Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Aren't you on Plusnet?

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Doesn't having the 2.4 at 40Mhz give you range issues?

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

okay here we go. I got through to India to start off with and was told that my area hadn't been enabled yet (which I already knew) and I asked for it early. I was told that she couldn't do it but as I had been with VM for 12 years I was entitled to a loyalty discount. I said I wasn't interested in a discount and wanted the upgrade pushed through early so she put me on hold and presumably put me through to retentions. The english person I spoke to said that she would put the code on my account for it but she didn't think it would actually go through until the area had been enabled. I explained to her that other peeps had rang up and it had been put through no probs and all they had to do was agree to another 1 year contract. She said that the only way peeps would have to sign up for another year is if there was an equipment change and that for 152mbits I would need a shub2. I said I was expecting that and it wouldn't be a problem. She has put the code for 152mbits on the account and tied it to the delivery of the shub2 which is coming Tuesday and when I get it activated it will pull the config for 152mbits.

Sooooooooo, here is the magic question because one of two things has happened. Is everything going to go as described above (which will make me as happy as Larry) or have I been screwed into having a shub2 which a I don't need with a 1 year contract? I hate to be a pesimist but given my prior experiences with VM I am going to go for option 2.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Sorry to see you had issues :( maybe those of us who already have the sh2 and they never mentioned a new contract to, haven't actually had to enter a new contract?

Not sure how VM's systems work, but maybe it doesn't let them change it if you don't have a sh2? Seems a bit stupid mind. When I called up the guy said he had issues putting it through cause I dont have a phone line? Made no sense to me mind.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

When i called retentions yesterday they said doing it early would mean a new contract, i already have the SH2.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Me neither, they either put the code on to make it work or they dont

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

little bit dubious about this. I apparently have 60meg fibre with the new gen 2 router, very rarely get speeds anywhere near this and I am central London based

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

From my expedience today earlier today I would say that VM sales and retention staff are all singing from different hymn sheets. Some appear up to speed, whilst others do not. It doesn't surprise me that your experience is different. It depends on who you get to speak to.

The first two people I spoke to said it was impossible to upgrade me whilst the third did it there and then. She said the fact that I had a SH2 had nothing to do with it. She could have done it with a SH1.

Yes, I did have to be re-contracted. The paperwork for that comes retrospectively. I also got an 18-month £5 loyalty discount. http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/35676678-post482.html

I wouldn't be pessimistic. If you did an availability search on your street using an address other than yours that also isn't connected to VM that will have shown whether 152 was available in your area. New customers are getting it whilst existing customers are having to wait unless they kick up a fuss.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

If you aren't doing a package upgrade, then the code can only be put on if the system says there is the capacity to do so.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

That's unfair on 120/12 VIP customers. Or have I misunderstood Ben?

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Yes still with Plusnet FTTC but this FTTC will go to my daughter now. I am using Virgin Media 152/12 for my own need now.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

I suppose those on VIP could upgrade to the latest version which would come with 152Mbit (and Talk Unlimited Extra)

But to be honest, the schedule is there for a reason - allowing everyone to upgrade early without any other change to their service would defeat the point of it.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Ben is on the point, there. His words are, of course, from the VM perspective and that's fair enough.

But the psychology of many a user is contrary to this and the pressure on VM will be enormous. But VM will at least gain contract commitments.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

if everyone was able to ring up last year and get the the speed doubling upgrade early why should this be any different? I am glad you chipped in though Ben because I wanted to know what your take was on it. I assured about 6 times that she put the code on the account so I guess I'll have to wait and see what happens Tuesday.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

I'm sure if Virgin just flicked a switch and millions of customers' speed went up, we'd all regret it, but how many are (realistically) calling in to get the upgrade early? If it becomes an issue, I'm sure Virgin will issue a warning to their operators not to upgrade people early.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Too late as it appear many customers are phoned in and get all upgrade to 152. Virgin Boss must be proud today!

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2014/03/72.png

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

I think our area has been done. The postcode check on the Vm website says we are ready for 152mb.

Here is a speedtest result since reading this.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2014/03/71.png

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Are you are assuming that VM have in some way "prepared" their networks specifically for the new speed tiers + removal of downstream STM. Is this really the case or are upgrades more reactive i.e. when problems arise in specific areas, these areas are band aided.

If it is the former, then making the products available to new and re-contracting existing customers will not be an issue, correct? Letting the non-contracting customers to phase in over time also makes sense so that any increase in network load can be reacted to in a progressive manner

---------- Post added at 01:05 ---------- Previous post was at 00:45 ----------

I have posted a question on the VM Support forum to get someone from support to look into why the ticket I was given for the utilisation slow downs is so old (18 months) - is the best approach or is there a better way?

All I have got so far are a collection of what in polite terms are "unhelpful" replies, my favourites being:
and

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

I think it's a bit of both. They've definitely been doing work on the network as a whole, even after the speed doubling, but whether that's enough for the more congested areas remains to be seen.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

first day of 152/12 activated:
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2014/03/69.png

second day:
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2014/03/70.png

Speed test just now:
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2014/03/35.png

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

The rules for the new tiers are the same this year as last time around - however it all depends if they are correctly followed or not as to whether it makes sense or not!

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

I notice you now have your signature as saying you are on 152/12

Technically you and I are on a supercharged 120/12. This may seem nitpicking but it does explain why upstream is still only 12Mb.

The kind lady who upgraded me did explain that 15Mb will appear in due course. At that point the connection will officially be 152 and 10:1.

This all seems pretty one-eyed to me.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

152Mbit has a 12Mbit upload i.e. it is only slightly changed from the 11.7 for 120Mbit

There are no announced plans to increase it to 15Mbit.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

I have been assuming that re-segmentation area by area has been the prep for removing STM and for the 152 upgrade. However, some areas getting the upgrade may not have been re-segmented. I may be wrong, but if your SH is using 8 channels then you are probably in an area with an upgraded network.

---------- Post added at 13:05 ---------- Previous post was at 13:01 ----------

Yup they allowed for overheads in the SH upstream config.

Nothing announced on 15Mb, but the CS lady, Lisa, was certain that it will be coming reasonably soon. This is not a Telfordism BTW.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

yes I am on 8 DS and 2 US, have been for a while now

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Maybe they are holding off on the 15 mb upstream until the move all the upstream on to 64QAM.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Cant imagine its worth the hassle of phoning to go from 120 to 152. If anything downgrading to 100mb shouldnt be noticable other than some money in your pocket.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Or maybe they are moving away from the 10:1 completely for the time being. None of the new tiers have that ratio, 50/3, 100/6 and 152/12.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

I got a loyalty discount of £5.00, (18 months) as part of the upgrade. I got my cake and ate it.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

I upgraded to 152Mb earlier today but looking in the Super Hub GUI I've noticed this:

SW upgrade Failed after download - Incompatible SW file

Does this mean that the config hasn't been sent properly? I've not noticed any boost in speed and Speedtest is reporting highs of around 98Mb - my usual speeds for Sunday afternoons.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

It usually means that your modem has received, a config file not keyed to your address and so an event has been generated.

EDIT: I should add that your modem receives everything that goes out on your segment and filters that which is addressed to you and bears your BPI+ security key. Config files are a special case because they can come down before BPI+ has been established.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Wrong. Before I was on 120/11 but now on 152/12.

The signature was correct on 152/12 as Virgin sold on up to 152/12. There is no plan for 15Meg upload in the next few years.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Well I have no idea where that has come from. It's not in any of the briefs or anywhere else.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Was she speaking out of turn, I wonder? Loose talk? She did sound like she knew what she was talking about.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

10:1 is bad enough, these new tiers are horrible

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

I can 100% promise you there has been no mention at any stage of a 15Mbit upload.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Has there been any mention of any upload speed faster than 12mb? Like 200/20 etc.

No harm in asking :p:

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Not as part of the upgrade and if VM have plans to launch a product like that at any stage, it hasn't been mentioned.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

222/22 would be nice ;) and get rid of upload traffic management

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Should have asked for a bigger slice lol

Bundle Charges
Broadband XXL (Up To 120mb) Loyalty Customer
Bundle Charges total£37.50
Promotional offer(s)
You'Re Receiving A Loyalty Discount It's For £9. If You Change Your Package You May Lose This Discount Which Will End 22-AUG-15
Promotional offer(s)CR £9.00
Your package total£28.50

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Mine is:

Bundle Charges
Broadband XXL (Up To 152mb) Loyalty Customer
Bundle Charges total£37.50
Promotional offer(s)
You'Re Receiving A Loyalty Discount It's For £9. If You Change Your Package You May Lose This Discount Which Will End 28-SEPT-15
Promotional offer(s)CR £9.00 plus discount of £5.00 (six months offer)
Your package total£23.50 (6 months) £28.50 (12 months)

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

No point whatsoever in upping to 152 while upload stays at 12 esp as I will be out of contract soon & having issues with Tivo - I wrongly assumed that the old system would hold, 120 is fine for downloading it's the up speed I want changing - I have a BT fibre cabinet 6 yards from my drive so have options ~

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Have both. FTTC and Cable.

I use download for cable only
I use fftc for upload only

job done! :D

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Hmmmm I will get you to give my other half a bell & you can convince her it's a good idea ;) (best of luck there)

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Decided to get mine upgraded early today and got a nice reduction in price too.

I was paying £47.49 for 120mb+phone line before because of all the recent price increases. Now i'm paying £35.99 for 152mb+phone line so £11.50 cheaper than before.

Speed test is giving 160/12.2 so nice and solid as usual.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

sweet, I hope mine goes through as planned when my shub2 arrives at some point today (hopefully)

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

All I am going to say is "holy **** it worked" and I have got it the best part of 9 months early. This makes up for being royally screwed when I got 100mbit.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2014/03/63.png

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

I got an early upgrade in E17.

1pm
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedt...2234425813.png

6pm

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedt...8236263668.png

Ignore the https speeds, my Microserver over RDP chokes with CPU usage. The http is a good indicator.

I also got an upgrade to Sky 80/20 (should be 60/15) from 40/10; that's kicking in soon for £20 a month. I'll team them on usenet, so great speeds regardless of congestion and superb reliability. Shame the old Microserver with Flexraid can't cope with the speeds though!

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Nice isn't it :D

I was one of the ones who thought it was an insignificant bump when announced but getting 20MB/s on downloads instead of 15 is much more noticeable than i thought it would be.

Just need better upload speeds now :)

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

yeah, at the end of the day it is a 33% increase for you so you are bound to notice it. I can remember in the old days when I got bumped from 3mbits to 10mbits and I thought that was stupidly fast. I know it sounds silly but as far as I am concerned the faster the better. Rather than leaving a download ticking along all day at 60k/sec (for example) I would rather have a fast enough connection that I can download it in 30 seconds so I know it is done and then leave my connection idle for the rest of the day. I haven't actually tried downloading anything yet but I am looking forward to tomorrow morning. I maxed out my torrents at 14.6MB/sec this morning.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Well I can't have a situation where you lot are faster than me so I dialed 150 and 5 mins & a modem reboot later are on 152 - No mention was made of any changes to contract so I'll see - Worth it I suppose just to annoy some members of the family who can't get fibre :angel:

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

I have just downloaded 3 torrents and it maxed out at 18.85MB/sec = sweeeeeeeeeeeeet

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

I thought virgin had blocked torrent sites?

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

really? If VM havent got anything better to do than sit there and block every single torrent site then there would be something seriously wrong. There are plenty of legit torrent sites which you can access no probs and you still get access to the ones they have blocked.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Sounds suspicious, VM investigation?

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

ive just blagged the free 152mb free early and its dropped my overall package price by £2.43 a month but i had to sign a new contract.

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedt...31307973219267

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

it's all good dude. I don't mind agreeing to a new 12 month contract because if we were going to switch to Infinity (etc) we would have done it by now.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

I'm sure it's been asked before but if you have a few months left on a contract and if you renew it does it add on or start again from 1 year (max)?

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Any time you go into a new contract with them it's starts fresh, it's not cumulative :)

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Thank you. :)

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Which department did you ring to get this deal?

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

I just called retentions (150), I got rid of unlimited calls as I never made any use of it (I have a good mobile package which covers it), they upgraded me to 152mb there and then, and I saved £15 a month in the process. I'm happy with that.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

That is a good question because when you renew your mobile contract the new contract gets added to the old one. So if you get an early upgrade 3 months in advance of your contract finishing, your new contract starts in 3 months time when the old one finishes.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Luckily my mobile isn't with Virgin.

Just paid the line rental saver off as well so will be now saving £20.57 a month.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

I got an early upgrade to 152Mbps, also upgraded to Sky FTTC 80/20 and getting their maximum for £20 a month

Just ran a usenet download and achieved this as a peak

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2014/03/58.png

222Mbits, cannot believe we can now get this speed in our homes.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

have you got some sort ether channel going on?

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

What's an ether channel?

I've just got a Dual WAN router (Cisco) and configured the rules so that a usenet server tunnels over Virgin and Sky. I setup this up within the router via Port based rules.

I had to use NZBGet to achieve the speed though, SabNZBD runs too slow on my Microserver. Can only get 120mbit on though Sab.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

it is basically the same thing. Ether channel is when you tell the router to bond a specific amount of ports so that three 100mbit ports to the same destination are bonded and shown as one 300mbit line. It sounds like you have done the same thing with your wan connections and it certainly looks sweet. All hail Cisco :nworthy:

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Ah I see. It's not that fancy, it's not bonding. The only area the connection teaming works on is on usenet as I can specify that say port 5859 will go over WAN 1 and port 4849 will go over WAN 2.

The TP Link and Draytek Routers also do it. I used to have the Draytek 2920, great Router but WAN-LAN throughput was only 120Mbps.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

k i understand now. It isn't load balancing between the two connections, it is simply dividing the traffic between the two and because you have been downloading so many individual files you have been able to max out your connection. Still sweet though.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Dumped Sky and upgraded my M pack to M+ and automatically got the increase to 152 meg with a 12 month contract that I do not mind about seeing as I have no plans to leave VM internet anyway

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Upgrade due here between July and September now was July and December

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

My agreement contract have arrive in the post today. This is my proof letter of my 152Meg service with virgin media which I comeback to virgin media last Friday 28th February and took 152Meg offer.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2014/03/45.jpg

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

If you are telling the truth Telford then that is a ridiculously good deal. Similar to what i got getting the bump to 152mb but i have to pay line rental for the phone so £35.99 per month in total.

I am struggling to understand how a customer who has disconnected their services, went to another provider then went back to the old provider a few weeks later can get a loyalty discount though.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

I've always considered them to be exactly the opposite. They are DISloyalty discounts.

It's about time that real loyalty discounts were applied to all customers with continuous custom. Say £5 for 5 years continuous custom, £10 for 10 and £15 for 15......

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

I just been on the phone ask Virgin Media if I could get a discount £5 off for 18 month the same with £9 discount loyalty for 18 months if I willing to agree to 18 months contract with the same price at £23.50 for 18 months. They spoken to a manager about this and the manager had accepted. A letter will be sent in the post in the next couple of days. Getting a nice £14 total discount off for 18 months.


Nice one Virgin Media :)

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

So how do you manage to get any discount then?
Customer for donkey's years, not even a thankyou after nearly 15 years as a cable customer (full time).

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

:erm::erm:My secret!

---------- Post added at 16:33 ---------- Previous post was at 16:21 ----------

Oh hang on abit.....

BT had told me that I can get 300Mbps BT Infinity now:


https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2014/03/44.jpg

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Some things never change :)

No you can't, as you well know given you are on the BT Wholesale checker on a regular basis, already have FTTC hence not in a native FTTP area, and are not in an area announced for FTTP on demand.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2014/03/56.png

---------- Post added at 16:55 ---------- Previous post was at 16:47 ----------

The problem there is that EtherChannel / LACP only works on layer 2 switched links, it takes a number of layer 2 links and has them use the same MAC address, so no good for balancing Internet connections as the individual links have different IP addresses, taken from my own router:

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2014/03/57.png

So I'm running 2 x layer 3 links. The only way they can be bonded is either by using pair bonding at the VDSL layer, obviously not possible if one link is cable, or by using MultiLink PPP, or a P2P VPN to bond the links at a higher level, both of which require the participation of a device or devices at the remote side of the links.

The links are load balanced using per-connection balancing. The router looks at which of the 2 links is most heavily loaded and sends the connection out of the other one.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Yes I check on BT Infinity as it say it only support FTTC only (79/9 with 19.9) stupid email from BT say I can get 300Mbps now.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Are you a time traveller or just a liar?

Your previous post in this very thread, only a few posts above, suggests you already have this letter in your hands!!

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Yes I have a letter in my hands but that old one now. I am now with 18 months contract for just £23.50 for 18 months with £14 discount off for 18 months as the manager had applied it and rebooted my superhub at 152 Meg reset.

U can see my live graph superhub reset itself after 4pm http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/s...68777624e.html

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Yes but on his letter the £5 discount is only for 6 months, he's somehow managed to get them to apply it for 18 months the same as his other loyalty discount.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Let's veer this thread away from discussing a single poster's deal...

How is everyone finding their service? Speeds stable?

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Perfectly. 160/12.4 ish all day and night long. My area has never had any congestion issues and always had max speeds though.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

I've noticed it's not been as stable as it was over the weekend, coincidence or a lot more people round here are on 152meg now

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Yup - stable and consistent 60/3.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Just supercharged from 20/1 to 50/3 today. Looks stable, achieving the maxima throughout the house wirelessly via Superhub 2.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2014/03/50.png

I get this 24/7. File download tests have maxed at 20MB second with 1Gb downloading in 51.5 secs.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Why have you posted a file download speed test site with no servers in the UK?

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Good to see people doing well. Obviously the network upgrades up to 12 or perhaps even more downstreams and the 2 x 64QAM upstreams, with more coming soon as non-compliant kit is fixed to work with dual-mode upstream, will be important delivering the all-tier uplifts.

Maybe Superhub 3 people will be seeing things like this:

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2014/03/40.jpg

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2014/03/41.jpg

Lots of downstreams, a legacy 3.2MHz 16QAM upstream, a mixed-mode 16/64QAM 3.2MHz upstream and 2 x 6.4MHz 16QAM all available for bonding, and it all helps.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

My brand new 2 gigabit lan network card (ready for virgin media 1Gbps broadband)

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2014/03/39.jpg

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

I've decided not to feed trolls today.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

It's just something he saw on the overclockers.co.uk forum yesterday, under his username of bulldog147

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Stable speeds here my Sam box also shows 152+ stable, I'm thinking I should let 'Sam Knows' about the upgrade :)

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

:D

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2014/03/49.png

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

well said.

---------- Post added at 12:58 ---------- Previous post was at 12:56 ----------

Has anyone got upgraded to 100Mbps down yet? If so, what's their upload speed? Just curious.

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

It'll be 6Mbit

Re: Virgin Media 150Mb Coming 2014
 

Interesting, how come it won't be 10:1 ratio?