Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Strange but the thinkbroadband forums seem to not have any threads on phorm either.

http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/threads.php?Cat=

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Blimey they're all at it.

http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2008/0...avafx_privacy/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I just finished a rather lengthy email to the moneysavingexpert website. I will let people know if i get any response from martin. Now its bed time. My arthritis is killing me. Happy Phorm Fighting friends. Niters.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

After two letters to the BT Chairman's Office, followed up by two emails over a period of at least 6 weeks and finally after a phone call I made today, I have finally got my MAC key.

I was also told by the person from the Chairman's Office that if I get charged for cancelling my recently renewed contract early (just before hell broke loose), to let him know and he would cancel all the charges as he could see that I have had a lot of trouble in the past including the illegal inteception.

So everything comes to who waits eventually, so I am off and have already given my MAC to O2, so the next few days cannot come soon enough.

Colin

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"The company's Project Insight will see "instrumentation" added to PCs, mobiles and Blu-ray devices that run JavaFX, which feed data back through a special data stream to a hosted service. Codenamed Project Hydrazine, the service is run by Sun for the benefit of third parties."

Why do they always pick names that sound like toxic waste?

--

Thanks OF1975.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Post in question copied and stuck for all to find easily and see.

Thread is called:-

Links to protest at the possible deployment of Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks Mick. :tu:

This link below on the moneysaving expert site :-

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/....html?t=901747

If we can keep it near the top, it will be near a thread almost as big as this one and lots of people will see it.

I think it's best to keep it money orientated at first though, and just drip feed the message. Any help would be (and is ;)) appreciated.

Time for bed.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hopefully this should raise an eyebrow or two on MSE.

Im aware its scaremongering, but is that any worse than Phorm spin?
I figure if it gets even 3 people to look further into the matter then nope.

EDIT:
The more esoteric the name the better, it suits finantial types well and it gives management a hardon. you need only read a few mission statements to understand that a completely unconnected sequence of random vague buzzwords is the way forward.

<A breif excursion into the mind of a suit>
PHORM?
WTF does that even mean?
I dunno but it sounds high tech, means they must have boffins involved that know something other people dont.
Other people will want to understand it so they'll buy it.
This means money!
MMMMmmmmmm MONEH!
Money is good, where do i invest in order to maximise my gains from this?
ooooooh look theres a company golf tournament comming up!
[out to lunch]
</end breif excursion>

So as you can see the more technologicaly vague the name the better.
Guidelines:
Stick to substituting one letter for two or removing a letter (ie: f =ph, n = pn or qu = Q)
Greeks and romans where smart, use greek/roman gods, mythology wherever possable, abundant uses of X, Y and Z also add a tech vibe, greek alphabet is also a winner!
μPromethius or Æherzure is bound to make money on the stockmarket, it could take decades before anyone even figures out what the hell they do!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks a lot mick.

---------- Post added at 07:38 ---------- Previous post was at 07:37 ----------

I will get on that later on this morning. I don't have much time right now but you can count on it being done later :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There are a few, but they all seem to have gone quiet at the moment:

http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthre...Number=3271364
http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthre...Number=3271372
http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthre...Number=3322359

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Excellent posts to MSE - it isn't scaremongering IMHO. It would also be worth letting people on their know about the content theft angle, I'd guess some will be business owners (or investors in business that have a web site).

Also from the privacy policy on MSE "The information derived from use of cookies will be aggregated to provide statistical information about the usage of our site. However, we do not use any information derived from cookies, nor any IP addresses we collect, to identify any individual user of our site."

Whereas Phorm will impose a Phorged cookie to gather information specific to that user.

And of course - perhaps let Martin Lewis all his content will be used by Phorm to promote other web sites, and his consent is assumed.

Also from the T&Cs "You are allowed to use our content for personal, non-commercial use only". Which would mean people opting in to Phorm/Webwise and BT are clearly violating the terms of use, even if consent could be assumed

Pete.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've had a bit of a go on there:

http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthre...b=5&o=0&fpart=

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I posted it HERE..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Had a reply from Amazon.

Wonder what next I did take my concerns to my ISP and never had response then what arrived wasn't the type you expected so I moved to a phorm phree ISP..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good Morning PhormUKPRteam

Here’s a constructive suggestion. Why not persuade Kent to engineer in “dangerously addictive� to add to Phorm’s list of other undesirable, unwanted and unwelcome qualities? It worked for the tobacco industry! :devsmoke:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Then you beat me to it by one day! I only started reading this thread a couple of weeks ago but you are welcome to the domain if you want it in recognition of your post. Just set up a 123-reg account and PM me and I'll transfer it to you for zippo.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There's a new post on the thinkbroadband forums: http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthre...b=5&o=0&fpart=

It's either tin hats time or VM are up to something very naughty.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes, I've noticed this too. Even on forums where people are 'in-the-know' and tech-friendly, some folk seem to think that "I'll block the ads then, thats easy enough, it won't be a problem for me" .. completely missing the point!! .. very frustrating ..

I think the best analogy to use is comparing Phorm to 'wire-tapping' .. people snooping on your phone listening to everything you say, that might shake people up a bit ..

Great news on the sticky by the way .. :tu:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I can't be a member on there due to my ISPreview post can someone ask them to do a check on cookies for any from webwise or phorm plus a few tracerts to websites they visited. The information is needed to prove if VM are now doing secret trials without Informed consent.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Can you Post this link on the Forum Above, I've already got too many Forums in my list.

https://www.grc.com/stm/shootthemessenger.htm

This particular User or Malware may have enabled the Windows Messenger Service.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Done

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Steve Gibson at grc.com is heavily into web security, I wonder what he thinks about all this?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Also done

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

How Google currently responds to suspected spyware;

http://sorry.google.com/sorry/

We're sorry... ... but your query looks similar to automated requests from a computer virus or spyware application. To protect our users, we can't process your request right now. ... if you suspect that your computer or network has been infected, you might want to run a virus checker or spyware remover

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

wonder if that is there way to protect the searches from phorm nice if it is.

Thank you jelv will monitor it for the replies.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Steve to date has not said anything about Phorm or its US equivalents, which I find quite surprising - I follow his newsgroups and Security Now podcast (as pdf transcript) and not a word.

To try and stir some interest I added a comment to a posting on his grc.news.feedback newsgroup where I know he posts. Steve is currently doing a lot of work in cookies, so surely this is up his street. You can see my post in the thread at http://12078.net/grcnews/article.php...feedback#71899 (as Dave Sergeant) and it has currently generated one interesting reply, but nothing from Steve yet. If you want to reply you need to subscribe to grc.news.feedback at news.grc.com

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Dave from that link I found the talk of what Phorm is amusing but totally honest not sure if we are allowed to quoted from that site would be good if we can..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I suggest you ask him via the suggested newsgroup.

Indexing by Google or other Sources is strongly discouraged, but as far as I know he has no objection to individual Information Links & requests for information on Security Privacy Issues.

I believe he is acutely aware of the current situation concerning Phorm & other such Technologies, his "Up & Coming Cookie Forensics System" being part of this overall picture.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You are more than welcome to the domain, I'm sure you will make much better use of it than I!:D

Feel free to use any ani phorm phrases that might pop out of what I laughingly call my brain as well, including t shirt printing etc.

I'm trying to focus on joe public.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's reassuring - still puzzles me though, comparing that with what looked like PhormPRTeam spin which is what I got from Amazon when I wrote on the same topic-

Dear Customer,

What makes the technology behind OIX and Webwise truly groundbreaking is that it takes consumer privacy protection to a new level. Our technology doesn't store any personally identifiable information or IP addresses, and we don't retain information on user browsing behaviour. So we never know - and can't record - who's browsing, or where they've browsed.

If you have any concerns, please highlight them to your internet service provider.

Thank you for shopping at Amazon.co.uk

Please let us know if this e-mail answered your question:



Still waiting for the final reply.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks! Unfortunately despite my fits of posting I do have major work commitments too but I'll see what I can do. I genuinely thought I'd got there first but as ever it is usually the case that one has picked it up from somewhere, and besides there's very rarely such a thing as a truly unique idea, which somewhat makes a mockery of certain systems designed to protect intellectual "property". Many groups and composers fighting to protect their royalties owe their success to the society in which they developed, including every piece of music they ever listened to. Except perhaps John Cage.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm not impressed with the number of one particular party who have signed the Early Day Motion:

Conservative Party 3
Democratic Unionist Party 4
INDEPENDENT LABOUR 1
Labour Party 13
Liberal Democrats 23
Social Democratic and Labour Party 1

My (Conservative) MP hasn't even responded to the message I sent urging him to sign.

Looks like another round of letters to those whose MPs haven't signed is needed.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I sort of told them that if they were part of the OIX platform I would be closig my accout with them and buying elsewere. also... :) Pointed out I felt so strong fro my online security. Since I have been buying xmas present supplying uni books etc from them I have bought a lot..

Back onto Phorm a member who hasn't posted has offered to host the capts videos of the public meeting I have alink to this website have sent one to Alexander just not sure if we should post public of pass it around over pms?

link to the videos for any one still need to see the public meeting www.buttonclicker.com

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This Site is also back on line at the moment.
http://tobymeres.net/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Possibly the more different hostings it is on the better.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thought this might amuse you all. My husband was filling in a Ciao survey this afternoon and this was one of the survey pages:

http://www.biro-art.net/arkenford.jpg

Wonder if the survey BT did was presented like this. I also wonder what advertising company this part of the Ciao survey was conducted on behalf of - could it be phorm perhaps?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

some interesting "Calls for tenders" from this page, some of which relate very much to the EU DPA and the Data Protection 29 working party i have linked to in the past.

and recently mentioned by (which hat am i wearing in this post or it might be a personal Opinion ;) ) simon and the potential of a future UK/EU/US trade war!

it might also help if you can see last nights more four "true stories thin/Taking Liberties" program to see how all this might fit together in the future....
http://www.channel4.com/video/true-s...s/catchup.html
"This polemical and irreverent film examines how our fundamental rights are being systematically undermined in the current climate of fear."


http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/fun...tm#117940-2008

as referenced from the
http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/fsj...s/index_en.htm
Data Protection — European Commission

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just messing around, whaddayathink?


BTrayal

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Check this out..

http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/deta...ail&id=4020481

phrom iii boards

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I got a reply from the office of one of my MEP's .. Caroline Lucas of the Green party.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It probably does exist in Vista, however it will however be turned off by default (XP is also disabled by default post SP2? i think)

Its actualy a usefull feature over large intranets (IE used validly) ut it got too open to abuse.

We used to use it in uni via command line (net send [network address] "Message") untill the admins clocked on and disabled the service.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

from the getting the word out department, it might have been a good way to let the non tech users know about being illegally DPI intercepted by your ISP if it were possible :angel:

and direct them to an informative InPhormed webpage such as the many we have in this thread to get more facts.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

More information about these Services can be found here:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messenger_Service
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MailSlot

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

NIce one. Thanks Mick :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So, have Virgin Media changed their terms and conditions under the radar?

certainly looks like it over at ispreview

If this is correct, shouldn't customers be inphormed that T&C's have changed?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I see it's had quite a few hits. Might have to register ;)

Difficult for us lot to keep money saving as part of our posts there as we see the bigger picture issues, but must try :dunce:

Hanco

---------- Post added at 18:20 ---------- Previous post was at 18:09 ----------

Someone should make the point (on the Money Saving Expert site) that Martin Lewis works really hard to get his messages out and marketing via the media. His Money Saving Expert email is completely opt in. It's wrong that Kent should be so intrusive and sneaky in the way he wants to operate his marketing method...

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/...tml?p=10755765

Hank

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oooh, there's a poll now.

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/....html?t=901747

Proper market research questions too.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think Steve has just replied to your Post.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Quote:

2 - BT say they are working on an cookie-free way for customers to opt-IN to the Webwise trial. (management email to me) - ie: they are having to retrofit the model to fit the legal position - this is not the model that was originally designed by Phorm and offered to ISP's.


http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/deta...ail&id=4021991

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just one of my alter egos - first post on a share price forum.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thought it might be a Forum member but did not wish to say so outright.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Am I reading this right? Phorm shares took a serious beating today and closed at 12.5? Or are the iii charts being crap again (they have a habit of being very slow to catch up I have noticed).

Phorm are in the danger zone now, I was talking to a financial expert in the media last week who felt if Phorm shares dropped below 12.00 they have lost and people will just dump everything they have (in his opinion). Phorm share price is being watched very closely by the traders and analysts at the moment and is classed as a very high risk stock. As many of you know I had a 1 hour long chat with a journalist from the Financial Times last week who is writing an article on exactly that issue (high risk technology stocks) which is due to be published in the Investors Chronicle in the near future.

Keep the pressure up folks.

Sorry I have been quiet the last couple of days I am up to my neck in uni work and have two pieces due in on Friday (one of which is my dissertation). I have to confess I find it very difficult to motivate myself to do mundane coursework (such as decision support systems) when I am working on such a huge issue as Phorm.

I want to see that share price drop into the 1100 zone tomorrow.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alexander,

You are reading the share price wrong

It lost 12.5p today

The shares are trading at 1375p at the moment

More bad news can some change that though , I am surprised that the delay to the BT trials has not had some effect yet

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

MS Money showing them at 1250p, down 137.5p

http://moneycentral.msn.com/detail/s...ol=GB:PHRM&v=1

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I prefer these charts
http://finance.google.co.uk/finance?q=phorm
dunno how often they are updated but its nice to see the annotations with the 'news events' and to be able to change the date range by sliding the two controls under the graph.

Update -
according to LSE closing price was 1,375.00

http://www.lse.co.uk/SharePrice.asp?shareprice=PHRM

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This was you? Do you actually have this email? Sorry I don't doubt you, I would however like a copy if that's okay - like to read between the lines.

As you know, and as I posted earlier, I put a letter to BT outlining my concerns about the cookie model and I really do like to think they actually are listening. You never know I may actually stay on as a customer when my 18-month contract expires this summer.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Looks like there was a trade of £50k, marked as a delayed publication. Google had reported it closed in the mid 1300's, but has now updated.

http://www.lse.co.uk/ShareTrades.asp...re=phorm_reg_s

Unfortunately, the volumes are still low. When we see the £million sales, we will know they are on the out.

My thoughts on this are that most of the small investors have got out now and the vast majority of stock is held by bigger bods who are more likely to play a longer game, but i'm certainly no expert.

Look out for shoreing tomorrow - £5K trades a quid above the going rate. Money straight out of Kents coffers.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

According to iii there was a sale of 4000 shares at 12.50 at 16:46 this afternoon (total value of sale £50000) which is why I asked if their charts and summary were being slow at updating again. Certainly 50 000 / 12.50 = 4000 but there is a ? next to sell in the "Type" column.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Maybe the guy at the register needs a poke about getting a BT response about the delay in the trial.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

it looks like they have but what concerns me is this section g2

By having the services we provide installed in your home and/or by using them you are giving us your consent to use your personal information together with other information for the purposes of providing you with our services, service information and updates, administration, credit scoring, customer services, training, TRACKING use of our services (including processing call, usage, billing, viewing and interactive data), PROFILING YOUR USAGE and PURCHASEING PREFERENCES for so long as you are a customer and for as long as is necessary for these specified purposes after you terminate your services. We may occasionally use third parties to process your personal information in the ways outlined above. THESE third parties are permitted to use the data only in accordance with our instructions.

NOW TAKE A LOOK AT G7

By having our services installed in your home and/or by using them you consent to our transferring your information to countries which do not provide the same level of data protection as the UK if necessary for providing the services. If we do make such a transfer, we will put a contract in place to ensure your information is protected

now thats a worry

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That is very worrying can see most VM customers details out on the open market I thought all ofshore had to be our DATA protection so Kent can have our details in Russia or China or anywhere he decides to put his servers for cheapness..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

...I'm reminded that according to current holding.... 22% of ANY share losses are realized by 'that polite american gentleman'... pmsl :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I posted this on badphorm a while ago, but with Berkett now talking about reducing churn, seems more apt:

From the patent here:
http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?...3&DISPLAY=DESC

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I note how in the patent they discuss throwing ads at people looking at competitors, my real concern is how long before they simply block the competitors? Also, how is advertising your own services classed as "relevant targeted advertising" if the subscriber is actually browsing nothing but your competitors? To me it would seem wholly irrelevant advertising.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You should post this useful information over at iii for the investors (the ones that want to get out before losing their shirts).

Btw keep up your work with your studies, I too found a fantastic project to engross myself with about a month before my finals. :rofl:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am not registered on iii and have no urge to do so. But feel free to paste me :)

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good luck Alexander and all others who are in uni with work to be handed in. Is your dissertation the phorm work Alexander?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

the UK's higher company management are responsible for having lots of 'dodgy' T&C (otherwise known as unlawful) clauses inserted into the consumer contracts , just because its stated in the T&C consumer contract ,doesnt make it absolute in UK law.

good faith, contractual equal rights as regards the consumer contracts is set in stone, as is mandated 'written notice' and the forms it must take to constitute said UK legal rules to protect and inform the UK consumer.

just as an example, this
"for so long as you are a customer and for as long as is necessary for these specified purposes after you terminate your services"
part of the clause, can be deemed unlawful and so the WHOLE clause becomes invalid under the unfair terms legislation for instance....

as i have already said, whoever drew up this latest T&C needs to be given their P45 or retreave the retainer , and VM (in this case) need to pay a real consumer contracts legal team to re-write them to the factual UK law thats fair, equal, and "in good faith" for both partys.....

just to be clear, there is no Uk law or statute that permits the retension of, processing of, or exporting to the 3rd party of YOUR data (never mind personal data) after a consumer contract has been terminated.

and thats before you even consider any seperate official DPA notices you may have instructed them to comply with.

the consumer contract is no longer in legal play, so no clauses (to the companys favour) in that said contract can be deemed in force...Ever.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Noticed this letter in yesterday's Independent. Couldn't see it mentioned here.

Privacy? What have you got to hide?

Sir: I have been a dissatisfied Virgin Media customer for about 18 months. Since I am about to move house, I contacted the Virgin Media customer-service centre to request the cancellation of my broadband service. The customer service representative gave me the standard spiel: "Can I ask why you don't want to continue your subscription – we can move your service to your new address" and so on. I did not want to get into my reasons for leaving, but he was very insistent. In the end, I gave in and told him that I objected to Virgin Media's adoption of the controversial web-tracking technology known as Phorm/Webwise/OIX.

His response was predictable: "I don't think you understand this properly, let me explain...", to which I replied that not only was I fully aware of the inner workings of the technology (being an IT professional), but I objected to it on principle and saw it as a breach of my privacy.

His response was unbelievable. He said: "So, have you got something to hide then, Tom?"

After a pause, I asked whether he was insinuating that I was a terrorist or a paedophile, to which he replied "Well, it's pretty clear you have something to hide."

I am pursuing this matter with Virgin Media and have been assured by a manager that this was a one-off incident. I am slightly suspicious of this assertion, however, as call-centre employees are trained to follow scripts and to respond to questions in specific ways.

Tom Cunliffe

Oxford
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...an-821624.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Doesn't this just refer to the TV service? ie They are talking about film or catchup purchases, not Amazon.com purchases?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The reason for the difference in the share prices I believe is that the last ACTUAL trade was for 1250, but at market close the asking price for phorm shares (those that want to sell) was 1,375.25 and the bid price (those that want to buy) was 1,374.75.

I would imagine that the ask/bid price is probably the more relevant as it represents the buy/sell orders in the market at that time.

Regards...

T

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

An article on Motley Fool - might have some leverage on how VM/Phorm 'ask the question' regarding the Opt Out.
It appears that the question could be classed as misleading if it doesn't give the full details.

Colin

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Nah the market closes at the last trade price (buy or sell) or at least that is what it has been doing for the last 3 months with Phorm stock (which is when I started to monitor it). Seems this was just a late posting and hasn't been updated on the markets yet.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A few years ago when I was a VM customer (on BT now) I started to get a large amount of spam, so I created a new email address and it was fairly unique and personal to me. After a while, that too got a large amount of spam, so I created a new email address, something along the lines of agkf72hd9@virgin.net.

When this started to get spam I accused VM of harvesting customer email addresses, which they obviously denied. Well their BB (non cable) service was getting really bad by then so I jumped ship to BT.

Just by chance I noticed the 1 MONTH TERMINATION CLAUSE which makes it pretty much impossible to change supplier using your MAC without losing some money (or if it's not then I'd like to hear how). So I waited 2 weeks before using my MAC and BT were really quick so I paid VM a month for doing b_ all.

Anyway I guess what I'm trying to say is that the customer data is already in the public domain, even though VM won't admit it. The minute they shipped data oversees (if indeed they did) is the time everything went on the open market.

BTW nice post serial referring to churn rate. Must have missed it on Badphorm. Someone should write to OFCOM about this patent and Phorm, and also the Competition Comission. Imagine the potential of being denied access to competitor ISPs websites because you've shown behaviour indicating you're looking around. OUTRAGEOUS.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes - I've got a collection of emails mostly from Emma Sanderson but a smattering from the CEO office and one from Adam Liversage - most of what I have had I have posted already, verbatim, either here or on BT Beta or both, but without the senders name - generally posted in a Q&A format.

Which bit were you interested in?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It gets reported differently, for example look at the google or yahoo charts and the price they quote in text is the last trade and shows as the closing price as you say, but look at the chart and that shows a different price.

Although I think I have confused the original query. As you say it is possible that the trade was reported late. Reuters update their end of day data twice a day, the second update is a few hours delayed and provides adjusted figures for exactly this sort of thing.

T

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I thought the overseas clause in the T&C's was so they could operate their overseas call centres.

Another example of something outwardly reasonable wrapped around a trud.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Quick calculation shows how much this negative publicity has cost them. Reuters are showing their 52 week high as £37.25 and they closed today at £12.50.

Their highest share capital in the last 52 weeks has therefore been £454M and today as a result of that last trade it stands at bang on £150M (based on the £12.50 sale at the end of the day) or £167.3M if you don't take that £12.50 sale into account.

I expect Kent is more than a little upset that the negative publicity has knocked around £300M off his share capital.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

anyone progressing on legal action, whats happened with Mr manwairing !!!

or a judicial review

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The fact that they have been working on a cookie free method of being opted out (or not opted in, they've been a bit vague on that) has been known for a while
http://www.ispreview.co.uk/news/EkpAuVukuVwRJunjrr.html
http://www.clickz.com/showPage.html?page=3629297
and confirmed to me by email by Adam Liversage
also in the locked Webwise FAQ thread post on beta forums - post by Adam Liversage
http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/me...ID=14212#14212

Separate emails to me from Emma Sanderson did not contain this information although it was in the public realm at the time they were sent.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This, sadly, doesn't surprise me. When my husband signed up with NTL years ago, they got confused with his double-barrelled surname and made a slight typo in the spelling which they've never corrected. Despite explicitly ticking all the relevant boxes refusing consent for his info to be passed to third parties, my husband has regularly received junk mail addressed to this mis-spelt name. No prizes for guessing who sold his personal details. :mad:

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal - Would you be opting out?
 

Nothing is installed on your computer, so it can't be spyware.

Lots of sites already track your visits, usage and purchases. Further more outside of your computer if you use Tesco Clubcard, Nectar cards etc. then all of your purchases are tracked, and offers come via Royal Mail, (the only difference these offers and vouchers give you money off products you buy in store).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes they are a bit vague on "Opt Out" aren't they?

If you look at all their communications they are almost too obviously averse to using those two actual words.

They say customers can choose to "Opt In" but to opt out customers will select "not to take part".

This is marketing at work, PR... It helps obfuscate and complicate not opting in. It's minor and some would say pedantic but but every little helps in their naughty mission on the marketing front! (IMHO)

Hank

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Be aware that dictionary attacks do occur and that even addresses that haven't been created yet can get spam - which of course starts as soon as the address goes live. If your address is an alphanumeric combination it can easily be created on a purely random basis by software designed to churn out all possible combinations of digits and letters for popular domains like hotmail, btinternet.com etc.

The receipt of spam on an email address is not itself proof that the address has been passed to a third party.

Also be aware that anyone you ever emailed using that address, has that address on their machine, and if they get infected by an email harvesting bit of malware, will be responsible for that address getting harvested. (which is why I hate round robin emails that put my address along with a hundred others in the Cc or To fields).

From what you have said it is not clear that VM sold your address.

---------- Post added at 22:39 ---------- Previous post was at 22:35 ----------

There is a paper waiting to be written, collecting all the deliberately vague things that BT have said or avoided saying about this wretched technology. But we're not stupid! What they don't seem to realise is that their customers have been treated to so much BS over the years that we have developed advanced sensitivity to it and can detect it at a thousand yards. Like when any marketing type uses that word "experience" - as in traffic interception experience, overseas outsourced linguistic obstruction experience, call waiting experience, automatic voice messaging frustration experience etc etc etc.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

With all due respect what you are saying about a random attack is simply not possible. If you actually took the time and worked out the maths you would realised that even for a 5 character alpha-numeric string there are 60 million combinations. If the spammer sent 2 emails per second it will still take a year to complete the send.

Furthermore I run several domains and I've never seen the type of spam you indicate. I've seen dictionary and name combinations and even some name + numeric but never random.

The email I chose was longer than 5 characters and random. I never used it other than to do the test. There is every reason to *suggest* it leaked, but no *evidence*.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal - Would you be opting out?
 

I believe that this is officially classified as
Intra-ISP_spyware ;)

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal - Would you be opting out?
 

Possibly this is more evil and even harder to do anything about if you let it get installed!!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Going back through the PR it does look as if they originally intended to go ahead with the trials with the opt-out cookie, and then maybe move to a non-cookie based system if the privacy lobbying became too hot. However, it looks like inter alia the ICO report spooked them re the legal position and is holding up the trials while they reconfigure. Probably also the cost of doing this and impact of opt-in is causing some internal tensions not to mention involving other parts of BT who may need convincing that this is a good thing to do. So if the trials don't go ahead it will obviously tell us something about phorm's long term future in the UK, but I believe so too will it if they decide to 'publish and be damned' and go ahead with a cookie based trial exposing BT to potentially substantial financial penalties.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

For your attention:

Over on BadPhorm we have a thread about the Marketing/Sales conmen absolutely fearing the "Opt-in" nuclear option as directed by the ICO for their unwanted industry 'peddling junk' (also known as 'advertising').

Marketers: Opt-In Would Be 'Armageddon'
http://badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugins/f...topic.php?5348

If you follow the thread you will come to an exchange between myself and Cowherd regarding the take up of WebLies by Phorm****.

Cowherd gives his estimate to be ">50% opt-in" whereas I state the takeup will be very VERY small, a figure supported by CF forum
~ 96% say Ph**koff
~ 4% yes please, and can you take a dump on my dinner plate while your at it.

Anyhow another poll has been brought to my attention by felixcatuk (CF's very own deformation guy) that is currently running at 100%. Please feel free to register your vote here as well.

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=901747&highlight=Phorm

as of checking now (23:30 7th May 2008) that figure is based on 22 voters.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks for the 'sticky' Mick and to all who supported the idea :).

Y'know, VM have an unprecedented marketing coup staring them in the face. All they have to do is make a categoric announcement that they will NOT sign up to webwise and that they welcome new customers who want to avoid the whole disgrace and Bob's yer uncle fanny's yer aunt.

This is by far their best move. The Internet is the property of users not providers. Testing that is a risk akin to opening pandoras box. Light the blue touch paper and stand well back....

Oh, and if you've just joined this great forum, read here! Sorry guys, I couldn't resist it!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Q) Do you want to join Webwise for free and receive anti-phishing protection and more relevant advertising?

A) 90% say "yes please" as they bend over and drop their metaphorical pants.

:monkey::monkey::monkey:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

And I've reworked the home page of http://www.inphormationdesk.org/ to include a summary and Kursk's excellent list. Any comments to the usual places - the site is for everyone to contribute to.

---------- Post added at 00:11 ---------- Previous post was yesterday at 23:52 ----------

The more people who point this out to them, the better. You can see the same suggestion at http://www.inphormationdesk.org/Samp...il_Berkett.pdf

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I got a gmail account and had all NTLworld emails directed to that and let gmail sort the spam out made life much easier for me.
Most try to arrrange the last week mind I have read where some have been given MAC keys which BT have said are incorrect so you were lucky to escape in one month.
Best not start cold calling my number or I will get TPS onto them since I registered with them to stop the cold calling selling me stuff I didn't ask for, strange considering I was ex directory.

the more I read the happier I am that I have already moved to a phorm phree ISP.



Maybe they have since I have been told in confidance that it is more when it is applied more than if..
Plug away and be proud of your efforts it is the only way to win.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The trouble with Virgin Media is the same problem that seems to inflict Mr G Brown - Dithering. Both claim to listen, but both prove by their actions that reality and what goes inside their heads are worlds apart.

Take the bull by the horn VM and put a rudder on the rocking boat and sail to the land of common sense and leave the bad 'Phorm' behind. Their is absolutely no way that Virgin Media will come out more profitable if they hang around with Kentski boys.

VM are not just dealing with a rational and understandable dislike of Phorm. Phorm seem to be absolutely and unconditionally despised by most of their ever growing numbers of opponents. Whether it is because of reasons similar to myself that have had dealings with 121 Media (Phorm) and their invasive spyware on PC's and the general mistrust that goes with it, or whether the opposition have legal reasons why Phorm wire tapping stinks, the anti-Phorm campaign will never stop or go away. Until Phorm and their illegal Webwise product is defeated, any ISP associated with webwise will be seen as a social Pirahia by lots of its customers. If that is the ongoing publicity Virgin Media seek - you are very foolish. Nip this in the head now before your standing becomes a joke! Don't fall into the Microsoft trap. If you provide an operating system, don't provide addons that have nothing to do with that basic functionality. Vista is a clear example. (And all the EU fines :-)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I don't know if VM are feeling pressure over this or not. Perhaps they are just sitting smugly on the fence letting BT take the flak.

What I do know is that we are in the lull before the storm and everyone is waiting to hammer BT. When their trial is out the way (?), VM go under the spotlight.

Nobody is really taken in by last weeks announcement and we will all be a lot better informed by the time VM come to try this.

Yep, they could be mopping up BT customers by the bucket load, and we would all be helping to spread the message. That would be proper advertising, on the cheap as well.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

MAN THATS A GOOD FIND!

Does anyone have a link to the actual opt-in/out/shake-it-all-about agreement?

I mean theres cause here under the new legislation to impose that it explains in laymans therms that "Webwise offers you an anti-phishing service whilst also reading through everything you do online! would you like us to search all your packets in order to keep you safe from hacked websites?"

I can see phorm shares rock bottoming after this new bombshell.
Yet another law to break in a greatly increasing list :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Checking my e-mail, unfortunately Mark W of the BT forum can't join us for a cozy chat.

He kindly suggests that I contact an Adam L via the BT press office instead.

(Surnames shortened by me)

Do the BT bods here think that Adam, and perhaps, the BT press office would like to join us on CF for a bit of a natter? One can only try.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

if you beleave kent, there is not opt-in/out agreement, its all down to the ISPs to chose their options, yeah right.......

on another right's related but OT subject to consider.
http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...s-due-councils
"
Lie detectors extend their reach to social security helplines

No they're not, yes they are, no they're not....

By Mark Ballard: Wednesday, 07 May 2008, 5:49 PM

THE GOVERNMENT has put £1.5million up for another round of lie detector test pilots for social security helplines run by local authorities in the UK.

"



here a link to The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 as mentioned on MF.

Made
2008
Coming into force
26th May 2008


http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2008/dra...110811574_en_1
The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008

this section is most interesting on a very quick skim
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2008/dra..._en_2#pt2-l1g5
Misleading actions
"
(3) A commercial practice satisfies the conditions of this paragraph if—
(a) it concerns any marketing of a product (including comparative advertising) which creates confusion with any products, trade marks, trade names or other distinguishing marks of a competitor; or
(b) it concerns any failure by a trader to comply with a commitment contained in a code of conduct which the trader has undertaken to comply with, if—
(i) the trader indicates in a commercial practice that he is bound by that code of conduct, and
(ii) the commitment is firm and capable of being verified and is not aspirational,
and it causes or is likely to cause the average consumer to take a transactional decision he would not have taken otherwise, taking account of its factual context and of all its features and circumstances.
"

and this is just to much fun to leave out here ;)

"
Aggressive commercial practices

7.—(1) A commercial practice is aggressive if, in its factual context, taking account of all of its features and circumstances—
(a) it significantly impairs or is likely significantly to impair the average consumer’s freedom of choice or conduct in relation to the product concerned through the use of harassment, coercion or undue influence; and
(b) it thereby causes or is likely to cause him to take a transactional decision he would not have taken otherwise.

(2) In determining whether a commercial practice uses harassment, coercion or undue influence account shall be taken of—
(a) its timing, location, nature or persistence;
(b) the use of threatening or abusive language or behaviour;
(c) the exploitation by the trader of any specific misfortune or circumstance of such gravity as to impair the consumer’s judgment, of which the trader is aware, to influence the consumer’s decision with regard to the product;
(d) any onerous or disproportionate non-contractual barrier imposed by the trader where a consumer wishes to exercise rights under the contract, including rights to terminate a contract or to switch to another product or another trader; and
(e) any threat to take any action which cannot legally be taken.

(3) In this regulation—
(a) “coercion” includes the use of physical force; and
(b) “undue influence” means exploiting a position of power in relation to the consumer so as to apply pressure, even without using or threatening to use physical force, in a way which significantly limits the consumer’s ability to make an informed decision.
"

---------- Post added at 03:31 ---------- Previous post was at 03:02 ----------

it just gets better and better ;)

part 3
OFFENCES
"Offences relating to unfair commercial practices

8.—(1) A trader is guilty of an offence if—
(a) he knowingly or recklessly engages in a commercial practice which contravenes the requirements of professional diligence under regulation 3(3)(a);..."

"
Penalty for offences

13. A person guilty of an offence under regulation 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12 shall be liable—
(a) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum; or
(b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or both...."

"
Offences committed by bodies of persons

15.—(1) Where an offence under these Regulations committed by a body corporate is proved—
(a) to have been committed with the consent or connivance of an officer of the body, or
(b) to be attributable to any neglect on his part,
the officer as well as the body corporate is guilty of the offence and liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly.
(2) In paragraph (1) a reference to an officer of a body corporate includes a reference to—
(a) a director, manager, secretary or other similar officer; and
(b) a person purporting to act as a director, manager, secretary or other similar officer.
(3) Where an offence under these Regulations committed by a Scottish partnership is proved—
(a) to have been committed with the consent or connivance of a partner, or
(b) to be attributable to any neglect on his part,
the partner as well as the partnership is guilty of the offence and liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly.
(4) In paragraph (3) a reference to a partner includes a person purporting to act as a partner."

hmm, this parts odd, guilty until proven innocent ?????, not sure i like that part.... an accused person has to prove innocence ?, perhaps im misreading it as i skim the text!

"
Due diligence defence

17.—(1) In any proceedings against a person for an offence under regulation 9, 10, 11 or 12 it is a defence for that person to prove—"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

From Motley Fool

"Well, from 26 May, we shall also have new and improved protection with The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008. If a business uses any unfair practice, it should be covered under these new rules."

Any significance of that date and the (new) proposed start of the BT trials?