Re: New upskirting law blocked by Tory MP
 

Okay, that is great and all but what practical purpose would that serve to have more debate if this is a way that things carry on? I have asked a bunch of questions in this thread about potential scenarios and even though it is difficult to answer hypothetical situations in absolute answers, what is the point if a load of the questions lead to no response? All a shrug of the shoulders does is to waste more time, money and parliamentary privilege along with confusion among officers and judges and will clog up the court system more, lead to more frivolous apprehensions, more appeals and eventually a load of settlements from police. Being accused of a crime like this will lead to someone fighting back - you can't just wrongly accuse someone of being a voyeur like the numerous cases that you have cited (like Gina) that turn out not to be covered by this proposed law, in the slightest.

I give you credit though, at least you have tried your best to answer these questions, and you are not a parliamentarian so you can't even base answers on any proposed legislation yet to be forward and are not privy to it but in a broad sense, the notion of this proposal just doesn't work. It will likely pass, and never do anything other than waste time.

Re: New upskirting law blocked by Tory MP
 

I answered some but then you come back with even more hypothetical questions. You also ask these in amongst a load of other questions which would take considerable time to continue with.

To most of the examples I have answered that I do not think they would fall in within the law since you could not be physically putting the phone under someones clothing and to be sure the amendment specifies that shots that can be obtained without doing so are not within the law. So people walking on glass panels or going down escalators would unlikely count.

What? She would be covered: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-40861875

He put his phone under her skirt and took a picture.

The legislation is published and I have linked to multiple times.

Also it's already been a law in Scotland and doesn't seem to cause issues.

Re: New upskirting law blocked by Tory MP
 

This is why in my first reply, when I said :

(Actually it may have been my second reply but all the posts were merged into one).

That was something I meant - it gets kind of preposterous / to go through a million different scenarios without knowing the scope / parameter of the law being proposed.

That is a good start - along with the fact that you have to dispute this in real time. Retrospectively coming back months down the line and saying "cop, help - he upskirted me but I just didn't know it at the time" is a willful disbelief of reality, as Hillary would say. (Only in this instance, it really is).

Secondly if it is clear that the perpetrator took the picture between the clothing and the object he was taking a shot of (be it her crotch or whatever) and he was physically using the camera and not using it remotely then it would be a clear crime.

As it currently is already.

Which brings me to my current point why on earth do we then need a new law and offense to cover this? It is already covered by existing law. The cops are struggling to enforce this? Then to put it simply, they need to do a better job.

I didn't even want to focus on the Gina issue...only from your link, it says the two following things:

So which is it - did they make him delete it, or did they delete it?

1. That is sloppy journalism or horrendous policing / response to public

2. Stories changing like that will leave gaping holes for defense to exploit on cross

3. It would hardly be a good idea to do either (delete or force him to delete) what the evidence to make the case is...no? (If they deleted it, then it would likely be a criminal violation of destroying evidence, IMO).

I could go on but that escapade is exactly the wrong way to handle the entire situation. (It became inadmissible for example).

Out of interest (genuinely curious) has this led to even a single prosecution? If so, could any of that been prosecuted under existing law already?

Seriously, I don't think that it is a good idea that I even ask the hypothetical scenarios until we know what specifically is being proposed here and then I think that we can re-visit this, if it helps any? :)

Re: New upskirting law blocked by Tory MP
 

Sill stuck in the stone age it seems our Mr Chope..

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ens-conference

Re: New upskirting law blocked by Tory MP
 

Hmmm, so is that before or after global men’s conference ?

Re: New upskirting law blocked by Tory MP
 

I am sure a men's conference exists somewhere.

I don't really see the problem with this women's conference though. It's that kind of organisation that allowed them to combat discrimination and inequality.

Re: New upskirting law blocked by Tory MP
 

Siting in the commons is a privilege afforded to those who have been democratically elected by the people not any tom dick or Harriet who fancies a seat .

Re: New upskirting law blocked by Tory MP
 

It's not as if it'll be in session and besides you can do tours of it. I think there a probably better locations for such I thing but I don't see the harm so long as they don't damage anything.

Chope seems to be bothered by the smallest things.

Re: New upskirting law blocked by Tory MP
 

Indeed I was in the House of Commons in December 2016 on a tour of the Houses of Parliament when the houses were not in session...I stood in the hallowed chamber.

I thoroughly recommend it as it's very informative and interesting.

I would have thought one of the restaurants in Westminster might be a bit more convivial myself though.

However I think Chope was merely backtracking myself to avoid being labelled as sexist.

Re: New upskirting law blocked by Tory MP
 

So if there was a men's conference, can women who object be determined to be "picking nits at the smallest of things" , too?

(Sorry for the late reply, I thought this thread had died some).

Re: New upskirting law blocked by Tory MP
 

In the dark, away from all the looks and jeers? They have been shamed into secrecy, huh? No such thing exists in parliament. Those who do not feel like permanent victims see no need to clamor for some perceived status of equality (that they already have), like certain inferior women, do - all for the sake of seeking attention.

Of course you don't. Because in that sense, your condescension is no less patronizing then any other do gooding male who has lost sense of his gender's ability to see it's own value, without the need for an apologist agenda for the pathetically inferior. You are a perfectly decent, nice young person who I think is about one of the most polite people that I have ever come across when discussing politics so of course you would have a "go along to get along" mentality when it comes to gender perceptions. In that way you are the perfect kind of gentleman to fall victim to the kind of garbage hoisted on the world by the modern feminist movement which insists on total obedience when it comes to an acceptance of a perceived slight against my entire gender for being born inferior. I am sure that your blessing will mean everything to the groups who seek your approval in the first place ; had they not got it then it wouldn't have mattered anyway because dissent really is admonished.

Right, because nothing says a perennial sense of victim hood like constantly viewing yourself as a second class citizen due to some nefarious claptrap in the head of someone else. I guess some of us in life were already born equal ; as much as some organization may tell me otherwise, I am not a second class citizen. Some among my gender are born victims, but not because of it. Or to put it another way: I am equal. To you, and to any other man or woman. God created me as equal as any other human being. I don't need the validation or vindication of some arbitrary group of women, especially if they claim to have won it for me, in their fight.

At some point in life, it might be interesting to see if there is some element / basis of reality in that whole organization / conference. Or maybe we should all go full Hillary and just assume that we need a wilful suspension in...well you get the idea. :)

Re: New upskirting law blocked by Tory MP
 

Women want to organise a women's conference and I don't care. That isn't being condescending or patronising. I also don't see it as a threat to me.

Re: New upskirting law blocked by Tory MP
 

:clap:

Exactly!
Personally I'm getting a tad fed up with the divisions being forced upon us by some people of all sexes and genders and inclinations when we should be pulling together as a society to protect all members of that society whatever their sexual preferences and inclinations..and it's not always men who are being condescending and patronising.