Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Making the rich richer.
that's a positive to the rich I suppose.

Dave got rid of himself. that's another.

They're destroying peoples will to live.

that's a negative though.

---------- Post added at 23:33 ---------- Previous post was at 23:30 ----------

I agree Mick.
they. I mean we. need to debate without having a go at each other.
we have to not show the Conservatives that we will fight each other just because they want us to to. for whatever reason they want us to do it for.

---------- Post added at 23:36 ---------- Previous post was at 23:33 ----------

Well said. spot on.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

[QUOTE=Mr K;35918526]Yawn, yet again. Do you ever get 'déjà vu' ? I experience it regularly on here.

---------- Post added at 22:23 ---------- Previous post was at 22:22 ----------



Easy Mr K, it's a tough job for a caped crusader exposing all those leftie lying hypocrites and simultaneously having to find time to ignore peoples pertinent arguments .

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Those knives are sharpening again this morning for Theresa as with friends like that who needs enemies...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-tories-knives

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

It's feeling a bit unfair the amount of piling on people are doing to Theresa May. Every day seems to bring new revelations someone is leaking to damage her ahead of her conference speech.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Like Gaius Julius Caesar they are plotting around her just waiting for their moment to stick their knives in her back and end it all so that they can elect a new leader for the Conservative party.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The policies they seem to have revealed today are ridiculous. 'Freezing' student loans at £9000 is not going to appease those who think it's too high, instead of a radical house building program they're going to extend help to buy which will only make houses more expensive.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Staggering IMO as when are they going to realise that there is a chronic shortage of housing in the UK not seen since the Second World War.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I'm wondering where they get their ideas from these days.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I think this does show how out of touch the Tories are at the moment. Freezing student loans is a bit of a joke when they should never have been at the level they are now.

Also, what they don't discuss is the interest rate at which they are charging students:

https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...flation-brexit

They have basically lost the young vote as I see it.

They encourage the young to go to University, make them pay a price totally unrelated to delivery cost that is controlled by what is, in effect, a cartel. Then when they graduate, they then face the realistic prospect of a minimum wage job together with a massive personal debt going up at an unreasonable interest rate.

Oh, did I forget the bit where they cannot afford to get on the housing ladder like we were able to do ..

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I agree with nearly all of your post, except the bit about funding.

Whilst 9k is more than delivery cost of some Arts degrees, it does not go anyway near covering the cost of the STE part of the STEM courses, and does not take into consideration the ongoing costs of maintaining and enhancing University infrastructure (buildings, faculty resources, IT, etc.).

In the past (before fees came in) these costs were mostly covered by one-off tranches from Central Government - all these now needs to be met by student fees (or bonds raised against the future income from Student Fees). Also, Universities pays VAT on most of the goods and services they receive, but can only recover a small percentage of VAT, via partial exemption recovery rules, which puts a 20% loading on most purchases.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I think this is the root of the issue here. If you are not able to accept that your political view is never wrong and that the opposing view is never right then why would you engage? By definition, any information presented that may challenge or contradict your world view will not be accepted.

I personally think that some of the Conservative policies are good. I also think the same about Labour, the Lib Dems and the Greens.

I do not agree with most of the Conservative policies and certainly do not agree with their Free Market approach to nation building but what I try not to do is seek out dirt to attempt to paint the Tories as "nasty", etc. What would be the point? You would only be preaching to the converted and for the rest of your audience, well, you are just winding them up at worst or making them laugh at best.

There was a recent example of Young Tory activists caught discussing 'gassing chavs' and 'shooting peasants'. This could have been posted to show how nasty the Tories are but what's the point?

Everyone will, now and again, post what they would, in hindsight, view as the wrong way to approach an argument. I am certainly guilty of this but when this is your standard debating technique it leaves a lot to be desired.

If you want to read this kind of negative rubbish, go to the Daily Mail, Socialist Worker or Express where you will be in your heaven.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Yawn, yet again. Do you ever get 'déjà vu' ? I experience it regularly on here.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Why not be constructive? Mr K said:

So, over to you ... this is your chance!

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

A closed insular mind to the world will never accept any differing view of their view that is for sure as a open mind will learn but sadly a closed mind will not.

---------- Post added at 10:30 ---------- Previous post was at 10:29 ----------

Yes the Conservatives do have some decent policies as do the other parties but the Conservatives are so deeply obsessed with Brexit that many of the important issues facing this country and what people want sorted out are being ignored sadly.

---------- Post added at 10:31 ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 ----------

Exactly as who would want to read that rubbish.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I'd like to know the true cost of tuition as opposed to the rest. Osem Jnr hardly ever saw his lecturers and did 90% of the work on his own or in a classroom setting with minimal input from his university. His third year was spent working in a school 4 days per week with a few hours set aside on Friday for admin/uni stuff related to the course. He paid £9k for that particular privilege most of which wasn't going towards tuition IMHO. At least he has a job, however.

The answer to this problem is clearly not straightforward but I think many students are getting royally ripped off in what has very quickly become a business and they're getting really very poor value for money in many cases. These new concessions are going to make precious little difference to the reality students face but we all know that what Labour promised prior to the election was just so much pie in the sky. The whole thing is a complete mess and the cost of administering it all is going to mushroom out of control. At some point there has to be a complete rethink but where will that leave the countless thousands who're already up to their necks in debt? :shrug:

---------- Post added at 11:01 ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 ----------

Nah, it's a poisoned chalice, only an idiot would want the job right now.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Aren't the Conservatives a delightful bunch when it comes to things like this?

Of course Labour aren't that much better; while I think his policies are insanity Jeremy Corbyn had much the same treatment.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

So May refuses say if Boris is 'unsackable' and it's a big story...

https://order-order.com/2017/10/01/m...is-unsackable/

Well what on Earth did they expect her to say. :rofl:

This is just the usual media probing and mischief making. The same questions yielding the same predictable 'non-answers'. I guess it pays the bills and fills pages/airtime...

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Paul Staines, a libertarian wanting the extreme deregulation, tax cuts and shredding of the welfare state and NHS that it seems half the cabinet are up for, writing things to fit his political agenda and cause grief for those he opposes for fear they won't follow his vision. Who would've thought.

Strange how all the things he writes about Labour and the Liberal Democrats weren't subjected to the same scrutiny.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

In more news a media hack asks the PM if she's going to resign and she says no... :rofl:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Another theory on Boris Johnson's behaviour comes courtesy of The Sunday Times. It says Johnson may be trying to get sacked as he is struggling to fund all his family obligations on a cabinet minister’s salary of £140k.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b...year-b0qmmfwrj

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

l would take that with a pinch of salt Andrew.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

He’s trying to get fired to try and unseat May imo.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

l personally cannot see her lasting more then another year at most.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I'd seen that article, Andrew. There are some good policies in there and some horrid ones.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Why? He'd want the job right now would he? :shrug:

If I were Boris, or anyone else with leadership ambitions, I'd let her get on with it for a while.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Apparently, Kipling has written a fitting poem for Boris:

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...10/1.jpg:large

---------- Post added at 18:37 ---------- Previous post was at 18:14 ----------

The problem we have is the actual cost of delivery is not available on a per subject basis. I am sure that you are correct regarding the more labour & infrastructure intensive courses costing more than the 9250 but of course these STEM subjects do lead to prospects of significantly higher incomes post-graduation.

It is the lack of visibility of costing that is the biggest failing of the current system, in conjunction with the cartel price fixing. An English degree from Hudderfield costs the student the same as a Physics degree from Oxford. The perceived quality of said degree together with the likely employment options are a long way apart.

Also, you mention enhancing University infrastructure: there is a danger of some Universities spending more to be seen are more attractive, especially for the more profitable foreign students when arguably, more modest spending would be sufficient.

I feel the current system is very broken especially compared to other European countries

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I really wish we could have Ruth Davidson as PM. She is trending on Twitter at the moment.

What she said about Corbyn earlier.... "He hasn't even won a raffle".

Also... "Politics is not for faint hearts. It's not about what's in fashion or who is the absolute boy,"

"Just as the SNP came crashing down to earth, Just as they lost 40% of their seats in June, Just as half a million Scots chose to take their vote away, so too can the Corbyn bubble burst, but only if we work hard to make it so. Because, you know what? People tire of being offered free unicorns. Of easy promises that don't add up."

http://news.sky.com/story/ruth-david...er-10-11063335

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Yes people certainly tire of easy promises that is for sure but they also tire of promises made and not kept as well.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

She came across very well in the Brexit debates and I think that was when the whole country noticed her. She remains in great form and is knocking the more extreme Brexiter daydreamers and Corbynites who both share a zeal for promising to turn water into wine. I think she would make a great Prime Minister.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7975191.html

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

:rofl:

Despite claiming that he's the PM in waiting after being defeated at the election just a few months ago.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Well if she's trending well on Twitter that's the main thing. Tweeting works well for the Donald and it's the way to run a country apparently.

She could never lead the Tory party (and very wisely don't think she wants to). Apart from not being an MP, when the blue rinse old dears and swivel eyed loons find out she's engaged to a woman they'll spontaneously combust.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Nah. Two things about the Tory party: They're ruthless about winning and don't care much for their members. If they wanted Ruth Davidson as leader and she wanted it they would give her a safe seat and present a fait accompli to their members.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Yesterday Liam Fox informed activists at the Conservative Party Conference that the economy has 'boomed' since the referendum.

What planet is this man on? Nothing gets fixed if you deny/ignore/blatantly lie about what's wrong. Is this what cabinet members are forming policies based on? Blatant lies told to keep the relatively few members and activists they have left happy?

Economic growth in the UK started a downward trend just before the referendum, a factor in that being the mere presence of said referendum. After the referendum that drop accelerated and the UK has in 2 years gone from being the fastest growing economy in the G7 to the slowest.

Maybe Dr Fox has a different definition of the word 'boom' from the rest of us?

This put here as if it's indicative of the 'alternative facts' being fed to people at the Conference some other policy decisions and opinions start making more sense.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Wisdom from Graham Brady, MP for Altrincham.

There's a positive vision. I'm not convinced teachers going through a years-long real-terms pay cut, working longer hours, having their budgets cut and support taken away are going to really be open to seeing the benefits of markets, let alone enthusing about them to their pupils.

I note attacking the press being a common theme. Seems to be the in-thing from both right and left at the moment.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

He's a prat, the biggest turn of the public has at the moment is politicians attacking other parties, we don't want to know what the other side will do or how bad it'll be under then, we want to know what you and your party will do to make people's lives better and we've seen bugger all at this confrence, carry on like that, thinking they can just get in by poo pooing the opposition and the Tories will sleepwalk the country into a Labour government

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Exactly TD as it seems they have learned diddly squat since the general election and the reasons why they failed to get a decent majority and thus since then they have basically carried on in the same vein.

Its no good them continuing the predictable attacks on the opposition as many voters are fed up with those Ad hominem attacks as was seen at the general election as they are the party of government so its up to them to give voters a real reason why they should vote for the Conservatives and thus so far there ain't many in my book.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Not acceptable IMO from a man who is supposed to be this country's foreign secretary.:(

http://news.sky.com/story/boris-john...odies-11066168

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

May has announced organ donation will now be opt-out rather than opt-in and a energy price cap.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

l am glad organ donation is now opt out and as for a energy cap well lets see as we have heard about this several times before and still nowt has been done yet.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

that will have repercussions people aren't cattle to be butchered for parts

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Its nothing like that papa so you can get that out of your imaginary mind.:)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Organ donation ought to have been opt out anyway IMHO, so many organs going to waste. I'm sure next of kin will still be able to 'object' however.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The Spanish seem to have a organ donation system that works pretty well.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41493370

Well Theresa's big speech went well then (apart from losing her voice, being handed a P45 and the scenery falling down behind her....)

About time on organ donation, if it ever happens. She just need to hire some doctors , nurses and hospitals to do the surgery. She has a tendency of announcing things she can't or doesn't deliver (e.g. the energy price cap again...) Suspect she won't be around for long and all this will soon be forgotten.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

It's the Tapas system :D

Not sure why any potential adult donor would object unless on religious grounds or just ill informed . You're dead yet could still help someone who isn't.
The hospital isn't going to treat you any less well when you're ill just to get their hands on your organs.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

So not donation any more then

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

no we are switching to grave robbing

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

No need to be melodramatic, harvesting is a better term imo

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I'm sure it'll be made clear where the opt-out option is for those that don't want to donate their organs when they've no further use for them.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Hopefully those that opt out will be low priority if they need an organ.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Having known several nurses that deal with this everything will be explained to the deceased persons relatives in a very tactful and considered way and then it is up to the relatives of the deceased to decide their course of action.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

lets hope so if Dewhurst are running the NHS

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Do you need your organs when you're dead? Seems rather wasteful when others do need them.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

that depends on your religious leanings ,my objection is taking without consent just reduces us to meat i don't believe the dead should be used this way unless they have given consent while alive . Assuming consent is wrong in my opinion having to opt out doesn't work for me , when you open someones wallet and find a donor card that means they made a special effort to donate .

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Being selfish I just wonder if my transplant will be any quicker.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

i think a new law needs passing first

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

It's not being selfish. It's a crime that so many perfectly usable organs are lost because there's no proper donating procedure in the UK. I really don't think the vast majority of people will mind being opted in and for those who do object they can register that fact. I can't imagine that if next of kin objected that their wishes would be ignored.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Boris has a lot to answer for.;)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Spot on :tu:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

That's exactly what our bodies are once we've died.

---------- Post added at 18:33 ---------- Previous post was at 18:31 ----------

Talking of people with a lot to answer for just listening to Amber Rudd being dissected by Eddie Mair.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

There are plenty of Fat Cat Tories all situated in one place we could dissect first before cooking...

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

It's not a donation if they just take them, that guy that visits his doners grave every year to thank him for his gift wouldn't need to bother if his transplant happened the day after this proposal comes in.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I'm not sure that's the experience of the many countries that run opt-out donor registers.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I just think it's a great thing to do but the gesture is greatly diminished if they just take organs anyway. Imo they should have put a lot more effort into getting people to volunteer before making it compulsory, a tv advert campaign every few years wasn't enough

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

It's not going to be compulsory. I imagine part of the point is ensuring it's not an exceptional gesture but considered normal. The donor provides the organs after death, they've no further use for them. Cold as it may seem considering a body to be meat or spare parts once brain death is inevitable or has happened that is all the body is, a cadaver of organs and other flesh. Many religions adhere to this as well. Once the mind / soul is gone what's left is a shell. Most bodies are going in the oven at gas mark a lot or are going into a box and into the ground anyway.

Anyway I'll shush on that note, this is turning into something of a philosophy thing and my thoughts on these matters remain the same.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I have no problem with this at all hence my donating my body to Cardiff University Hospital.

My left over shell will be a learning tool for trainee doctors to help them develop the skills to help people in the future.

I promise you, I won't feel a thing!

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The plotters are becoming even more open and ambitious now according to this.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-a3651546.html

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Everyone feeling the strength and stability?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

PAGE NOT FOUND...
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The address could have been entered incorrectly, or the page could have gone missing.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

If you press the home page there is a headline exclusive there.

https://www.standard.co.uk/

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-politics-live

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

When David Davis is next at the EU table, which direction will he be looking in I wonder? :)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Toilet Door probably

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Straight down as he'll be bent over it.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I'd prefer it always to be considered an exceptional gesture and hope it does become the norm at the same time.

I'm not convinced by Nigel's argument but agree with him completely about the education part

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenter...opt-out-donor/

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Some Tories are asking for May to go: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41519601

Nonsense if you ask me. We're running out months to negotiate Brexit since we gave Article 50 before losing a month or two over the election and now the Tories are back to their power games.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Ah! The Cameron position as the broom handle is deftly administered.:D

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Meh Cameron did about as well as was feasible in the renegotiation he did and was given about as much as was possible.

Compared to how David Davis is doing he was a superhero, though that's what happens when you have at least some of the cards and aren't spending more time negotiating with your own party than the EU.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Maybe May should ask Corbyn what to do about all this insurrection within the ranks. :D

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

May needs to go, she is limping on like the bloody ‘difficult woman’, Ken Clark said she is. Cabinet Ministers like Amber Rudd, saying she is fully behind May, Rudd herself needs to be mindful she just scraped through her Constituency Election result, after several vote recounts.

The Tory Party is in disarray, The Cabinet is in disarray, the pretence that all is well here, is not fooling anyone.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I agree but who would you suggest would replace her?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

a brexiter who will get us out fast , and clear the front bench of traitors ;)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

There really is an incredible dearth of talent available isn't there?

---------- Post added at 12:20 ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 ----------

Something I do agree with Boris Johnson on, a good thing about the UK leaving the EU is that politicians may have to start owning their mistakes. Or they'll find other scapegoats, as he usually does.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Amen to that. :tu:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Her election campaign and poor election result fatally wounded her IMO and it has been downhill all the way since..

---------- Post added at 13:01 ---------- Previous post was at 13:00 ----------

Any suggestions?.;)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Hmm.

Someone who will trash the UK's economy for the foreseeable and ensure the upper echelons of government are an echo chamber and propaganda machine.

Man of the people Jacob Rees-Mogg would I'm sure step up if he were convinced to run. John Redwood would likewise be happy to deny dissent and continue his habitual lying to the populace. Boris Johnson may not be extreme enough.

It's tricky. You need someone that's either a total sociopath or whose dislike for the European Union is so strong it is an obsession that allows them to defy all logic, reason and informed opinion.

Actually when I put it that way it's not tricky at all to find a Conservative that fits that bill. The only complicated part is finding someone that's either deluded enough to believe their own propaganda or callous enough to not care given it'd be their name attached to the consequences for time immemorial. I suspect that's the only reason at least some don't want the job, they know that politics runs on short cycles and they know that leaving the European Union on an ideological timetable rather than a pragmatic one would cause a lot of damage to many sectors of the economy and them become a pariah.

To be honest I reckon that's the only reason Theresa May is still in charge.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Boris!:D:D:D

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

someone who supports the majority that voted leave and delivers democracy .

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2017/10/4.jpg

The high employment has come at the cost of cratering productivity growth - we are producing, per hour, 0.9% more than we were 10 years ago.

The OBR's forecasts giving the Chancellor nearly 30 billion to ease the impact of Brexit on the economy assumed much higher productivity growth. His war chest of 26 billion has just been cut by 2/3rds.

This also means less cash to spend on the goodies that were discussed during the Conservative Party conference.



Although if I'm doing Paramore perhaps this is more appropriate:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Igni, Corrected those Youtube links, you've added. No need to add full youtube url after the [ youtube ] tabs, just the video identifier after the = symbol. :)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Ah got you. Thank you, Sir.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I see David Cameron has come out to back Mrs May, not sure how comforting that is to her, given his best buddy @ The London Evening Standard wanted to see her chopped up in to bags in his freezer.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Nothing like being given the backing by someone as when a football manager is given the backing they usually ain't that long in the job afterwards.;)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Even Michael Gove is banging the “She should stay” drum. The man is ghastly, not to be trusted, Osborne is probably messaging Gove right now, telling him to get those back stabbing knives out again.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Yes l would not trust Gove one jot as he has shown his true colours before but the thing is if May does go l can't think of many suitable candidates to replace her..

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Doesn't she look tired ;)

And don't the alternatives look incredibly scary. God help UK plc.

---------- Post added at 19:50 ---------- Previous post was at 19:48 ----------

Totally agree with you on that one Mick. They are all two faced back stabbing schoolboys playing games in the playground. We're the fall guys. They will all be alright at the end of the day.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I think they should keep her and let them do the job. This is absurd now. Another leadership challenge, another reshuffle and more infighting. Worst of all we'll have 4 more years of 'unelected prime minster' slogans.

The Tory party need to govern already.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

They are unfit to Govern, any of them. A self interested elite, who will change their views from day to day and who they support if it gets them power. I would say 'same old Tories', but that would be unfair on previous Tories.

She should get a grip and start sacking people if she wants to continue. Get them deselected as MPs too. Rule by terror, worked for Mrs T, the Tory faithful would love it.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

You can see how weak she is. she was being propped up by her husband coming off the stage at the end of that coughing thing.

strong?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Theresa May receives more bad news with the latest opinion poll showing the opposition pushing further ahead.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7988166.html

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Can you all stand back a moment and reflect that a lot, and I meant lot, of people in this country think Corbyn would make a better prime minister. Am I dreaming or what? This is the future of your children and grandchildren we are talking about here. You could not make this up .. the Tories are committing electoral suicide.

How did we get in this mess? It's like we were sold boat tickets to the promised land only to discover, once the ship had sailed, we find we are on the Titanic!