Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

The Scottish Government has been going hell for leather deploying EV chargers, even in quite remote spots (arguably where they're most needed, as lots of us up here live in places where your big town 'local errand' 10 mile round trip can easily stretch to 30 miles or more).

I'm encouraged by the hydrogen component in this strategy, because we're going to need fuel cells for bigger cars, repmobiles and HGVs no matter what Elon Musk says. Using excess wind generation to produce hydrogen makes sense. If they can balance supply and demand it might even be possible to do it by simple electrolysis of water, which isn't the most efficient method but is certainly the most straightforward and the cleanest. Ideally we need a hydrogen strategy that produces modest amounts in lots of places close to where the demand is, so as to reduce tanker movements as much as possible.

Re: [Updated] Petrol & diesel vehicles ban now 2030
 

I look forward to the U-Turn in 2027, when they realise it's not possible.

Or when new car sales hit their lowest ever levels.

Jump to 2045 when the streets of the UK look like a scene from Mad Max with people going to extreme lengths to keep their cars on the road.

I'll have to buy shares in a scrap spare parts business.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

I've always wanted to wear epaulettes made of old tyres.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Will we be out of lock down by 2030?

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

We'll most likely be dealing with Covid-29 at that point.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Crikey . . I've just realised:

I'll be 76 in 2030, I'll have probably had one of those small electric things for years

*beep beep* bloody pedestrians :D

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

So they are going to completely rebuild the National Grid and electricity distribution, provide charging points for everyone, and triple our electricity generation in 9 years ?

I think not.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Mr Sinclair and his C5 were ahead of their time. Although maybe he should have stuck to computers.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...droidApp_Other
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/cff0a...rmat&fit=crop&

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

New R&D in petrol cars is now going to end. In time, as demand for petrol reduces, fewer petrol stations will remain open, and those that do will increase their prices because of the increase in costs with reduced sales.
The energy suppliers can cope with the varying supply of wind power because there is surplus supply from elsewhere, so talk of "the current system can cope" is misleading.

Add in the effect of moving away from household gas central heating and you have further demands on the electricity system.
Going to be fun when there is a power cut in an area.
Cycling? How does that work in bad weather? News reports on cycling only seem to occur in fine weather. Try doing it in heavy wind, rain, snow, or even sunshine.
Too many gimmick based policies.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Don't worry old chap Boris knows what he is doing, honest,. have faith....
Princess Nut Nuts is a good influence and our prime policy maker.
Meat eating will also be outlawed by 2033.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

All this means is car manufacturers will be heavily marketing all the countries that don’t ban the internal combustion engine.

Much in the same way the Tobacco industry continues to thrive and marketed around most of the world were there aren’t any restrictions

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Global warming is a reality and needs to be addressed, doing so is not a gimmick or fad it's a necessary human and economic reality.
I don't think that the timescales under consideration seem unreasonable and with global efforts focused on battery development, peaks and troughs in power generation can be ironed out.
Well done to BoJo.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

You been drinking again?

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

That's not an argument against these initiatives, though.

Furthermore, car manufacturers are wedded to profits, not a means of propulsion. If electric cars become cheaper globally through initiatives like these, then they will displace internal combustion engines in some countries where such initiatives are not taking place.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Yeah, the car industry isn't especially wedded to the future of the oil companies. A national transition to a new engine is an opportunity for them to sell more cars. These companies have been preparing for this for a while with a lot - if not most - already selling electric versions of some of their most popular models.

There is still another 10 years to go as well which is plenty of time for them to shift their focus.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

How will they become magically cheaper?
Rare earth elements are rare.

Battery raw materials could face a supply crunch by the mid-2020s. Link
And that's just to supply the UK.:shocked:

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

There’s clearly a role for hydrogen fuel cells in cars. Hydrogen production is part of the strategy announced today.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

So what's your solution to climate change and our ever dwindling fossil fuel supply? Get a bike?

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

And where will this hydrogen come from?
They still rely on rare earth metals for the electric motors.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

We have oceans of hydrogen.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Of course, producing Hydrogen from those 'oceans' requires electricity in the first place.

Also, despite what some believe, burning hydrogen does produce emissions.

When burned in normal air, you get small amounts of Nitrogen Oxides, and of course, lots of water vapour.

What will be the effect of tons and tons of water vapour being added to the atmosphere I wonder (its a potent 'greenhouse gas').

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

More rain to provide water to create hydrogen from?

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

.. and more floods ...

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

It was reported that there were enough resources to replace the current global internal combustion engine fleet just about.

So given that replacing that fleet would take decades it’s not really an issue initially.

But roll on many decades.

Lithium-ion batteries recycling rate from used batteries to new is between 70-80%. That means diminishing returns of around 25%.

So, much like “fossil”* fuels, lithium is a finite resource and will run out eventually, we’ll be dead by then, but my Grandchildren will be buzzing around in their classic 2019 Mustang that i will have left them.

* if you believe oil to be a fossil fuel, for which there is no evidence.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

If you produce hydrogen by electrolysis of water, first of all you can do it with excess electricity production from the grid, given the massive increase in offshore wind that’s being proposed. If you split water into H and O2 then all your fuel cell does is recombine it. There is no net increase in water in the environment because you’re just putting back what you took out. Any chemical impurities can be filtered or chemically altered in the vehicle exhaust system just as is the case now.

Besides all this, there’s no need to worry so much about lithium because we’re not very far away from a practical lithium-sulphur battery that has the potential to double EV range - or half the size of the battery required.

I think we’re going to see a future of mixed approaches to providing electric power to vehicles. There’s room in it for hydrogen and batteries.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

And where does the bulk of Sulphur come from? Oil refineries. Eg Saudi Arabia produces 6.6m tonnes/year.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Our requirement for petrochemical products isn’t going away any time soon, and nothing announced here today has suggested otherwise. What’s your point?

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

1) The oil refineries would still have to be producing petrochemicals.
2) The oil is going to run out.
Still not addressing the shortages of Lithium, Boron, Neodymium etc.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

1. Not a major problem, if
2. We’re not burning most of it in internal combustion engines. In any case
2b. The oil isn’t going to run out - environmentalists told us 40 years ago that it would all be gone by now. Guess what ... known reserves are still at least as healthy now as they were then. Technology has improved, we’ve found oil in more places and we can extract it from wells previously unreachable.

As I said earlier, a chemically stable lithium sulphur battery has the potential to have twice the capacity of a lithium ion battery of the same physical size. So (for example) a Tesla model S could either double its range to around 600 miles, or reduce its battery size (and therefore lithium requirement) by 50%. That’s a very significant saving.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Is it?

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

I think one issue is that we haven't moved where we use things in the right place. We should have moved more to reusable/nuclear to generate electricity and leaving more oil for chemicals and small units where replacement is harder.
At the same time we do need the work on replacing the internal combustion engine but given that each change of energy from one form to another results in a loss of energy is generate -> step up -> transmit -> step down -> step down -> charge battery more efficient than dig up -> crack -> carry -> refuel.
At the moment it takes too long to charge electric for too few miles and hydrogen distribution is going to take time to build up, especially in rural and smaller towns.

Was thinking about petrol stations and run through. Now actual is out to make maths easy.
20 pump station
10 refuels each per hour
200 refuels an hour

To get the same through put for electric, how many points would you need? What do people do for that extra time waiting? What about those waiting for a point?

Some new houses near me have charging points for cars built into house but already mentioned about those in towns without dedicated parking space?

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

So what are we going to do with the oil left over? They're not going to process the oil just to extract sulphur. Oil from certain areas isn't suitable for making plastics, eg Saudi Arabia with too much sand in it.
Increased capacity of a battery will be used for just that, to increase distance, not to reduce it in size. Even if they did, there still isn't enough Lithium available. Still no mention of all the other metals and materials needed, that are in short supply from limited locations.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Oil is not the only source of sulphur, after all it's the 5th most common element of earth. It is only because of being a byproduct of oil production that oil is the highest source.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

So where are you going to source it from instead? Have you seen how they collect from around volcanos? Health and safety has little to do with it.
Link

Still no mention of the shortfall in Lithium, Neodymium, Boron, etc.
Doesn't matter one little bit how easy to make and efficient the batteries are, you still need efficient electric motors.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Now that's a hard one... er, perhaps re-open the mines that closed due to the abundance of sulphur produced by the oil industry?

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

You're still not addressing the shortages of Lithium, Neodymium, Boron, etc, etc, etc.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

This would be because you haven’t made a case to address.

Hint: one-line rhetorical questions are not a case.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

:clap:

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Ah well, the days are numbered for the petrol-driven car, no more will we hear that powerful roar of a 5 litre, 600 Bhp beast, such a shame IMO.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Tut tut, you can't squirm out of it that easily. :nono:

There is a need for loads more Lithium, Neodymium, Cobalt.
Rare earth elements are not as rare as the name implies, but there are very few locations that mine them, so we are somewhat at the mercy of those countries (for example, 70% of the worlds Cobalt comes from the Democratic Republic of Congo).

:rolleyes:

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Post #516
Link

And that's just for the UK demand. 100% of world output of Neodymium, 75% of the world's output of Lithium and half of the world's copper output. How is that just rhetorical?:confused:

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Maybe there's loads of that sort of stuff on the moon . . . electric shuttle launches will be a bugger though :D

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

The Carbon Battle Bus came to a standstill after it couldn't charge at five stations across Cornwall on Sunday

net zero charging then :rofl:


https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...nwall-charging

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Yeah, they'll have have wave and wind powered boats next. Its political correctness gone mad, probably.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

we already have wind powered boats that go nowhere most of the time , that's why people buy diesel powered boats;)

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Nissan are currently building electric cars here. Honda is closing down. Mitsubishi is leaving the UK market.
The intentions of Toyota towards building electric cars here and indeed in Europe are not known. All its electric vehicles are currently exported from Japan.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Only Toyota amongst the Japanese manufacturers. Vauxhall needs wooing too amongst other foreign-owned manufacturers.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

My new electric car arrives next month.

Still keep the V6 diesel for lugging kit and dogs around however

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Electric cars are very expensive at the moment, they'll need to reduce prices if they expect people to buy them in large numbers.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

I think all this "charging at home or in car parks" system is looking the wrong way.

Why not CHANGE your flat battery for a charged one at some local location?

I'm sure it could be done. In-and-out in minutes instead of hours. No need to have charging leads all over the place. No need to upgrade all the local power lines.

The South Korean government is changing all telephone booths into battery-exchange units for their growing number of electric bikes.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Maybe because the battery is an large integral part of the car, rather than a small plug in part.

Tesla Model S chassis

http://large.stanford.edu/courses/20...ages/f2big.png

http://large.stanford.edu/courses/20...ages/f2big.png

New GM Chassis

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2021/06/1.jpg

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

In Taiwan you can subscribe and just swap out your battery for your electric scooter as you go.

https://electrek.co/2020/01/01/gogor...tional-israel/

It works for bikes, and I’m sure will catch on globally, but it doesn’t works for cars, as Hugh points out.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Many many years ago, in a time almost forgotten, and just after school started spoiling our fun, my brother and I had something similar our father made us. Admittedly it consisted of a few planks of wood, 4 old pram wheels, and a length of rope for steering . . . but it was eco friendly :D

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Chinese electric car company Nio are working on just this kind of thing with Nio Power Swap - https://www.nio.com/nio-power

Clever stuff but would need standardisation or there would need to be a lot of battery stations for all the different manufacturers.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

And what if you arrived at your battery station to find no available charged "spares".

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

You keep a gallon can of electricity in the boot for such emergencies.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Gosh no, that would fall foul of innumerable Health & Safety considerations.
In the event of a substantial impact the container could be compromised, which is likely to unleash a flow of pure electrical energy into the car. If this electrical surge gained entry to the cooling system it would pass through the water, instantly producing Oxygen & Hydrogen . . a very volatile mixture with disastrous consequences if a person wearing a silk shirt tried to open the door :shocked:

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Probably the same as if I arrived at a charging point and it was occupied or unserviceable.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Pack in the childishness and stick to the topic.



Edit: Further to this, the posts have been removed by Admin.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Tesla already shows which charging points are/are not available for usage.

I'm sure the same thing could be applied to battery units

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Two or three threads to bump, chose this one.

Electric car charge points to overtake fuel pumps

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60863974

I walked past our local Tesco a couple of weeks ago and noticed 6 charge points - all occupied. The car park probably held 200 cars at the time.

I can't help feeling we're heading for a bit of a cock-up with electric vehicles, especially as the electricity needs to be generated by something, and those somethings are soon to be banned or sold at very high prices . . . could be paying £1 a mile by 2030 ;)

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

We've had this open last year in Manchester, which I'd need if I switched to electric as I don't have a driveway. It replaced a ICE fuel station that had already closed and was being used as a hand car wash.

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/lat...arging-station

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

The Government's is looking at permitting onshore wind farms again which would help with more and cheaper electricity generation, but there is a split in the Cabinet.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60837170

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Still nothing like enough. A typical petrol station has 8 to 16 pumps and you can fill up in 5 minutes. And then you can drive twice as far until you need to fill again.

Is a national network of overhead power is the solution? Think trams or dodgem cars.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Back to horse drawn carriages I reckon.

Would also help fertilize the gardens everyone will need for food when electric delivery lorries to the supermarkets take 4 hours to charge for a 50 mile trip :D

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

It could be for bigger vehicles

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...-power-lorries

But that's only feasible because lorry cabs and trailers have rules around their height so you know roughly where to put the wires and how big the pantograph needs to be.

It's not as possible for private vehicles as they're all different - and the wires for lorries and buses would be too high to safely use on a smaller car, and ones for cars would be too low for other vehicles to use or pass under.

However wireless pads in the ground could be another source of charging to help improve convenience of charging access

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electr...does-it-work-/

https://www.sustainable-bus.com/infr...ynamics-buses/

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

The difference is that you can’t top up your petrol tank at home. Notwithstanding issues around high density urban housing areas where home charging is presently difficult, the future of motoring is one in which people generally go out in the morning with a full charge. It may take up to 40 minutes to charge from empty but most people aren’t going to arrive at the charger empty.

My current mileage amounts to around 200 a week which is well within the range of a decent sized electric family car. Even if I couldn’t charge at home, within the course of a normal week my car would very easily sit idly somewhere it could take advantage of a rapid charger without inconveniencing my schedule at all.

All of this requires drivers to think differently about how they plan fuel stops for their cars but that different approach does not need to be onerous.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Can you imagine the huge savings on energy and environmental damage due to designing, planning, building and repairing all that infrastructure . . .



no, neither can I

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

I can. There are going to be short term increases but the long term decreases are worth it.

And the more we do it the cheaper it should become and the easier to do - you only have to look at the improving cost vs efficiency of wind turbines to see that.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

The costs of cleaning up former petrol station is not cheap.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Gotta love those 'long term' forecasts . . .

North Sea Gas . . . definitely cheaper now
Diesel engines . . that went well
HS2 rail link . . cut short before it's going anywhere

;)

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

The craze to get to Net Zero is just going to price people out of driving cars and heating their homes.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

It will once the treasury brings in road pricing to replace the £40bn odd it currently takes in motoring taxes.

Electric cars will become as expensive to run as petrol and diesel are today.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

In my opinion, the change to electric cars is only going to work with some sort of wireless charging. Outside your home, supermarket car parks, well any carpark to be honest so it sits there charging while you're away from the car.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

The few watts it takes to charge a mobile is easy wireless. Shifting 50 to 100KW wirelessly to charge a vehicle is much more challenging and potentially dangerous.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

If everyone could charge at home (which of course they cannot).
Just imagine what would happen to the National Grid if 16 million cars were plugged in every night (thats just half the UKs total cars). :erm:

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

True, but this is why the ban comes in 8 years from now, and at that point is still only a ban on new sales. The policy is designed to facilitate a steady shift, not the sudden plugging of 16 million cars into the national grid tomorrow.

What will be telling will be how many more chargers there are in another 5 years, how well the on-street overnight charging issue has been addressed, and how the national grid's capacity has been increased.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

That is true and that is why battery and wireless technology needs to improve.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Does anyone know how much it would cost you for electricity if you charged your car from home?

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

If you're on a typical tariff of 20p a unit (KWh) then a 50KW battery would cost £10 to fill up.

That's likely to go up 50% in April.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

How much will it cost in 2030 once they have you by the goolies

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Wasn't aware there is much of a choice in how you power an ICE car today.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

One wonders if land yachts will be made road legal :D

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Unlike the generous kind warm-hearted petrol companies, who almost give it away…

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

They almost were giving it away during the 'highs' of Covid ;)

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

it costs bugger all with no tax on it

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

It costs less, certainly not 'bugger all'.

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Good luck on buying it without that…

(It’s about 50% of the price).

---------- Post added at 22:02 ---------- Previous post was at 22:01 ----------

That statement is not congruent with actuality… ;)

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Maybe not as such, but by April 2020 crude oil was trading for negative values . . . so it's near enough (without VAT) lol ;)

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Don’t remember that flowing through the supply chain to the petrol stations* giving it away… :)

*we were discussing petrol, not oil..

Re: [Updated] New petrol & diesel car sales banned from 2030
 

Gosh you're right, silly me expecting the large Multinationals to pass savings on to the end user :D