Cable Forum - Madeleine McCann

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Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday

OK. My thoughts.

Yes, I believe that the parents were wrong to leave the children on their own. Whether they were 40 yards away or 400, it makes no difference. My parents wouldn't have left me in a strange hotel on my own in the room. Yes, they would have done it at home, but at home, you have access, and maybe give keys to friends or family, but that's it. In a hotel, anyone of a number of people have access to your room, and you don't know them.

However, as Mick said, saying that, and criticising the parents does not actually help to bring the child back.

They may have made a mistake, but they are suffering for it now. I, for one, feel sorry for them, and don't think that anyone (least of all them) deserves to go through what they are going through.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday

I agree but what someone says on this forum isnt gonna make a difference to them However being allowed to freely voice the opinions might get it through to someone who may well consider it ok to leave their kids and may well change there attitude that then would surely be a positive

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday

Now if they had actually left the children and disappeared to a nightclub and rolled in at 5 in the morning I would be as judgemental..however in the circumstances of this case I think they were far more responsible than they are being given credit for.

The facts are the apartment was locked,the windows were shut and the flat was in sight of the parents at all times.Someone jimmied the window open and then left the door wide open.Someone went to a deal of trouble just to get that one particular child.That's the real sh*t in this case not the parents.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday

Quote:

Originally Posted by Incognitas (Post 34295347)

I'm sorry? far more responsible than they are being given credit for? - There are a lot of threads on here, that I will not come into and make a statement along the lines of 'I will never.....' - but this is one I can most definetly make - I will never, ever, leave my son of under 3, in a locked room, on his own - whilst I pop out for a spot of dinner - I don't want to be rude, but how can you type that with a straight face? - far more responsible? - it's like saying someone who only nails one of their testicles to a plank of wood, is far more responsible than someone who nails both of them to a plank of wood - technically speaking they are, but....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Incognitas (Post 34295347)

The facts are the apartment was locked,the windows were shut and the flat was in sight of the parents at all times.Someone jimmied the window open and then left the door wide open.Someone went to a deal of trouble just to get that one particular child.That's the real sh*t in this case not the parents.

Which part of the apartment was in view the whole time? - obviously not the window or the front door

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_love_monkey (Post 34295355)

I'm quoting from the reporter on the BBC 24/7 news report who was stood at the scene.I can only rely on her testimony which I have to assume is the truth...:shrug:

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday

Quote:

Originally Posted by Incognitas (Post 34295347)

The facts are the apartment was locked,the windows were shut and the flat was in sight of the parents at all times.

Appreciate that's not your quote - bound to be conflicting reports at this stage, but now this has come to light:

Quote:

She said: "They had put the kids to bed at 7pm and checked on them every half-hour as they had dinner nearby with the rest of the party. Gerry said the window was open, the shutters broken and the door, which had been locked, was hanging open."

But Robin Crossland, the administrator of the resort said he had been present when the McCanns were first interviewed by police soon after Maddy vanished. "They clearly said that they had left the French windows unlocked as they were using them to access the apartment to check on the children throughout their meal," he said

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...6/nmaddy06.xml

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday

Quote:

Originally Posted by kryogenik (Post 34295394)

Appreciate that's not your quote - bound to be conflicting reports at this stage, but now this has come to light:

"They clearly said that they had left the French windows unlocked as they were using them to access the apartment to check on the children throughout their meal," he said

Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...6/nmaddy06.xml

I take it you are foaming at the mouth and loving every moment posting that :rolleyes:
I'm off to bed, my kids are up there somewere i think

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday

Quote:

Originally Posted by marky (Post 34295397)

I take it you are foaming at the mouth and loving every moment posting that :rolleyes:
I'm off to bed, my kids are up there somewere i think

I take no joy from the fact that their child was taken.
What they did was foolish to say the least.
I ask once again would any parent here do the same in the same circumstances.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 34295112)

Well I'm so glad you are not in control of the justice system with coming out with such a ridiculous and moronic suggestion.

http://mlis.state.md.us/cgi-win/web_....exe?gfl&5-801

Every civilized country has such law, the fact that you are ignoramus does not change the reality. Above an example!

---------- Post added at 07:25 ---------- Previous post was at 07:23 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul M (Post 34295115)

What utter tripe you spout. I pity your poor kids, how on earth they ever learned any independance with you watching them until they were teenages is a mystery to me.

It's amazing how many 'perfect' parents suddenly emerge from the woodwork in threads like this, I'm sure you have all never put a foot wrong. :dozey:

What a lot of rubbish! Did I say watcH?

Have you seen lots of independent 3 year olds?

See what I said to Mick.

---------- Post added at 07:31 ---------- Previous post was at 07:25 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by zinglebarb (Post 34295117)

he ruined a good arguement with his extreme view.

Apologies, Zingle, but it is the Law in many, many Western countries.

and in the Sunday Times somebody says:

"I don't know about the law in Portugal but in the UK I believe parents would be liable to criminal prosecution for leaving children alone in this way."

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday

Quote:

Q: At what age can a child be left home alone?
(Response from the NSPCC, www.nspcc.org.uk)
[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]Most parents and carers find that they occasionally have to spend time away from their children. Often these times can be planned well in advance and suitable arrangements made to ensure that a child is well cared for. However, sometimes parents and carers may find that they are asked to do something which takes them away from their children at short notice. This can make preparation for care of their children in their absence difficult.
Children rely on adults to protect them. They rightly expect that protection from the adults responsible for their care is available at all times. Parents and carers have a responsibility to make sure that children are safe and content in their absence.
http://www.rospa.com/safetyeducation...s/babysit3.gifAt some point in a child's life their parent or carer will decide that he or she can safely be left alone for a certain period of time. Most children are safely left alone by their parents or carers, because the adult responsible for their welfare has thought carefully about this decision and is well aware of the strengths and limitations of the child concerned.
However there are times when all parents considering leaving their children for a period of time are uncertain about their safety.
What the law says
There is no law that determines the minimum age that a child can be left alone. However it is an offence to leave a child alone when doing so places them at risk.
How do you decide if you can safely leave a child alone?
There are many factors that can influence the decision of a parent or carer to leave the children in their care at home alone. These include:

the age of the child
the child's level of maturity and understanding
the location where the child will be left
the time and frequency the child will be left alone
whether or not there are any other children in the household.

For example, most parents would think it is OK to leave a sixteen year old alone for the evening but to leave them to their own devices for a week would be unacceptable. Many young children play out in the community with other children without a parental presence; as they are unsupervised, they are 'alone' but this is an important part of growing up.
You are the best judge of your child and the level of maturity and responsibility they have.
A few other points to guide you

Never leave a baby or very young child alone at home, whether asleep or awake, even for a few minutes. It does not take long for unsupervised young children or babies to injure themselves.
Most children under thirteen should not be left for more than a short period.
No child under sixteen should be left overnight.

If you do leave a child alone, remember:

If possible leave a telephone number where you can be contacted, and be available to answer it immediately.
Talk to your child about keeping safe at home, not answering the door to strangers and highlighting the potential dangers in the home.
Give clear instructions about what to do in case of an emergency. All children left alone should be able to summon the emergency services by telephone.
Leave a list of trusted people they can contact.
Put obvious dangers out of reach of children, e.g. medicines, chemicals, matches etc.
Make sure that the child is happy about the arrangements and confident about being left.
Inform the child when you are expected back, and arrive back on time.

Choosing a babysitter
[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]You can always consider using a babysitter as an alternative to leaving a child alone. However, remember to:

Follow your instincts - if in doubt don't use them.
Ask for at least two references and contact the referees yourself.
Choose a babysitter over sixteen years old.
Listen to your child. Talk to your child about any issue of baby-sitting that they are unhappy about. If they remain unhappy about your use of a particular baby-sitter, find someone else.
Only use registered childminders. A list of your local registered childminders can be found from your local authority social services department.

If you need any further advice or information about leaving children alone, then please do not hesitate to contact the NSPCC Child Protection Helpline on 0800 800 500 at anytime.
For further information on babysitting, go to RoSPA's babysitting guidance.

this information is available at the nspcc bupa and rospa. Please digest the highlighted guidelines then tell me if these simple common sense instructions were followed and answer this.
Q.Would a 3 year now be missing if they had.
A. No
Q Did the parents act responsably
A No

Any dispute in these answers please give proper reasons and not emotional ones

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday

Quote:

Originally Posted by zinglebarb (Post 34295438)

The reporter I seen said they could se eth e corner of the block. How woudl the kids have got out of a locked apartment if there was a fire Incog? so on the other hand and im afraid yes I am being judgemental 3 defenseles children were left alone locked in an apartment. Sounds bad that way to me???

Did no one actually bother to read the link I posted?

this information is available at the nspcc bupa and rospa. Please digest the highlighted guidelines then tell me if these simple common sense instructions were followed and answer this.
Q.Would a 3 year now be missing if they had.
A. No
Q Did the parents act responsably
A No

Any dispute in these answers please give proper reasons and not emotional ones

:tu: I was just about to post the same link. (Sorry, I missed it)

Furthermore, according to my neighbour (he is a judge) the Children And Young Persons Act 1933, parents can be prosecuted for neglect if they leave a child alone "in a manner likely to cause unnecessary suffering or injury to health", but there's nothing in the legislation more specific than that. No minimum age to leave a child unattended, and no minimum age at which older kids can look after younger ones either. His wife (a lawyer) said because the hotel was an unknown territory for the kids, then at least the 3 year old was very likely to "unnecessary suffer". Both agree that the parents are guilty under the UK Law.

We are up early to organize out joint BBQ party, so I better get on with it...

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday

Whoever took this child planned it carefully and must surely have been watching how the parents were minding their children as they only took the 3yo which worries me most of all as I would imagine babies are more in demand for childless couples. :disturbd: The nightmare this family is now going through is unimaginable and all many people want to do is deny the babies their natural parents too by packing them off to jail! :mis:

I am hoping the family are reunited soon and nothing abhorrent has happened to the poor child in the meantime (this has surely been a lesson these parents will never ever forget and will change their whole attitude towards their children and probably not in the long term necessarily a healthy way). :sorry:

As for 3yo never sleeping through the night both mine did (one I would have trouble waking in the late evening let alone the wee small hours) :erm:

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday

I see some people are still coming out and pointing the finger at the parents - some of you really are totally pathetic. There is too many people here with a 'Serves them right' attitude and its completely inappropriate given the fact that the girl is still missing.

But there are some here who appear more bothered about whose to blame than the girl being found. :rolleyes:

They don't need ignorant and obnoxious people like some of you saying they was in the wrong and they need to go to jail, they don't need people coming out with extracts from law books or guidelines from the NSPCC - they need their little girl back and I am sure they know what they did at the time, was wrong and I am sure they would take any punishment coming to them, just to get their girl back, but as each day passes, they are going through hell, noones deserves to be put through that no matter what the circumstances are or whose to blame.

I'll say it again - pointing the blame will not get this girl back.

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday

Its obvious to me that a lot of posts here are coming from people who dont want to be seen to be judgemental they want to be seen as compassionate. When I first saw the video of the little girl playing and heard what had happened I cried I felt and still do feel compassion for the child but what went through my head in them first few instants were WTF were they doing leaving the children alone. Feeling thinking or voicing that opinion does not make me a bad person it does not make me dis compassionate. I cant believe the impressions ive got from some of the posts on this forum in reply to what ive said and at one point I thought I was gonna get gagged by those in power here for my view. I do not blame the parents for the abduction there is only the guilty to blame for that but I do blame these educated people for the lack of thought and imo irresponsable behaviour that gave the opportunity . Is anyone seriously here prepared to debate that leaving 3 young children with no way of looking after themselves alone is there?????

---------- Post added at 09:15 ---------- Previous post was at 09:14 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 34295454)

So your now judging me??? nice to know what you think of me mate(btw isnt calling someone ignorant and obnoxious against the sites T&C)
How can anyone on this forum help bring the child back?

Re: Toddler 'abducted' during holiday

I just hope the local police are out looking for someone who has lost a 3yo child due to illness recently, kidnappers or known paedophiles.