Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Lord Lansley, the former Conservative health secretary believes health cuts meant his cancer was missed.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...ning-68wmbbgqv


https://www.theguardian.com/society/...vealing-cancer

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Very sad.

Conversely, great article in today's FT headed "Dorset experiment breaks down NHS silos to improve care". It explains how Dorset (one of ten NHS-designated Integrated Care Systems in England) hopes it will prove part of the solution to sustaining the service’s free-at-the point-of-delivery model.
https://www.ft.com/content/ee50b4bc-...e-cc62a39d57a0

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

There is not enough joined up thinking and planning occurring within the hierarchies of the various 'trusts'.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

So many plans we had been promised would roll out fully nationally yet many have not even been rolled out to half the country thus so far.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Leeds teaching hospitals it currently going through some changes. For those that don't live in Leeds we currently have 3 local hospitals the 2 main ones being St James's (Jimmys) about 2 miles or so on the outskirts of the city centre which is a pretty big hospital and then in the centre its self is the Leeds general infirmary (LGI) which is just as big as jimmys about 6 miles from the 2 others is Seacroft Hospital which has more or less been knocked down for housing and has no A&E facilities and is mainly being used as a small outpatients now as there is no inpatient facilities anymore.

I work there which has a 46 bedded renal unit biggest in the UK covering 92 patients a day over 2 areas on the site there is also a big IVF day unit on site and prosthetic as well as a blood bank storage facility.

The land at Seacroft is no longer owned by the NHS and the remaining buildings that are active are on loan from the land owners (5 year lease I think). 2 years ago they put the Leeds Renal services out for tender. this covers a large area as well with smaller satellite units around Leeds that cover around 24/28 patients a day (Pontefract, Huddersfield, Halifax, Dewsbury and Beeston) Not inc St James's renal unit as that would be staying they said were breaking even on cost for the Renal Services £25m a year and felt that a private company could better manage it.

However after some debate and little info to us minion staff nobody wanted it and we are currently in Limbo once the Lease on the land runs out in about 2/3 years.

We later found out by the trust saving that 25m it would give them Foundation status needed to control their own finances.

Just recently though I our local MP has got onboard because they are now going to privatise the facilitates services instead (porters, housekeepers etc) this will give them the Foundation Status they need.

However the Unions are onboard because they said once any Trust gets that Status then it means they dont need to go to central Gov to ask permission to make changes in their own trusts areas so they can basically sell off what they want and change what they want to manage their own Money.

The Gov seem to think Hospitals can better manage services this way when in control of their own finances as long as they can maintain the targets set for Foundation status. but my local union rep says this is a really bad idea and can mean big changes for us all.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Looks like Theresa May is the root cause of some of the lack of doctors.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-a3828626.html

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Around 400 (mostly junior) doctors isn't going to make much of a dent in 100,000 vacancies. They were able to apply again for the next quota period.

The lack of medical staff is a WORLDWIDE problem.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

This is just one example, there will be many more. We haven't trained of invested enough in medical professionals, hence our desperate need for overseas staff. We expect them to take out massive loans so they can care for us, a lack of takers is no surprise !

I guess those Doctors will be off to Germany, don't blame them, they were mad to consider the UK in the first place.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Breast scan error 'shortened up to 270 lives' - Hunt - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43973652

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Our need? Just about every 1st world country has the same problems. Nothing whatsoever to do with student loans.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Not good news, particularly as membership of such a generous pension scheme helps keep valuable medical staff in this country.
https://www.ft.com/content/e295716e-...1-cd4d49afbbe3

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

This is the price for austerity. Sadly, short term austerity has long term implications.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Very true (and it often costs more in the long run).

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

I think this says a lot more about the cost of providing a pension you can live on. This problem is not just an NHS problem and it's not really related to austerity. Public service pensions have always been costly but they do provide excellent benefits. The fact that these benefits require such input from salary every month is why so many people are struggling, or opt out of the scheme.

Private sector workers contribute less, but also get less benefits. I think the whole pensions arrangements for people in work needs a massive overhaul. It's not beyond the wit of man (or woman) to figure out some practical ways of alleviating the burden on employees that doesn't require an ever increasing retirement age.
.
For example, why do we continue to pay out State pensions to those who are benefiting from good pension scheme payouts? Why can't we have different contribution rates to allow for less attractive but worthwhile pension payouts in retirement?

We can blame austerity for everything if that's your agenda, but with many big issues of the day, it is the systemic problems that are creating these situations. Politicians need to grasp the nettle, be prepared to face down protests from groups that would lose out but could afford to do so and make things better for everyone who is currently struggling.

The raid on pensions by Gordon Brown did not help the situation, frankly. A Labour Chancellor should have known better.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

It’d be an extremely bold move (and act of political suicide) to be the party that starts telling people that despite paying into the Ponzi scheme that is the state pension you aren’t getting anything out.

Your suggestion is to penalise those who made adequate plans and compensate those who didn’t.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

:tu:

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

You mean, like people paying towards the NHS who rely on private health care? Like people whose tax goes towards education despite them having no children themselves?

We are all taxed to provide essential services to the population for the common good, and State pension contributions are no different. A lot of our taxes go towards various State benefits that many of us have never claimed, but you don't hear many people moaning about that principle. As long as it doesn't go to scroungers, of course.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Those who abuse the system should be brought to book of that there is no doubt but alas much of the media demonise the many millions who claim benefits in this country and some of the populace form their opinions from such uneducated prejudiced trash.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

People who pay for private healthcare are fully aware they'll have to continue paying for the NHS via taxation when they do so. They're also not denied the same level of NHS care as anyone else either.

We need more people to contribute to a private pension. It's not going to help if we financially punish those who do so by removing their state pension to compensate for their own prudence in saving for their retirement.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

I don't think most of the population have a problem with proportionate benefits going to genuine claimants, Den. However, many do think that there is too much abuse of the system. Unfortunately, whenever the Government tries to clamp down on that abuse, genuine claimants are caught up in a lot of bureaucratic hurdles which I for one am very concerned about.

There are no easy answers unfortunately, other than increased policing of the system, which will be resented by some, and which will probably cost more money than it saves.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

These are the latest figures in given by the DWP of fraud and error in the benefit system.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...-2017-2018.pdf

---------- Post added at 10:23 ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 ----------

There will be a level of abuse within any system of that there is no doubt but the reality of how much is often replaced by the lazy uninformed uneducated media trash that some form their opinions from..

---------- Post added at 10:28 ---------- Previous post was at 10:23 ----------

Absolutely as some patients long term medical conditions are never going to improve and only worsen as time goes on and they certainly should have to go through the constant bureaucratic hurdles which they are currently having to face as we have seen with the PIP fiasco.

---------- Post added at 10:29 ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 ----------

It will cost more more money then it saves.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Not sure how many more people can contribute towards a private pension from the following https://www.gov.uk/employers-workplace-pensions-rules.

A private pension isn't prudence anymore now, it's pretty much common sense (not to mention automatic) however, i can imagine it's also financially challenging for a great deal of people due to wage inflation etc.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

As others have stated paying for private healthcare is a choice that doesn’t deny you access to the NHS. People who don’t have children presumably received an education themselves, so at least benefitted themselves at some time.

The number of people with private healthcare, or no children, is quite small compared to the sizeable chunk of the population you would propose to deny a state pension. The fact that there is an NHS and we all fund education as the accepted norm, as is a State Pension. By going against this with a huge set of the population is political suicide as I said.

If we chose an arbitrary line at say, today’s 30 year olds, you’d target the same people for whom housing is unaffordable. Some got hit with tens of thousands in tuition fees and saving for retirement is difficult enough without telling them the minimum state baseline is being taken away. Target anyone too close to State Pension age and there will be outrage at how little time they have to prepare.

Any such changes would need to be accompanied by a solving the problems such as in work poverty, house prices, and probably require higher levels of taxation to pay for these solutions to make it acceptable to the people you propose to hit. Inheritance tax could be used to claw back amounts paid to those retired now and receiving it. Again, this would be hugely unpopular, but at least the burden would be shared this way.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Difference being that if you are in an accident, the NHS wouldn't check to see if you had Private Health before sending an ambulance and giving you emergency treatment (which Private Health wouldn't cover anyway).

Why would we penalise those who had the foresight/ability to save to make retirement more comfortable - on those lines, why not introduce compulsory letting (free of charge) of rooms if you have a house with more bedrooms than you need for your family, as you obviously don't need those rooms?

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

:tu:

---------- Post added at 12:23 ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 ----------

:tu:

---------- Post added at 12:29 ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 ----------

I receive a state pension plus my teacher's pension. The latter is peanuts compared to the state pension..I need the state pension or I'd need to apply for all sorts of other benefits.

Also what are the stats for those like my parents who payed in and NEVER lived to receive the State Pension? Where did their contributions go?

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

As Governments tend to spend more money than they receive through taxation, contributors like your parents would have funded day-to-day spending.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

While that is the case people who lived to be 100 got far more out of it for their contributions. Which is part of the reason it's becoming unsustainable in the long run, but as I said it's political suicide without wholesale reforms to redistribute wealth across the generations on a massive scale.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

So would you take away the state pensions those people have paid into or make it mandatory that they must die at a certain age?

Since they started paying in the NHS and medical research have concentrated on extehding life. That comes at a cost. One of the costs is work for more years like it or not.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Those aren't the sole options for resolving it.

I said 'wholesale reforms to redistribute wealth'- one or two measures wouldn't adequately resolve the problem.

We have one generation who sold off all the state assets for a low tax economy, who have accumulated wealth as a result and we have the other end of the spectrum paying for their own further education (unlikely to ever pay this debt off, so in effect an additional tax throughout their lifetime), struggling to get on the housing ladder, and who is having to pay taxes covering the interest for huge deficits and debts built up by previous generations.

It's not going to be sustainable to tell the second group that they are going to get punished again to cover the excesses of those who went before them.

A first step would be to break the triple lock on State Pension increases and link it to the CPI only - the triple lock is essentially a bribe to that part of the electorate anyway.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Hold on, i’m 48, my wife is 43, both from working class backgrounds. Meaning that they worked. “ working class” seems to have a different meaning nowadays. i pull in a salary of £55K+. Her £130K+. We didn’t receive 1penny from our parents because they didn’t haven’t it. We didn’t get our first home until I was 30. We now, through hard work and good decisions live in a very nice house in the country. With a whopping mortgage that we can service.

So because i’m Doing the right thing you want to distribute my work? That’s what you’re saying...

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

That's not actually what I said at all. I think you know that as you decided to remove the rest of my post from your quote for the sake of starting an argument.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Flight of capital only applies if that’s easy to do. In a post Brexit world if people want to make profits in this country then it will be easier to tax.

The triple lock is a bribe. Nothing less and nothing more.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Exactly.

One thing these figures also miss is the £10 billion or so that is not claimed in the first place.

Whatever system there is creating hoops for the claimants to jump through, the fraudulent claimers will not be the ones affected. After all, they have put a lot of time and effort into making sure their income continues.

The people affected are those who are told they are fit to work, whilst being hooked up to machines to keep them going through their latest cancer treatment. Those who are vulnerable and bewildered by the whole system who end up abused by sharks and the likes of Atos.

The obsession with nit picking over a tiny percentage of benefit claimants, is a distraction from the real problem of a tax system so convoluted that the wealthy can pay a smaller percentage of their income in tax than the poorest.

Meanwhile the other beneficiaries are private companies being paid for gash assessments, which long term cause so much misery.

Tax evasion is a far bigger loss to government finances than fraudulent benefit claims.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

You ignore the fact that the NHS has had to change to due advances in medical research and new treatments which help people survive conditions which would have been terminal before, and that people are living longer, which takes more resources.

In the 1970’s (pre-Thatcher), premature births before 27 weeks had a 80% mortality rate, now it’s 89% survival rate (unfortunately, often with ongoing medical needs).

Cancer survival rates has greatly increased, but with the associated costs.

Survival from serious accidents has greatly increased (the "golden hour"), but again, at increased costs and often ongoing medical care.

Comparing the NHS in the 70s and now is like comparing a motor car factory in the 70s and now - different needs, progress has happened, more complex and and highly technical support is often required, and things are done differently because it’s a different world.

In 1970, the U.K. child mortality rate was 21.8 per 100,00 births, now it’s 3.7. Cancer survival rates (10 year) have doubled since 1970, and in the 70s, most premature births of under 25 weeks were left to die, nowadays most survive.

Trying to retrofit what one worked under different circumstances very rarely works.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

The facts you describe are not in dispute.

It's the way the NHS is run, particularly at hospital level, front line, that I am criticising. Sure technical specialists are required in addition to clinical staff but in my dealings with the NHS, I sense too high an administrative burden which reduces the money available for midwives, district nurses and all the services we enjoyed in that way 20 years ag,.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

The difference with Midwives and District Nurses is down to how GPs are funded separately from the rest of the NHS. GP services are increasingly run by private companies, who are squeezing out the traditional family doctor service. More and more areas are having to fight to keep local surgeries due to funding issues coupled with problems getting GPs. One local area has no GP service at all due to the Private company pulling out, with no one else willing to take it on. In a town that has tripled in size this causes a huge strain on the remaining Health Centres.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

How can we fill these nursing vacancies?
https://www.ft.com/content/8f2d6e22-...5-04b8afea6ea3

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Not helped by the cut to nursing bursaries, meaning even fewer are joining the profession.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

https://www.rcn.org.uk/news-and-even...een-a-disaster Lack of "joined-up" thinking...

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

This is why governments need to be really careful when they decide on austerity measures. Short term thinking leads to long term problems. Although the Tory dislike of the NHS never helps anyway.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Common sense long term policy making obviously went out of the window..

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Well, the nurses accommodations at the Leeds General Infirmary were closed because no one wanted to live there - they were shabby, had terrible heating, shared bathrooms and toilets...

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

If so, this has not manifested itself in spending on the NHS. I don't like party politics but it's a fact that Labour has consistently raised spending on the NHS in real terms far more than the Conservatives. (5.6% v 1.3%)
If you scroll down to the chart towards the bottom of this page you will see the evidence. https://www.channel4.com/news/factch...n-with-the-nhs

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

That's right, and Labour's throwing money at the NHS was wasted. It didn't prevent the pitiful situation of patients having to drink out of vases, did it?

In my view, the NHS could be a lot more efficient without having to allocate billions more every year.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

I thought computers were going to streamline everything, and make the NHS faster and more efficient.

I guess nobody factored in the cost of new and 'improved' systems every year
. . . and then there's a TV at every bedside, many of which don't get used.

Sometimes I swear the world is going backwards in the name of progress :rolleyes:

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Private sector IT solutions for the Public Sector have never really worked out (for the public sector/tax payer anyway, the companies have done very well).

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

At a over a Fiver a day can one be surprised.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

The last conversation I had with my Dad was on how to work out the fecking card machine tv, so he could watch the footy. The equipment seemed way more complex and took up more space than the machines that temporarily kept him alive. All seemed wrong somehow.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Spain is the problem with that, not the UK.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Let's hope the Spanish move swiftly with their legislation this year.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

TBF It's likely a nightmare to build a proper, built for purpose, IT system for the entire NHS. Which isn't helped by the 'everything must be done on the cheap' tender process. We really need a NHS-wide patient database that follows us everywhere.

There is also talk of mass collecting all these records, making them anonymous, and using all the data to better inform diagnoses and treatment procedures. The NHS is uniquely positioned to do this as well. No other country, at least anywhere near our size, does their medical system this way but given the leaps we might make with large data sets we could really benefit from it.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

If we go by the last NHS IT fiasco l doubt they will have another try in a hurry.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24130684

https://www.computerweekly.com/opini...-for-IT-failed

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Well they will have to try again eventually. It doesn't have to be one monolithic system but there should be a NHS-wide patient database imo.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

l agree with everything you said but given the track record thus so far the chances of a decent enough NHS-wide database ever coming to fruition are not good.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

I used to write code for the NHS many years back and we had our own patient system, had ward terminals where staff needed to swipe a barcode on their badges to login in. It didn't store patient clinical data though we were working on that. This was all in the good old DOS days. It all worked. Each month we supplied data back to a central clearing house who passed back to the sourcing NHS districts.

Each year the government changed the format for new submissions, including extra information and each year in May we ran our export for April and submitted the new data and each year big NHS areas that had expensive turnkey systems would ask us for the old format which we couldn't do as our systems no longer had the old data.

Also there were some huge manuals that defined how data items should be stored, e.g. values for gender, date formats, codes for GP. It show what information was needed for a patient, inpatient episodes, outpatient occurrences etc. It always seems obvious to me that GP's, hospitals etc can choose what ever system they want but it has to talk "NHS speak" to the outside. So the NHS/government defines how queries are made, how incoming data is formatted, and how answers are to be formatted. The developers of the various platforms have to implement the "interface", how they do it is up to them, it's irrelevant.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Well, if they were capable of specifying and procuring suitable systems to operate in the NHS, computers would make a tremendous difference.

The problem is, of course, that there is a lack of good computer experts in the NHS and every new system they introduce tends to be a disaster.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Some good news for a change :)
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...-study-nursing

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

It's a start but more are leaving than joining. We're losing out to other EU countries for obvious reasons. Over 40,000 nursing vacancies at the moment.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

I'm sure you're willing to share those reasons with us ;)

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

I just see the NHS as a big greedy, but loveable, black Labrador. It doesn’t matter how much you feed it, it’s still hungry. It will eat and eat and eat and eat.

Until you realise, the dog isn’t the issue, it’s you. You keep feeding it all the time and you think you’re doing the right thing.

No. Check what it needs, measure your portions. Find out exactly what it needs and feed it accordingly. You’ll have a nice trim and healthier dog that can run around and play all day. instead of a fat one that everyone loves, but doesn’t Do much.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

So you think the NHS doesn't do much is a bit of a dog ? :rolleyes:

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

There's another angle to consider in the modernization of the NHS IT systems and it sits in the primary care aspect of things.

Many years ago i was involved in Choose & Book, ETP, PACS & The Spine. I was asked to observe the training of GP's on C&B and none of them wanted it, and none of them would use it. not so sure how much have things changed. But there was a ridiculous amount of resistance to change

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

The Germans are nicking our Polish nurses! How dare they steal our immigrants ! Tbh, they probably won't take a lot of persuading given the abuse some get here.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...y_to_clipboard

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Nothing to worry about, apparently there are millions on non europeans flooding in as we speak ;)

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Yes, the reaction to suggesting email is used reflects the resistance to overdue change. Like a lot of change management, it's the people not the technology that is the hurdle.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Lol, the order of the headlines in the 6pm news sums this country up.

Main headline:- Royal Baby name (yawn).
Crisis in GP numbers demoted to second...
Which affects us more?

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

It's per 100,000 people, so how many people we let into the country is a huge factor.
How many are working as locums and will not be included in the figures. How else can they afford to work only part-time?

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Odd thing is, the people that arrive may well be the Doctors and Nurses we need, but more importantly, the least likely to use the NHS.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Meaningless. unless the percentage of those that are GPs is more than the existing percentage. The number of GPs per 100,000, which is the measure being used, will go down.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

We're an agieng population, which means we will need more GPs/healthcare. People can't seem to understand this fact, or that we are in desperate need for healthcare professionals, wherever they are from. Other countries are in the same situation, but they are seem the more attractive option for potential recruits atm, wonder why?

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

It is the volume of patients each GP has to see. This is down to there not being enough GPs and an ageing population. 2/5 of all NHS use is by people over 65.

Assuming more people is the problem does not actually address the shortage.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Still irrelevant to a number of GPs per 100,000 measure.


Other countries do have similar problems, but if they are such an attractive option, why are they still having problems?
Link

24,945 of those came to the UK. That's more than Germany and Sweden combined.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Those figure are pre-Brexit vote aren't they?

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Still means the UK was a better option than all other EU countries. The accusation was made that other EU countries were more attractive.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

The UK may have been a better option, but no more. We don't half know how to shoot ourselves in the foot sometimes.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Doctors from outside the EU already find the UK attractive.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

It wasn't. The suggestion was that other EU countries are not were more attractive.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

If we let them in. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8324831.html

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Here's an immediate test for Boris, time for some major investment NOW (as promised).

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...y_to_clipboard

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

What are you on about, Mr K? Nobody is suggesting that doctors should be prevented from coming into this country, are they?

I suppose that because you imply it continuously, it must be true. :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 10:11 ---------- Previous post was at 10:08 ----------

Yes, that is bad, but Boris's new point-based immigration system will resolve that. We are still working under May's rules at the moment.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

That was resolved rather quickly in 2018.

LINK

Pity Mr K doesn't keep up to date or perhaps does it on purpose? IDK.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Ah, yes, that article was dated April 2018! Hadn't noticed that but I thought it was strange!

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Yes I posted that back in May OB, do keep up ! ;)

Wonder where all these 40 new hospitals are going to be built ?
Or the 50,000 new nurses, seeing as we currently.have 44,000 vacancies, forecast to rose to 100,000. in a decade ...
https://www.peoplemanagement.co.uk/n...s-warns-report

We wait with anticipation...

---------- Post added at 11:32 ---------- Previous post was at 11:20 ----------

Maybe we should bring conscription back - for nursing ?

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Yes you did, 11 months after it had been resolved.

Your link from April 2018

Resolved by June 2018

Your post May 2019.

Did you think you'd fool us into thinking that you'd posted it before it was resolved?

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

NHS will survive Mr K, I'm more concerned that we now won't get the 2 billion new trees that your mate Corbin would have provided, and the free broadband for all . . . or was that just empty promises too?

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

The tree thing was do able, Norway have been constantly reforresting for 100 years and now have three times as much as they used to besides which planting loads of trees was a far better aspiration than flogging off the forestry commission

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Please note that deciduous trees are no good in the winter months so we need to plant coniferous varieties as well.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Don't think we need worry about it at all now Richard...

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

I might tell Greta you said that...!:D

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

You know what, if we did do something like that it might save us getting lectured by an annoying school girl, sod the clean air it's worth it for that alone

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

[QUOTE=noel43;36020669]Where are we going with this? Ah, yes, the NHS collapses and then this filthy rich company called Trump Inc comes along and saves the day.

Nothing wrong with that, necessarily. Nice modern hospitals would spring up, the staff would be bright and alert, and ready to deal with any emergency, and giant burgers available in the canteen (keeping the customers coming back for weight loss surgery)....

In case of confusion, I have taken noel's post from the Brexit thread as we seemed to be digressing.

---------- Post added at 12:44 ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 ----------

The hospital grounds aren't big enough for all those trees....:disturbd:

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

TV programme on Channel 4 tonight at 9pm.
The Cure.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

This is what worries me. We all appreciate having a health service free at the point of delivery, but it is inefficient and often provides unsatisfactory service. It needs a fundamental overhaul, and if the private sector can help by making things work better, we should not shrink from going down that route. As long as it continues to be 'free', why should it matter who provides the service?

I hope Boris sets up a Royal Commission to look into the integration of health and social care and to recommend ways of ensuring these services are brought up to the standard we expect as efficiently as possible.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Because if there is a profit motive, this reduces the amount spent on the service, and adds layers of bureaucracy and cost.

The French and German model is run on State and Registered Charity model, not on a "for profit" model; the estimate is that about 30 percent of American health care expenditures were the result of administration, and that’s before the profit margin is introduced. Private Health in this country depends on the NHS as a backstop - if anything goes seriously wrong, the patient is shipped to the NHS for intensive care & emergency care.

A perfect example of where involving the private sector went wrong is the Probation system - the focus was on cost savings, not making the service fit for purpose.

I agree we need to look at a holistic solution for health and social care, as there are too many gaps at present.