Re: Price hike on 1mbit service
 

I've always said this should happen. I don't see the point in monopolising customers to only have one supplier of content or telephone.

There is no reason why ntl could not rent out their connections to people's houses to offer, say, a phone line through BT or Talk Talk or a TV package via Sky.

Maybe this is the solution that ntl need - someone comes in, buys all the wires, gets ntl out of debt - then makes their money back from the various package providers.

Re: Price hike on 1mbit service
 

What you fail to realise is NTL own the network thats why! How would you feel if you bought a piece of land, built a house on that piece of land and then the local council said "Youve got to share this house with 4 other people because they are homeless but dont worry they will pay you £1 a week rent.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

It shouldn't have been sold as an unlimited service then.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Nothing can be unlimited and I guess if you left your Pipex connection maxed out 24/7 they would be in contact.

There is always terms with ISPs that can allow them to cut people off who take the ****. Anyone remember the days of 24-7 Freecall?

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Don't sell it as unlimited then-simple.

Because now whatever way you look at it there are people who signed up for an umlimited service that now have a limited service.

But that would not be based on how much I downloaded-Pipex openly state there is no download limit on my service, it may be because I am having a detrimental affect on the network-but not due to how much I download, don't confuse those 2 issues.

Yes, but you have missed the point (again) ntl offered an umlimited service, now those people who signed up for it have a limited service (not really that difficult to comprehend I don't think)

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Quote:

Don't sell it as unlimited then-simple. Because now whatever way you look at it there are people who signed up for an umlimited service that now have a limited service.

I don't see anywhere on NTL's site it is selling broadband as an unlimited product.


Yes but it all relative the more you download the more stress you put on the network.

The way you are going on about this limit its as if they have put it at like 10mb a day. 1gb a day is a reasonable suggestive limit to impose.

Not one person has been disconnected by NTL for exceeding this limit and there is no plans to disconnect anyone! So therefore I do not see how it will affect the average user.

Most people want extra speed because they like to wait less time, I download no more now than when I first got broadband (512kbps) compared with when I had the 2mbit ADSL line. If people are so bothered about this limit then why are people still getting their broadband from NTL?

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Are you listening? :erm:

The product was sold as unlimited, & continued to be for some time after the cap/"guideline" was introduced.

So all the people who signed up for an unlimnited service as per the adverts have been given a limited service due to a download cap/"guideline" being introduced.


But they still could not do anything based on data download totals.

Not when you move the goalposts & change what people signed up for it isn't. :nono:

Not the point-the point is that it is still in place & they are not going to increase it even with the new speed tiers coming.

Because they are not like you & don't care about download caps/"guidelines", or they simply don't know better-those are the only 2 options.

Re: Price hike on 1mbit service
 

I don't fail to realise this, but it is only the same as BT owning its network - rather than your analogy of someone owning a house - which doesn't really make much sense in this context.

I'm not saying that ntl should have their lines taken away from them, what I have said for a long time is that for true competition and customer choice it would be the best solution if one company owned the lines and you could then chose who you got your content from.

This would open up the market to some interesting competition, and it would be the customer who benefitted long-term - which I'm all for.

Re: Price hike on 1mbit service
 

Wasn't there talk of AOL using NTLs cables for their own broadband offering...

Did that ever happen - or was it just another idea that NTL decided wasn't profitable enough for them ?

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Yes you can get AOL Broadband through NTL.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

From AOL's site

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

And neither service from AOL (over BT phone line via DSL, or using cable modem over ntl's cable network) have a downoad cap/"guideline".

How mad is that-I could get AOL BB (over ntl) with no cap, yet in the same house I could subscribe direct to ntl BB & have a nice download cap/"guideline"...?? :erm:

I'm sure ntl must have reasons for this dual offering......:rolleyes:

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

but AOL's offering is more expensive isnt it?

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Yes-£27/£28 per month I believe as they offer all their own interactive 'content' from their main portal, along with 0800 Freephone Support. :erm:

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

and their 1mb price is £34.99 according to the web site - so should people unhappy with NTL's 1mb price increase or CAP should migrate to AOL?

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

AFAIAA AOL only supply the 600k service via NTL broadband.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

according to thier website, they do offer 1M at 34.99 : http://www.aol.co.uk/products/broadb...num/index.html

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

So AOL might offer 1meg speeds over NTl at £34.99, i.e. cheaper now than ntl will be, but at a slower speed than ntl. Meanwhile AOL 600 k service over ntl gets even less competetive given ntls proposed speed increases.

Or are the AOL cable speeds going to get faster too? But that wouldn't suit their dial up offerrings.
An interesting conundrum me thinks.

*edit AOL may not be subject to a specific cap clause, but they do have the standard overuse / abuse type clauses which would enable them to do an ntl if needed to impose more robust use limits. However AOL did say sometime ago to anticap, when they first launched their services over ntl that they would avoid capping. However I suspect that AOL users arent really "heavy users", as most heavy users wouldn't want to be tied into AOLs proprietary browser and email stuff.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

The Platinum 1Mb service is only available via ADSL http://www.aol.co.uk/products/broadb...l?promo=228937

The Gold service is 512k via ADSL or 600k via NTL BB.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

As I understand it NTL have written recently to a select few customers, those who are the extreme abusers of the cap, and basically told them to stop. If they continue and ignore them you can be very sure NTL have every intention to disconnect them.


NTL should stop worrying about the download speeds though and think more about the connection overload from P2Pers which is what really kills things far more than download saturation I should think.

A case of which is the better of two evils? :D

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Cap issues do drift away from the original concept of is the price increase, especially broadband, justified. Simply put no.

Caps, even if some consider them to be idle threats, perhaps make the waters more muddy and make the "capped" offerring less attractive than the uncapped. I suspect however the real issue of caps, which was not the point of this thread, was upload not download capacity, whcih ntl's capping policy failed to address.

The point is to look at the base line cost of the service. If you can get cheaper elsewhere, that's where customers will go. On that basis ntl shot themsleves in the foot.

However the subsequent announcement, nodoubt to keep pace with Telewest, of speed increases in BB speeds makes confuses issues. It will be interesting whether punters (excepting the aggravation of chaning from cable to ADSL), want extra speed but pay more, or slightly lesser speed and pay a little less.

We may need to start calculating on the basis of £ per mbps, with a separate table of £ per MB download and work out from that what we, the punter are prepared to pay.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Lets break this down - we have on offer a server of 3 speeds, for thos who can Get ADSL (and im guessing this is growing all the time i imagine) have a choice. Now the Average Person who is not well into computers does not know about P2P, News Servers and the like and they probably download or watch some Streaming Video - so im guessing they will be happy to go with either NTL 600 or even ADSL 512 sort of thing.


Now there is another bacth of users who know about such things as NewsServer, P2P and the like - or even getting Linux Distros - thats like 3-5 CD's per One. These Same people i am guessing have the 1mbit service or even the 2mbit ADSL sort of thing.

At the end of the Day though there is no enough choice on NTL as it goes to meet all the types of people out there - all three tiers all have a CAP for example - so in effect there is no POWER USER Service really. I agree that not everybody who has 1mbit service is like downloading 24/7.

Now here is my story - it wont shock you as its about right for NTL.
When the price increase came about - i was on that phone trying to cancel - the man on the other end said well - tell you what - Ill give you 1mbit for half price for 3 months. Sounded a good offer - so i stayed - i even wrote his name down somewhere. Now sure enough my Bill Came in - bugger me daft - full price - now there is a shock. I ring up NTL - who of course have no record of this but they 'claim' they will sort it. I still have the Bill and will ring up again to confirm - they say its half price for 3 months - then great, if not - they not getting the dosh - simple as that :)

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Hallelulah!!

At last someone else who sees the point I have been trying to make-ntl=no choice.

Been there, had that experience many times. :rolleyes: The problem is there is no accountability within ntl-people seem to be able to say/do anything on the phone to a customer & leave no trace, & that's why the situation that you have just encountered is allowed to happen at ntl. :td:

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

if you work out £per mbit then the top tier is poor value for money

ntl=30 gig per month
30 gig perm month=average rate of 102kbit
so on the top tier you pay 37.99 per 100kbit (£370.9 9 per mbit)

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

:confused:

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

also :confused:
30Gb/month = £37.99 for 30Gb (assuming 1Gb per day CAP, which is rarely enforced) = £1.27 per Gb = £0.01 per Mb (or there abouts).

does that make sense ? (been a long day already) :angel:

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

I worked it out based on price we pay and for traffic we get, the medium tier gets 30gig traffic for 24.99 and the top gets the same amount for 37.99. 30gig is 102kbit average out over a month.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Update to my last post - rang NTL this morning (answered in like one ring - WOW) and its set up but i dont get the reduced bill till next month (confusing this billing in advance thing). Now the question is this - will i get half price for the new prices or half price as in what im paying now? I wish i had thought of that before jumping at the offer to be honest. Though £19 a month is not bad i suppose for 3 months for 1mbit though even at this price i am thinking maybe i should have jumped ship anyhow.

Ok so the speeds are going up - but by time the speeds have gone up - my 3 months at this magic half price will be probably up. Will I stay - the short answer is no because you have to weigh up all the pro's and cons and what its costing you really.

Lets See, NTL 1.5Mbit/256 for £37.99, email dont work, news - joking right and webspace thats usefull for storing 55mb files (thats if you can delete the files on there).
Now lets addd to that cost shall we - Proper Web Space (500MB, ASP), proper email system so when i press send - hey guess what, it actually gets there. Then there is news Servers - another £10 a month.

Compare that with a ADSL providor out there - £32.99 a month for 1mbit/256 - reports sounded good. You get enough web space for a forum plus PHP, MYSQL sort of thing - so you can actually do something with it. No Restrictions as its a POWER USER Package, fixed IP and a news server that works.

So to me - the latter seems better value - no 12 months contract either, 1 month and if you leave before 12 months then you pay the connection charge - which sounds fair enough to me.

Out of intertest (soory slightly off topic), there was a Power User Survey thing way back - what ever happend with that - did we all waste our time filling that in?

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

mauldor I dont disagree with you, I am staying with ntl tho but just downgrading my package, I got the sneaky feeling people are going to be moving of the top tier following recent events, NTL are gonna kick themselves when they realised they should have just raised each tier by £1.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Im happy to get 1.5mb and pay a few quid more. If I could anything else for similar value, I would. Since I dont have a BT Phone Line.

Personally, Ive not had any e-mail problems! and since using NTLs new news server, its quite fast! Just hoping they will follow Telewest and do 2 - 3mb! w00t

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

:welcome: to the site Mal. :)

I'm sure your knowledge will be invaluable here. :tu:

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Chrysalis, fully agree with you.
I too have downgraded from 1 mb, but also downgraded my tv service.
So as you say, NTL will be kicking themselves when they realise that they should have increased ALL speeds by £1 per month.
Why should people taking 1mb be the only ones to face an increase? can any NTL employees who visit the site explain?
It is a bit like walking into tesco,s and picking up a 750 gramme box of cornflakes, going to the checkout, and the woman says to you, " Because you have a bigger box, we are going to charge you a fiver more for the privilege ".
NTL have no one to blame but themselves, so for the sake of writing off the £3 month, or even fairer, charging every user an extra £1, they are losing from me a damn sight more, then multiply this figure by the people who have taken the same approach, and it doesnt seem good news for a company already in the doldrums.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Have NTL asked you if you want 1.5 mb? there again, they havent asked if you want to pay the increase in monthly premium.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

That's a good analagy, normally the bigger/larger package you buy, the proportionally cheaper it gets (not with ntl though)

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

The tone of this thread is really beginning to bug me. If we are looking for supermarket checkout analogies, then how about:

150K box = Buy one, get one free, 100% larger box for the old price.
600K box = 25% extra free for the old price.
1024K box = 50% extra free for an 8% price increase.

Someone else has already worked out the price per speed/Kb and it DOES still favour the bigger band consumer pro rata - thus the cost 'per cornflake' remains cheapest in the biggest box. So it IS the same with ntl in this comparison.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Nikko, cudnt agree more.

I havnt even bothered replying to the stupidy of these posts. If you wanna make stupid comments go right ahead!

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Sorry Nikko, but ntl are the ones who have, unfairly, in my opinion increased the price of one level of their broadband, but to try and pacify people, they say "We will increase the speed"
Instead, why didnt they, turn to the customers and give them the choice?
Or just levy a £1 increase across the board.
If I had been a customer not taking 1mb I don't think I would be too upset over the price increase on 1mb, especially as I'd be getting more speed for the same money.
I think the supermarket analogy is a good one.
NTL are not giving you what you want, they are enforcing it, then wondering why people are turning their backs on them in droves, or cutting back on the products.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Andrew, what is stupid about it?
It is a fair point.
Why should you taking 600k have an increase in speed at no extra cost? compared to someone taking 1mb, soon to be upgraded to 1.5 mb, by the way, I wasnt asked if I wanted this, but then being charged an extra £3 for the privilege?
And the sooner NTL get off their arses and make the deal more fairer the better.
Another analogy would be that you buy a new car, a 1.6 litre model, then the dealer tells you they have to put in a 2.0 litre engine at a cost of £1000 to yourself, but people who bought a 1.0 litre model can have the engine upgraded to a 1.6 free of charge.
Get my drift?

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Of course there is a choice - you have listed 2 options there! they can choose to pay a bit more and go a lot quicker - they could choose to pay a chunk less and go a bit slower, or indeed shop around.

Would an arbitary quid rise across all tiers have been a choice? Hardly.

Anyway I am not here to provoke an argument, we each have a viewpoint on it. The speeds & prices are there to be seen, and perceived values to the individual are there to be decided on.

I am content to pay less than a pound a week more to get a connection speed half as fast again, at a price/Kb that follows the more/cheaper model - each to their own!

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Just because some of you are NTL fan-boys or just on a lower tariff and pleased with your "free" upgrade, doesn't mean you can just dismiss our complaints about the price increase (on what is already a too expensive price) as "stupid" :mad:

I know people are saying "it's just £3 a month", but despite the fact we've been paying £35 a month so far, we're not made of money (and for many of us, £35 was the limit with hopes that it would drop over time!). We're well aware of what's good value for money, but just saying that by paying more we get better value is dumb when we can see that we can save a lot by paying less and getting a slightly lesser service (which in practice for many will probably not be much difference). It's like saying that buying a particular £50k car is good value for money... well that it might be, but it's far too much to pay for a car.

The reality though is the majority of the rest of the broadband world is not putting prices up but dropping prices, and the UK has some of the highest broadband prices and lowest speeds, particularly in Europe.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Nikko, explain to me why a quid arbitary rise would not have been a choice, yet a £3 one is seen as a choice?

I too don't intend getting into a slanging match, but it is unfair to charge one group of customers more.
There are a few on here who just won't climb down from the fence me thinks.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

My own feeling is that NTL have not increased the price of the lower two tiers in order to remain competitive. They have probably increased the higher tier because users on that are probably the ones that make more use of the upstream and it is the upstream that is in short supply and the cause of most congestion problems. NTL may actually want users to drop down to the middle tier from the higher one.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

I am not a heavy user, I go nowhere near the 1gb limit, because for one, music downloads do nothing for me, I have spent over £1k on my hifi set up, so I buy originals.
As has been stated before, sorry to drag over coals again, but, broadband was touted to me as unlimited.
If there are problems with the upstream, that is up to NTL to increase capacity.
That is why you pay your monthly subscriptions, not just to line the pockets of the board.
If the water board say to you that you have unlimited use of your taps, it doesnt mean they can then moan if you leave a sprinkler connected 24/7.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Intersting analagy, and thats all it is, but the water board, or Thames Water or whoever your suppler are, do charge a fee for a hosepipe and another greater fee for a swimming pool. In fact they probably require you to switch to meter if you have a pool. Both increase the fee paid from the standard.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

I think you missed the point my friend, note the phrase "unlimited use".
My take on the increase to the top tier, is that NTL know that they do not have a legal case to take someone to court for what they call " excessive use " of an unlimited product.
So it is a lot easier to penalise the customers using the fastest connection speed, under the misconception that these customers are the ones causing the main problems with upstreaming.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

nikko actually you are wrong

"150K box = Buy one, get one free, 100% larger box for the old price.
600K box = 25% extra free for the old price.
1024K box = 50% extra free for an 8% price increase"

all packages come with 30 gig traffic so it works like this

and what I work out will be after price changes, since you did the same.

300kbit users pay £170.99 per mbit traffic
750kbit users pay £249.99 per mbit traffic
1.5mbit users pay £379.99 per mbit traffic

the price rise and speed upgrades were NOT linked ntl original move was just to send a price rise to the top tieir only for their own reasons (I suspect they want people to downgrade), then the speed increases came after when blueyonder forced them into doing it. There is nothing stupid about expecting all customers to be treated the same, there is currently 2 major problems with the top tier package.

1 - users on the bottom tier can download the same amount
2 - the gap in price has increased by 30%

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Chrysalis, sadly, there are people on here who think that it is not a big issue that only one group of customers are being asked to plump up an increase in price.
And your calculation is spot on.
Ntl have been faced with a problem regarding upstreaming for some time now, but rather than increase capacity, instead of lining the troughs of the board with nice big bonuses, they decide to try and force people downwards.
And as you agreed, there is nothing stupid in expecting everyone to be treated the same.
Either an across the board increase of £1 per level, or no increase at all and leave the speeds as they are.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Um, what :confused:

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

One point that you have failed to take account of:

All packages do not come with a 30 Gb allowance. You are allowed to break the 1 Gb on several days per month (forgot how many and I am tired) and on those days that you do, the faster your connection the more you can download. So, the faster your connection, the more you can download per month without breaching the AUP. Probably works out at nearer 90 Gb per month rather than 30 Gb.

I would love to know how you work out the cost per mbit traffic which arcamalpha2004 says you have done accurately. Please enlighten us.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

1) Its Nikko

2) No, I am spot on and I take umbrage at those that make unqualified statements about correctness without the wherewithall to grasp the concept.

3) Others have requested that you clarify your seemingly wild calculations and figures into some semblance of comprehension. I would agree.

Edit: BTW It was not me that called anyone stupid, if you look back on the thread. However, I have to say it is becoming tempting.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Nikko apologies on the misnaming you. I worked it out on the basis of 30 gig traffic a month, as I am used to paying for traffic on various hosting platforms I have got used to how paying for traffic works, when people have traffic allocation its usually measure in mbit of usage, although ntl customers won't be told this way the comparison is still the same, ianathuth does have a point that user's can go over the allocation if they are clever and only go over on certian days but I based it on what ntl stated their guidelines as, which is 1 gig a day. The 1mbit is based on average usage over the month, and since 1mbit is 300gig traffic I simply divided it by 30(30 gig allocation) which = 10 so that makes 10 users to use the 1mbit, so I then multiplied the price that each users pays by 10. Now normally to counteract this isp's that have traffic limits will usually give out a larger allocation to those with higher burst speeds so when working out the cost per 1mbit its usually the same or at least less of a gap but as it stands per the guidelines ntl set the top tier user's are paying over the double amount of what the bottom tier users are paying, I expect this will be hard to grasp for those that are one the bottom package's.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

I thought 1mbit is 1 million bits?

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Sorry, but how does 1mbit = 300gig traffic :confused:

"Traffic" is measured in bytes transferred. Line speed is measured in [max] bits/second. Your statement above seems to confuse the two in some random way.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Whether I have agreed with a wrong calculation is besides the point here, will some bright spark tell me why NTL are justified in only increasing the top tier? instead of an across the board increase?
As far as I gather, everyone can download 1gb per day, the faster speed just means you get to that limit faster?
The whole thing is unjustified in my opinion, and maybe a matter the oft should be looking into.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Yes, your figures are spot on, but they do not tell the whole story, as not everyone is interested in how much data they can download, whilst still staying within the AUP, but rather how fast they can browse.

I think someone mentioned the cap does not actually limit you to 30gb per month, but rather asks you not to go above 1gb per day for something like 3 consecutive days in a 14 day period. I think we're all agreed this is rather wooly, and a 30gb per month allowance would be far more sensible, but that's not the issue.

To complete your story, customers also need to take into account the following, which is cost of bandwidth (based on new pricing and bandwidth):

300k = 5.9p per k
750k = 3.3p per k
1.5mb = 2.5p per k

This compares to currently:

150k = 11.9p per k
600k = 4.2p per k
1mb = 3.5p per k

This highlights how much the 150k users were being fleeced, but it also domstrates that the new pricing is better value for money.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Andy, have NTL asked if people want the increase in speed? no they have not.
Like with anything in life, you should be given a choice.
As I said earlier, either a £1 increase across all three speeds, or no increase and things left as they are.
And the bottom line is, 1mb users are still subsidising the lower speeds before the speed increases come in, and what is to say how long it will take NTL to increase the speeds? this week? next week? next month? next year? in the meantime we are frankly being fleeced, which is why I dropped down a tier.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

You do have a choice, there are lots of providers out there, another two on the ntl network in fact that offer different packages and speeds and caps.

Why should there be a £1 increase in all speeds, I don't understand why that is? The most common speeds for most people will be the lower two, and these are where ntl needs to be most competetive - increasing the costs will not help here.

Also, I canot see your logic in saying that the lower tiers are being subsidised by the top tier - the costs above show this is not the case, as they are lower on the 1.5mb tariff than the other two.

I'm guessing that you're a 1mb subscriber - so understand where you're coming from - and I agree that raising the cost just before the announcement about raising the speeds was stupid - they should have raised the speeds first, then the cost - but it's nothing new that ntl's marketeers are not exactly blessed with common sense on some occasions!

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

You are being given the opportunity of having a faster connection so what is the problem. You have no need to take advantage of the faster speeds if you don't want to.

This has to be looked at from a marketing viewpoint. If the lower tiers were increased in price it would probably lead to much higher churn rates and fewer new customers, particularly if there was no increase in speed.


How do you work out that 1Mb users are subsidising the lower speeds?

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

I know about AOL - but else offers Cable Modem services on NTL's network ?
(apart from NTL obviously!)

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

I thought Freeserve did, but now I said it - I'm 100%

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

I don't think that deal ever got off the ground Andy.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Why are we moving to metered water then, because unlimited use is not a workable business model.

You expect to turn on a tap and get full pressure (bandwidth) as an when you wish.

You water company will clamp down on you if you leave a tap on 24/7, don't fix a leak on your property or generally act in a manner that would result in significant increase in the water utilisation at your property. NTL will clamp down on you if you downlload 24/4, loan you bandwidth to your neighbours or generally act in a manner that results in significant bandwidth utilisation at your property.

NTL DO NOT CAP. If they did to stick with your analagy, they would stop you surfing, you would turn on a tap and no water would come out until midnight. They have guidance as to acceptable trafic limits and while I can see how you can exceed them some of the time, to do it all of the time is hard work. I would need to find enough stuff to full my HDD every 40 days. Where do i put it then?

When the internet becomes a workable method for video streaming at broadcast quality, VOIP becomes a globally used communication standard etc then the limits will require visiting, but at the moment, the increased speed is likely to give you a less waiting on your internet page loads, are you really going to be able to visit them 50% more quickly? For example, visiting this site, you still need to read the text of the posts. This takes much much longer than it did to download the page.

In fact in the time it has taken to write this post there has been no upstream requests, and the usual random flickering of the downstream light on my CM. Hardly bandwidth eating activity.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

As things stand at the moment, pre-increase of speed, 1mb users are subsidising the lower tiers, end of story.

If the two lower tiers are more popular, then why not do away with 1 mb altogether?
It is plain to see that 1mb users are being fleeced, maybe the ones who cannot or will not see this are either, a: NTL employees, or b; People with the sod you jack I am alright outlook on life.
I was on 1 mb broadband, NTL are forcing me to pay an extra £3 per month extra if I wanted to keep that speed, with the mention of an increase in speed at a later day, but that could be next year, and what is to say I want 1.5 mb?
The NTL marketing have made a balls up, but the fault comes from a lot higher up the greed ladder.
I am being given the choice of a faster speed at a cost, ianathuth , people on the other two speeds will eventually have an increase in speed with no increase in cost, now have the balls to tell me that is right?
Forget about, "well the two other tiers are the most popular"
If this is the case, NTL should just have them two tiers, and not be fleecing higher speed users.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Youre the one who mentioned metered water, not me.
Forget about what is technically possible etc for a moment.
If someone says to me that something is unlimited it means just that, unlimited, you can have what you want, what you can take.
NTL have problems with upstreaming, it is no use blaming a few customers who are taking what they were told they could have, what they are paying for.
It is upto NTL to either admit that they made an error when they said it was unlimited, and give customers the choice to cancel their accounts with a full refund of subs paid, or increase capacity with the money they are getting from their customers instead of the money going to dead wood at NTL and board level.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

I did?

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...&postcount=544

I can't find the post that I clicked quote on, but I can assure you that you mentioned water first.

But it does come down to what is technically possible and what a reasonable person would do.

To stick with YOUR water analagy. If everyone else on your street turned all their taps on so you were left with a trickle coming out of your taps that toook 5 mins to fill a glass you would be on the phone to the water co to fix it. If they turned around and said tough, you and your neighbours are all using all your streets water bandwidth and as we offer unlimited water then you will have to wait 5 mins for your glass to fill.

Anyway, now 750k is coming along the 600k users may find they are hitting the guidance more often. Me, i seem to get into these guidance limit debates, but don't consider my usage patterns would cause concern, even though when performing maintainance on web sites I can be piping a good few Mb up to them. As such it does not cause me to think irrationally, lose sleep or put any monitoring software on my PC.

In the same way, with summer holidays around the corner, those with 3 PCs, a router a 1.5Mb line and kids surfing, chatting, plaing on line games will probably be getting near or over the cap, but that should not worry them, it's the nature of the connection that it will be used more some days than others and it is highly unlikely that NTL will be coming after them.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

No-one is forcing you to do anything. If it's such a big deal, then drop down to the 750k service, and save yourself £10 a month.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Just from a personal point of view - I have the 1M - and I use it for gaming, Email and the occasional upload of files to my own website. I occasionaly download linux distros (when I need to upgrade/test a new version) and often listen to the radio through it when I am working. I also use it for work when I get the oppertunity to work from home, with a vpn connection.

I never have an issue with the cap, but then I never download a full linux distro three or four days on the trot.

I am happy with 1M, but was a bit miffed (well, ok, a LOT miffed :afire: ) when NTL decided to put the price up, but decided that I could afford to keep the service at its current level, as the benefit of that speed, and the upload speed when working at home of uploading web pages, was worth more to me than the cost in terms of my time by downgrading.

Now I get told I am to be "automatically uplifted" to 1.5M for no extra cost, so I feel vindicated.
Will I make the best use of the 1.5M - probably not, will I be chuffed when a large and complex page downloads in seconds, or I download a file from the office quicker than my boss does on his 512K ADSL ? damn right, after all, that's what I'm paying for.

Had they said : we are re-aligning the broadband tiers - here are your new options :

300K - 17.99 pcm
750K - 24.99 pcm
1500K - 37.99 pcm

I feel it would have looked better to most, and people would not be having quite such an issue with it. However - this is NTL, and they never do things the easy way. :dunce:

For my money (of which NTL will be getting a bit more now) it is still a good deal - but had they not uplifted the 1M by 50% I would have been considering going down to the 750K when it was available.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

I think you've got the right attitude to this Zovat...I know it's difficult to separate the two issues (price increase speed increase) but you're spot on.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Not interested in being involved in this argument but just to point out 1Mbit users in no way subsidise other packages, quite the opposite in fact they are the least profitable of the tiers.

The argument that they subsidise the other tiers is based on all 1Mbit users sticking to 30GB a month - the vast majority don't, some pull 250GB or more. Add that to the extra congestion caused on the upstream path from the 1Mbit users with 256k uploads and it soon becomes clear that they are the least profitable tier, they pay the lowest rate per kbit of the tiers both now and in the future after the price increases etc while downloading markedly more than the other tiers.

Well not really, just giving you the facts to be honest, whether you want to believe me and anyone else who tells you this or not is entirely up to you, but the above are the incontrovertible facts.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

I wonder if our friends in europe who have standard 3MB lines moan about people hogging there bandwidth!

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Some do, some don't - they don't moan like hell as soon as their 3Mbit service slows down to only 2 - 2.5Mbit or less during peak times, some of them are unhappy as they get a fraction of what they pay for, some of them are ecstatic as they get their full bandwidth all the time (you know that thing the UK expects and completely takes for granted - no apparent contention).

3Mbit is generally not the standard service - there are some exceptionally quick services that we don't have here, but few places where 3Mbit is standard rather than a premium product, don't believe all the hype.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Not what I've been told by my Dutch and Belgium friends

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Just to bring this into perspective : Telewest have recently announced a free 50% upgrade on all services : Their new price list is :

Hmmm 1.5 for 37.99 with no other service. of 35 with - Shame the two aren't competing....

(although 3M for £50 is not quite so tempting)

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

To tie the ends on my rant, I have dropped down a tier, also cancelled some of the tv channels.

Final point, the increase in speed from 1 to 1.5 mb is being at extra cost, the increases come in june, but the actual speed is somewhere in the future.
With the interest NTL will make on the £3 per month times the amount of subscribers taking 1mb bb, I find this a good move by NTL, until people realise they are being fleeced and take action.
The only ones coming out better out of the new prices in june are the ones on the lower two tiers, because they are not being asked for an increase, and when NTL do get their backsides into gear, they will get another bonus, a speed increase for no additional cost.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Place your calculations that show that 1mb users are the least profitable.
Dont blame 1mb users who only take what they are entitled to, get on to NTL and get them to increase capacity.
The fact is NTL touted an unlimited product, this is not only my opinion.
If your gripe is that some pull more than 30gb per month, what are NTL doing about it?
Sending out letters means jack **** imo, unless they back it up with a court case.
Will they do that? no.
Why? because the trading standards may have something to say on the matter.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Which of your two choice do you class me as ?

Ok, let me answer that for you - since I'm not an employee I must be the "sod you" category ..... except I'm not - but I am insulted by your post. NTL are not forcing you, or me, to do anything - when the price of something rises we have the choice of buying it or not. I choose to continue buying it.

If you don't want 1.5mb then you simply have to drop a level, or move - but remember - some of us are quite happy with the speed increase (which is in the next three months, not next year).

Please tell me where [or how] exactly am I being "fleeced". :confused:

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

If that's the case you only really need the 150k (or better the 300k when it's out), as there's very little benefit in browsing with much higher (certainly not at 1Mbps).

Sure it's faster but we're talking millisecond differences that make naff all difference to the user.


Okay, back these statistics up with evidence.

How do you know what the habits are of all the 1Mbps users on NTL and how do you know how profitable it is?

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

ok to answer points made since my last post

its been pointed out that 1mbit users are supposedbly the least profitable, I am basing my figures on guidelines been stuck to, its not my fault ntl allow people to download 250gig/month.

someone else made a calculation based on kbit/sec speed instead, this is a false valuation as it isn't a unmetered service.

to answer the confusions again 1mbit=300 gig is quite simply what you can download on 1mbit of bandwidth in 1 month if maxed out, what it is capable off, most metered products around the world are calculated like this. However because upload is still unmetered I didnt take that into account so the 1mbit users are getting better value for money on the upload bandwidth.

to answer a few more points, I doubt many people will spend 37.99 on a top tier service just so they can browse a fraction faster, the difference between 600kbit and 1mbit on 90% of websites is probably less then 10%, once you reach the higher speeds the advantage is gained with stuff that uses sustained traffic rather then bursty traffic such as downloading and streaming.

I am not going to argue that ntl are probably making the least out of the top tier package because it is probably true, but thats down to ntl's own mistakes, and how the packages are made up.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

The way I see it, there is a dismissive attitude here: "if you're happy with it great, if not downgrade or quit and stop bugging us because we're happy and don't like others moaning about it". I thought this dismissive fan-boy attitude was something left behind with the 'other' forum :erm:.

None of this addresses the real issue as to why on earth NTL have seen fit to hike the top tier price at a time when they should be decreasing prices to stay competitive? (remembering also that before Telewest stuck their finger in, it was going to be a price hike on just 1Mbps with no speed increase).

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

It is sadly a fact of life that some people do have the attitude that because they are not being asked for an increase it does not bother them.
If you feel insulted, I apologise.
When I was notified of the new price levels in my last NTL bill, I thought, "Why am I being asked for £3 per month more? when the other two tiers are not ".
There are many who feel the same way.
In fact, when I contacted NTL all their response was " Well it was all done by the marketing dept, I too think they made an error, but the new prices come into effect in june "
No mention of the speed increases by the way, which imo happen when they happen, what NTL tell you in publications etc do not believe.
If people are quite happy to pay the increase for something in the future then good luck to them.
Me? I prefer things up front.
A little like paying £1.20 for a four pint carton of milk in your supermarket.
You go in the following day and it is £4.20, when you question the price they tell you " well in three months time it will be a six pint carton."
Taking the above scenario, would I be justified in thinking I am being fleeced?

All imo ofcourse.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

agree with both of you, a few people are assuming the price rises are linked with the speed increase the two are NOT linked, ntl's original move was just a price rise for the top tier of users, they then made a pr move to increase speed's following telewest's action, how do I know this is true? Because if ntl planned it like telewest did then we would all have had our speed upgrade's by now.

Pem I wish you was a bit more open, and not be afraid to criticise when due, I know there are good points about the service but I am not afraid to criticse when its due and I dont believe you really think the service and the way its provided is 100%.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

I wonder - would Tranding Standards have anything to say ?.

NTL have changed the terms & conditions of their product - AFAIK - they are perfectly entitled to do this. So, by continuing to use it don't you imply that you agree to the new conditions - and the fact that it was once "unlimited" is not relevant anymore.

Credit card companies seem to do this all the time with their services - as do many other companies.

Perhaps some legal eagles out there could clarify this .... :)

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Here is how I see it.

Example 1 - NTL, customer signs up to min 12 month contract, after 12 months contract is each month rolling on. Customer cant cancel within 12 months, so ntl if I am right can change the terms & conditions but not during the initial first 12 months, if they did do this then I think they were in the wrong, but I am not sure on this tho.

Example 2 - Credit card, they do things liek change interest rate etc. but if a customer has signed up to a set rate then it doesnt get messed with, not as far as I know anyway.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

NTL wanted to increase the prices, end of story.
Their MD is quoted basically as saying he wanted to punish top users of the 1mb service.
As they release their increase, telewest have upped their speeds, NTL backtracking have to pull something out the hat, hence speed increase.
Price increase and speed increase are not linked, one came before the other, fact.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Sorry pem, as far as I know, NTL did not send me NEW TERMS AND CONDITIONS, which is why imo the ones I signed up to are relevant to me and other users who signed the same time as me or before.
The new conditions can only apply to people new to the service.
A little like your employment terms and conditions.
Your employer cannot change them without consultation with the workforce and union.
Why else would NTL not be willing to back up their threat of taking further action against people who go over the limit?
I am totally miffed by their approach really.
I think they are at a crossroads, they are happy just to send a letter out here and there hoping it will change people's habits, knowing full well that they cannot legally enforce their NEW rule on older accounts.
And while the situation is as it is, they dont have to increase capacity to deal with demand.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

I didn't see you posting about how unfair it was for the lower tier to increase by £3 per month last year when the two higher tiers didn't increase. Would you have thought it fairer to have only increased this by £1 and put the top two tiers up by £1 as well?

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

A prime example of contracts is where I work.
I am currently entitled to 22 days holiday plus bank holidays.
Any new employee can be taken on with a starting point of 20 days holiday including bank holidays.
To change my contract, they have to consult with me and the union.
Sorry to go off topic a bit, but just to highlight how I see it.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Um, if you think I do not criticise NTL [or anyone else] then you really need to read a few more of my posts - when someone/something needs criticising then I have no problem in doing it - and I have never said anywhere that NTL's service is 100% - it isn't - in some areas it doesn't even reach 10% (Luton's proxy servers are a prime example - they are pi$$ poor and the fact that NTL haven't sorted them out yet is a disgrace, they have been crap for ages) - but my overall experince of NTL (in Nottingham) is good - and I will continue to reflect this in my posts. :)

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

First of all IAN, I Wasn't here last year.
But to answer your question, yes it would be fairer imo.
I did say from the start that it would have been fairer to increase all speeds by £1 per month rather than one level getting hammered.
People I have spoken to at NTL have admitted there was one big **** up made by the marketing dept; but can they go back? no they cannot.
I was basically told the increases come in like it or lump it.
So, I have lumped it and stepped down a level on bb, and taken the movies and sports off my package.
If NTL want to lose more than the £3 per month they in their words, "made a mistake" that is up to them.
Me? I am very happy with the 600k to be increased at a later date.
Just dont confuse the speed increase with the price increase, the two are completely seperate.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

First off...they don't have to send them to you - there is what's called an implied contract, even if you didn't sign anything. If you did sign something, then you have agreed to a contract for 12 months only. If the terms of the contract (such as the price) changes within the 12 month period, you are entitled to quit the contract early.

EDIT: Sorry, should have mentioned at this point that if you signed the contract then you have agreed to be bound by the terms of the AUP - which is a separate document. I would imagine that if the terms of the AUP changed during your 12 month contract then you would also be able to cancel the agreement. END OF EDIT:

Second, what will happen in 5 years from now when (or if) the AUP has changed maybe once a year? You really expect a company to administer five different sets of rules? What about in 50 years from now?


No, not like your employment contract at all...The two are totally different in law. One is to do with employment, one to do with the provision of goods and services under the sale of goods act.

I don't think going over old ground about the cap on this thread is relevant. This thread is about price increases, the price and speed increases don't really have any relevance on the cap, apart from the fact that soon every BB customer will be able to hit their theoretical limit quicker.

I know it's a swine when the prices go up - I understand that - having been with that lot for the last 9 years, my prices have risen astronomically before, but before I've never got anything better for it. At least on this occasion there is some solace in the fact that you can get some extra bandwidth for your money - or pocket the money and take a small hit on the size of your bandwidth. :)

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Andygrif, I happen to think that the cap is relevant, as do many people.
And sadly, a contract is a contract, if it says unlimited it is that, unlimited.
If I want to break the, oops lets not talk about that word " CAP ", and NTL wish to persue the matter in the courts then let them try it.
I signed the contract for a minimum of 12 months, that contract is rolling, and I can cancel it within 30 days notice if I choose.
They do have to send you a new contract if they have changed any of the conditions of that contract.
What happens in 50 years time? I probably wont be here.
But if they change the terms and conditions I have to agree to them, as it is, I have not been sent or asked to agree to a new contract.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

ianathuth yes last year was unfair as well then, I signed upto ntl in august last year so probably wasnt around when the bottom tier went up in price, but that was unfair as well.

Pem ok thats cool :)

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

I don't really have much to add...apart from the fact that the contract is assumed as you are using the service...this is a point of law. If the terms of contract are changed you have a right to cancel, in the same way as you do once the minimum term of the contract has passed.

For the record, I don't mind talking about the cap...it's a relevant subject, but it's not relevant to the price increase.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Found it - You mentioned it first...

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...&postcount=543

If the water board say to you that you have unlimited use of your taps, it doesnt mean they can then moan if you leave a sprinkler connected 24/7.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

And what is wrong in what I said?
In addition to what I said about the water board, NTL touted broadband as unlimited, somebody tell me they did not, and I could find you somebody who will argue the opposite.
So, given that the service is UNLIMITED, how can NTL have the gall to then complain that people are being greedy?
They have only themselves to blame.
As I have stated before, the only way to deal with the matter is to increase capacity, which is not only my opinion, not now turn around to people and say "Can you keep your downloads to 1gb per day on your unlimited connection"
Does sound confusing doesnt it? a bit like your local pub offering unlimited pints of beer then moaning that not enough customers can get near the bar.
It is a blatant cheek on the part of NTL imo, and the sooner they actually do have the bottle to take someone to court for exceeding their unlimited use, the sooner their game, NTL,will be up.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Nothing is wrong with what you said. i'm jus pointing out the inconsistency in what you said when you said...

The water analagy is becoming quite a good one IMHO.

A question. How does the guidance limit affect your usage of the internet. Do you ignore it and hope nothing happens, do you curtail your use, or do you find it generally has no impact.

I'm the latter of the three choices.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Ok, I mentioned the water, but as you agreed it is becoming a good one.
Now, how does the limit, ( another word for cap ) affect my usage?
To be honest, it doesnt, because I get nowhere near the 1gb per day or 30 gb per month, because as I mentioned earlier I do not use the bb for downloading music, not that big a lover of compressed music.
If I wanted to exceed the limit? I would ignore it and just see what happens.
Would be interesting to see what would happen if someone did ignore the letters by NTL.
Now, must go fill the kettle with my unlimited water and make my cuppa before bed, have to start work at 5.30 in morning.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

Although NTL said that the service is unlimited they also said that users must not use their connections in a manner that affects other users enjoyment of the service (or words to that effect). Very hard not to affect other users even if you stay within the guidelines.

NTL would never take anyone to court for exceeding the guidelines for the simple reason that they would just remove your service if they thought that you was being unreasonable and refused to adjust your behaviour.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

I have been away from this thread since lunchtime for several hours, due to work commitments.

On my return, I see nothing really has been added except lots of threads from one persistently onerous user who despite the volume and frequency of posts has contributed nothing fresh or remotely interesting whatsoever.

Under the TOC of this site I would not name any individual or be seen to pick on anyone who is intellectually challenged, but if you think it might be you and have a guilty feeling, do as you suggested yourself 3 pages back and stop posting - it really is boring.

Everyone else, have a lovely evening.

Re: [merged] Price increase
 

On the subject again of ntl changing the t&c I am fairly sure now that I am right.

Wannadoo recently moved to metered packages but all their current customers are not affected, it only applies to new customers.

If you are on a 12month contract then the contract that was in place when you signed up applies to you for the 12months, then after the initial 12 months the new t&c would take affect, so if ntl did try to boot someone of the service, who signed up before the t&c was changed and then broke the new t&c within their original 12 months ntl would be breaking the law.