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-   -   [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33700839)

techguyone 21-02-2016 11:47
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
I think it's important for the Out team to really drive home the point that we as a Nation managed remarkably well just fine prior to '73 when we joined the then 'common market'

The World won't end if we leave - it's not the big scary that it will be portrayed to be.

Osem 21-02-2016 11:47
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
I may be missing something (other than the usual flawed EU policy) but, given the massive role uncontrolled migration is playing in this, wouldn't it have been a lot simpler just to agree some form of ceiling (perhaps based on population in some way) beyond which individual nations would be able to stop further migration. It'd work both ways too, I expect there are countries who're desperate to avoid being stripped of their young, bright, mobile people leaving for pastures new and storing up future problems for their homelands. Perhaps I'm just being silly...

Kymmy 21-02-2016 12:28
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35822997)
Has been specified then?
Nope, hence I used the word "probably" ;)

It's an educated guess

---------- Post added at 12:28 ---------- Previous post was at 12:24 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35822999)
I may be missing something (other than the usual flawed EU policy) but, given the massive role uncontrolled migration is playing in this, wouldn't it have been a lot simpler just to agree some form of ceiling (perhaps based on population in some way) beyond which individual nations would be able to stop further migration. It'd work both ways too, I expect there are countries who're desperate to avoid being stripped of their young, bright, mobile people leaving for pastures new and storing up future problems for their homelands. Perhaps I'm just being silly...
Problem is that the current migration problems are blamed on conflict so most are claiming asylum. The truth though probably is that most are economic migrants using the conflict as an excuse.

As soon as asylum seekers are in another country it's hard under law to remove them back to the conflict zone.

Ramrod 21-02-2016 12:33
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
1 Attachment(s)
:D

Damien 21-02-2016 13:34
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35624409

Quote:
Staying in the EU will make the UK more vulnerable to Paris-style terrorist attacks, Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith has told the BBC.

Osem 21-02-2016 13:53
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Given the debacle which is Schengen I think that's incontrovertible. That's not to say that we in the UK can pat ourselves on the back too hard or delude ourselves that we'll be safe outside the EU because, as we know our, borders aren't exactly secure as any truck driver will tell you.

http://news.sky.com/story/1532775/il...ught-on-camera

Taf 21-02-2016 14:13
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
What Cameron wanted: Allowing Britain to opt out from the EU's founding ambition to forge an "ever closer union" of the peoples of Europe so it will not be drawn into further political integration in a "formal, legally binding and irreversible way". Giving greater powers to national parliaments to block EU legislation.

What the draft deal said: "The references to an ever closer union among the peoples are... compatible with different paths of integration being available for different member states and do not compel all member states to aim for a common destination.
"It is recognised that the United Kingdom... is not committed to further political integration into the European Union.
"Where reasoned opinions on the non-compliance of a draft union legislative act with the principle of subsidiarity, sent within 12 weeks from the transmission of that draft, represent more than 55% of the votes allocated to the national parliaments, the council presidency will include the item on the agenda of the council for a comprehensive discussion."

What the final deal said: "It is recognised that the United Kingdom, in the light of the specific situation it has under the Treaties, is not committed to further political integration into the European Union. The substance of this will be incorporated into the Treaties at the time of their next revision in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Treaties and the respective constitutional requirements of the Member States, so as to make it clear that the references to ever closer union do not apply to the United Kingdom."

Assessment: Mr Cameron has secured a commitment to exempt Britain from "ever closer union" to be written into the treaties. He has also negotiated the inclusion of a "red-card" mechanism, a new power. If 55% of national parliaments agree, they could effectively block or veto a commission proposal. The question is how likely is this "red card" system to be used. A much weaker "yellow card" was only used twice. The red-card mechanism depends crucially on building alliances. The sceptics say it does not come close to winning the UK back control of its own affairs - and Mr Cameron is set to announce further measures which he claims will put the sovereignty of the Westminster Parliament "beyond doubt".
Some key areas also appear to be have been dropped along the way. There will be no repatriation of EU social and employment law, which was a 2010 manifesto commitment. There will be no changes to the working-hours directive.

Migrants and welfare benefits

What Cameron wanted: The Conservative manifesto said: "We will insist that EU migrants who want to claim tax credits and child benefit must live here and contribute to our country for a minimum of four years." It also proposed a "new residency requirement for social housing, so that EU migrants cannot even be considered for a council house unless they have been living in an area for at least four years".
The manifesto also pledged to "end the ability of EU jobseekers to claim any job-seeking benefits at all", adding that "if jobseekers have not found a job within six months, they will be required to leave".
Mr Cameron also wanted to prevent EU migrant workers in the UK sending child benefit or child tax credit money home. "If an EU migrant's child is living abroad, then they should receive no child benefit or child tax credit, no matter how long they have worked in the UK and no matter how much tax they have paid," says the Tory manifesto.

What the draft deal said:"[New legislation will] provide for an alert and safeguard mechanism that responds to situations of inflows of workers from other member states of an exceptional magnitude over an extended period of time… the implementing act would authorise the member state to limit the access of union workers newly entering its labour market to in-work benefits for a total of up to four years from the commencement of employment."

What the final deal said:
On in-work benefits: The Council would authorise that Member State to limit the access of newly arriving EU workers to non-contributory in-work benefits for a total period of up to four years from the commencement of employment. The limitation should be graduated, from an initial complete exclusion but gradually increasing access to such benefits to take account of the growing connection of the worker with the labour market of the host Member State. The authorisation would have a limited duration and apply to EU workers newly arriving during a period of 7 years.

On child benefit: A proposal to amend Regulation (EC) No 883/2004 of the European Parliament and of the Council on the coordination of social security systems in order to give Member States, with regard to the exportation of child benefits to a Member State other than that where the worker resides, an option to index such benefits to the conditions of the Member State where the child resides. This should apply only to new claims made by EU workers in the host Member State. However, as from 1 January 2020, all Member States may extend indexation to existing claims to child benefits already exported by EU workers. The Commission does not intend to propose that the future system of optional indexation of child benefits be extended to other types of exportable benefits, such as old-age pensions;

Assessment: Mr Cameron had to compromise on this aspect of the deal in the face of strong opposition from Poland and three other central European countries. He got the four-year "emergency brake" on in-work benefits he had set such store by - but new arrivals will have their tax credits phased in over four years. The brake will be in place for a maximum of seven years, rather than the 13 years Mr Cameron is thought to have wanted - but the EU has agreed it would be "justified" to trigger it without delay after the referendum if the UK votes to stay in the EU.
Mr Cameron failed in his original demand to ban migrant workers from sending child benefit money back home. Payments will instead be linked to the cost of living in the countries where the children live. The new rules will apply immediately for new arrivals, and for existing claimants from 2020.
The UK government has already reached an agreement on out-of-work benefits. Newly arrived EU migrants are banned from claiming jobseeker's allowance for three months. If they have not found a job within six months they will be required to leave. EU migrant workers in the UK who lose their job, through no fault of their own, are entitled to the same benefits as UK citizens, including jobseekers allowance and housing benefit, for six months.
Neither the draft deal nor the final agreement mention changes to social housing entitlement but they were never part of Mr Cameron's preliminary negotiations.

Economic governance or safeguarding interests of countries outside the eurozone

What Cameron wanted: An explicit recognition that the euro is not the only currency of the European Union, to ensure countries outside the eurozone are not materially disadvantaged. He also wanted safeguards that steps to further financial union cannot be imposed on non-eurozone members and the UK will not have to contribute to eurozone bailouts.

What the draft deal said: "Measures, the purpose of which is to further deepen the economic and monetary union, will be voluntary for member states whose currency is not the euro.
"Mutual respect between member states participating or not in the operation of the euro area will be ensured.
"Legal acts... [between eurozone countries] shall respect the internal market."
What the final deal said: The language on monetary union was unchanged. On financial regulation, this line was added: "The single rulebook is to be applied by all credit institutions and other financial institutions in order to ensure the level-playing field within the internal market."

Assessment: Mr Cameron won guarantees that countries outside the eurozone, such as Britain, will not be required to fund euro bailouts and will be reimbursed for central EU funds used to prop up the euro. The deal also provides a right for any member state to escalate concerns about the impact of eurozone decisions for urgent discussion in the European Council.
But Mr Cameron ran into unexpectedly firm resistance from France on financial regulation. The French wanted to underline was that Britain would not win any "exceptions to the rules of the EU" - particularly in relation to regulation in the City - hence the addition of the "level playing field" line.
Mr Cameron got his explicit recognition that the EU has more than one currency - but it does not go as far mandating "multiple currencies".

Competitiveness

What Cameron wanted: A target for the reduction of the "burden" of excessive regulation and extending the single market.
What the draft deal said: "The EU must increase efforts towards enhancing competitiveness, along the lines set out in the Declaration of the European Council on competitiveness. To this end the relevant EU institutions and the member states will make all efforts to strengthen the internal market….this means lowering administrative burdens."

What the final deal said: Similar language but a promise to establish "where feasible burden reduction targets in key sectors, with commitments by EU institutions and Member State's.

Assessment: This was the least controversial of the government's demands - and Mr Cameron got more than he was offered in the draft document, with target to cut red tape. Such promises have been made before, however, without being matched by reality.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35622105

Kymmy 21-02-2016 14:20
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35823023)
Given the debacle which is Schengen I think that's incontrovertible.
Which again doesn't effect us as we're not part of Shengen and the only land border we share with the EU is to another non-Schengen country which is Ireland... You can not legally walk/ride/fly into the UK/Ireland without passport or some other photographic ID card. All the EU bit does in that case is remove the need for a visa.

Ramrod 21-02-2016 14:28
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35823020)
Quote:
Staying in the EU will make the UK more vulnerable to Paris-style terrorist attacks, Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith has told the BBC.
Of course it will. Glad someone has had the balls to state the bleeding obvious!

---------- Post added at 14:28 ---------- Previous post was at 14:24 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35822974)
Reading posts in this thread it's amazing how many people are only looking at facts that support their in/out aspirations instead of looking at the whole picture.
You are right. The whole picture, all of it, is basically about sovereignty. That is the most important thing in the balance here.
Do we want the full right and power to govern ourselves without any interference from outside?
The only way to get that (back) is to vote out. It's as simple as that.

Kymmy 21-02-2016 14:31
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 35823029)
Of course it will. Glad someone has had the balls to state the bleeding obvious!
How though will it make the UK more vulnerable?

The rest of the EU have open land borders for EU citizens, we do not. All what will change on that count if we come out in relation to checks will be visa requirements.

Coming out of the EU might actually stop intelligence being passed to us regarding EU terrorists.

Again only one side is put on the table.. a bit like the Cameron quote about the Jungle not being Policed if we leave so all the migrants will be free to come through the chunnel.

:banghead:

Osem 21-02-2016 14:32
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
If the EU's external borders are based in places like Greece as a direct result of Schengen, it does indirectly affect us because it enables illegal migrants to penetrate far deeper into Europe than they otherwise would and wind up in places like Calais which is a lot closer to home than Greece. Instead of facing numerous border checks and the risk of being caught and stopped at each, it's go direct to France or Belgium or Holland. Of course if our borders were really secure it wouldn't matter so much* but they're not so it does.

Schengen also facilitates criminality within the EU as was recently demonstrated after the Paris shootings. Again, it just brings the risk factors to our nearest neighbours rather than keeping more of them on the perimeter of Europe.

*Legality and illegality have come to be irrelevant so far as migration is concerned. Plenty of illegal immigrants wind up being granted asylum in the UK for one reason or another. The guy who walked through the Channel Tunnel recently is one such. So called security isn't much use if people who breach it are rewarded instead of punished.

Kymmy 21-02-2016 14:34
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 35823029)
Do we want the full right and power to govern ourselves without any interference from outside?
The only way to get that (back) is to vote out. It's as simple as that.
But that will hurt us with free trade..

Now where's the SWINGS & ROUNDABOUTS emoticon when you need one.

My main worry about leaving will be being forced back in recession and also how leaving will effect my work. Where as I worry about staying and having now a red card system that could be used very much against us as well as Europe dragging us down when the true cost of the migrant disaster hits...

Osem 21-02-2016 14:40
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Why would Europe want to stop selling us their stuff? IIRC we buy more from them than they do from us.
If the argument is that they'll seek to punish the UK (and themselves) for having the temerity to leave the club are they really people we want to be bound to?

Damien 21-02-2016 14:46
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Yeah I don't understand how leaving the EU makes us less vulnerable since the EU will still be there with the migration crisis and the border issues. I think if the Leave side is going to accuse the Remain side of scaremongering, which will undoubtably be true in some cases, it can't do the same thing itself.

---------- Post added at 14:46 ---------- Previous post was at 14:41 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35823035)
Why would Europe want to stop selling us their stuff? IIRC we buy more from them than they do from us.
If the argument is that they'll seek to punish the UK (and themselves) for having the temerity to leave the club are they really people we want to be bound to?
Services is the bigger question: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/42305fa4-a...#axzz40oWaDHtR

Osem 21-02-2016 14:46
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Both sides are going to do the same thing obviously.

Services - can't read the FT article but are we saying that the Germans will expect us to buy their cars and the French their wine but somehow decide not to deal with the City?

Still waiting for someone to tell me why a migration cap couldn't have solved the biggest problem of all.

Kymmy 21-02-2016 14:49
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35823035)
Why would Europe want to stop selling us their stuff? IIRC we buy more from them than they do from us.
Import duty for starters, try adding 10-20% on anything coming from the EU. Also our goods to them would be dearer..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35823035)
If the argument is that they'll seek to punish the UK (and themselves) for having the temerity to leave the club are they really people we want to be bound to?
It's not punishment but instead the cost of doing standard business with the rest of the world. If we're not in the club then we shouldn't expect the benefits from the club and being in that club for 40+ years has skewed costs of products, services...etc.. for a number of those years to a point where we don;t expect it to change yet change it will if we leave. So on that account we can either take the increased costs hoping that the rest of the world will try to step into the gap and offer us cheap goods/services.. or we can stay in the status quo and have freedom of trade with the rest of the EU.

Damien 21-02-2016 14:50
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35823038)
Both sides are going to do the same thing obviously.
True but I think we can call it as we see it rather than have to believe or defend the side that we're backing. I will vote to stay - that isn't going to surprise anyone - but I know some of the stuff the In campaign will say is nonsense. I know that we'll work with the EU to trade intelligence information irrespective of the vote because it's insane not too, especially since we have one of the bigger intelligence agencies of the world.

Likewise I think IDS is wrong about us being more safe out of the EU. Why? Us leaving will still mean the EU exists.

Osem 21-02-2016 15:00
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35823039)
Import duty for starters, try adding 10-20% on anything coming from the EU. Also our goods to them would be dearer..



It's not punishment but instead the cost of doing standard business with the rest of the world. If we're not in the club then we shouldn't expect the benefits from the club and being in that club for 40+ years has skewed costs of products, services...etc.. for a number of those years to a point where we don;t expect it to change yet change it will if we leave. So on that account we can either take the increased costs hoping that the rest of the world will try to step into the gap and offer us cheap goods/services.. or we can stay in the status quo and have freedom of trade with the rest of the EU.
Well yes that action would result in retaliation, hence my point. Any levies imposed on our goods would be balanced by levies we'd make on theirs. Not ideal clearly but they'd still lose more than us and some UK business would be boosted by home produced goods being relatively cheaper than theirs. Don't get me wrong, it's not something I'd recommend or something that's even necessary. I don't see why the EU would do that, especially knowing that the Germans would be the main losers since they are I believe the biggest EU seller into the UK by a country mile.

I don't see any reason for the above to happen when it would suit all the struggling EU economies to come to a mutually beneficial arrangement with the UK. Let's face it, as with expats, if the UK leaves, both sides are going to have to negotiate all sorts of new agreements.

Kymmy 21-02-2016 15:09
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35823042)
Well yes that action would result in retaliation, hence my point. Any levies imposed on our goods would be balanced by levies we'd make on theirs.
The costs though are to us and benefit the government as import duty will be paid by the importers, then put on the cost and then VAT is paid on top of all that.. So the governments benefit, the economy benefits but the general person in the street pays for it all.

It would be interesting to see if we could get any good deals from the worlds workforces and producers ..China, Russia, USA, India..etc and also whether the EU would try to block those deals..

There's so much as to which we can only guess at, some good and some bad which coupled with the things we don't need to guess at is why the stay campaign is currently leading but with the leave group not far behind..

I'm still middle of the road with an erring towards the stay side but will make my choice on what else comes to light between now and the referendum

---------- Post added at 15:09 ---------- Previous post was at 15:07 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35823044)
It would be interesting to see if we could get any good deals from the worlds workforces and producers ..China, Russia, USA, India..etc and also whether the EU would try to block those deals..
One interesting viewpoint will be that by leaving the groups that Farage wants to keep out of the UK (mainly migrants from 3rd world countries) will have an even playing field for work as EU people will have to apply the same as them if we leave :rofl:

Osem 21-02-2016 15:14
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Yes it's certainly not certain but that's what uncharted territory is like. ;)

I really do share all the doubts but have an overriding belief that the EU is doomed and if we're going to go down I'd rather we did so having steered our own course to destruction not theirs.

Damien 21-02-2016 15:17
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
The BBC are reporting Boris will back the Out campaign.

The official announcement is coming at 10pm tonight when the colour of the smoke coming from his chimney will indicate for sure which side he has chosen.

Kymmy 21-02-2016 15:24
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
The only way the EU is doomed is if it doesn't get it's backside into gear over the migrant issue. Borders should have been shut down a long time ago with migrants instantly being returned to whichever country they attempted to enter the EU from.

I'd love for Germany, France and the UK to form their own EU which is purely based on free trade but not based on legal/political/currency aspirations. For me the EU has over-reached in allowing all countries to enter based on an equal footing even when their trade is no-where near equal. Internal migration borders should have been restricted based on proof of skilled/needed work or monetary independence.

The economies of the smaller countries that have either only got over their own dictators less than 50 years ago and or soviet dominance should never have been allowed on an equal footing.

The EU itself is an experiment that needs resetting in it's entirety and not just by one country leaving and letting it continue without a main member. Whether or not a reset would work is another matter and just an extreme thought from my little bwain :p:

Ramrod 21-02-2016 15:56
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35823032)
How though will it make the UK more vulnerable?
Ever closer union, which is what we will gradually get if we vote to stay in, will force us to open our borders to more and more dodgy muslim nutcases......sorry, I meant to say 'refugees'


Quote:
Coming out of the EU might actually stop intelligence being passed to us regarding EU terrorists.
"might".......might not :shrug:

Quote:
Again only one side is put on the table.. a bit like the Cameron quote about the Jungle not being Policed if we leave so all the migrants will be free to come through the chunnel.
That Cameron quote did make me laugh :D

---------- Post added at 15:54 ---------- Previous post was at 15:50 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35823034)
But that will hurt us with free trade..
It won't. The EU will not stop buying & selling with us (they are up sh*t street economically so it would hurt them more to act up trade-wise) and we will be free to negotiate trade deals with the rest of the world.

---------- Post added at 15:56 ---------- Previous post was at 15:54 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35823039)
Import duty for starters, try adding 10-20% on anything coming from the EU. Also our goods to them would be dearer
So we simply negotiate a UK/EU trade deal that removes import duty bilaterally. :shrug:

Escapee 21-02-2016 15:58
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35823044)
The costs though are to us and benefit the government as import duty will be paid by the importers, then put on the cost and then VAT is paid on top of all that.. So the governments benefit, the economy benefits but the general person in the street pays for it all.
The Germans would either have to reduce the cost of the products they sell in the UK or risk losing sales. I think it would be the consumer who ultimately dictates if the scenario happens.

Ramrod 21-02-2016 15:59
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35823048)

The EU itself is an experiment that needs resetting in it's entirety and not just by one country leaving and letting it continue without a main member. Whether or not a reset would work is another matter and just an extreme thought from my little bwain :p:
I'm sure it would work but I'm equally sure that it will never happen. :(

Kymmy 21-02-2016 16:19
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 35823051)
Ever closer union, which is what we will gradually get if we vote to stay in, will force us to open our borders to more and more dodgy muslim nutcases......sorry, I meant to say 'refugees'


"might".......might not :shrug:

That Cameron quote did make me laugh :D

---------- Post added at 15:54 ---------- Previous post was at 15:50 ----------

It won't. The EU will not stop buying & selling with us (they are up sh*t street economically so it would hurt them more to act up trade-wise) and we will be free to negotiate trade deals with the rest of the world.

---------- Post added at 15:56 ---------- Previous post was at 15:54 ----------

So we simply negotiate a UK/EU trade deal that removes import duty bilaterally. :shrug:
So EU benefits without EU membership and no EU costs.. So every cloud does have a sterling silver lining along with the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow ;)

Hom3r 21-02-2016 16:36
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35822955)
Leaving the EU makes no difference to the echr they're entirely different entities I believe, you like myself need to aquaint yourself with some actual facts before reaching a conclusion

---------- Post added at 01:48 ---------- Previous post was at 01:46 ----------



To be fair to Arthur just this once decent hard reliable non biased facts are hard to come by
That what have said all along, we need to be told pros and cons.

denphone 21-02-2016 16:38
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hom3r (Post 35823060)
That what have said all along, we need to be told pros and cons.
You might have to wait a while...;)

tweedle 21-02-2016 17:29
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
The man in the street is better of out, we will be told about all the investment and £billions that come to the UK because we're in Europe. But that doesn't effect us.

Those £Billions end up in off shore tax Havens and only benefit the already rich. But our tax money pays the £billions into Europe. The ordinary man pays a lot in but gets little out.

---------- Post added at 17:29 ---------- Previous post was at 17:26 ----------

:p:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35823034)
But that will hurt us with free trade..

Now where's the SWINGS & ROUNDABOUTS emoticon when you need one.

My main worry about leaving will be being forced back in recession and also how leaving will effect my work. Where as I worry about staying and having now a red card system that could be used very much against us as well as Europe dragging us down when the true cost of the migrant disaster hits...
If you own a company and you decide you don't want to sell to 60 million people because they left Europe then I'm sure many more are happy to.

We do not need Europe,

Kymmy 21-02-2016 17:39
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hom3r (Post 35823060)
That what have said all along, we need to be told pros and cons.
Correct as well as others realising that we only have viewpoints and not conclusions which may be right or wrong.

:D

---------- Post added at 17:39 ---------- Previous post was at 17:33 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by tweedle (Post 35823074)
If you own a company and you decide you don't want to sell to 60 million people because they left Europe then I'm sure many more are happy to.

We do not need Europe,
You believe you don't need Europe, but you can't really speak for the other 63 million.

As for a company... What happens to a UK company that provides services in Europe, should they go out of business and leave many unemployed as the extra cost will make their services uncompetitive compared to companies within the EU

Chris 21-02-2016 17:48
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Boris says No

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35626621

tweedle 21-02-2016 17:48
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35823079)
Correct as well as others realising that we only have viewpoints and not conclusions which may be right or wrong.

:D

---------- Post added at 17:39 ---------- Previous post was at 17:33 ----------



You believe you don't need Europe, but you can't really speak for the other 63 million.

As for a company... What happens to a UK company that provides services in Europe, should they go out of business and leave many unemployed as the extra cost will make their services uncompetitive compared to companies within the EU
What extra cost? If they want to sell to us , an we want to sell to them then we will be fine. All these "what ifs" but not one concrete example! Market forces will ensure were OK.

heero_yuy 21-02-2016 17:52
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35823086)
The big beast that the leave campaign needed is now on board. Cameron must be sick as a parrot. :)

Gavin78 21-02-2016 17:56
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
UK-EU business will still happen they suddenly wont stop trading with the UK simply because we left the EU and this close down of leaving will probably take about 2-3 years anyway before we have fully left the EU.

Nothing much will change and we will no longer have to stick a broom up our backside and ask the EU for if we need the toilet.

I for one will be voting out and that Scottish bint can sod off as well any excuse to get out of england

heero_yuy 21-02-2016 18:03
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin78 (Post 35823089)
I for one will be voting out and that Scottish bint can sod off as well any excuse to get out of england
Well exactly.

There's a deafening silence from the Corbynistas.:erm:

Ramrod 21-02-2016 18:03
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35823058)
So EU benefits without EU membership and no EU costs.. So every cloud does have a sterling silver lining along with the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow ;)
If that's what you mean by my saying "a bilateral trade deal" ie, we don't impose tarrifs on them and they don't impose them on us.......then yes, every cloud can have a sterling silver lining :shrug:

tweedle 21-02-2016 18:07
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
People need to realise..

Europe is a POLITICAL union with some trade benefits. It is NOT simply a trade only Union.

Ramrod 21-02-2016 18:11
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35823079)

As for a company... What happens to a UK company that provides services in Europe, should they go out of business and leave many unemployed as the extra cost will make their services uncompetitive compared to companies within the EU
Kymmy stop with the doom & gloom :)
What happens with the company that suddenly finds itself free of EU red tape and can hence drop it's prices and sell more of it's widgets, cheaper, to the whole world?

---------- Post added at 18:11 ---------- Previous post was at 18:09 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by tweedle (Post 35823094)
People need to realise..

Europe is a POLITICAL union with some trade benefits. It is NOT simply a trade only Union.
Exactly. It's political, first and foremost. This vote is a battle for our survival as a sovereign nation. No less. Everything else (from both sides) is window dressing and scaremongering.

ntluser 21-02-2016 18:12
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
The big problem will be voters who simply vote to stay in because it is the "safe" option rather than researching the pros and cons of the argument and basing their vote on concrete information.

Lots of countries trade with the EU without actually being a member. America trades with the EU and does not have to pay VAT so long as the item purchased is solely for use outside the EU.

We are an entrepreneurial nation and are quite capable of developing business with countries all over the world, like we used to do before we joined the Common Market.

Indeed some of our existing trade with the EU will still continue because the EU needs our business just as we need theirs but without paying the VAT which should make us more competitive.

tweedle 21-02-2016 18:17
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Let's get real, £billionaires who want to get richer and are actually making the poor poorer will convince the poor to vote to stay.

Kymmy 21-02-2016 18:44
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tweedle (Post 35823087)
What extra cost? If they want to sell to us , an we want to sell to them then we will be fine. All these "what ifs" but not one concrete example! Market forces will ensure were OK.
Try buying from the states, or from Japan then you'll understand that it isn't the "what if's" that you've ignored from others which have posted in many posts but actual facts.

We only get free trade benefits as part of the EU, if we're not part then we do not get the benefits and we won't get an agreement unless we capitulate.

The only country outside of the EU yet in the EAA and EFTA is norway and they had to agree to abide by a lot of EU directives to get there.. Also the red tape that people complain about when dealing with the EU will still be there if we trade with them from outside.

I'm not saying we stay in or come out but for gawd sake take off your blinkers and read the posts :banghead:

tweedle 21-02-2016 18:48
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35823101)
Try buying from the states, or from Japan then you'll understand that it isn't the "what if's" that you've ignored from others which have posted in many posts but actual facts.

We only get free trade benefits as part of the EU, if we're not part then we do not get the benefits and we won't get an agreement unless we capitulate.

The only country outside of the EU yet in the EAA and EFTA is norway and they had to agree to abide by a lot of EU directives to get there.. Also the red tape that people complain about when dealing with the EU will still be there if we trade with them from outside.

I'm not saying we stay in or come out but for gawd sake take off your blinkers and read the posts :banghead:
My wife runs her company that exists exclusively due to buying from the US, Japan, China. You're going to have to explain what your import problems are? Because we may be able to help you.

What is the product you're having problems importing? An do not tell me about the cost of shipping to the UK LOL. If it's built in Japan shipping to UK is no more than shipping to France, America, Brazil ect.

Unless of course you own Landrover or any other massive UK based manufacturer I do not see your issue?

But silliness aside, you're saying what YOU say is fact and what anyone posting about leaving Europe says is nonsense?

Chris 21-02-2016 18:55
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35823101)
The only country outside of the EU yet in the EAA and EFTA is norway and they had to agree to abide by a lot of EU directives to get there.
Untrue.

Norway's political leaders willingly signed up to conditions that were barely a step removed from the conditions of EU membership because they fully intended to make Norway a full member of the EU. Inconveniently, the Norwegian people then rejected the prospect of EU membership in a referendum. Norway is therefore left, thanks entirely to the high-handed actions of its politicians, with a deal that saddles them with many of the obligations of membership, and few of the privileges.

It is a fallacy to assume the UK's relationship with the EU, post secession, will look anything like Norway's.

tweedle 21-02-2016 19:18
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Every country in the world wants to export, to put it simply assume all country's are shops. All shops want to sell, they want to make it easy to sell. The U.K. Is a wealthy country with upwards of 60-70million "customers". If you do t want to sell to us we will make it our selves. If you don't want to buy from us we won't buy from you a again , make it ourselves.

Kymmy 21-02-2016 19:51
R
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tweedle (Post 35823103)
My wife runs her company that exists exclusively due to buying from the US, Japan, China. You're going to have to explain what your import problems are? Because we may be able to help you.

What is the product you're having problems importing? An do not tell me about the cost of shipping to the UK LOL. If it's built in Japan shipping to UK is no more than shipping to France, America, Brazil ect.

Unless of course you own Landrover or any other massive UK based manufacturer I do not see your issue?

But silliness aside, you're saying what YOU say is fact and what anyone posting about leaving Europe says is nonsense?
Never said import product (yet another of your assumptions) instead it's a service industry associated with Motorsport (or do you have a distant sister/cousin twice removed in that trade as well???)

I never said anything but my opinion which you seem to try to gloss over. Yet again someone in the leave camp trying to put words in everyone else's mouth.

As for Norway in which you queried in another format just read http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...osts-thinktank for one thought on if we follow them.

So Mr Twaddle try accepting that your We Must Leave rhetoric is quite simplistic and there is another side as well as a middle for this discussion otherwise we wouldn't even need a referendum. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

---------- Post added at 19:51 ---------- Previous post was at 19:45 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35823105)
Untrue.

Norway's political leaders willingly signed up to conditions that were barely a step removed from the conditions of EU membership because they fully intended to make Norway a full member of the EU. Inconveniently, the Norwegian people then rejected the prospect of EU membership in a referendum. Norway is therefore left, thanks entirely to the high-handed actions of its politicians, with a deal that saddles them with many of the obligations of membership, and few of the privileges.

It is a fallacy to assume the UK's relationship with the EU, post secession, will look anything like Norway's.
Not what they said on BBC news the other week.. But that's the point of these discussions as to what do you believe and from where.

The leave candidates portray a horror story of mass migration and no control... Yet the Stay campaign throws in security and cost spiralling. Even the main media outlets contradict each other. What can we believe and what do we ignore?

tweedle 21-02-2016 19:53
Re: R
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35823112)
Never said import product (yet another of your assumptions) instead it's a service industry associated with Motorsport (or do you have a distant sister/cousin twice removed in that trade as well???)

I never said anything but my opinion which you seem to try to gloss over. Yet again someone in the leave camp trying to put words in everyone else's mouth.

As for Norway in which you queried in another format just read http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...osts-thinktank for one thought on if we follow them.

So Mr Twaddle try accepting that your We Must Leave retoric is quite simplistic and there is another side as well as a middle for this discussion otherwise we wouldn't even need a referendum. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

---------- Post added at 19:51 ---------- Previous post was at 19:45 ----------



Not what they said on BBC news the other week.. But that's the point of these discussions as to what do you believe and from where.

The leave candidates portray a horror story of mass migration and no control... Yet the Stay campaign throws in security and cost spiralling. Even the main media outlets contradict each other. What can we believe and what do we ignore?
The BBC is extremely pro Europe, by the way you spelt Rhetoric incorrectly. How embarrassing lol.

Kymmy 21-02-2016 19:59
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
If all you can moan about is spelling when I'm typing on a tablet then gawd help the "Leave Europe" campaign

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

...but please continue as to why we should leave.

tweedle 21-02-2016 20:02
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35823117)
If all you can moan about is spelling when I'm typing on a tablet then gawd help the "Leave Europe" campaign

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Sorry Mr Dymmy, nice use of emotes to punctuate your posts though. It gives them a very professional an mature feel.

Kymmy 21-02-2016 20:08
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tweedle (Post 35823118)
Sorry Mr Dymmy, nice use of emotes to punctuate your posts though. It gives them a very professional an mature feel.
Only Mr in this house is the dog... Can he vote as well... PMSL

Seriously though all you've said is that we should leave.. Why do you feel that way and what benefits and/or detriments will there be if we leave or stay?

tweedle 21-02-2016 20:13
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
I'm giving my opinion, that's all. Stop trying to play dictator an accept differing opinions. Now get back to your PMSL and over use of Emots. They show how strong your argument is.

Kymmy 21-02-2016 20:22
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
I haven't though argued to stay or leave.. As with probably 75% of the voters I'm middle of the fence :) - smiley to make you happy..

All I've put forward is stuff I've heard that contradicts a lot of what the leave or stay people have said, hence I asked for your viewpoint as you seem firmly in the leave camp. The question though is an open one as many have definitively stated we should leave or stay so why?

tweedle 21-02-2016 20:25
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35823129)
I haven't though argued to stay or leave.. As with probably 75% of the voters I'm middle of the fence :) - smiley to make you happy..

All I've put forward is stuff I've heard that contradicts a lot of what the leave or stay people have said, hence I asked for your viewpoint as you seem firmly in the leave camp. The question though is an open one as many have definitively stated we should leave or stay so why?
I'm getting the feeling you're like 50 or so an confused, do your research to the best of your ability an try an make as informed an opinion as you can and vote accordingly. Or in other words GROW A SET OF BALLS an put some effort in.

You can't expect someone to hold your hand forever.

Kymmy 21-02-2016 20:37
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Not that I'd want a set of balls......

Twice I've asked for your opinion on why we should leave especially with your forceful viewpoint in previous posts that we should leave and each time you've instead commented on spelling, my usage of emoticons, my age or growing a set of balls.

So you know you want the UK to leave but you don't know why or you don't want to say?

tweedle 21-02-2016 20:43
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35823135)
Not that I'd want a set of balls......

Twice I've asked for your opinion on why we should leave especially with your forceful viewpoint in previous posts that we should leave and each time you've instead commented on spelling or my usage of emoticons.

So you know you want the UK to leave but you don't know why or you don't want to say?

I know how I will vote an why I will vote that way. You still haven't explained the difficultys in buying from Japan or the USA? Which you say Britain will encounter if it leaves the EU. So back up your statement.


You clearly do not understand the KISS method of life,

---------- Post added at 20:43 ---------- Previous post was at 20:39 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35823101)
Try buying from the states, or from Japan then you'll understand that it isn't the "what if's" that you've ignored from others which have posted in many posts but actual facts.

We only get free trade benefits as part of the EU, if we're not part then we do not get the benefits and we won't get an agreement unless we capitulate.

The only country outside of the EU yet in the EAA and EFTA is norway and they had to agree to abide by a lot of EU directives to get there.. Also the red tape that people complain about when dealing with the EU will still be there if we trade with them from outside.

I'm not saying we stay in or come out but for gawd sake take off your blinkers and read the posts :banghead:

Explain this post please. As you think those that want to leave are "blinkered"

Kymmy 21-02-2016 20:51
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
I never said that there was a problem buying from either country. Try rereading the days posts before it for the context as to why I mentioned both countries.

Hugh 21-02-2016 20:58
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tweedle (Post 35823115)
The BBC is extremely pro Europe, by the way you spelt Rhetoric incorrectly. How embarrassing lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tweedle (Post 35823118)
Sorry Mr Dymmy, nice use of emotes to punctuate your posts though. It gives them a very professional an mature feel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tweedle (Post 35823136)
I know how I will vote an why I will vote that way. You still haven't explained the difficultys in buying from Japan or the USA? Which you say Britain will encounter if it leaves the EU. So back up your statement.


You clearly do not understand the KISS method of life,

---------- Post added at 20:43 ---------- Previous post was at 20:39 ----------




Explain this post please. As you think those that want to leave are "blinkered"
Handy hint - if you are going to criticise another poster's spelling mistakes, it might be useful if you don't consistently spell 'and' wrong (putting 'an' instead), and get 'difficulties' wrong... ;)

tweedle 21-02-2016 20:58
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35823101)
Try buying from the states, or from Japan then you'll understand that it isn't the "what if's" that you've ignored from others which have posted in many posts but actual facts.

We only get free trade benefits as part of the EU, if we're not part then we do not get the benefits and we won't get an agreement unless we capitulate.

The only country outside of the EU yet in the EAA and EFTA is norway and they had to agree to abide by a lot of EU directives to get there.. Also the red tape that people complain about when dealing with the EU will still be there if we trade with them from outside.

I'm not saying we stay in or come out but for gawd sake take off your blinkers and read the posts :banghead:

Can we see these ACTUAL FACTS, please.

TheDaddy 21-02-2016 21:08
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35823101)
Try buying from the states, or from Japan then you'll understand that it isn't the "what if's" that you've ignored from others which have posted in many posts but actual facts.

We only get free trade benefits as part of the EU, if we're not part then we do not get the benefits and we won't get an agreement unless we capitulate.

The only country outside of the EU yet in the EAA and EFTA is norway and they had to agree to abide by a lot of EU directives to get there.. Also the red tape that people complain about when dealing with the EU will still be there if we trade with them from outside.

I'm not saying we stay in or come out but for gawd sake take off your blinkers and read the posts :banghead:
Pretty much all directives, without having any say at all in them, even being out voted every time is better than not even being asked an opinion at all and they have to pay 80% of their eu contributions for the privilege

---------- Post added at 21:08 ---------- Previous post was at 21:07 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hom3r (Post 35823060)
That what have said all along, we need to be told pros and cons.
And something else you've said all along is leaving the EU is the same as leaving the echr but it isn't they are irrelevant of each other

Kymmy 21-02-2016 21:08
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tweedle (Post 35823144)


Can we see these ACTUAL FACTS, please.
Your not showing me yours so you can't see mine..

It seems your only in this thread, the Corbyn thread and a few other threads to troll..

tweedle 21-02-2016 21:11
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35823101)
Try buying from the states, or from Japan then you'll understand that it isn't the "what if's" that you've ignored from others which have posted in many posts but actual facts.

We only get free trade benefits as part of the EU, if we're not part then we do not get the benefits and we won't get an agreement unless we capitulate.

The only country outside of the EU yet in the EAA and EFTA is norway and they had to agree to abide by a lot of EU directives to get there.. Also the red tape that people complain about when dealing with the EU will still be there if we trade with them from outside.

I'm not saying we stay in or come out but for gawd sake take off your blinkers and read the posts :banghead:

How much of this statement can you back up with educated facts? To the loyal members of this forum?

Kymmy 21-02-2016 21:26
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tweedle (Post 35823152)
How much of this statement can you back up with educated facts? To the loyal members of this forum?
If they want to know they can ask though most fully understand it. In your case I though have rules against playing with the trolls.

tweedle 21-02-2016 21:30
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35823101)
Try buying from the states, or from Japan then you'll understand that it isn't the "what if's" that you've ignored from others which have posted in many posts but actual facts.

We only get free trade benefits as part of the EU, if we're not part then we do not get the benefits and we won't get an agreement unless we capitulate.

The only country outside of the EU yet in the EAA and EFTA is norway and they had to agree to abide by a lot of EU directives to get there.. Also the red tape that people complain about when dealing with the EU will still be there if we trade with them from outside.

I'm not saying we stay in or come out but for gawd sake take off your blinkers and read the posts :banghead:
So you cannot back up anything in the above comment, to put it in a way you will understand .....


PMSL ;):D:shocked::D

ianch99 21-02-2016 21:34
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Isn't it about now we get the "bickering chidren" post? ;)

tweedle 21-02-2016 21:35
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35823163)
Isn't it about now we get the "bickering chidren" post? ;)
I think you just made it .

Kymmy 21-02-2016 21:42
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tweedle (Post 35823160)
So you cannot back up anything in the above comment, to put it in a way you will understand .....


PMSL ;):D:shocked::D
After your attack earlier on another member I'm gonna refrain from feeding the troll

Quote:
Originally Posted by tweedle (Post 35823096)
You just hate Britain, you're long term unemployed through laziness not need. An you HATE your country. Mostly due to envy and hate, you want everyone to have nothing because you cannot be arsed to provide yourself with nice things. Although RT may have a job for you.

ianch99 21-02-2016 21:44
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35823168)
After your attack earlier on another member I'm gonna refrain from feeding the troll
:tu:

tweedle 21-02-2016 21:44
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35823101)
Try buying from the states, or from Japan then you'll understand that it isn't the "what if's" that you've ignored from others which have posted in many posts but actual facts.

We only get free trade benefits as part of the EU, if we're not part then we do not get the benefits and we won't get an agreement unless we capitulate.

The only country outside of the EU yet in the EAA and EFTA is norway and they had to agree to abide by a lot of EU directives to get there.. Also the red tape that people complain about when dealing with the EU will still be there if we trade with them from outside.

I'm not saying we stay in or come out but for gawd sake take off your blinkers and read the posts :banghead:

I notice in this post you made earlier you refer to and I quote " actual facts" could you please show us what the facts you are referring to are? Thanks in advance.

ianch99 21-02-2016 21:50
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2016/02/12.jpg

Kymmy 21-02-2016 21:54
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35823173)
Yeah a troll crying under the bridge because no one is taking any notice of him.:D

tweedle 21-02-2016 21:55
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35823034)
But that will hurt us with free trade..

Now where's the SWINGS & ROUNDABOUTS emoticon when you need one.

My main worry about leaving will be being forced back in recession and also how leaving will effect my work. Where as I worry about staying and having now a red card system that could be used very much against us as well as Europe dragging us down when the true cost of the migrant disaster hits...

What makes you think we will and I quote " be forced back in to recession" if we leave the EU?

Stephen 21-02-2016 21:55
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
OK enough with the bickering and insults.

Hugh 21-02-2016 22:00
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Some interesting views from independent academic research.

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/uk-trade-and-th...eaving-the-eu/ [quote]

https://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default...jan14-8285.pdf

Kymmy 21-02-2016 22:07
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35823182)
Not read the PDF yet (in bed on a small tablet) but the first article is quite good. Read a few things by him in the past that have been reasonably accurate in their predictions. Shame he's not giving away his predictions this time but instead giving all sides.

Ramrod 21-02-2016 22:33
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35823129)
I haven't though argued to stay or leave.. As with probably 75% of the voters I'm middle of the fence :)
That's at least the second time you've said that but you always seem to be arguing in favour of staying or prophesying doom if we leave :confused:

Kymmy 21-02-2016 22:59
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 35823189)
That's at least the second time you've said that but you always seem to be arguing in favour of staying or prophesying doom if we leave :confused:
Nope, just trying to be devil's advocate to the majority on here who scream "leave" yet offer no reasons as to why.

I've even argued against Cameron's jungle invasion and Smith's security issues as well as import duty and EU asylum controls.

Not exactly taking any side....yet ;) :p: but if those with a specific choice can explain why then I might just settle in one camp..

Gavin78 22-02-2016 00:30
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
I'm voting out simple, stuff the facts I don't care. the EU doesn't actually give a damn about the UK they are just make us look like a laughing stock.

The EU reminds me of the con artists at fair grounds trying to suck you in to throw the hoop over the square to win the £50 prize knowing that the square is way too big for the the hoop.

Just look at the Euro Vision they all look after each other can you imagine the conversations behind closed doors of the other member states talking about the UK and Cameron.

Matth 22-02-2016 00:55
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
BoJo's nailed his colours to the mast, at last... is he the big beast that the out campaign needs?

As for the whole debate, this sums it up nicely...
https://youtu.be/GiPe1OiKQuk

Damien 22-02-2016 09:01
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Boris has single handled managed to causing a big drop in the pound: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...rexit-campaign

So it's no small thing he has joined the Out campaign.

Ignitionnet 22-02-2016 09:06
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35823101)
The only country outside of the EU yet in the EAA and EFTA is norway and they had to agree to abide by a lot of EU directives to get there..
Someone needs to tell Iceland and Lichtenstein they aren't in the EFTA, and needs to tell the EFTA that they aren't by default in the EEA even though it was built to combine EEC and EFTA if this is the case.

The customs union doesn't include the EFTA nations but does include Turkey, San Marino, Monaco and Andorra. These guys have free trade with the EU at the cost of not having it with nations outside of the EU.

Obviously nations that want to sell to the customs union would have to comply with EU regulations with regards to the products you sell them. Just as to sell to the USA you'd have to comply with their regulations as far as the products you send them go.

The cool part is that that the ~80% of UK companies that do not export to the EU wouldn't have to comply with EU regulations. They don't have to spend their money trying to keep up with much larger companies that can afford compliance departments. Those who do sell only have to ensure the products they are selling comply, not that their entire methods of business do.

We aren't Iceland or Lichtenstein. We aren't Norway and wouldn't be consciously entering into a deal with the intent of minimising transition to full EU membership.

---------- Post added at 09:06 ---------- Previous post was at 09:06 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35823217)
Boris has single handled managed to causing a big drop in the pound: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...rexit-campaign

So it's no small thing he has joined the Out campaign.
May help our exports, and will certainly help my on-call allowance which is paid in US Dollars, a bit :)

Hugh 22-02-2016 09:21
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Considering we imported £35 billion more than we exported in 2015, I think the potential increase in imports costs may outweigh your increase in on-call allowance... ;)

Damien 22-02-2016 09:25
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Zac Goldsmith, London mayoral candidate, has backed the Leave campaign: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-35625097

You have to wonder why he bothered running for Mayor at all. He has apparently been rather withdrawn in the race so far, avoiding doing many campaign events, and now he is backing leaving the EU in one of the most pro-EU parts of the country. EU Citizens can vote for Mayor as well.

Osem 22-02-2016 10:27
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35823222)
Zac Goldsmith, London mayoral candidate, has backed the Leave campaign: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-35625097

You have to wonder why he bothered running for Mayor at all. He has apparently been rather withdrawn in the race so far, avoiding doing many campaign events, and now he is backing leaving the EU in one of the most pro-EU parts of the country. EU Citizens can vote for Mayor as well.
Maybe he's just honest and putting his convictions above his career. :shrug:

Damien 22-02-2016 10:39
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35823226)
Maybe he's just honest and putting his convictions above his career. :shrug:
Don't run for London Mayor then. There were probably other Tories who could have stood rather than someone who doesn't seem to like campaigning for it and who supports positions that aren't popular in the city he tends to run. The City of London largely supports the European Union, the tech-start ups want to remain and there are considerable amounts of Europeans in the city too.

heero_yuy 22-02-2016 11:00
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
WHAT PM SAID: “What’s best for Britain is being in a reformed EU. We’ve now got a better deal.”

IS IT TRUE? What deal? A step in the right direction maybe, but even pro-EU Tory MPs admit there was little in it. France’s President Hollande was even more damning: “Just because it lasted a long time doesn’t mean much happened.”
Read more of the critique of Cameron's performance on the Andrew Marr show on Sunday.

Osem 22-02-2016 11:57
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35823228)
Don't run for London Mayor then. There were probably other Tories who could have stood rather than someone who doesn't seem to like campaigning for it and who supports positions that aren't popular in the city he tends to run. The City of London largely supports the European Union, the tech-start ups want to remain and there are considerable amounts of Europeans in the city too.
Lots of City institutions are very concerned about French and German efforts to undermine the financial sector and impose transaction taxes etc. which will make London less competitive.

It's up to him to decide what he stands for isn't it and presumably for those who selected him to have thought about it. If it turns out he's simply calculated wrongly that it'll boost his popularity then that's his tough luck. On the other hand, if he's only now decided (on the basis of the deal Cameron has only just secured) to get out that's fair enough by me. I don't see why any prospective Mayor of London shouldn't be entitled to their own view on this.

Damien 22-02-2016 12:19
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35823237)
Lots of City institutions are very concerned about French and German efforts to undermine the financial sector and impose transaction taxes etc. which will make London less competitive.

It's up to him to decide what he stands for isn't it and presumably for those who selected him to have thought about it. If it turns out he's simply calculated wrongly that it'll boost his popularity then that's his tough luck. On the other hand, if he's only now decided (on the basis of the deal Cameron has only just secured) to get out that's fair enough by me. I don't see why any prospective Mayor of London shouldn't be entitled to their own view on this.
I didn't say he wasn't entitled to this own view. It's just that it's a 'brave' - in the Yes Minister sense - thing for him to do. Much like Corbyn is entitled to believe in what he has said - doesn't mean it's political wise.

Osem 22-02-2016 13:05
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Well yes, whether it's politically wise remains to be seen but in any event I much prefer people who behave with conviction* to those who cynically jump from one bandwagon to another according to what they feel suits their own interests best.

* whilst reserving the right to lambast them as appropriate where they're clearly delusional or just plain stupid... ;)

Ramrod 22-02-2016 13:54
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35823196)
Nope, just trying to be devil's advocate to the majority on here who scream "leave" yet offer no reasons as to why.
Boris gives a well written set of reasons here

ianch99 22-02-2016 14:05
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Why is the Johnson thing such a big deal? Given his role in national politics, the reaction seem disproportionate. He has always come across as a bit of clown ... What has Boris got on Cameron ;)

Kymmy 22-02-2016 14:10
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 35823254)
Boris gives a well written set of reasons here
Yep, but published 7+ hours after I asked.. Any more?

Osem 22-02-2016 14:18
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35823258)
Yep, but published 7+ hours after I asked.. Any more?
CF clearly reaches the parts other forums can't reach... :D

Damien 22-02-2016 14:21
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Good breakdown of three possible consequences of Brexit. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/70d0bfd8-d...#axzz40tQoBlqs

They do point out the absurdity of the same of the claims people make about free trade deals as if they're symmetrical and easy to set up. They're not.

Hugh 22-02-2016 14:32
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35823261)
Good breakdown of three possible consequences of Brexit. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/70d0bfd8-d...#axzz40tQoBlqs

They do point out the absurdity of the same of the claims people make about free trade deals as if they're symmetrical and easy to set up. They're not.
Really good article, I thought, with the pro & con of various scenarios.

The bit I found most interesting was
Quote:
Finally, to prevent disruption to the trade flows on which the British economy has come to depend, the country must negotiate agreements with the EU and with non-EU countries including the US, India, China, Japan and Australia. This would be a matter of urgency: in 2014 just over half Britain’s trade was with the EU, while sales to and from 60 other countries are governed by agreements struck with the bloc.
The challenge that the undecided (in which I include myself) is knowing the complexity and impact of re-negotiating these trade deals, as no one on either side really knows how difficult/beneficial these negotiations will be - Brexit supporters will see to minimise the difficulty of these, whilst the StayInners will exaggerate them, and the truth is, no one knows, as it's never been done on this scale before...

Osem 22-02-2016 14:40
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
I've an idea - why don't we ask the EU if we can suck it and see? :D

Uncharted waters as I said. No certainties v. the certainty we do have which is more of the same. :shrug:

Damien 22-02-2016 14:43
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35823263)
The challenge that the undecided (in which I include myself) is knowing the complexity and impact of re-negotiating these trade deals, as no one on either side really knows how difficult/beneficial these negotiations will be - Brexit supporters will see to minimise the difficulty of these, whilst the StayInners will exaggerate them, and the truth is, no one knows, as it's never been done on this scale before...
Yeah. I think we'll be able to renegotiate trade deals with this countries but it's the terms we'll get and the time it'll take that is the issue and nobody knows as you say. We won't have to worry about seeking protections for industries that aren't our concern, which is an advantage, but we'll have less clout in terms of out accessible market, which is a disadvantage.

I find it hard to believe there won't be at least a few years of turbulence though as we get seek to get these deals done, get a deal with the EU done and businesses are cautious about investment here whilst those issues are unresolved.

I saw someone mention earlier today that Greenland did a deal with China but it involved one industry, fishing, and it took three years.

Mr K 22-02-2016 15:37
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
tbh, I had time for Boris as a laughable clown 'not nasty Tory' sort of guy. He's now come out as the worst sort of politician, seeing which way the wind is blowing for his own benefit before deciding which side he's on. I guess the scenario he's hoping for is that the public don't actually do anything stupid like vote 'out'; a disgruntled Tory grassroots will then elect him and punish Osborne/Cameron, and he still have EU membership.

Be nice if the actual issues like free trade were debated; however it's just going be negative from both sides, and about personalities/back stabbing/which way the media barons decide how we should vote. I despair of our democracy sometimes.

ianch99 22-02-2016 20:09
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
I have just seen the intro for Channel 4 news and they had a clip of someone asking a couple of women from Liverpool (I think) and asking "What do you think of Boris Johnson's decision"?

"Boris who" they replied? :)

Also, when there was a vote on bombing Syria, the media were lampooning Corbyn for his cabinet's disunity. It is interesting that when Dave's cabinet does the same thing, this presents no problem ..

Hugh 22-02-2016 21:35
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
And if he didn't allow them the freedom to dissent, he would have been called a dictator...

Damien 22-02-2016 21:50
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
Also he wouldn't have been able to contain his party and any spilt would have been far worse. I think the difference between Cameron and Corbyn is that Cameron has proved himself to the extent that no one can really call into question his authority within the party. He has largely kept infighting to a minimum, managed to impose the whip where needed, and has only called for a free vote on issues of long-standing disagreement within the party such as gay marriage and Europe.

Corbyn finds his party in a permanent state of dissent and has been bounced into free votes though lack of authority. The Conservative party, even with the spilt, is largely behind Cameron. Most of the PLP hate Corbyn.

Arthurgray50@blu 22-02-2016 22:34
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 
I seriously think that if Cameron, had got a better deal. Then we would not be discussing this matter.

In or out of the EU, l still feel that we will still trade abroad. Its utter nonsense to suggest major companies will move abroad.

hey move aboard as it is cheaper to recruit staff. Now, isn't that what Britain is doing at the moment.

IF, we are out, then we can control our own borders. and we wont need to have Brussels, telling US, what we can or cannot do in our OWN country


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