Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Boris is due some success, so far he's been the Thomas Cook of Prime Ministers. He's just shown what a better PM Theresa May has been. She must be grateful that someone of his calibre stepped into her shoes.

I can't see that it's in the EU's interests to not grant an extension as it increases the likelihood of our remaining a member.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

ComRes for The Telegraph:

https://twitter.com/Andrew_ComRes/st...00702866591744

Prorogation seems to have been a disastrous decision by Boris Johnson. Unpopular with the public, involved the Queen, rebuffed by the Supreme Court, caused splits within the party, united the opposition (who were at each others throats over the Summer!) and didn't even do what we think they intended!

If this outrage was the clever scheme Dominic Cummings intended it's hard to see what the end goal of all this is...

---------- Post added at 22:10 ---------- Previous post was at 22:08 ----------

No because we know what the voters would do:

1) Elect a Remain-supporting Government but vote to Leave with No Deal

2) Elect a No Deal supporting Government but vote to Remain.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Dominic Cummings seems to be the best thing that's happened to Jeremy Corbyn this year. ;) I bet he cannot believe his luck!

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

In the same ComRes poll, 60% agreed with the statement “Parliament has had plenty of time to debate Brexit and we should just get on with leaving the EU".

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Boris still seems pretty confident that we are still leaving on the 31st October. unless he's been very smart about the whole thing and he really wants to stay in the EU and exhausting all options to leave but in the process pleasing the leave voters into thinking he's done everything he can for them.

Just a theory

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

That's a pretty low bar you are holding the Prime Minister of this country to. Is this how far we have regressed?

---------- Post added at 23:01 ---------- Previous post was at 23:01 ----------

But hey, what does polling know? Mick is right on this one ..

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Late into the discussion, that's the trouble with working for a living . . .

Anyway:

Lady Hale said: "The court is bound to conclude therefore that the decision to advise Her Majesty to prorogue was unlawful because it had the effect of frustrating or preventing the ability of parliament to carry out its constitutional functions.""

I don't get this at all, surely ANY proroguement (is that a word? ) of Parliament has the effect of "frustrating or preventing the ability of parliament to carry out its constitutional functions"

any good lawyers on here? :D

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

The public are clearly idiots.

(Not for that one specifically but the at face value contradictory nature of that one and the one you quoted).

---------- Post added at 00:47 ---------- Previous post was at 00:31 ----------

If you’d accept the attempt of this amateur armchair lawyer I think the view would be any time Parliament is prorogued previously isn’t against the backdrop of a deadline and is usually for the stated reason - to deliver a new Queen’s Speech.

Governments losing this many votes would generally be out the door and a General Election called. Making these very unusual times.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Wow, how obnoxiously ignorant can you get? :dozey:

people vote a different way, or view to you and you refer to them as idiots. They are right though, our toxic Parliament has had plenty of time to scrutinise, seizing the order paper, making stupid laws.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Parliament comprises our directly-accountable representatives awwho have to answer to their constituents. And they've not had any proposals from BoJo to scrutinise.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

No they have their proposals, that’s why it’s toxic, they are not representing the people, who instructed them we voted to leave.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

We don’t leave on Oct 31st and general election in November is the only outcome I can see.

I don’t think BoJo has a nuclear option available that he can use.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Same here.

---------- Post added at 08:02 ---------- Previous post was at 08:01 ----------

None at all..

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Totally agree.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

That's not what I actually said.

If people "want Brexit done" it's bizarre they also think prorogation is unlawful.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

This has gone a bit under the radar over the weekend because of Brexit but this story about a women alleged to have been a temporary girlfriend of Boris Johnson getting multiple tax payer handouts whilst he was London Mayor might be worse for him: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/999296...arcuri-handout




It seems he won't deny he had an affair with her and whilst that was going on it appears she was paid with taxpayer money to go on multiple trade trips with him and her company was also getting money from public funds whilst he was Mayor.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Corruption everywhere!

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

The whole system is corrupt, the way in which we renumerate MPs encourages corruption and sharp practice, so we shouldn’t be surprised when they are caught at it.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

few of us said on here we still be in EU on 1st November and then you see the ERG drop Johnson like a ton of bricks

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

How about this scenario from a PM that *probably* knows he has nothing left to lose . .

PM plays the game up until the last minute, then goes to the EU and tells them we are leaving, there will be no extension asked for. PM then resigns in November when everyone starts screaming for his head.

General election returns Lib Dem with massive majority, who then try to get the UK back into the EU . . leading to another 3 years or more of bitter arguments :D

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

It's when he was Mayor of London being paid £140k a year.

---------- Post added at 11:24 ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 ----------

That would put BJ into the history books, but perhaps not in the way he wanted.

However, it's more likely the scenario below.

https://news.sky.com/story/boris-joh...chief-11804290

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

What world are we living in????
Boris Johnson should be booted out of Parliament immediately for what he did.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Yep, he's a very naughty boy isn't he.

He'd have had less of a slapping if he decided to collude with a foreign power to bomb the crap out of a country that didn't have any WMD anyway, just like that nice honorable Mr Blair did

Perspective

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Less perspective more deflection.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

I'm simply pointing out that people are trying to hang a guy for doing something 'which he took legal advice on' and was then found by a panel of Judges, to be 'unlawful'

Nobody died, the global terror threat hasn't been significantly increased, companies and individuals haven't made a vast fortune from the rebuilding of infrastructure etc.

Remind me again of Blairs roles after his PM stint

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

An interesting point was thrown up by the Supreme Court judgement. Here's a quote;

This seems to clarify that we, as voters, do not vote for Government and Government is only answerable to Parliament. Or, in other words, Government only exists because Parliament wills it.

This puts the whole idea of following a manifesto in to the light. It seems that once in Government, the promises made in the manifesto are legally moot

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

That's always been the case though.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

That's probably one of the few things everyone on here will agree on :D

We all know how it works, yet parties still promise the world during a campaign. I wonder, do the parties actually believe all the stuff they say or is it that they still think we're gullible fools? :shrug:

I've always been an admirer of the Raving Monster lot, some of their stuff is priceless :D

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

I can't help noticing that now that parliament has been hurriedly reconvened in this time of "national crisis" it is in the most part empty ie void of mp's .

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Not everyone can get a flight arranged at short notice, no matter the price, by the Government... ;)

Looks to have reasonable attendance today...

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...8&d=1569418833

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Also some MP's have to arrange things like childcare and prior commitments.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

That would be tricky for BJ - he would have to know how many there were and where they were... ;)

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Turn on the live feed it's practically empty.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

They probably know its going to be a longer session so have popped off to the bars and restaurants to replenish themselves before the main event.;)

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

In a time of "national crisis":shrug: after all that drivel at the supreme court they just end up in the bar .

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

We have had a crisis for the last three years plus unless you have not noticed.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Loving the 2016 irony here ...

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Well played by Boris here. Tell them to put up or shut up.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

It's the best session ever,he's really on the ball.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Indeed, in very much the same manner as Ali Dia was. :D

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Boris did rather well considering. Corbyn, however, really didn’t sound like his heart was in it and decided to prattle on about Thomas Cook when the prime minster’s recent shoeing at the pleasure of the Supreme Court was surely the biggest, widest open goal any leader of the opposition will ever have. He should have gone at it relentlessly for 15 minutes (pretty much as Boris did in his opening speech) but, bizarrely, he didn’t.

I tend to believe Boris’ suggestion that Corbyn personally does want to lance the boil and have an election, but is being held hostage by his own shadow cabinet. I loved it when Boris made a snide reference to “the shadow leader of the opposition”. :D

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Boris is trying to goad a reaction. If politicians want to remain or a second referendum then they should seize the opportunity to do so. Otherwise this has all gone on long enough, and I say that as someone who has thoroughly enjoyed the spectacle of a constitutional crisis.

At some point a 2nd referendum or GE is required to end up remaining, or probably both. Get on with it, shove Corbyn out the way or hold your nose and back him for a few months.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

I agree, he’s raising the stakes because it’s either that or fold. He can’t walk away now. He has no choice but to attack the court, Corbyn and anything else he sees in front of him. His gamble is that in a people v establishment election, the people will see him as on their side. The longer Labour allows itself the be painted as scared of an election, the more likely Boris’ gamble is to pay off.

But you’re right, one way or another this has now got to end, and soon.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

The only way an election will happen is once an extension to the Brexit exit date is agreed. Until then, nothing will happen but Boris Johnson is far, far better at playing this game than Jeremy Corbyn.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

I agree and while I wouldn't vote Labour anyway, Corbyn doesn't seem to be doing much unless he has something big planned election time and is playing it cool.

I suppose all are waiting to see what the EU are going to do as well

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

The language does need to calm down. It's absurd. Genuine hate is entering the mainstream of our politics really, really quickly.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

We could well be back here again in a few months especially since odds are it's a hung Parliament again.

Also This atmosphere is here to say either post Brexit or post Election.

I think those who believe that it'll all calm down and we'll all just pull together and get on with it after Brexit are as misguided as the people who think a Remain victory after a referendum will make it go away.

As for the Government after the election then Boris Johnson won't govern as the liberal 'one-nation' conservative we thought he might be pre-Brexit because he can't row back from this tone or approach easily. His old allies on that side of the party are against him or kicked out of the party. His allies now do not see the world that way. If Corbyn becomes PM, especially if it's in alliance with the SNP, then there will be half of this country who'll think it faces an existential threat. Scotland and Northern Ireland won't go away as issues either.

May's deal should have passed first time. Massive mistake IMO.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Marxism doesn’t exist in the UK. Democratic socialism does.

---------- Post added at 22:24 ---------- Previous post was at 22:21 ----------

In that case we should do what other countries do. Election after election after election until someone can deliver one way or the other and govern.

If the UK needs to end it needs to end. No great loss. England can be England and discover it’s own identity.

I do agree though that not passing May’s deal could well be regretted by ardent remainers. I said at the time it probably gave everyone enough (except the DUP/ERG) to move on.

For entertainment only here’s Pierre and I agreeing on it.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...&postcount=205 :)

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

I think Boris has to take his non-inclusive approach in order to keep the Brexit Party at bay. As things stand, it looks unlikely that we will exit the EU on 31st October which will severely weaken Boris Johnson who staked his reputation on achieving this.

---------- Post added at 22:45 ---------- Previous post was at 22:40 ----------

EU will just react to proposals from the UK. If the UK requests an extension, I'm sure that request will be granted. If the UK devises a solution that will deliver the benefits that a backstop would, I'm sure that could result in a deal.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

But who, in your words, can "shove Corbyn out the way"? His opposition within his party are weak with no guts and JC's inner circle just keep telling him he is wonderful.

The Lib Dems have also made a big mistake in putting the Revoke stake in the ground "when we are in Government", really? Get real. They should be cementing a centre ground coalition to prevent Farage and his cohorts from teaming up with Johnson and taking us off into a necon paradise.

It is as if *all* politicians, from all sides, have lost all sense of perspective.

---------- Post added at 22:53 ---------- Previous post was at 22:50 ----------

Yeah, his dismissal of MPs' death threats as humbug ... really on the ball. The man is a cretin ..

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

QED

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Well, it takes two sides to tango. The anger seems to be on the remainer side due to the proroguing of Parliament. If they calm down, I am sure it will be reciprocated.

The anger on the streets will not go away until this matter is resolved, and if the electorate do not get what they voted for, that is to leave, everything will be escalated. Remainers cannot just shout insults and ignore what the majority want. They need to vote and help us achieve a deal which enables us to forge our own trade deals with the rest of the world.

If they don't do this, we will have the scenario they say they don't want ie, a 'no deal'.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

:clap::clap::clap:

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

For proroguing Parliament read "breaking the law".

If there's one thing I'm certain of its that Boris won't calm down. His electoral future depends on stoking the fire of nationalism.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

The law didn't exist at the time of proroguing, it was invented on Tuesday.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Of course it did. Government was playing fast and loose with its interpretation of convention. Which is/was obvious to everyone but the most "Brexit at all costs" types.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Spot on with all of the above Ian. :clap:

As for Johnsons' M.O. it seems to be to desensitise everyone so much with his behaviour that nothing he does or says has any consequences on himself. A tactic used extensively on the other side of the pond.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Interpretation of convention is not evidence of the existance of legal statute.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

They didn't invent law as claimed. Only Parliament can do that.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

No law was invented on Tuesday - the Supreme Court adjudicated that BJ's actions were unlawful (that his reasons for prorogation for five weeks were not supported by the weight of evidence), and therefore were null and void.

Again, to avoid confusion - no new law was invented on Tuesday; people saying this have a lack of understanding of what actually happened.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

It's clear they invented law to frustrate brexit,11 out of 11 judges reach the same conclusion , that just stinks of an establishment stitch up.

It seems that any one on the remain side can invent laws to keep us shackled to the corrupt EU.

There's even talk of rehashing the surrender bill now.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

How so? When good old Boris clearly stated the prorogation of parliament had nothing to do with Brexit. The Supreme Courts ruling was in direct response to the prorogation, nothing else. Lady Hale made that eminently clear.

Unless of course Boris was telling fibs?

Here's the government statement via 3rd party (BBC)

The government defended its action, saying it had nothing to do with Brexit. It argued proroguing Parliament was a "proceeding in Parliament" and would allow the PM to outline plans for domestic policies, like NHS funding.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Correct Hugh. What happend Tuesday was a legal precedent was set.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

I can explain it to you, I can’t understand it for you...

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

The back room lawyers opinion is noted, even if it was not asked for nor needed.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Not my "opinion", it’s a fact (even if you do mix them up sometimes).

If a new law was "invented" on Tuesday, could you please show the legislation that "invented’ this law, as laws can only be created or changed by an Act of Parliament or Secondary legislation through statutory instruments (which can only be raised by the Government).

The Judiciary can’t "invent" laws.

You may find this helpful - https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/laws/

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Once again i thank you for your opinion, i will of course take it onboard and decide at a later date if it has any merit .

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Well, after all the kicking and screaming these pathetic Remainiac MPs have done about Parliament being shut down, the House of Commons has adjourned at 17:04, just over half n hour ago. So much for the Brexit scrutiny they were screeching for.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Well nothing to scrutinise, so may as well jog off home . . only slightly different to last week really, but they can legally leave early ;)

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Losing a few hours here and there isn't the same as losing five weeks.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

It was all bull they lied to the courts for political reasons.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Exactly.

---------- Post added at 18:32 ---------- Previous post was at 18:29 ----------

He needs to win over potential Brexit Party voters as he's deserted One Nation Conservatism. His best way to do this would be to leave on 31 October but he can't do that which is awkward. So his best bet is to stir things up and try and re-invent himself as an anti-Establishment hero.

---------- Post added at 18:39 ---------- Previous post was at 18:32 ----------

Exactly. If they get something to scrutinise then doubtless they'll make up the hours. Just need BoJo to start negotiating in Brussels and not electioneering in the UK.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Once again, you are confusing facts (which I have posted) with opinion (which I haven't).

I would recommend you don't try this approach with gravity by jumping out of a 4th floor window, as taking gravity as an opinion and deciiding later if it has any merit may result in sub-optimal results... ;)

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Talking of sub optimal results, I gather things aren't going too well across the channel :)

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

I heard a theory to explain his double speak on the matter that he could have been tipped the wink by one of the EU27 that they were planning to veto the extension if asked for.
Alternatively I suppose he could just go to Brussels and make such a nuisance of himself Farage style that they finally decide to get rid. He'd do quite a good job at that.
On the other hand it could merely be the usual Bullingdon bluff and bluster.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Once again i thank you for your opinion, i will of course take it onboard and decide at a later date if it has any merit .


Ps sorted your spelling error.

---------- Post added at 19:13 ---------- Previous post was at 19:02 ----------

It's possible that the surrender bill if full of loopholes, it was done in a hurry.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Well, if you watched the House of Commons last night, you would see that the opposition parties could do with a bit of calming down, too! Their self righteous indignation is sickening - they think they are the only ones who have the right to be annoyed. What they seem not to understand is that the public is not on their side.

Incidentally, you may regard it as a technicality, but no law was broken. The judges stated that what Boris did was unlawful, not illegal. Therefore, no criminal offence was committed.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Some of the public are on the Government's side, some on the Opposition's.
We need a Prime Minister who can bring the country together not divide it. Our country's enemies must be licking their lips at the divisions the country is in and our Prime Minister's inability to heal them.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Wrong again. Constitutional law was broken, not criminal. So yes, he did break the law. Even the brexiteers flagship red top admits to this.

Since you want to take this to a technical level :)

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

None of the opposition party leaders [or their politics] fit the bill.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Nor does Boris.....

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

I watched. It's the job of the opposition to be divisive and reactionary. It's the job of Government to lead, despite the opposition.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

I never said he did.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Lots of fireworks and start again then ?

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Thank you.

PS - sorted your lower case singular first-person pronouns, removed the space before a full stop, capitalised the PS, and sorted your spelling error. ;)

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Get a room you two (Hugh & Papa), sick of you arguing all the time like it is some pissing contest.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Something that is illegal is against the law, whereas an unlawful act merely contravenes the rules that apply in a particular context.

The Oxford dictionary is not wrong, you are. Look it up if you still doubt me.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

But the Law Society in their glossary define unlawful as "illegal or contrary to social convention" Not that it matters as however you try and spin it the actions of the Prime Minister (Government??) were found lacking by the highest court in the land.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

No-deal Brexit still threatening vital medicine supplies despite contingency planning

https://news.sky.com/story/no-deal-b...nning-11820430

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

No surprise there Dave as l have heard from my surgery that several drugs could be in short supply and that they might have to replace them with other drugs if there is a no deal.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

After howls of outrage to URGENTLY recall Parliament they've all gone home.

OUTRAGE against Britain's MPs was ratcheted up even further today as, after three multi-million pound court cases and endless howls of Remainer outrage to reconvene Parliament as a matter of urgency, it emerged that Parliament was not sitting.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...latest-Juncker

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

That’s normal. They don’t routinely sit on a Friday.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

I know that,but given all the bull around not sitting they are taking the pee.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Not really. Proroguing Parliament prevents them from sitting full stop during that time.

Opting to not sit on a Friday is a completely separate matter.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

Yes a matter of hypocrisy.

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

I guess the Express will want them to sit on Saturday and Sunday as well!

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

You're wrong, I don't need to look it up

/Response

Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion
 

We are in a state of "national crisis" is it too much to ask?

---------- Post added at 13:07 ---------- Previous post was at 13:04 ----------

arrogant
adjective



unpleasantly proud and behaving as if you are more important than, or know more than, other people:

There's a lot of it about;)