Re: Hamas Israel War
 

But what about the 76% of the current population of the Gaza Strip who are under 35, therefore couldn’t have voted for Hamas in 2006, do?

btw, no one (except you, apparently) thinks "suck on that" means "learn from it" - the definition is

whilst "jihad", on the other hand

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Those under 35 will also learn from the fact that people voted for a terrorist organisation and what that ultimately meant for their country.

I don’t think that was so difficult to understand.

---------- Post added at 16:43 ---------- Previous post was at 16:41 ----------

I don’t much care what you think about this, Hugh. I’m telling you what I meant.

And by the way, different definitions do exist for that phrase but I’m not trawling the dictionaries to make the point. I have better things to do with my time.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Agreed.

Whilst I can't find a dictionary that supports Old Boy's understanding of the "suck on that" phrase; and he's not chosen to provide one either; I'm happy to give him the benefit of the doubt and accept that he used the phrase to mean "learn from that".

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Interesting to read the comments in bold from the UN Chief.
https://www.ft.com/content/61c23c82-...9-ecdebb86c839

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=suck+on+that

hth…

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Since you all are in the sucking business, I posted a suck-ling offer for you in the website section. :D

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It’s a bit boring now.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

this is London

https://www.facebook.com/reel/294554...ibextid=kcDB8O

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

This is London

https://www.hackneygazette.co.uk/new...ain-suspended/

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

touché :)

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Quite rightly suspended, not something you should be doing while working, esp driving a train full of people.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Agreed

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Who are "they"? the tube people looked quite white, and they were very spontaneous for their support to Palestine. Corbyn is an indigenous species & white too.. One lady looked Somali/Eritrean but she could have been in London for generations... She is one of us - Londoners.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2023/10/3.gif

---------- Post added at 15:46 ---------- Previous post was at 15:46 ----------

Seph is a big fan of the "Great Replacement Theory"...

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The Gaza/Palestine issue has now entered the pantheon of luxury beliefs that white middle class halfwits can get behind. Demonising Israel now puts you on the right side of history.

Oct 7th is now History and conveniently forgotten and Israel are now the evil ones.

They call for a ceasefire by which they mean Israel to stop firing, but Hamas continue to fire rockets into Israel.

Israel still has a mandate to eliminate Hamas.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Opposing genocide - generally - puts you on the right side of history.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Yes, genocide….open prison….let’s play Gaza bingo.

Considering the population in Gaza has increased year on year. The Israelis really need to improve their genocide techniques as they obviously haven’t been working.

Anyway, it’s the supporting terrorists bit that tends to irk, but then when everybody around you supports terrorists, it makes it a lot easier for you to, too.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

In Seph's support, as he said, it did happen in Fiji, they lost their country to the Indians. Bula, Bula.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

And Lebanon.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Please explain. Phoenicians were the majority, no?, I have not been following. Hezbollah is not in control (?)

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The obvious way to avoid Gaza bingo is to not create situations that justify the comparisons.

I’d be interested to know if the population of Gaza is still increasing, using everyone’s favourite arbitrary starting point of 7 October. The population of northern Gaza looks to be lower.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Lebanon was considered a Christian country, but the Muslims have now taken over and Hezbollah are a driving force of that.

Israel had to come to the defence of the Lebanese Christians.

Thing is minorities in the region do very poorly. Christians and Jews don’t do so well in inclusive and tolerant islamic countries.

Imagine how well Jews would flourish in a Palestinian controlled state?

I doubt very much their population would increase….that’s a fact.

---------- Post added at 22:57 ---------- Previous post was at 22:50 ----------

And whose fault would that be?


Hamas?

Then blame Hamas for the situation in Gaza and not Israel.

Blame Hamas for killing their own people.

I’d rather see anti-Hamas demonstrations than pro-Palestinian (I.e. anti-Israel)

But you don’t.

I haven’t seen any anti-Hamas rhetoric anywhere, at all. (Please post here if you see any)

That’s all you need to know.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It’s a perverse interpretation of events to solely blame Hamas. At some point Israel deserves criticism for its actions.

I don’t think it’s particularly helpful to tar pro-Palestinian demonstrators as “anti-Israel” because they oppose Israel’s actions.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Not as a category, no. But rather a lot of them were chanting or waving the ‘from the river to the sea’ slogan in London today, whose meaning is pretty clear.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

And with this one sentence JF you lose all credibility. We can talk about history. But Israel has had no interest in Gaza for 18yrs. There have been isolated incidents over the years that I recognise, I can’t list them but acknowledge they’ve happened, but they have not been coordinated attacks to cause as much death and terror as possible.

So in regards to Oct 7th Hamas are 100% solely to blame.

It does, and it’s getting it in spades.

Not from me, I think it’s ill advised and not the approach I would take. But I can understand why.

May not be helpful but it’s true.

Those thousands of people in London are 100% anti-Israel, 100%.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I think it’s a contentious phrase, however it suits a particular narrative to pretend that it has a clear meaning. It’d be impossible without surveying everyone who actually chanted it to know what they meant by it.

---------- Post added at 23:25 ---------- Previous post was at 23:23 ----------

You’ve moved the goalposts here Pierre.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Why ?

Well you seem to have stepped in to do that in spades.
Its pretty much the theme of every post of yours in here (and other topics, where btw, it does not belong).
You should offer your PR services to Hamas.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

As I said at some point Israel becomes responsible for its own actions.

I’ve no great desire to do PR for a proscribed terrorist organisation. However I’m more than happy to call out the injustices being carried out by the Israeli state on the people of Gaza. I don’t think it’s fair to imply that is somehow PR for Hamas.

I’ve made references to Israel in one other topic where another poster made accusations of BBC bias for a story they ran that was also carried by large US outlets at that time and an event still disputed by some outlets. I don’t consider that particularly unreasonable.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Wrong. The tactics of Bomber Command were controversial even at the time. Churchill himself was far from convinced that the area bombing of civilian targets was justified, morally or strategically. If you’re in any doubt as to how widespread public unease became once the fate of Dresden and other cities became known, note that after the war, no monument was erected to Bomber Command. There was no monument until 2012. Arthur Harris got a statue 8 years after he died, and only because a RAF veterans trust set up specifically to defend Harris’ reputation organised it. Is there any other senior British military leader who warranted an organisation specifically geared towards defending him?

When shown the results of the Dresden firestorm raids Churchill is said to have asked, “Are we beasts? Are we taking this too far?”

If there was room in Churchill’s reflections for questions like that even at a time of national existential struggle, then we are entitled to ask Israel’s leaders to behave similarly. National defence is justified. Offensive operations in pursuit of national defence are justified. But it is quite possible to go too far even in an existential struggle. Is anyone at the top of the Israeli government asking those questions? Because it doesn’t look like it right now.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

"Bleating about civilians" isn't a bias.

I'd say there's a major difference between a terror group numbering the small tens of thousands people in a controlled territory and Nazi Germany - which at it's peak covered about an area of Europe comprising 280 million people and all the industrial capabilities that come with.

Hamas are tiny opportunists by comparison.

The elections are a complete red herring and no justification for the killing of civilians - which it seems somewhat to be implied.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Parallels between WWII are inevitable. The allies did not need to obliterate Dresden, or drop the Atomic bombs on Japan. The war was won already.

The damage caused by the atomic weapons wasn’t much worse from conventional bombing but it showed what 1no. Bomb could do v’s hundreds of conventional ones. Did they need to drop another?

The difference is, Israel’s objectives have not yet been met. Hamas has not been destroyed and their infrastructure has not been destroyed.

Until they’re satisfied, I think they’ll continue.

---------- Post added at 20:19 ---------- Previous post was at 20:15 ----------

Comparisons between WWII and this are unhelpful, I’ve done it myself. Maybe some parallels can be drawn but they should scrutinised as to their relevance.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Actually, it’s not…

The adverse treatment of civilians in WW2 led to a new (the fourth) Geneva Convention, specifically to provide for the protection of civilians in wartime.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I don’t think those additions have changed anything, in regards to this operation.

Its main objective seems to be to prevent slave Labour.

Such conventions exist only to be ignored by the superior power at the time. IF that power is defeated, then they may be brought to justice.

This one made me laugh

sounds like a decent description of thermo-nuclear weapons, they did well banning them, didn’t they?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

World War was 80 years ago. Standards that were acceptable then are no longer accepted now.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

As previously stated, the Geneva Conventions have been updated since WW2 to specifically increase sanctions against those who target civilians

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

If the whiners could provide the Israelis with the definite locations of Hamas military targets, then no problem. There isn't a clearly defined front line with targets in open view to aim at.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The onus isn’t on Hamas to present itself for annihilation. The absence of that doesn’t justify carpet bombing civilian areas, bombing churches, hospitals, refugee camps, etc.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Technology has changed. People's access to a range of media that provides a more rounded view of events, and information more rapidly and graphically have changed. People's reaction to the Dresden bombings would likely have been different if they saw the results on their TV screens every morning.

And whilst the law always plays catch up to technology and social change, that has changed too, as Hugh has outlined.

---------- Post added at 09:34 ---------- Previous post was at 09:33 ----------

It's not really a constructive way to engage with others by calling them whiners. You wouldn't call someone that in a debate down the pub so why do it online? :confused:

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

So where are these clearly defined targets? They are mixed in with other buildings. The whole area is one giant front line.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Hiding/shielding enemy combatants in civilian areas, churches, hospitals, refugee camps etc is also a war crime.

So what does Israel do if it has to go through human shields to achieve its objectives?

https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.ne...OHF5GGSLRBV4ZA

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Interesting, even-handed (imho) article in today’s Times Comment section

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9...6f9b9155c3c2d1

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

A lovely thought experiment is just that, regardless of how well educated the thinkers are.

A quick skim does however point to wider considerations around proportionality- including necessity. Considering the minimal threat Hamas actually pose to Israel - there is no “clear and present danger” from Hamas to Israel who have more than adequate defensive capabilities to defend themselves from rockets.

It’d be interesting to know if Israel are keeping tabs on what “legitimate” military target is being destroyed for each of the thousands of bombs being destroyed since there’s probably now more than 1 bomb per Hamas militant.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It's a fair article. I think everybody will in agreement that an invasion of Gaza will be bad for everyone - all round, with absolutely no certainty that the IDF will be able meet their two objectives. On that point he is correct, and uses that argument to say the war is not just because for a just war you need to be able see the outcomes.

But he offers no ideas on what Israel should do, instead.

His quote from Aquinas, that he then ignores is also prescient:

Hamas are the very embodiment of evil.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

And what’s displacing a million people and raining bombs down on them, cutting off electricity, fuel and food supplies if it’s not evil?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The IDF does not = Hamas, if you want to try to twist that false equivalence go ahead, as you have several times.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I’m not claiming the IDF are equal to Hamas. They’re only following orders, as the military saying goes.

I’m asking if the description I made, on its own merit, without being conflated with the actions of anyone else, could be considered evil?

I think if on a human level your answer is no, or starts ‘but…’ you have a problem.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I don't think it's evil. If it was the IDFs one and only objective to purely kill civilians, cause terror and fear to make a political point, take pleasure in the suffering and rejoice at all the deaths...

Then I would call them evil.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Nobody said it was “purely” an objective to kill civilians - merely that it was a specific and controllable outcome from their actions.

If Israel’s point isn’t political, then what is it?

I’m certain somewhere in Israel there will be people taking pleasure and rejoicing. If we can have one person in this thread alone - then it’s certainly going to be a not insignificant minority of Israelis who have a vested interest.

I’d love the thoughts of those Stanford academics on specifically the blocking of food and water in aid convoys. When and where can that be justified? What military objective is achieved?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

In the absence of clearly defined targets, what else is Israel expected to do? Nothing, but wait until the next attack?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Nobody has suggested Israel “do nothing”.

Israel will always be waiting for the next attack regardless.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I think "evil" would be greatly impacted by motivation. Acts can be terrible but not evil.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

What motivation can one have for restricting the supply of food and water to a million people you’ve displaced?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I know nobody said it. My point is if that was their objective, then I would call them evil, but it's not their objective. It is a very sad outcome from operations they would deem essential. but they are not doing it purely for that reason.

That's why I differentiate between Hamas - evil, IDF - not evil.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Really? If there are no clear separate targets, what do they do instead of attacking near other buildings? If the population of Gaza was so against the aims and ACTIONS of Hamas, why aren't they complaining about it?
The actions of Hamas have to have consequences, otherwise the actions will continue unabated and not criticised by many. How many of those clamouring for a ceasefire now, were clamouring for a ceasefire from Hamas before?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/pr...hts-defenders/

https://www.timesofisrael.com/protes...-they-persist/

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Do you think, considering it’d be a gross violation of international law, any nation state would admit to those motives? Or do you think they’d disguise it under the cover or some other motive?

Hypothetically.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

An excellent speech from Netanyahu this evening.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I no longer answer my phone....I get emails from both sides like this

I don't understand how you can sleep at night , get on with your day or feel okay to look yourself in the mirror knowing you will go down in history as those who didn't speak up with every power and platform you have .

You gave up before you started , you didn't even have the backbone to research and find out what is morally right . Rather like a coward you have believed the very propaganda that you taught us to dissect and analyse, critically review and strategically make educated and academic opinions on.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Given Netanyahu’s speech at the press conference this evening, I’m sure it is now widely available to listen to.

Is there anything in that speech that the class disagree with?

https://www.youtube.com/live/LuAFVV-...KiK1_32UVubEUE

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

No idea, I dont have 30 minutes of my life to use up listening to it. :erm:

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

His speech is only about 6mins followed by press Q&A, but the Q&A is also interesting.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Do you mind my asking … who is it you’re acquainted with that’s sending you this stuff? Are these genuine friends, business acquaintances, or mailing list emails you’re getting?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Rafah crossing is opening temporarily tomorrow to allow 81 named seriously injured Palestinians to receive medical attention in Egypt, CF exclusive there ;)

The amount of aid getting through will dramatically increase over the next couple of days too

Unconfirmed reports of Cypriot air traffic control trying to establish the identity planes which may prove interesting in the coming days/ weeks

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Cyprus (well, the South) is offering to facilitate being a Humanitarian Corridor

https://cyprus-mail.com/2023/10/31/h...ays-president/

When I flew out from Larnaca on the 23rd, there were a lot more armed military in the airport.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

A good article by Guardian columnist Jonathan Freedland, concluding

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...onflict-horror

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Most of it, is anonymous. I worked in Haifa and Tel Aviv (few weeks every year). Colleagues from USA, Canada, Arab countries, Israel, pressure me to make a statement under my work's name ("platform"), which I am not allowed to do ("inappropriate behaviour") or willing to do.

I do not answer the phone, because journalists try to trick you on saying something stupid and report it or ....I will tell them to f-off, as I have a short fuse and then report it.

The last purple sentence is from one of my students in London ...

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

This is awful, so sorry to hear this. :(

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

https://www.skysports.com/football/n...ial-media-post

I have been given prepared text to reply to emails. If I am in difficulty (the prepared text does not fit as reply), then somebody will prepare something new for me....

I guess ChatGPT prepared....

I feel so free....

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Well, you’re free to move to any Islamic country, if you consider this country not free enough.

Let me know how you get on.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Any suggestions? Red wine is a must. Why Islamic?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The censorship of what is polling as the most popular stance in the UK at the minute, to support a ceasefire, is truly frightening.

No more can we ask how people stood by and let the Holocaust happen. For we are witnessing the playbook before our very eyes. Dehumanising Palestinian life, intimidating anyone who speaks up for them. In time, some of what has been said in the last few weeks will go down horrifically.

By our politicians and in this thread.

At least we can put to bed the claim Israel don’t bomb hospitals. But it’s alright though, “terrorists” use them. And ambulances. And churches. And refugee camps. And civilian areas.

So Israel can destroy Gaza, and push everyone who lives there into Egypt, carrying out ethnic cleansing but it’s fine though, we can trust them to be honest about the evidence.

---------- Post added at 21:55 ---------- Previous post was at 21:47 ----------

Aha, it all makes sense now. I’ve enjoyed much of the debate Pierre, but I’ve overlooked this on page 1 which explains your difficulty to move beyond Israel’s claims to, on any human level, sympathise with Palestinians.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Iran, enjoy the wine.

I’m just surmising you’re getting grief for a pro-Palestinian stance that is impacting your right to free speech. Well I’m sure you’ll get a more sympathetic ear in an Islamic state. Just remember to wear your hijab.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

She will get a sympathetic ear among the vast majority of people in this country who support a ceasefire. Israel had little sympathy among the population at large to start with, it certainly has less now as it engages in war crimes.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

On what do you base this exactly ?

and this ;
Also, what War Crimes has it been convicted of ?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Egypt don’t want them, no other Islamic state bordering want them.


Ethnic cleansing…this is from 5 years ago but still very pertinent


https://youtu.be/35eEljsSQfc?si=1DvidO77lkc6sZLp



I posted that on the day of the atrocities by Hamas, it was an emotional response after watching the initial videos being circulated and the reports coming in, but I don’t shy away from those comments. Hamas is an evil death cult that should be wiped from the Earth, it manages to survive by wrapping itself with the population of Gaza.

It’s war, it’s survival, will innocents die? Yes, because it’s war, because it’s survival.

Do I want that? No. But it’s not about what us here nice and relatively safe in the U.K. want, is it?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

There’s polling to say that the majority of people support a ceasefire. A larger minority opposed flying Israeli flags above Government buildings in the immediate aftermath of the terrorist attacks than the minority who supported - with a sizeable “don’t know”.

Much like criminal law, a conviction doesn’t mean events didn’t happen.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

People in this country have no right to demand Israel to do anything, talk about imperialistic privilege, something I know you like to talk about now and then.


I’m pretty sure all the British marching on London, would think differently if it was their baby beheaded, their child kidnapped and held hostage, their wife executed, their husband tortured, their elderly parents slaughtered.

Those marching in the U.K. are able to display their “luxury beliefs”….it costs them nothing and they can appear to be “right on” with their annoying non-binary blue haired friends.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Nice bit of BS - but thats not what you said at all.

Another vague response that really answers nothing and does not support your statement (and also, read it again, I dont think it even makes sense).

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

That’s the problem with making assumptions without context or confirmation - I read Ms Ntl’s post to mean she was getting flak for not speaking up in support of the Palestinians…

And I read the last part to mean they weren’t allowed to, but also didn’t want to, make supporting statements for any side.

Only Ms Ntl knows, neither of us do…

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I appreciate this recognition and providing further context. I do take back my comment in that case.

It isn’t about what we want, of course, but in both sides of a war there’s emotionally involved people that need direction and support to do the right thing from outsiders. It does indeed appear that America are trying to take on this role but Israel are backing that Biden fears the pro-Israel lobby at home. Blinken’s impotence at the start of this is indicative.

However he is asking that Israel take civilians into account; an odd request if he confidently believes they are.

---------- Post added at 22:30 ---------- Previous post was at 22:27 ----------

If more people oppose flying a flag in solidarity than flying it; I think it’s reasonable to say that there’s little sympathy. Or at least less than more - I was merely providing Ms NTL assurance in that regard.

Other people can take a different view but it’s exactly the type of virtue signalling cost nothing action that should easily have the support of a majority if they believe their cause to be just.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Correct, but the post was made with a link in it to a story about a footballer that had lost his job for posting pro-Palestinian rhetoric…..

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Checked, wine is not allowed.


Checked, cross-dressing is not allowed. :D

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I also thought you were female.

---------- Post added at 11:10 ---------- Previous post was at 11:08 ----------

An aside , if the IRA started up again, should the UK bomb the republic as Israel is in Gaza

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

You’re comparing apples and decapitated heads.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Pierre was on a roll: He wanted to flatten Gaza, told me to convert to Islam, move to Iran and wear a hijab.

I am male, agnostic (I cannot convert to anything), I have no intention of moving to Persia, and the hijab will clash with my beard.:D

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Yeah, well maybe if you didn’t call yourself Ms NTL, you’d be oh so clever.

It’s like me calling myself Susan then sniggering when somebody thinks I’m female………oh the fools.

I still stand by all the items on my roll. I reckon you’d still suit a hijab.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

A point worth noting this morning when considering any information released by Hamas:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67321241

Mouzak and his crew are profoundly unserious people if they think they can continue to claim “it didn’t happen, and it wasn’t us anyway it was those armed Hamas people” even while journalists are playing back videos of the massacres of children right in their faces.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

This is why I don't understand why the BBC and MSM, blindly report death figures from the Gaza Health Ministry aka Hamas.

I'm not belittling what's going on, or reducing it to a numbers game. but what was the last count 10,000 + 3,500 children dead. I mean of course it wouldn't play to their advantage to over inflate the figures to put more pressure on Israel would it?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I’ll file it next to the IDF claiming they don’t target civilians with my photos of all the hospitals, refugee camps and churches that have been bombed. Alongside whole neighbourhoods razed to the ground.

I trust you aren’t using this to dispute the headline figure of civilian casualties, women and children killed? If anything even the Israeli’s think it’s an undercount.

---------- Post added at 08:35 ---------- Previous post was at 08:32 ----------

Of course it could be that it’s the only health ministry they have. There’s been little indication they’ve fudged the figures over the years.

Even Israeli sources are quoting 20,000 killed, and US sources questioning whether the Israeli actions are even making a dent in Hamas capability.

It’s more likely the BBC and others are using “Hamas run” to give Israel that cover to dispute the figure, which it appears they don’t even bother to do.

By anyone’s count the Israeli’s have killed more civilians - and far more children - in a month than Russia’s special military operation in Ukraine has in around a year and three quarters. An armed conflict that has saw Russia secure 20% of Ukrainian territory, something around the size of the UK. Gaza is a mere city being obliterated with no regard for the civilians living there.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Actually I was using it mostly to nudge the thread back on to some relevant discussion, and because Marzouk happens to be on the front page this morning.

The apposite phrase right now would seem to be a plague on both their houses. Hamas is a murderous terrorist organisation with no interest in behaving according to international norms even while it presents itself as the legitimate government of Gaza. ‘Hamas run’ seems to me to be a well-calibrated phrase allowing the BBC to report what it says while allowing the possibility that it might not be reliable.

And there is no sense in which Israel’s response can be considered proportionate or strategic. It’s straight up vengeance with no regard for what comes next. I note this morning they’re now talking about taking on security responsibility for Gaza once this is over, which sounds like they’re preparing for occupation but are unable to call a spade a spade. If they go through with that, they’ll make Belfast 1972 look like a shining beacon of tolerance and respect by comparison.