Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

I stand corrected, regarding the libel.

In regards to libel, I was thinking around his reporting and film (which I haven’t seen) regarding grooming gangs.

I thought his contempt was around “reporting” on some of the accused regarding grooming gangs.

---------- Post added at 22:56 ---------- Previous post was at 22:49 ----------

I didn’t say he was a folk hero.

The grooming gang situation needs a proper national enquiry, looking at all the various ones.

Rotherham, Halifax, Huddersfield, Telford, Rochdale, Oldham and any and all others.

This is what has sprung this. Jess Phillips, Minister for Women and heckled and berated at her election by Muslim men has rejected government support for such and enquiry.

Quite disgusting really.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

I think an inquiry might be the wise thing to do to help people avoid a sense of a cover-up and just politically.

But realistically I am not sure what would be different from the one they had in 2022 which also looked into exploitation of children by criminal networks. It wasn't especially about Rochdale because a separate inquiry was had into that.

As has been pointed out it might be better if Labour implemented all its recommendations. The previous government, who also rejected the called-for inquiry, didn't implement any of them despite how angry they are now: https://www.iicsa.org.uk/reports-rec...endations.html

Those were specifically about children exploited by gangs, there are more recommendations in the main report.

Again I am not against a new one if there is a remit that was not covered by the above but those calling for it should tell us what that remit is.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

And has been pointed out, facts (the Circular he mentioned) contradict what he said, so whilst he may be "considered a reliable source" normally, in this instance, he isn’t - he was repeating what he had been told by others, and what they told him was incorrect.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Far too many awkward questions to be answered with an inquiry.
Eg Why are they referred as "Asian gangs", when the common factor is Islam(eg groups of Somalis, especially in the Netherlands). How did the gangs form so easily with friends, neighbours, workmates. How did they easily find others wanting to abuse in other town and cities that the girls were trafficked to. IMO they aren't paedophiles as such, it's just girls that happened to be young and could be controlled easily.


Other types of gangs are where the primary motive is being paedophiles which don't form easily, and postcode gangs, where the motives are not sexual at all.

---------- Post added at 09:47 ---------- Previous post was at 09:33 ----------

He himself received a copy of the document. He was speaking first hand. Three years earlier, a police officer (DC Tony Crookes of South Yorkshire Police) also made the claim.
Link

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

From my previous post…

Your last quote refers to a CPS FOI request, not to the actual Home Office Circular referred to, which is still available on the Home Office website archives, and has been referred to, and quoted from, many times in this thread.

---------- Post added at 10:01 ---------- Previous post was at 09:56 ----------

Thank you - coming from you, that means a lot…

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

I've been having trouble sleeping, but slept like a log last night, your talent is such that it could put a glass eye to sleep, remember facts are our friends :)

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

2008 is after much of it had gone on. Not sure the circular is that relevant, as it seems to revolve around parental care, which is not where the problems were.

---------- Post added at 11:31 ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 ----------

The term "informed choice" is used in the Sexual Offences (Northern Ireland) 2008 Act. It is used in connection with whether somebody has a mental disorder and cannot make an "informed choice". Is that where the confusion comes from?
Link

Find it difficult to believe that dozens of police officers would've lied about it.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

what would be in it for them?

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

They did for Hillsborough.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Indeed. Here’s what was finally established at the 2016 inquest. They’re human, just as capable of being lazy, prejudiced or outright liars as anyone else, especially when their reputation’s on the line.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...yside-35473732

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

But that is the Circular that you insist is the basis for all the points you are making, as that is the Circular Nazir Azfal was allegedly referring to (even though he stated he hadn't actually seen it), and you keep referring to him as the source of your "evidence".

You can't have it both ways...

---------- Post added at 15:25 ---------- Previous post was at 15:18 ----------

Excellent news - glad to have been of service...

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

I'd be really grateful if you could deliver more drivel about 9 o clock, keep up the good work mate:tu:

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

I agree, I also don’t like the term “grooming” gangs.

They should be called exactly what they are:

“Islamic child rape gangs”

---------- Post added at 16:53 ---------- Previous post was at 16:49 ----------

I wouldn’t be using the past tense with this issue, I fully expect that it is still going on, somewhere.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

My feeling it with last as long as another story doesn't break, as with nearly all news storys

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

One can only hope, but unfortunately labour doesn't like changes leaders while they are PM

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

I think they did with Blair and Brown as the latter was called "the unelected PM" by his critics.

I can't see Starmer resigning either any time soon. I suspect he'll outlast Badenoch as a Party leader and if he learns from his mistakes, he'll have a second term.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

That will be first.....learning from mistakes

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Labour and any other party will stab their leader in the back just as fast as they stab the electorate in the back.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Speaking of stabbing in the back...

https://news.sky.com/story/farage-do...eader-13284086

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...5&d=1736087507

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Elon likes Tommy Robinson so watch that space :shocked:
and with enough of musk's money behind him who knows

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Do you not have a problem with foreign oligarchs interfering with British affairs? I mean sovereignty, nationalism and all that? Swap out Musk with Soros and the right-wing would be frothing at the mouth.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

This guy just has it in the UK, that's all it is. He wants chaos.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

If the labour party can send it's minions to campaign for Biden who am i to complain when the favour is returned.

---------- Post added at 15:46 ---------- Previous post was at 15:44 ----------

i think he's a bit nuts but that's just my opinion

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

British politicians need to unite to tell Musk to mind his own business and leave us alone. Who is he to dictate that the King should collapse the government or who the leader of Reform should be?

It's a shame Farage has more backbone than Badenoch really.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

With any luck Musk has peed off the electorate as much as he seems to have Farage.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Bare-faced cheek of Musk. No way he can judge who's best to lead Reform UK from where he sits. I'm looking forward to Trump booting him into touch when they have their inevitable fall-out!

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

i think it's a given that they will fall out, you can't have 2 apex predators in the same house

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Especially when they are hoovering Adderall and Ketamine in industrial quantities…

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Allegedly ... :)

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Think you've misspelled sex, there's no ap in it....

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

it's ok normal service has resumed

'Starmer must go' - Elon Musk launches new attack on PM amid feud with Nigel Farage

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...tarmer-must-go

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

I mean … does anybody care? It’s only media types who think Xitter is important. I guarantee you if Elmo’s dribbling wasn’t getting so many column inches in our Sunday papers, hardly anybody would even be aware of it.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Well, Musk has done one thing which few have achieved- he's united Cable Forum's posters, albeit against him! (And yes, I get that he's done a few more noteworthy things as well!)

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

To the extent that it matters at all … “Space Karen” is now trending on Xitter :rofl:

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Well, he is one of the richest men in the world who seems to have the ear of the incoming US President so it is newsworthy he is backing Tommy Robinson over Farage and calling for the UK government to be collapsed.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Neither of those attributes gives him either the power or the influence to bring any of his apparent desires about, tempting though be to believe it so. If he wants political influence in the UK the only viable way for him to do it even in 2025 would be for him to buy one of the major newspaper groups. For all his fulminating, the ‘legacy media’ still has enormously more sway in British public life than any social media platform, or the lunatic president-elect of any foreign country, up to and including the USA.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

The Telegraph's still up for grabs but he might fail the fit and proper owner test.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Well if he didn’t last week, he certainly does now.

Regardless, Elon is utterly naive about how politics works. He’s a quick study when the issue is maths and science - if you listen to him talk rocket science, it’s obvious he genuinely understands what the engineers at SpaceX are doing with his money. But politics is an art that requires relational skills he simply doesn’t have. At all. He doesn’t understand the British constitutional levers he’s fulminating over. Someone’s told him Charles can dissolve parliament so he’s demanding that like it’s 1629.

He genuinely seems to believe in political influence via meme and that Xitter has influence the waning ‘legacy media’ no longer has - so buying a newspaper group will be the last thing on his mind. As long as he persists in that belief he’ll be a nuisance but he won’t seriously affect anything, unless our ‘legacy media’ loses its collective schitt over him and gives him column inches, which will make it a live issue that actually might cause el gov a little bother.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Rumours that Musk's attacks on Starmer are because he dislikes the Online Safety Bill.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

"America should liberate the people of Britain from their tyrannical government."

:welcome::woot::woot: USA USA USA woo hoo were saved

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...e-keir-starmer

get those American flags ready for victory over Starmer day

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Weird how all these Brexiteers wanted sovereignty, but are now keen to raise the US flag.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

"all ?

even Rachael from customer services can count better than that

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Reach's understaffed tabloid The Express seems to be having a field day on all the free copy Musk is generating for it. I guess it makes a welcome change from the Princess Diana stories.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

I think he isn't after or seeking to do anything other than troll and get attention.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Wonder if Elon will be doing PMQ's as he seems to be the opposition

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

I will NEVER EVER was that dishcloth

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Well at least he has shown that sir kier is not a shop dummy*.:erm:
* correction shop dummy still has more life in it

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Making it up again as you go again :rolleyes:

[or just trolling again]. :dozey:

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...ght-bandwagon/

We’re all far right now.

https://youtu.be/LsbRrTULpgA?si=xEsCJl9VIN1_P_qj

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

I tend to think of it as being the rape for votes scandal.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Why?

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

If the cap fit's .....

---------- Post added at 09:39 ---------- Previous post was at 09:28 ----------

The news channels are buzzing with labour supporters trying to bury this

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Meaning, I think, politicians happy for girls to be raped and not be investigated for fear of losing the islamic vote.

and thats ALL politicians

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

As you probably have gathered, I don't hold a lot of our politicians in high esteem, but I think that is one conspiracy theory that even the Sunday Sport would rule out as being too crazy!

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Victoria Derbyshire issued a list of CSE Enquiries in the last 12 years.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...905082682.html

Professor Jay's latest comments

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

People are just weaponising the suffering of these poor children for their selfish political ends.

If they really cared about children's safety, they would have been pushing the previous government to implement the report's recommendations.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

weaponising by sweeping it under the carpet to gain votes and possibly protect the guilty.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Worked well for the Tories.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

If that's the case then you'll be ok with a new full inquiry?

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

I wouldn’t not be ok with it, I just don’t see what new information will be found after the previous recent one.

Just seems like a pointless delay if nothing new comes up.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

i would say I'm surprised by your answer, but your so predictable

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

What should a new enquiry cover that the previous ones didn't?

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Pot, meet kettle

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

:rofl: bless

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

OK maybe "happy" is being disingenuous, but I'm sure many were happy not to turn over too many stones for fear of losing the islamic vote and/or being labelled racist, after seeing how such accusations were labelled at Sarah Champion and Anne Cryer

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

As said today, we need action , not more inquiries, just to desperately try and score political points. The last govt did sweet fa.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Clearly not enough, as there have been something 50 towns/cities implicated.

There needs to be an over arching national enquiry that covers everything, especially the culture that enabled it to continue.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

What's the timeline for action?

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

This is a superb, excoriating piece of commentary on how the ‘New Left’ has driven many of the ‘Old Left’ (a.k.a. Working class Britons) into the arms of the Far Right. It’s by Kevin McKenna, a columnist in the Herald, which is a Scottish newspaper so one or two of his examples are from a Scottish perspective, but it takes in plenty of UK-wide issues and frankly IMHO is a must-read.


Paywall-dodging archive link:

https://archive.is/2025.01.07-084141...t-wing-rabble/

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

What exactly did you find insufficient about the 7 year long inquiry that included 15 investigations and produced 19 reports, and which of the recommendations do you disagree with?

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

That report lumped the Islamic Child Rape gangs in with other scandals such as the church, and Westminster, and a host of other issues (all valid btw) but to suggest it was a 7 year enquiry into Child Rape gangs is incorrect.

In regards to Islamic Child Rape Gangs which they call:
the recommendations they proposed were:

Notice anything missing from the above?

It doesn't focus on why it is predominantly men of Pakistani heritage, why they do it, why culturally they think it's ok to do to white girls and they don't really think they're doing any thing wrong.

Islamic is only used once in the report.

Muslim is only used when referring to the Muslim Council of Britain, or when talking about a young muslim boy that was abused (nothing to do with the Rape gangs)

Asian is mainly used when referring to the demographic of the respondents to the report.

In regards to the rape gangs it is a wholly inadequate report.

That is what I find insufficient.

In regards the specific report produced on "Child sexual exploitation by organised networks investigation"

It too fails to look at the culture of the rape gangs.

The reports focus on the safe guarding failures and hardly touches on the perpetrators.

What do you think exactly are the recommendations in the report that will get to the heart of the rape gangs and address the cultural entitlement Pakistani men in these communities feel they have to rape young white girls with impunity?

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

A very cartoon-like click bait article aimed to stir the populist rhetoric. He drones on about the "new left" without being specific and then goes on and on, using excessive hyperbole, about everything has been ruined by these mysterious people. The man just wants attention, he has no ability to discern detail or nuance, just extreme positions.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Islam might be a red herring, it might be more cultural than religious, there's a rape in India every 5 minutes apparently and in both India and Pakistan conviction is hard to obtain plus I remember Imran Khan victim blaming for what was called Pakistans rape epidemic a few years back by saying women weren't wearing enough clothes, no wonder I've seen the term rape culture in regard to India, Pakistan and Bangladesh if that's their leaders public attitude towards the crime

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

The problem is thick people very easily conflate Islam with Pakistani/Indian individuals and those of similar Asian descent.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

They do and for others it suits an agenda, in the same way criticism of Israel and their government equates to antisemitism. One thing I am quite sure off is that if Stephen Yaxley- Lennon has the answers, the question wasn't worth asking.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

It’s an excellent point, and of course not all Muslims would consider this, that’s a given.

I agree it would appear to be a cultural phenomenon of the sub-continent, as you rightly say it is also predominant in India.

I will reframe any future rhetoric around that.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

He made you think you might be ‘New Left’ then … ?

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

He made me think he is a rambling idiot and that anyone that takes the clown car of an article seriously needs to revisit reality.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

That’ll be a ‘yes’ then …

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

While I do think the religious and community leaders do need to visibly step up and discuss what they are doing to address the causes of these crimes and demonstrate what they are doing to prevent it, it is more than obvious this pearl clutching we see in the right wing media & from assorted trolls would not be happening if said offences were carried out by white gangs.

The reason this is overblown is to continue to fuel the fire about immigration into this country. All part of the ongoing narrative to subvert objective truth in favour of siloed, primarily social media based, "news" sources that can be controlled and manipulated to achieve a desired goal. You can see today's news from Meta if you want more proof of this.

---------- Post added at 22:19 ---------- Previous post was at 22:15 ----------

I have answered your question. You continue to troll if you wish ...

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

You have indeed, but not in the way you think. You’ve actually rather neatly proved the point that lies behind McKenna’s opinion piece.

Yes, it is an opinion piece. Of course it adopts a certain grand polemical style. It stands in a grand British Press tradition of using this literary form to call out hypocrisy and misbehaviour. The point is, as an intelligent reader, you’re supposed to price that in and then engage with the underlying argument. And tellingly, you refused (or are unable) to do so. Ironic, given that the point you are perhaps wilfully missing is that the ‘New Left’ is characterised by an abandonment of intellectual curiosity and a refusal to engage in debate, substituting instead diktat vis a vis acceptable opinions and public behaviour.

I don’t know where you think McKenna is coming from here, but do bear in mind that Scottish public discourse is traditionally ‘Old Left’ to borrow his phrase, and at present that is rubbing hard up against the ‘New Left’ project championed in recent years by the SNP and, while in coalition, the Greens. The fault line has a particular flavour north of the border, but his analysis holds true across the UK. When the (so-called) enlightened, metropolitan left lectures the traditional working class left on how to behave and what to think, it drives votes to the BNP, UKIP, Reform, whoever. McKenna is not a shill for any of these causes by any means.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Whatever dude. You can rationalise it anyway that makes you happy. The piece was written by an idiot and if you want to see it as the Emperor's New Clothes then please go ahead. If you also want to climb a high pulpit and preach on how only the enlightened can see through the polemic and digest the real majesty of the argument then, again, please go ahead. However, you do run the risk as coming across a bit pompous & patronising.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

I have to say this phrasing is so unlike you it crossed my mind that it might actually not be you.

I’m not here to cheerlead for any particular journalist, but I will simply point out that he’s been in the industry for decades, and writes for one of the UK’s major regional morning titles. Dismissing him out of hand just because you don’t like what he’s saying …. Well, you truly are making his point for him.

The real pity here is that I genuinely expected a bit more willingness to engage from you. Them’s the breaks I guess.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

I think parts of his underlying point, that the modern left has become disconnected from some of those it seeks to represent, is valid and also that not talking about issues like the grooming gangs and immigration cedes those issues to the right but that isn't something we didn't already know and he spends most of the article with cliched examples of it. It isn't insightful beyond that.

We know this change has been slowly happening for a while but the terminally online examples he gives are a symptom of underlying democratic shifts as opposed to the left-wing being hijacked by people on social media.

I think several things are happening. The most obvious one is that the left-wing base in the UK and America has shifted from manual workers without degrees to university-educated service workers. Labour voters are now more likely to have further education and are trending younger.

These people are more likely to be socially liberal rather than just economically liberal which is what I think he is getting at when he refers to 'old left'. This is where there is a disconnect and I agree that the broader left has had a problem speaking to social conservatives. The left isn't one big cohesive block but some elements of the left, especially online, have a problem speaking to the country at large as well. The Corbyn faction of the Labour Party hated Starmer doing speeches in front of the Union Jack but these people are a minority of the left.

But I think he is also making a mistake in thinking the working class is one big monolithic bloc that isn't itself also more fragmented.

What language and what families? I think he is now just invoking a mythical version of a working-class person from an old era. There are plenty of working-class liberals around. There isn't one language of the working class, one way of raising those families, and one type of food or entertainment for the working class.

The left can speak very well to some of them and not at all to others. The disconnect is higher when it comes to culture, age and education as opposed to class.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Your analysis Damien is leaps and bounds above the tired opinion piece which Chris shared. Thanks for taking the time to share this with the Forum.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

And herein is another example of the problem - those who are of the new left (younger, socially liberal, educated, i.e. people such as yourself) are simply dismissive of these issues. ‘Isn’t something that we didn’t already know’ … do you not see that for a huge chunk of the population, which feels distant and disconnected from those with power and influence, the obvious follow-up to that is ‘well why the hell aren’t you doing anything about it’? These aren’t cliches. Every one of the examples in the piece is current.

Seriously …. What is this word salad?

Your analysis is muddled because you’re doing the very thing you’re accusing McKenna of doing, and trying to force people into a limited number of very broad categories and as a result you’re miss-labelling people - badly. You appear to be trying to force Jeremy Corbyn into the ‘Old Left’. It’s true the tabloids would call him a Lefty Dinosaur and point to his support for state ownership and collective bargaining. However Corbyn is extremely socially liberal - something you obviously get at some level as you correctly identified him with flag-haters. But then, McKenna would identify with the New Left. We are used to the left-right divide in the UK being characterised in economic terms because Thatcher, and that habit is hard to break. But break it we must, because there has been a broad economic consensus in the UK since Blair. The fault line now is overwhelmingly as social one. Look at it that way and you stand a better chance of not misunderstanding people like Jeremy Corbyn.

In fact, McKenna’s entire thesis is grounded not in economics but in social policy, whether conservative or liberal/progressive. His complaint about the working class being told what to say, think and eat is a complaint about genderism and food and alcohol regulation, things which I admit may be less obvious to English readers but all of which have been addressed (sometimes very badly, IMO) in primary legislation in Scotland in the last decade. All of these tendencies exist UK-wide but the Scottish government has been under socially liberal control for some time now so the fault line is somewhat clearer here than you’re perhaps aware of.

Again, a little of it may be lost in translation. He’s addressing a Scottish audience and the population of Scotland is less than 6 million. There is a lot less variation in social outlook here. The Scottish Labour Party is much more socially conservative than its English branch is. The Scottish Tories are socially conservative, obvs. And as the nationalist cause begins to fragment, one of the main fault lines between the SNP and Alba is social policy. But again, as I said to Ian, don’t pick up a newspaper opinion piece and expect an undergraduate essay. Of course he’s writing in broad strokes. That’s the genre. There is however a serious underlying point and the pearl-clutching from Ian yesterday and your subconsciously dismissive approach to the ‘cliches’ he raises (also, predictably, Andrew, who seems excessively relieved that you had a go at a rebuttal) really do illustrate McKenna’s point very well indeed. These are problems that the ‘New Left’ can’t or won’t acknowledge, and mostly won’t discuss beyond a dismissive wave of the hand and a #Nodeabte.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

If it was carried out by white gangs, it would have been cracked down on immediately.

That's sort of the point.

There are white rapists and paedophiles, there's more of them in this country than those of Pakistani heritage. because we are still, for the time being, a majority white nations.

But the rape gangs of Pakistani heritage far out weigh their population %

Plus culturally, white abusers are unlikely to have a drunk or drugged teenager in their flat, and then call uncles, cousins, brothers to come over and rape her.

It's completely different and to try and deflect by claiming "racism", which is what you're doing is nothing but predictable.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

I am not being dismissive of the issues. I am being dismissive of that article. I do think it's an issue for the left that we've vacated the ground on important issues to voters to the right. I don't think this article is good. There has been a lot of writing about this problem at this point.

It was late and I had come back from the football but my point is what followed about demographics changing. I think that's important because it feeds into who exactly the left is losing and why which I don't think is simply about class.

No. I am saying Corbyn is one part of a left that has been disconnected from the people he claims to represent. Or more precisely the movement behind him. Illustrated by the fact it was his faction of the Labour Party that objected to the party using the flag of the country it aspired to represent. I don't understand how you read that paragraph as positioning Corbyn as the old left when he was an example I cited of the failure of the left to understand the country.

And I am saying that I don't think this is about class but education and, to a lesser extent, age. I think this divide exists within classes rather than between them. It's important because that's how we see who we're losing and why. After all the working class can be a young man working in a coffee shop in Edinburgh whilst doing this degree, a retired miner in a post-industrial town or a single mother from Hackney.

We're also seeing an increased gender divide as women go more left-wing and men more right-wing. Why? I think that will increasingly become the biggest problem for the left, how to speak to young men of any class.

Incidentally, the reserve question can be asked of the right. Why are the right losing ground with younger people, especially women, and with people who have more formal qualifications? The ground is shifting for everyone here.

This is talked about on the left though, you don't see it because you're not in that ecosystem. Ultra-lefty (far more left-wing that me) Novara was talking about this after the Trump Election: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x776NMQaV6k

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...9&d=1736352046

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...8&d=1736351833

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Is he a socialist?

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Who voted?

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Ooh yes, be careful of those socialists....
https://t.co/p6OtPdUlxR

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Can you actually "Run for Prime Minister" ?

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

No. You need to get 326 sympathetic people to run in constituencies across the country, win every single one of them, then get them to nominate you to be PM. There are 650 parliamentary constituencies and the only way to be PM is to be the person most likely to “enjoy the confidence” of a majority of the MPs elected to serve them.

You can add ‘constitutional illiterate’ to the long list of Mr Tate’s flaws.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

Nope, he’s a bell-end.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

More ad-hominen attacks. I guess you only "debate" people that agree with you. I am dismissing his piece not because I disagree with him but because it was a shambolic ramble about generic tropes. You liked it so good for you but please don't claim that if you don't "understand" it, you must be "New Left", a "no-debater", thick, etc.. I am more than happy debate points made by someone that has a cogent argument but he had none of these.

I really thought you were better than this. That is the end of this subject for me.

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

If I were to call you to come over in that situation I would expect either:

A. You report me to the police.
B. You distance yourself from me but possibly don't take any action.
C. You pop over to the flat.

I would guess C is the most unlikely, but for some cultures it seems it's not that clear cut.

There needs to be an inquiry that concentrates on the specific issue of these grooming gangs, the cultural element and why the authorities did not take action. The claims that the police and social services have learnt from it is not a good enough answer, the public needs to know what lessons they have learned and what action is being taken.

My wife is a social worker, she has worked for a number of local authorities and previously worked with similar vulnerable children. She told me many years ago that almost every town has at least one kebab shop or the like known to the authorities.

She has taken on cases where the white social workers have been afraid to take action because of the threats by certain cultures, for example where the males tell her they don't have to speak to her because "she is a woman" or threaten to report her for being racist. My wife is black, so unlike most white social workers she's not afraid of the racist label, she tells them to crack on and report her.

I don't think Starmer wants anything to do with an enquiry, because I think we are potentially looking at something which will end up being called the "Rape for votes scandal".

Re: Starmer’s chronicles
 

we're already there