nothing to remove the corruption within the EU and my desire to leave such a cancerous union. I voted to leave, leave won the democratic result, so leave we must, unless of course you want to abuse democracy and keep having referendums until you get the result you want ? :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 08:48 ---------- Previous post was at 08:45 ----------



Nope, it was a Remainer - Former Prime Minister, David Cameron, himself...

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...ld-war-7928607
Sounds like I remember it, call me Dave banging on about peace and stability in Europe and mop haired flop equating it to ww3, would have been better if they'd both just kept quiet imo

1andrew1 08-01-2019 08:59
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35978281)
Was I answering you or the poster?

Soros has made a damn site more than anyone on trades suggested by Andrew or yourself but at least one of you want Farage up front!
You quoted jfman so yes, you were replying to him. Making money by shorting the Pound is not market manipulation.

nomadking 08-01-2019 08:59
Re: Brexit
 
There was at least one case(in Northampton) of a Leave campaign meeting having to be cancelled because of the threat of violence against Leave supporters. Not much fuss was made over that.
Quote:
Nigel Farage was forced to cancel an appearance in Northampton today, as tensions flared ahead of his visit.
...
A group of around 30 activists chanting 'refugees are welcome here' and carrying banners saying 'no to Ukip' blocked the entrance to the Market Square, where Farage was expected to arrive as part of his Brexit bus tour of the UK.

Damien 08-01-2019 09:01
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35978305)
I am sorry where is your fake outrage when JRM and his children were mob handed by the hard-left not many moons ago ?

I have no sympathy for Anna Soubry, she is a liar who was elected and stood on a manifesto honouring the Brexit result. She deserves all she gets, people are bloody angry out there and rightfully so - it will only manifest itself to greater levels if Brexit is halted by democracy abusers.
No she doesn't 'deserve all she gets'. She is an elected MP and we settle these things by elections. Not intimidation, rape threats and abuse. You can't go on about democracy all the time and advocate intimation and threats as a method of political action, that's not democracy it's thuggery.

1andrew1 08-01-2019 09:05
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35978305)
I am sorry where is your fake outrage when JRM and his children were mob handed by the hard-left not many moons ago ?

I have no sympathy for Anna Soubry, she is a liar who was elected and stood on a manifesto honouring the Brexit result. She deserves all she gets, people are bloody angry out there and rightfully so - it will only manifest itself to greater levels if Brexit is halted by democracy abusers.
No one deserves that whatever their politics. Anger should not equal abuse but quite why any remainer should be angry is beyond me if they're confident that we're leaving at the end of March.

denphone 08-01-2019 09:09
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35978303)
I have no idea why the police let them get so close and continue to harass her like that. To anyone that is a deeply concerning and intimidating situation but considering she is an elected MP the security needs to be better.
Sadly unless the authorities start to crack down harder it might not be long before we have another Jo Cox on our hands.

---------- Post added at 09:09 ---------- Previous post was at 09:06 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35978311)
No one deserves that whatever their politics. Anger should not equal abuse but quite why any remainer should be angry is beyond me if they're confident that we're leaving at the end of March.
Protests are fine as that is what one would expect in a normal democracy but once you step into the realms of abuse and hate then one never knows where it will end.

Mick 08-01-2019 09:09
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35978310)
No she doesn't 'deserve all she gets'. She is an elected MP and we settle these things by elections. Not intimidation, rape threats and abuse. You can't go on about democracy all the time and advocate intimation and threats as a method of political action, that's not democracy it's thuggery.
More fake outrage - seen enough of it - as I said I have no sympathy for her at all. I was not aware of the Rape threats, so do not levy that at me, I am on about Anna being shouted outside parliament and being called a liar and a Nazi.

It's suddenly not okay to call the other side a Nazi, dear me, when people on the right and Brexiteers themselves have been associated with such a term since the leave result.

denphone 08-01-2019 09:10
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35978309)
There was at least one case(in Northampton) of a Leave campaign meeting having to be cancelled because of the threat of violence against Leave supporters. Not much fuss was made over that.
And there are no excuses for that either..

Maggy 08-01-2019 09:12
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35978310)
No she doesn't 'deserve all she gets'. She is an elected MP and we settle these things by elections. Not intimidation, rape threats and abuse. You can't go on about democracy all the time and advocate intimation and threats as a method of political action, that's not democracy it's thuggery.
:clap:

No one does. It matters not which side of the political divide of any issue an MP is on. Plus I'm getting sick of the whataboutism that gets offered as an excuse. It's wrong whatever your political affiliations happen to be.

Damien 08-01-2019 09:16
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35978314)
More fake outrage - seen enough of it - as I said I have no sympathy for her at all. I was not aware of the Rape threats, so do not levy that at me, I am on about Anna being shouted outside parliament and being called a liar and a Nazi.

It's suddenly not okay to call the other side a Nazi, dear me, when people on the right and Brexiteers themselves have been associated with such a term since the leave result.
It's not 'fake outrage', it's me objecting to these thugs. As for the rape threats these are the kind of people we're dealing with.

The police need to stop MPs, or anyone else frankly, being surrounded and hassled like that. it's a big security risk for a start. It's an unacceptable way to behave.

nomadking 08-01-2019 09:17
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978269)
I’d go as far as nothing illegal. However Farage’s statement and the public exit poll manipulated the market.
It was the Remain side that said that the pound would drop if the vote was for leave.



What people seem to forget is that the markets will turn a particular direction if enough people are convinced that a particular event will cause the market to turn in that direction. If the pound is thought to go down in the near future, then they are "forced" to sell in order to get the best price before it drops further. That selling is the thing that drops the price and NOTHING ELSE.
Eg On Black Wednesday when the UK was forced out of the ERM, the German Bundesbank, the BBC etc were determined to have the Pound devalued. That triggered a run of selling of the Pound which caused the value to drop. There was no real devaluation, only the fear of it being devalued.


After any fall they simply buy back what they sold for a cheaper price. They make profits out if it.

papa smurf 08-01-2019 09:18
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35978283)
Probably her own constituents unhappy at her brexit stance.

Mick 08-01-2019 09:20
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35978317)
It's not 'fake outrage', it's me objecting to these thugs. As for the rape threats these are the kind of people we're dealing with.

The police need to stop MPs, or anyone else frankly, being surrounded and hassled like that. it's a big security risk for a start. It's an unacceptable way to behave.
Stop going on about the rape threats, that is a separate issue and totally unacceptable - as for people urling and shouting at MPs, it happens all the time.

So you are objecting to this behaviour - Right, so where the hell was your objections when JRM and his kids were targeted ?

I saw nothing said by you back then when that happened, that I recall, I stand to be corrected if you did.

denphone 08-01-2019 09:20
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35978317)
It's not 'fake outrage', it's me objecting to these thugs. As for the rape threats these are the kind of people we're dealing with.

The police need to stop MPs, or anyone else frankly, being surrounded and hassled like that. it's a big security risk for a start. It's an unacceptable way to behave.
Indeed If another Jo Cox happens there is nothing whatsoever fake about that..

Mick 08-01-2019 09:23
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35978319)
Probably her own constituents unhappy at her brexit stance.
She is on a wafer thin majority, less than 900 votes.

denphone 08-01-2019 09:23
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35978321)
Stop going on about the rape threats, that is a separate issue and totally unacceptable - as for people urling and shouting at MPs, it happens all the time.

So you are objecting to this behaviour - Right, so where the hell was your objections when JRM and his kids were targeted ?

I saw nothing said by you back then when that happened, that I recall, I stand to be corrected if you did.
Whether its left or right or someone who supports Brexit or does not there is no place for any type of abuse whatsoever.

Mick 08-01-2019 09:24
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35978317)
It's not 'fake outrage', it's me objecting to these thugs. As for the rape threats these are the kind of people we're dealing with.

The police need to stop MPs, or anyone else frankly, being surrounded and hassled like that. it's a big security risk for a start. It's an unacceptable way to behave.
Come to think about it, where was your outrage back when Hugh was joking about shooting dead six MPs, all Brexiteers ???

denphone 08-01-2019 09:25
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35978319)
Probably her own constituents unhappy at her brexit stance.
If her constituents are unhappy then there is a ballot box to show their displeasure at her don't you agree?..

Damien 08-01-2019 09:27
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35978321)
Stop going on about the rape threats, that is a separate issue and totally unacceptable - as for people urling and shouting at MPs, it happens all the time.

So you are objecting to this behaviour - Right, so where the hell was your objections when JRM and his kids were targeted ?

I saw nothing said by you back then when that happened, that I recall, I stand to be corrected if you did.
It's not the a different issue, it's the same people.

And here I where I called the people abusing Mogg and his kids a horrible little group: https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...3#post35963023

jfman 08-01-2019 09:30
Re: Brexit
 
It’s apparent that Brexit has caused the poisonous underclass to believe they can act outside the law.

Mick 08-01-2019 09:33
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35978327)
It's not the a different issue, it's the same people.

And here I where I called the people abusing Mogg and his kids a horrible little group: https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...3#post35963023
That's fair enough, like I said, happy to be stand corrected, be it a small outcry back then - probably why I missed it.

---------- Post added at 09:33 ---------- Previous post was at 09:32 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978329)
It’s apparent that Brexit has caused the poisonous underclass to believe they can act outside the law.
It was like this way before Brexit, but trust you to blame the cause on something you totally disagree with. :rolleyes:

Chris 08-01-2019 09:36
Re: Brexit
 
So this morning politicians and the BBC are finally dropping the rhetoric and admitting clearly that Parliament cannot stop Brexit occurring in March whether or not there’s a deal. Former Labour minister Yvette Cooper seems to think that good old fashioned civil war era brinkmanship is the way to deal with this - her wheeze is to propose an amendment to the finance bill (which enacts the budget), constraining some of the government’s tax raising powers in the event of a ‘no deal’, unless Parliament has explicitly authorised it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46789565

denphone 08-01-2019 09:36
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978329)
It’s apparent that Brexit has caused the poisonous underclass to believe they can act outside the law.
There has always been some hate and abuse there in society and there always has been but one you let the genie fully out of the bottle then that is a different thing altogether.

Mick 08-01-2019 09:42
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35978332)
So this morning politicians and the BBC are finally dropping the rhetoric and admitting clearly that Parliament cannot stop Brexit occurring in March whether or not there’s a deal. Former Labour minister Yvette Cooper seems to think that good old fashioned civil war era brinkmanship is the way to deal with this - her wheeze is to propose an amendment to the finance bill (which enacts the budget), constraining some of the government’s tax raising powers in the event of a ‘no deal’, unless Parliament has explicitly authorised it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46789565
They're trying to do a U.S style shut down of the government.

papa smurf 08-01-2019 09:47
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35978326)
If her constituents are unhappy then there is a ballot box to show their displeasure at her don't you agree?..
I think if remainers can call brexiteers racist's and nazi's it must just be part of that old free speech chestnut, don't hear much condemnation when Boris/ JRM/nigel farage etc are on the receiving end.

denphone 08-01-2019 09:53
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35978335)
I think if remainers can call brexiteers racist's and nazi's it must just be part of that old free speech chestnut, don't hear much condemnation when Boris/ JRM/nigel farage etc are on the receiving end.
Whether its Remainers or Brexiteers being called racist's , nazi's or any other abusive term it should be condemned fully no ifs , no buts and no maybe's..

Damien 08-01-2019 09:54
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35978335)
I think if remainers can call brexiteers racist's and nazi's it must just be part of that old free speech chestnut, don't hear much condemnation when Boris/ JRM/nigel farage etc are on the receiving end.
I don't think you should all people Nazis (unless they actually are, i.e white supremacists) and I don't call everyone racist.

But the objection is less calling her a Nazi and more the way they surrounded her and harassed her in the street. A group of angry people surrounding someone whilst hurling abuse carries an undertone of violence to it. If this happened to anyone in a public setting you hope the police would step in and disperse the group. Given the fact she is also an MP and that carries additional security concerns then it's even worse.

jonbxx 08-01-2019 09:54
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978329)
It’s apparent that Brexit has caused the poisonous underclass to believe they can act outside the law.
The clever part is that there has been an good reading of the Tommy Robinson Playbook and these people shouting at MPs are acting within the law but only just. They are asking for a rise from the people they shout at and/or the police to become martyrs.

I have enough respect for politicians and others of all flavours for keeping calm but not running away either.

BTW, here's some further footage of the hassle Anna Soubry got after her BBC interview - https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/statu...06981828968448 Lovely people...

papa smurf 08-01-2019 10:02
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35978336)
Whether its Remainers or Brexiteers being called racist's , nazi's or any other abusive term it should be condemned fully no ifs , no buts and no maybe's..
No i don't agree, i have become desensitised to name calling ever since the referendum,i am assured it is just freedom of speech and we don't want to impede that freedom do we.

This type of confrontation has just become part of the job, I've seen worse press scrums.

jfman 08-01-2019 10:09
Re: Brexit
 
Freedom to spread poison, hate and threats.

Is that what we fought and died for in the two World Wars?

nomadking 08-01-2019 10:13
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978341)
Freedom to spread poison, hate and threats.

Is that what we fought and died for in the two World Wars?
And to be able to ignore a democratic vote?

papa smurf 08-01-2019 10:31
Re: Brexit
 
'My car was SMASHED up!'
We even reached the position where my family was attacked

https://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv...EU-Theresa-May


"there’s a real double standard that those of us that have taken on the establishment have to endure the abuse, those within the establishment get a taste of it and suddenly they want the law changed.”

Mick 08-01-2019 10:33
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978341)
Freedom to spread poison, hate and threats.

Is that what we fought and died for in the two World Wars?
:rolleyes: :dunce:

Who is this we?

YOU didn't fight, our ancestors did.

And yes they fought for such freedoms to express themselves, as long as what is being expressed is perfectly legal.

But give this argument a rest FFS.

You drone on and on over the same thing. :zzz:

Mr K 08-01-2019 10:40
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35978333)
There has always been some hate and abuse there in society and there always has been but one you let the genie fully out of the bottle then that is a different thing altogether.
Brexit has encouraged hate/abuse I'm afraid. It's a worrying trend that these people think they can get away with it.

---------- Post added at 10:40 ---------- Previous post was at 10:36 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35978330)
That's fair enough, like I said, happy to be stand corrected, be it a small outcry back then - probably why I missed it.[COLOR="Silver"]
You probably had one of your eyes closed again...:rolleyes:

mrmistoffelees 08-01-2019 10:57
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35978302)
We’ve already thrashed this particular point out.

There are no material facts that we know now that we didn’t know then.

But feel free to try and come up with some.
So you were aware of the terms of the exit deal that the UK/EU would negotiate too?

Hugh 08-01-2019 11:07
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35978325)
Come to think about it, where was your outrage back when Hugh was joking about shooting dead six MPs, all Brexiteers ???
Perhaps he realised it was a joke (albeit in bad taste, apologies), rather than an actual threat?

jfman 08-01-2019 11:18
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35978342)
And to be able to ignore a democratic vote?
If there’s another democratic vote, yes.

ianch99 08-01-2019 11:29
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35978305)
I am sorry where is your fake outrage when JRM and his children were mob handed by the hard-left not many moons ago ?

I have no sympathy for Anna Soubry, she is a liar who was elected and stood on a manifesto honouring the Brexit result. She deserves all she gets, people are bloody angry out there and rightfully so - it will only manifest itself to greater levels if Brexit is halted by democracy abusers.
My outage is not fake I assure you. You may not have a problem with thugs intimidating MP's but I do ..

Mick 08-01-2019 11:36
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35978354)
My outage is not fake I assure you. You may not have a problem with thugs intimidating MP's but I do ..
Except if it's JRM and his kids or Boris.... :dozey:

---------- Post added at 11:36 ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35978349)
So you were aware of the terms of the exit deal that the UK/EU would negotiate too?
Some people just do not get it - people voted to leave the EU because they actually want to leave the EU in it's entirety, leaving meant exactly that to me - no deal all the way, we do not need to be in a 10% Economic bubble when the other 90% of it, is outside of EU, with rest of the world and we do not need to pay a con job membership fee to boot... :rolleyes:

ianch99 08-01-2019 11:55
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35978355)
Except if it's JRM and his kids or Boris.... :dozey:

---------- Post added at 11:36 ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 ----------



Some people just do not get it - people voted to leave the EU because they actually want to leave the EU in it's entirety, leaving meant exactly that to me - no deal all the way, we do not need to be in a 10% Economic bubble when the other 90% of it, is outside of EU, with rest of the world and we do not need to pay a con job membership fee to boot... :rolleyes:
Note to self: if you miss a post where someone has been (inappropriately) insulting to a politician you disagree with, you are therefore not allowed to condemn similar objectionable actions made to a politician you may agree with. Got it ..

Pierre 08-01-2019 12:06
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35978349)
So you were aware of the terms of the exit deal that the UK/EU would negotiate too?
You’re late to the party with this particular line of argument.

A so called “Hard Brexit” (although that term didn’t exist at the time) is what was on offer at the referendum.

mrmistoffelees 08-01-2019 12:20
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35978355)
Except if it's JRM and his kids or Boris.... :dozey:

---------- Post added at 11:36 ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 ----------



Some people just do not get it - people voted to leave the EU because they actually want to leave the EU in it's entirety, leaving meant exactly that to me - no deal all the way, we do not need to be in a 10% Economic bubble when the other 90% of it, is outside of EU, with rest of the world and we do not need to pay a con job membership fee to boot... :rolleyes:
You voted to leave the EU without any idea of what that may mean to the country, actually let me rephrase that you don't care what happens to the country. You just want to be out of the EU, well, you may get what you want. But lets hope you're right. Because if you're wrong, you and your ilk possibly may have screwed this country up for future generations to come. But hey, not that you care about the future generations is it? It's just about you....

Several studies show short-mid term pain with long term potential pain too. Yet, funnily enough there's nothing showing long term benefit, I wonder why that is? Before you start your usual ranting about how you don't care about what studies say, and they're wrong, perhaps instead of being the equivalent of an ostrich with it's head in the sand or a child with it's fingers in it's ears going 'la la la la, can't hear you' perhaps, just perhaps be open to the thought that these studies could be right. After all, as a remainer (or remoaner depending on the level of childishness people may wish to stoop too) I'm prepared to accept that the exit may indeed be best thing to happen to the UK show me some evidence that supports it and hey i might even change my mind. But right here, right now all the evidence suggests we're about to take a very dangerous path.

To come back to another point you keep raising regarding people fighting and dying for democracy. I admire you for your respect of our service personnel most of us have exactly the same respect and a great deal of us on this board are at an age where we lost grandparents (and some even parents) to the horrors of conflict.

However whilst we should never forget the sacrifice people made, there comes a time when it shouldn't be used as an emotive battle cry to implement policy.

We've moved on as a world, we, as human beings are strongest and produce the greatest results when we work together, There's numerous example of this the ISS, Channel Tunnel to name just two. Brexit means to many people a step backwards not just economically but also as a society.

The British Empire and it's ideology died many many years ago. Many people who voted leave seem to think the departure from the EU will reinvigorate this, quite simply, it won't


Your 10% economic bubble without 90% is out of it is also completely wrong but tbh I dont have time right now to find the figures

---------- Post added at 12:20 ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35978364)
You’re late to the party with this particular line of argument.

A so called “Hard Brexit” (although that term didn’t exist at the time) is what was on offer at the referendum.

Really, source please?

Mythica 08-01-2019 12:28
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35978368)
You voted to leave the EU without any idea of what that may mean to the country, actually let me rephrase that you don't care what happens to the country. You just want to be out of the EU, well, you may get what you want. But lets hope you're right. Because if you're wrong, you and your ilk possibly may have screwed this country up for future generations to come. But hey, not that you care about the future generations is it? It's just about you....

Several studies show short-mid term pain with long term potential pain too. Yet, funnily enough there's nothing showing long term benefit, I wonder why that is? Before you start your usual ranting about how you don't care about what studies say, and they're wrong, perhaps instead of being the equivalent of an ostrich with it's head in the sand or a child with it's fingers in it's ears going 'la la la la, can't hear you' perhaps, just perhaps be open to the thought that these studies could be right. After all, as a remainer (or remoaner depending on the level of childishness people may wish to stoop too) I'm prepared to accept that the exit may indeed be best thing to happen to the UK show me some evidence that supports it and hey i might even change my mind. But right here, right now all the evidence suggests we're about to take a very dangerous path.

To come back to another point you keep raising regarding people fighting and dying for democracy. I admire you for your respect of our service personnel most of us have exactly the same respect and a great deal of us on this board are at an age where we lost grandparents (and some even parents) to the horrors of conflict.

However whilst we should never forget the sacrifice people made, there comes a time when it shouldn't be used as an emotive battle cry to implement policy.

We've moved on as a world, we, as human beings are strongest and produce the greatest results when we work together, There's numerous example of this the ISS, Channel Tunnel to name just two. Brexit means to many people a step backwards not just economically but also as a society.

The British Empire and it's ideology died many many years ago. Many people who voted leave seem to think the departure from the EU will reinvigorate this, quite simply, it won't


Your 10% economic bubble without 90% is out of it is also completely wrong but tbh I dont have time right now to find the figures

---------- Post added at 12:20 ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 ----------




Really, source please?
:tu:

Damien 08-01-2019 12:28
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35978364)
You’re late to the party with this particular line of argument.

A so called “Hard Brexit” (although that term didn’t exist at the time) is what was on offer at the referendum.
Was it though? Few advocates of Brexit at the time were saying we would have no arrangement with the EU. Vote Leave's official site said:

Quote:
Europe yes, EU no. We have a new UK-EU Treaty based on free trade and friendly cooperation. There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it. We will take back the power to negotiate our own trade deals.
To me (Iceland to Russian border) is ETFA. The same people who backed the above campaign are now saying that's a betrayal of Brexit but it was their campaign arguing for it.

Chris 08-01-2019 12:38
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35978371)
Was it though? Few advocates of Brexit at the time were saying we would have no arrangement with the EU. Vote Leave's official site said:



To me (Iceland to Russian border) is ETFA. The same people who backed the above campaign are now saying that's a betrayal of Brexit but it was their campaign arguing for it.
Now now ... you’re not trying to redefine “hard Brexit” I hope? :scratch:

During the referendum campaign, the leave side generally advocated leaving the customs union and the single market. The remain side generally warned that leaving the EU would entail leaving the customs union and the single market.

Throughout the campaign, everyone generally agreed that if we left the EU, we would leave the customs union and the single market.

After the result, the continuity remain campaign re-branded this position “hard Brexit”, claimed that nobody voted for it, and began to agitate for “soft Brexit”, which would in essence be continuing membership of the entire EU with the exception of its decision making processes (a very obviously dumb move - too dumb even for Theresa May).

However, nowhere, until now, have I heard anyone arguing that “hard Brexit” is the same thing as “no deal” brexit. The serious likelihood of us leaving without a deal doesn’t seem to have occurred to the usual remain suspects. Sure they’ve waved it round like a witch doctor’s stick trying to scare the natives but I really don’t think they thought it would happen - I always believed they were simply trying to push the government into the safest, quickest deal possible (I.e, on e again, basically status quo, leaving the EU on paper only).

Damien 08-01-2019 12:43
Re: Brexit
 
I might be wrong actually. I thought Pierre was arguing for a no deal Brexit but now I can't see where I got the impression from.

Mick 08-01-2019 12:54
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35978368)
You voted to leave the EU without any idea of what that may mean to the country, actually let me rephrase that you don't care what happens to the country. You just want to be out of the EU, well, you may get what you want. But lets hope you're right. Because if you're wrong, you and your ilk possibly may have screwed this country up for future generations to come. But hey, not that you care about the future generations is it? It's just about you....

Several studies show short-mid term pain with long term potential pain too. Yet, funnily enough there's nothing showing long term benefit, I wonder why that is? Before you start your usual ranting about how you don't care about what studies say, and they're wrong, perhaps instead of being the equivalent of an ostrich with it's head in the sand or a child with it's fingers in it's ears going 'la la la la, can't hear you' perhaps, just perhaps be open to the thought that these studies could be right. After all, as a remainer (or remoaner depending on the level of childishness people may wish to stoop too) I'm prepared to accept that the exit may indeed be best thing to happen to the UK show me some evidence that supports it and hey i might even change my mind. But right here, right now all the evidence suggests we're about to take a very dangerous path.

To come back to another point you keep raising regarding people fighting and dying for democracy. I admire you for your respect of our service personnel most of us have exactly the same respect and a great deal of us on this board are at an age where we lost grandparents (and some even parents) to the horrors of conflict.

However whilst we should never forget the sacrifice people made, there comes a time when it shouldn't be used as an emotive battle cry to implement policy.

We've moved on as a world, we, as human beings are strongest and produce the greatest results when we work together, There's numerous example of this the ISS, Channel Tunnel to name just two. Brexit means to many people a step backwards not just economically but also as a society.

The British Empire and it's ideology died many many years ago. Many people who voted leave seem to think the departure from the EU will reinvigorate this, quite simply, it won't


Your 10% economic bubble without 90% is out of it is also completely wrong but tbh I dont have time right now to find the figures

---------- Post added at 12:20 ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 ----------




Really, source please?
Me and my ilk?

Whose being bloody divisive now?

Hypocrisy much?

That’s just typical Remainer bollocks. I do care about this country, so do not ever assume otherwise, you don’t bloody know me. I care enough to know that our country is and has been stifled for years by the EU.

And I knew what I was voting for, I won’t be told by the likes of you, ever!!!

---------- Post added at 12:54 ---------- Previous post was at 12:47 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35978364)
You’re late to the party with this particular line of argument.

A so called “Hard Brexit” (although that term didn’t exist at the time) is what was on offer at the referendum.
Agreed, mrmistofelees has missed many points from this debate.

He’s going on about Brexiteers, like me, voting to save British Empire, that’s not what I voted to leave for and I have said this before today, but because like you say, he’s late to the party, he’s missed many points from prior arguments that have been had..

mrmistoffelees 08-01-2019 12:59
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35978374)
Me and my ilk?

Whose being bloody divisive now?

Hypocrisy much?

That’s just typical Remainer bollocks. I do care about this country, so do not ever assume otherwise, you don’t bloody know me. I care enough to know that our country is and has been stifled for years by the EU.

And I knew what I was voting for, I won’t be told by the likes of you, ever!!!
Erm, because it is divisive. quite obviously.....

I can assume what i want, and funnily enough I can tell you what I want, or believe, thats the beauty of freedom of speech. You know... what people fought for?

Your attitude and subsequent refusal to listen to any other peoples point of view demonstrates to me that you couldn't give two hoots about future generations. So long as you're all right. that's my perspective/ I'm entitled to it as much as you are yours.

The difference here is Mick, my actions and those of individuals who share my viewpoint so far have not screwed this country. up for, there's a possibility however, that yours and people of your mindset may.

If I'm wrong, I'll apologise and say you know what people who voted leave were correct and we get it wrong. Are you prepared to do the same?

f you can live with yourself IF it all goes wrong without remorse or humility then as i say, you quite clearly don't give a tuppence about the future generations of our country.

We're old (ish) you and I, this is about giving future generations the best possible chance to succeed in life and the world, without the hardships that we, our parents or our grandparents had to suffer.


What is the likes of me btw ? Someone who's prepared to consider all of the options and listen to all of the opinions before preparing to leap of a cliff ?


MOD Edit: No discussion of reps in public.I expect you as a moderator to set a higher standard. obviously not.

Chris 08-01-2019 13:04
Re: Brexit
 
Jings and crivvens. Are we actually still re-running the referendum debate here?

There is a basic lack of respect on show here. If we absolutely must keep rehearsing the arguments of 2016, then our starting point, on this forum at least, should be acceptance that we came to our conclusions thoughtfully and with the best interests of our country at heart.

Believe it or not it is possible for people to have the same intentions but come to radically different conclusions about how this should be pursued. That’s what politics is.

Voting for the return of the empire is absurd and beyond parody, as is claiming remainers are all north London metro-liberals who only worry about the cost of champagne and continuing easy access to their gîte.

Damien 08-01-2019 13:11
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35978377)
remainers are all north London metro-liberals who only worry about the cost of champagne and continuing easy access to their gîte.
I mean that does describe me but still.....:D (although I don't have a gîte)

Mick 08-01-2019 13:22
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35978376)
I expect you as a moderator to set a higher standard. obviously not.
I am not actually moderator, so wrong yet again, I am one of the site owners, so in essence you are on part my property - do not disrespect it or me!!!

I am entitled to say my 2 cents any way I choose to, if you don't like it, tough - the door is over there.

mrmistoffelees 08-01-2019 13:27
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35978381)
I am not actually moderator, so wrong yet again, I am one of the site owners, so in essence you are on part my property - do not disrespect it or me!!!

I am entitled to say my 2 cents any way I choose to, if you don't like it, tough - the door is over there.

Apologies ‘site co owner’ if you can find anywhere where I’ve disrespected this site then please feel free to point it out and I’ll apologise

I’ll also assume you’ll be apologising for the disrespect inferred by the comment ‘remainer b**locks’ or bull**** (whichever one it was)

Mick 08-01-2019 13:30
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35978384)
Apologies ‘site co owner’ if you can find anywhere where I’ve disrespected this site then please feel free to point it out and I’ll apologise

I’ll also assume you’ll be apologising for the disrespect inferred by the comment ‘remainer b**locks’ or bull**** (whichever one it was)
Enough, this thread isn't about "you".

Now back on topic.

papa smurf 08-01-2019 13:30
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35978354)
My outage is not fake I assure you. You may not have a problem with thugs intimidating MP's but I do ..
How outrageous to have an outage when your on a roll ;)

ianch99 08-01-2019 14:00
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35978386)
How outrageous to have an outage when your on a roll ;)
So true! I am not sure "your on a roll" though :)

Pierre 08-01-2019 15:09
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35978368)
Really, source please?
I take it you walked around before the referendum with your fingers in your ears then?

How about the leaflet that was posted through your door, for a start.

Read Chris’s post, no point me repeating it.

Carth 08-01-2019 15:19
Re: Brexit
 
I had a strange thought at work . . and it made me chuckle . . so I'm hoping some of you clever people on here can answer something that is now puzzling me.

There are plans being made (including the recent 'test' shambles) to turn parts of motorways into huge lorry parks if a 'no deal' Brexit goes ahead . . with me so far?

The assumption is that Lorries will be delayed access to European destinations due to the change in Customs checks etc . . still with me?

So, onto my question . . . if a 'no deal' Brexit means we have no trade with the EU, where the heck are these thousands of lorries going, and what with?

it's like - the local shop ceases trading and they still expect queues of shoppers outside the door :)

Chris 08-01-2019 15:24
Re: Brexit
 
There will be trade, but there will also be customs checks, so fewer lorries per day will be able to pass through each port, especially while HMRC staff get used to things. At the moment the throughput of vehicles through our channel ports and the infrastructure for allowing them to arrive and depart is all built on the assumption that they don’t need to hang around.

It is entirely possible for the U.K. and the EU to implement trusted partner schemes that will remove most of the admin that will cause delays in the short term, but that is going to require more creativity and goodwill than has been on show thus far.

Don’t forget, it is decades since the EU has had to deal with a major, global, non-member economy on its immediate border. In a sense you have to forgive them for being so inflexible. They’ve been used to dictating terms to smaller neighbours. But we will get there, and ultimately, especially in the event of No Deal, it will be the Irish that are screaming for it, because whatever chaos you see at Dover will be wrought a hundred times worse on the entire Irish economy.

Carth 08-01-2019 15:26
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35978395)
There will be trade, but there will also be customs checks, so fewer lorries per day will be able to pass through each port, especially while HMRC staff get used to things. At the moment the throughput of vehicles through our channel ports and the infrastructure for allowing them to arrive and depart is all built on the assumption that they don’t need to hang around.
Yes I understand that, but surely there will be a massive reduction in the lorries using these facilities ;)

Damien 08-01-2019 16:02
Re: Brexit
 
Well, we're gonna find out soon enough

jonbxx 08-01-2019 16:27
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35978397)
Yes I understand that, but surely there will be a massive reduction in the lorries using these facilities ;)
It's kind of muddled to be fair because of the 'Rotterdam Effect' where a proportion of extra-EU trade for the UK goes via other ports in the EU. Currently, once goods are cleared in one EU country, they become EU goods and can be moved anywhere, including the UK. No one really traces this because, with the CM and SM, we haven't needed to beyond rough and ready calculations

Of course, after the end of March, if we go WTO and treat the EU under MFN rules, then it might be advantageous to unload and clear goods in the UK rather than a port in another country in the EU. Because of this, we probably move from Roll on-Roll off truck transport of goods internationally to containerised transport in big ships. This would need at least some expansion of our container ports such as Tilbury and Felixstowe, including transport links for trucks going to and from those ports.

So, if our imports and exports remain the same but we reduce trade with the EU, then the trucks of the UK distribution system will go to other ports - lots of short domestic hops rather than trans-continental transport.

Of course, everything comes down to cost, it may still be cheaper and more convenient to stack the trucks up at our Ro-Ro ports than restructuring our current distribution system for goods in the UK.

TL:DR - dunno.

mrmistoffelees 08-01-2019 16:29
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35978395)
There will be trade, but there will also be customs checks, so fewer lorries per day will be able to pass through each port, especially while HMRC staff get used to things. At the moment the throughput of vehicles through our channel ports and the infrastructure for allowing them to arrive and depart is all built on the assumption that they don’t need to hang around.

It is entirely possible for the U.K. and the EU to implement trusted partner schemes that will remove most of the admin that will cause delays in the short term, but that is going to require more creativity and goodwill than has been on show thus far.

Don’t forget, it is decades since the EU has had to deal with a major, global, non-member economy on its immediate border. In a sense you have to forgive them for being so inflexible. They’ve been used to dictating terms to smaller neighbours. But we will get there, and ultimately, especially in the event of No Deal, it will be the Irish that are screaming for it, because whatever chaos you see at Dover will be wrought a hundred times worse on the entire Irish economy.
As before, we chose collectively as a nation to leave, The EU can play hardball or be as inflexible as they wish. It's their club, we don't get to dictate the terms on our departure.

Chris 08-01-2019 16:51
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 35978404)
As before, we chose collectively as a nation to leave, The EU can play hardball or be as inflexible as they wish. It's their club, we don't get to dictate the terms on our departure.
We’re not trying to dictate the rules of their club. They paid scant regard to our views when we were in it, I don’t think anyone has any illusions that they are going to listen to us now.

The question is what kind of economic and security relations they want to have with one of the world’s principal powers (and no, you don’t have to be an empire-obsessed Colonel Blimp to acknowledge our position in the world), especially one they happen to share a common border with.

The problem, as I’ve said, is that they haven’t had to deal with such circumstances before. They are accustomed to dictating terms and thus far they have got away with it because the purists in Brussels have been in charge - apparatchiks who don’t answer to any electorate and won’t lose their jobs no matter how hard this hits any European economy. If we end up in a No Deal scenario there will be real-world consequences for real European voters, and inevitably European politicians will then begin to attend to their own interests.

jfman 08-01-2019 17:01
Re: Brexit
 
They paid so little regard we got £5bn back out of nastiness.

Chris 08-01-2019 17:12
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978409)
They paid so little regard we got £5bn back out of nastiness.
Au contraire - we quietly reminded the French that CAP was designed as the unofficial means by which Germany paid reparations to France after 1945, and suggested that if they wanted to continue benefiting from it, their interests would be best served by ensuring the U.K. wasn’t unuly disadvantaged by it (due to having a relatively industrialised, efficient agricultural sector). They agreed. The CAP rules continue to be wonky, they continue to subsidise France’s ludicrous 19th century farming sector, and thanks to Margaret Thatcher (and despite Tony Blair) we aren’t the ones paying for it.

Despite the loud protestations coming from the Élysée Palace, the British rebate is all about preserving French interests.

Damien 08-01-2019 17:14
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35978395)
It is entirely possible for the U.K. and the EU to implement trusted partner schemes that will remove most of the admin that will cause delays in the short term, but that is going to require more creativity and goodwill than has been on show thus far.
How would that actually work? We would still need customs checks and the delays they're estimating for such checks are measured in seconds. It's still going to be pretty quick...

jfman 08-01-2019 17:41
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35978410)
Au contraire - we quietly reminded the French that CAP was designed as the unofficial means by which Germany paid reparations to France after 1945, and suggested that if they wanted to continue benefiting from it, their interests would be best served by ensuring the U.K. wasn’t unuly disadvantaged by it (due to having a relatively industrialised, efficient agricultural sector). They agreed. The CAP rules continue to be wonky, they continue to subsidise France’s ludicrous 19th century farming sector, and thanks to Margaret Thatcher (and despite Tony Blair) we aren’t the ones paying for it.

Despite the loud protestations coming from the Élysée Palace, the British rebate is all about preserving French interests.
Sounds like not a bad deal for the French or us, all the while preserving German hegemony.

Chris 08-01-2019 18:49
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978417)
Sounds like not a bad deal for the French or us, all the while preserving German hegemony.
The point was that France would feed Germany, and Germany would pay (handsomely) for it. The formula that works out agricultural payments was devised with that in mind - that’s why it continues to work so well for France and why it doesn’t work so well for us, and why France was supportive (at the time) of the rebate. It wasn’t in their interests to have a British PM with British interests at heart, rocking the boat too hard in favour of CAP reform.

Enter Tony Blair of course and all bets were off - the French (rightly) deduced that Blair was such a Europhile they could screw some more money out of the U.K. by reducing the rebate, in return for some extremely vague words designed to suggest they might agree to talk about minor CAP reform at some point in the future.

Our rebate was reduced, with Blair’s agreement, and the CAP continues pretty much unchanged. Happily, from March the U.K. can begin devising a system of agricultural support that works for the British economy and the British environment.

Sephiroth 08-01-2019 18:52
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978417)
Sounds like not a bad deal for the French or us, all the while preserving German hegemony.
Your sarcasm does you no credit. Are you denying the truth of what Chris said?

Chris 08-01-2019 18:57
Re: Brexit
 
In an oblique way, he’s approving of one of the major faults of the EU - namely that rules imposed on all members are usually written to serve the interests of only one or two of them. The single market isn’t a free market, it is a highly regulated one, cobbled together over many years whenever one interest group or another shouted loudly enough. Manufacturers of pre-packaged, sealed bottles of olive oil being one recent, notable example.

jfman 08-01-2019 19:01
Re: Brexit
 
I’m approving of one of the benefits of the EU.

The nature of collective decision making naturally means there are “winners” in one area who are “losers” in others. The net benefit is what is important.

The idea that we can have all positives and no negatives is fantasy, but I suppose that’s never stopped Brexiteers from pushing their wet dream visions of exiting the EU.

Another sign of our Government in office but not in power. Losing a Finance Bill Amendment, the first of many in efforts to cripple the prospect of no deal Brexit.

1andrew1 08-01-2019 19:06
Re: Brexit
 
A nail in the coffin for no deal or just an irritation?
Quote:
Brexit: MPs defeat government over no-deal preparations
MPs have backed measures designed to thwart preparations for a no-deal Brexit, by defeating the government in the House of Commons.
They backed an amendment to the Finance Bill, which would limit spending on no-deal preparations unless authorised by Parliament, by 303 to 296 votes.
A number of Tory MPs are thought to have rebelled.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46803112

mrmistoffelees 08-01-2019 19:13
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35978439)
A nail in the coffin for no deal or just an irritation?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46803112
It’s a start

jfman 08-01-2019 19:42
Re: Brexit
 
These are genuinely exciting times. A Government that’d ordinarily collapse and an Opposition that’d usually intervene. However neither wants to deliver Brexit.

“We’d have gotten away with it if it wasn’t for those pesky Parliamentarians”

jonbxx 08-01-2019 19:46
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35978436)
In an oblique way, he’s approving of one of the major faults of the EU - namely that rules imposed on all members are usually written to serve the interests of only one or two of them. The single market isn’t a free market, it is a highly regulated one, cobbled together over many years whenever one interest group or another shouted loudly enough. Manufacturers of pre-packaged, sealed bottles of olive oil being one recent, notable example.
But very often, what come around goes around, especially at the committee stage. Way, way back in the day, I went on a week 'business skills' course run by the UK scientific research councils (MRC who funded me, BBRSC, PPARC, etc.) One of the activities we did was a mini COREPER session, COREPER being the EU Commissions point where member states negotiators get together to bash out new initiatives, laws and so on. The chap running this session used to be part of the UK team at COREPER.

We had to negotiate treaties on renewable energy policy, levels on an industrial pollutant and tariffs on soft fruit. I was in the 'Sweden' team and we couldn't give a monkeys about soft fruit or the pollutant as we didn't make either but was very strong on renewables. We formed an alliance where we backed Spain and Italy on their soft fruit policy in return for their support on our renewables policy. We went 'soft' on the pollutant issue to get Frances support. We were given guidelines on our 'public' position and a secret limit to how far we could vary from this position.

It was a tough three hours but it bought it home how much horse trading you can do when working on multiple issues. Concessions on olive oil bottles will be paid back somewhere else. No one gives away anything for nothing at COREPER!

Pierre 08-01-2019 20:04
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978437)
wet dream visions.
Politics has never got me that excited, but hey whatever floats your boat.

I supposed it explains a lot.

jfman 08-01-2019 20:11
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35978445)
Politics has never got me that excited, but hey whatever floats your boat.

I supposed it explains a lot.
It doesn’t excite me that much either, but prominent Brexit supporting MPs seemed to take a lot of delight telling us how great the deals we would negotiate were going to be. They can’t even agree among themselves, let along take a coherent stance to the EU or other trading partners.

papa smurf 08-01-2019 20:12
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35978439)
A nail in the coffin for no deal or just an irritation?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46803112
So if we leave without a deal and we have shortages of food/goods etc ,we the public will know which Trai- er sorry politicians to lynch.;)

Hugh 08-01-2019 20:15
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35978448)
So if we leave without a deal and we have shortages of food/goods etc ,we the public will know which Trai- er sorry politicians to lynch.;)
Ah, the old "it wasn’t me, I didn’t do it, nuffink to do with me, squire..." ploy.

papa smurf 08-01-2019 20:26
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35978449)
Ah, the old "it wasn’t me, I didn’t do it, nuffink to do with me, squire..." ploy.
It's more like you pulled the funding and caused this so now you pay squire,the harsh reality of treachery is usually an unpleasant end... up the revolution;)

mrmistoffelees 08-01-2019 20:27
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35978449)
Ah, the old "it wasn’t me, I didn’t do it, nuffink to do with me, squire..." ploy.
Why did I read this in the voice of Sgt. Detritus ?

papa smurf 08-01-2019 20:33
Re: Brexit
 
Rumours are that Aaron banks is offering a loan to fund no deal preparations.

jfman 08-01-2019 20:37
Re: Brexit
 
Is that from his diamond mining company that doesn’t seem very busy?


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