Cable Forum - British culture

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Re: British culture

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36077700)

Well, I would not be worried by the fact that out of the 3.3 million Muslims in the U.K. (1.36%).

(and it’s not 44,994 membership, it’s that they have the capacity to have 44,994 members).

<SNIP>

It didn't take more than 10,000 thugs out of whatever was Germany's population in 1933 to get control of the streets through bullying and fear. And with that democracy disappeared.

Re: British culture

Ah, reductio ad Hitlerum.

I hereby invoke the first corollary of Godwin’s Law.

Re: British culture

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077701)

It didn't take more than 10,000 thugs out of whatever was Germany's population in 1933 to get control of the streets through bullying and fear. And with that democracy disappeared.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36077705)

Ah, reductio ad Hitlerum.

I hereby invoke the first corollary of Godwin’s Law.

That’s not what happened...

Quote:

In 1930 Hitler made an alliance with the Nationalist Alfred Hugenberg in a campaign against the Young Plan, a second renegotiation of Germany’s war reparation payments. With the help of Hugenberg’s newspapers, Hitler was able for the first time to reach a nationwide audience. The alliance also enabled him to seek support from many of the magnates of business and industry who controlled political funds and were anxious to use them to establish a strong right-wing, antisocialist government. The subsidies Hitler received from the industrialists placed his party on a secure financial footing and enabled him to make effective his emotional appeal to the lower middle class and the unemployed, based on the proclamation of his faith that Germany would awaken from its sufferings to reassert its natural greatness. Hitler’s dealings with Hugenberg and the industrialists exemplify his skill in using those who sought to use him. But his most important achievement was the establishment of a truly national party (with its voters and followers drawn from different classes and religious groups), unique in Germany at the time.

Unremitting propaganda, set against the failure of the government to improve conditions during the Depression, produced a steadily mounting electoral strength for the Nazis. The party became the second largest in the country, rising from 2.6 percent of the vote in the national election of 1928 to more than 18 percent in September 1930. In 1932 Hitler opposed Hindenburg in the presidential election, capturing 36.8 percent of the votes on the second ballot. Finding himself in a strong position by virtue of his unprecedented mass following, he entered into a series of intrigues with conservatives such as Franz von Papen, Otto Meissner, and President Hindenburg’s son, Oskar. The fear of communism and the rejection of the Social Democrats bound them together. In spite of a decline in the Nazi Party’s votes in November 1932, Hitler insisted that the chancellorship was the only office he would accept. On January 30, 1933, Hindenburg offered him the chancellorship of Germany.

Re: British culture

It's exactly what happened. A few thousand thugs controlled the streets and they became the official thugs via SS/Gestapo.

.

Re: British culture

Happy St George's Day. :waving:

Re: British culture

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36077707)

That’s not what happened...

Godwin’s Law requires mere invocation of Nazis, not an accurate understanding of them. Actually, inaccuracy is probably what causes Godwin’s Law to exist at all.

Re: British culture

Wasn't aimed at you, Chris - sorry if it seemed that way.

---------- Post added at 08:40 ---------- Previous post was at 08:38 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077711)

It's exactly what happened. A few thousand thugs controlled the streets and they became the official thugs via SS/Gestapo.

.

No, that was after he got into power - he got into power by being backed by right wing industrialists and right wing newspapers, which drove up his share of the vote.

Re: British culture

End of the day if the Allies did not cripple Germanys economy after WWI Hitler would have had a much harder time getting the support. On top of that once Hitler did start his take over of ex patriot states the Allies did nothing until Poland

Thinking about it it is a good job Oswald Mosley was not as successful as Hitler

History is never simple

Re: British culture

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36077734)

Wasn't aimed at you, Chris - sorry if it seemed that way.

---------- Post added at 08:40 ---------- Previous post was at 08:38 ----------

No, that was after he got into power - he got into power by being backed by right wing industrialists and right wing newspapers, which drove up his share of the vote.

.... and the people I'm talking about will be democratically elected by reason of their numbers and then the thug element will start running things. That's the scenario I'm posing while you're fiddling with the square root of historic detail.

Re: British culture

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077748)

.... and the people I'm talking about will be democratically elected by reason of their numbers and then the thug element will start running things. That's the scenario I'm posing while you're fiddling with the square root of historic detail.

And, as has been pointed out repeatedly before, the numbers you are positing don’t add up - the Pew Report stated that even with medium migration (which is unlikely, as recent Governments have restricted immigration), Muslims will not exceed 16% of the U.K. population by 2050.

You ignore the fact that 2nd Generation immigrants have smaller families than 1st generation, so the growth rate you fear isn’t likely to happen.

https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...n-myth/545318/

Quote:

Although Muslims make up less than 10 percent of the total population in each of these countries, perceived overpopulation has been at the center of anti-immigration discourse. About 7.5 percent of France is Muslim, yet on average French people believe Muslims constitute about one in three people in the country. Although Muslim women in Western Europe do currently have more children than their non-Muslim counterparts, research shows that European Muslims’ fertility rate is also declining much faster, so their fertility rates will likely converge over time.

https://www.prb.org/muslimsineurope/

Quote:

EUROPEAN MUSLIMS SHOW FERTILITY DECLINES

In their study, Westoff and Frejka sift through the available data to estimate the level and trends in childbearing among European Muslims. They show that although Muslim immigrants do have more children than other Europeans, their fertility tends to decline over time, often faster than among non-Muslims.

In Austria, for example, Muslim women had a total fertility rate (an estimate of lifetime births per woman) of 3.1 children per woman in 1981, well above the 1.7 average for the majority Roman Catholic women. By 2001, the rate for Catholics had fallen to 1.3, but the Muslim rate had fallen to 2.3—leaving a difference of just one child per woman between Muslims and non-Muslims.

The gap narrowed even further in the former West Germany, where the authors relied on data by mother’s nationality rather than religion. West Germany recruited a large number of workers from Turkey beginning in the 1960s, giving Germany one of Western Europe’s largest Muslim populations. In 1970, Turkish women living in West Germany had more than two more children than German women. By 1996, the difference between these two groups had fallen to one child.

Recent trends in the Netherlands tell a similar story (see figure). The fertility gap between native-born women and women born in predominantly Muslim Morocco and Turkey narrowed considerably between 1990 and 2005.

Re: British culture

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36077786)

I'm not basing my postulation on immigration. I start with those that are here and their birth rate.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/dat...e-times-census

Selective quote:

Quote:

Almost a tenth of babies and toddlers in England and Wales are Muslim, declared the Times on its front page on Friday, indicating what it describes as a "startling shift" in the demographic trend in England and Wales. So where did the figures come from and are they as revealing as claimed?

The numbers originate from a 2011 census release first published by the Office for National Statistics in May 2013 and in more detail in November as a specially commissioned ad hoc table.

The figures do not calculate birthrate as such, but show that almost a tenth of babies and toddlers (under-fives) in England and Wales are Muslim. Of 3.5 million children up to the age of four in England and Wales recorded in the 2011 census, 317,952 (or 9.1%) were Muslim.

The Times report also states "the percentage of Muslims among the under-fives is almost twice as high as in the general population". That is correct. According to the census figures, 4.8% of the 56.1 million resident population of England and Wales in 2011 were Muslim, and as stated above 9.1% of all under-fives in the population were Muslim.

Re: British culture

Hmm!I was under the assumption this was about British culture not birth rates.

Re: British culture

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36077823)

Hmm!I was under the assumption this was about British culture not birth rates.

If you have been following the thread, you should be able to see that the discussion is now addressing whether or not British culture could be submerged and how this might occur.

Re: British culture

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077826)

If you have been following the thread, you should be able to see that the discussion is now addressing whether or not British culture could be submerged and how this might occur.

I think it's a diversion that could be addressed in another thread.

Re: British culture

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36077823)

Hmm!I was under the assumption this was about British culture not birth rates.

No, it’s not really about British culture, as the obsession with Muslim birth rates demonstrates.

Where we are today *is* British culture. Our culture is generated by, and expressed in, the sum total of everything we all believe and value and how we act on that belief. Likewise, where they were in 1945 *was* British culture. That was different, because societal attitudes were different, for a whole host of reasons including the recent war but also the country’s demographics. Where we are in 2100 *will be* British culture, because the sum total of beliefs and values of all British people at that time, and all the actions actions based on them, is what will generate and express that culture.

Culture is never static, and can never be so. It is always changing, as its component influences are always changing. That is why attempting to talk of a culture being “submerged” by the birth rate of one particular ethnic or religious group, both entirely misunderstands what culture is and how it is generated, and is also just a teeny bit racist.