Re: ID Cards
 

How does that work Norm?
How is having a driving license an invasion of privacy?

Re: ID Cards
 

I don't buy that at all. A driving license serves a specific purpose, and happens to come with the benefit of being a handy form of identification should you chose to use it that way.

Re: ID Cards
 

A driving licence is optional. I weigh up the amount of personal data it requires, decide whether the benefits of having one outweigh the imposition on my privacy, and make a decision whether or not to have one. If I don't want it, then I take public transport instead.

An ID card is not optional. It is not provided in order to allow me to access a service. It exists purely to allow the State to posess as much of my personal information as it can gather, *just in case* I ever do something wrong.

That impinges on a whole raft of the freedoms and rights we enjoy in this country (and which, in the past, a great many people have fought and died to secure and protect).

Re: ID Cards
 

I can't drive, so don't carry a licence, but if I could, right now, I would have the choice of going out without my driving licence.

I do carry a couple of credit cards, a debit card, various store loyalty cards and an Oyster card that *is* registered to me (registration on Oysters is optional). All of which could be considered ID. However, as with the driving licence, I have the option of not carrying them.

For the ID card scheme to work as the government say it will, they are going to need to require that we carry the ID card at all times, and the police are going to need the option to check we are. Thus, we lose the choice of being unidentifiable..

Re: ID Cards
 

I was responding to this post:

The driver's license contain private/personal information, held by the governement (an agency thereof) on a central database. How is this different from an ID card?

The ID card will serve a specific purpose, and will be used as a form of identification.

Not if you want to drive legally!

The difference between a driver's license and the proposed ID card seems to me to be quite small.

---------- Post added at 11:26 ---------- Previous post was at 11:22 ----------

In practice I expect it will be like the driver's license - if you are asked to show it and have it on you, it will save some time.

Re: ID Cards
 

I believe I answered that adequately in my previous reply. How about addressing my post in its entirety, otherwise we're going to end up going round in circles.

Re: ID Cards
 

Don't be daft! The ID card's sole purpose will be, funnily enough, identification! What do you think ID stands for?

A driving licence has a specific purpose AND can be used for ID.

Therefore the difference between the two is substancial.

Re: ID Cards
 

Well the damn good reason, is that he wants drive.

But staying on that point, the government already "sell" data held on their driving licence computer database. Whats to stop them selling data held on ID cards?

---------- Post added at 12:26 ---------- Previous post was at 12:22 ----------

What specific purpose, other than ID, will the ID card serve?

Re: ID Cards
 

Then, at best, it is a pointless waste of billions of pounds. It won't save time because most people will just bung it in their wallet, along with all the other forms of ID they may carry.

At worst, the database created will be a honeypot attracted the attention of a lot of hackers who are attracted by the thought of free access to all the details of the entire population.

Re: ID Cards
 

You're right, it is a damn good reason. But, unlike the ID card, it is an avoidable reason.

Staying with the driving licence example, while it's an imposition on the driver's privacy, it is limited in scope: name, age, address, date and place of birth, photo, and relevant information about fitness to drive and convictions. All the information needed to establish entitlement and restrictions, and very little else except the minimum information required to prevent the licence being used fraudulently. In short, it is a proportionate response to the need to regulate an expensive and dangerous activity.

The ID card, on the other hand, would contain all the information I've already mentioned, plus a whole lot more. And exactly what expensive and dangerous activity is it regulating? The Government says it will help combat terrorism and illegal immigration. That's debatable, but even if it did, is it proportionate, and is the intrusion on the privacy of the entire population justified? I say not.

Re: ID Cards
 

And it's a fair bet that someone will work out a way to forge them, as they have done with passports. It's also worth noting that any changes to the system will be both expensive and ultimately pointless as any changes in security on the card will also be eventually defeated? Don't believe me? My sister knew a DSS Security advisor. Do you know why they changed the design of the Giro about once every six months? That's how long each new anti copy/anti tamper measure introduced lasted before it was defeated. The ID card will be no different.

Re: ID Cards
 

You mentioned freedoms and rights won by those who fought for this country. Do you think they'd be happy to know that there is an unknown number of people living in Britain who have no right to be here?

So if the ID card could be used as a substitute for a driver's license, you'd be happy?

Why not replace several single-purpose documents with one multi-purpose document?

There are plenty of databases containing your information, all have to be safeguarded against unauthorised use.

As for the argument regarding forgery - passports can be forged, but they are still very useful documents.

Re: ID Cards
 

The ID card will not stop people living here illegally (unless you are advocating such dracionian measures as house to house searches). They'll just live here without ID..

How about using the Driver's licence as a substitute for an ID card? Oh, that's what we already do..

I'll handle these two together. With the current system, if a thief steals one of my cards, or a hacker hacks into one of the databases containing info on me, they will get some info on me. This is bad enough. By moving all the data to one central database (and storing a lot of it on the card), they are increasing the chances that someone will be able to get *all* the data stored about me. This could be a lot worse.

I never said they couldn't be useful, but my point in that post wasn't how usful the ID card is to the consumer. I was making the point that the system will be massively insecure and what little security there is will be broken regularly. This means that the government is spending billions of pounds, and talking about massive infringements on our privacy for a system that *may* be more secure than the current one for a few months. And that's assuming that the security isn't hacked before the system is introduced.

Also, TBH, I don't really see how it will be more conveniant for the consumer either. OK, so you don't carry your passport round (actually, the government advise this to prevent possible theft, but seem to assume that carrying an ID card around will actually be safer). But most people will put the ID card in a wallet or purse with other cards, so it will not save time or be more conveniant for them.

Re: ID Cards
 

Not by itself, and not entirely. But it would help.

Well, that's the point I was trying to make. We already use ID cards, but give them different names (driver's license, Tesco clubcard, etc.)

The question of security is very important, but I don't think it should be used to stop progress.

It needn't be like that!

I find the argument for a single identification document compelling. Rather than having a dozen or so single use, not too secure documents, I'd rather have one all-encompassing very secure card. And before someone says "but what if it gets into the wrong hands", use of the card would need to be verified by biometric data such as fingerprint or iris scan; you could even include a PIN for good measure!

Re: ID Cards
 

Perhaps you can point out where I said that?

If the card could be such a substitute then we'd need different types of ID card for people who don't drive, lorry drivers, etc - all adding to the expense of the card.

I'm afraid you're not doing a very good job of selling this idea, it's falling at each hurdle.