Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

I know exactly where you are coming from!

I was actually looking for that program that I spoke about ages ago in this thread, about how close we came to losing the Falklands war, but I couldn't find it on line. But I found the above links instead.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Even being ex-RAF I'm first to admit that the navy alone could do more against the Argentines with a couple of subs off the coast and a number of tomahawks than the navy of the early '80s

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Hey come on now Kymmy, are you feeling ok? It's just not done for one of the armed forces to praise another ;)

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Not true - we in the RAF were often heard to say that the Pongos weren't as unintelligent as everyone thought, and that the Navy personnel weren't all strange.....

But back on topic - strangely enough, there is an article in today's Times (behind a paywall)

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

I applied for both Navy and RAF at the same time (weapons tech RAF and artificer Navy) the RAF offer came through first..

I rarely look at the people but instead what they're shooting or threatening to shoot at each other.

In the falklands conflict the Argentines pulled back most of their fast jets to protect the mainland against our jets, these days a couple of subs off the coast could be even more threatening and damaging with conventional weapons.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Did you see the program the other day about the Vulcan mission to bomb the runway at Stanley?

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Vulcans???? I thought Spock was long dead.... :D

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

He was resurrected in the third Movie - The Search For Credibility....

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

That doesn't sound very credible.... :D

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Falklands Most Daring Raid, I downloaded and watched it last night..

Described as a Dam busters for the eighties type mission.. made even more similar by them dropping the same type of 1000 LB bombs the Lancaster would ordinarily carry.

I like how everyone always has a go at the French for supplying the Exocet, yet the guys on this mission seemed more concerned with the British built Tigercat missile system they'd have to go up against.

Certainly was a gutsy, if desperate mission though.. 11 tankers for 1 antiquated plane (which still might not have enough fuel to succeed) required a larger set of stones than I think any of those currently running things have.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

I had exactly the same thought when I watched it.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

I don't think the Vulcans would ever have been bothered by the exocet anti-ship missile :rolleyes:

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

No, but our Harriers might

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Yet the program wasn't about the harriers..

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

I was thinking outside the box Kymmy

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

I doubt the Vulcan would have been bothered either, but then that wasn't the point i was making :dozey:

The point I was trying to make (perhaps a little poorly) was that the French weren't the only folk selling weapons systems to the Argentines, but the only folk to be singled out for it, time and again..

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

I would have been more concerned about the Roland systems that the argentines had than the subsonic tigercats..

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Oh Hell! The Techno Geeks have taken over..:D

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

You know, I *almost* made an electro-pop reference earlier this morning, but then I remembered post #522 :dozey: :p:

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

That's the problem.Half the time it's a fellow MOD whose taken things off topic.;)

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

:shocking:oops::tiptoe:

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

They weren't mentioned on the program though. So they weren't even considered.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Well Dauntless is off to the falklands

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17609577

I wish all that sail on her a good voyage :clap:

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

That is one impressive ship. I watched one of her class (may have been Dauntless herself, not sure, was too far away) doing sea trials in the firth of Clyde a few summers back. Plus, having at one time commuted to work along the Clydeside Expressway I watched two of the class being built at the Govan yard. It's nice to see the finished vessel fully crewed and under her own steam.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

How long before Argentina start whinging again :D

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Again? They haven't stopped, it's just everyone else has got bored listening.

Apparently Cristina Kirchner personally invited all the heads of state and ambassadors of South America to witness her latest rant on Monday. None of them turned up. :D

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

HA ,the Argies didn't see that comming ......literally :D

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

That's quality :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

No defence expert here but does anyone else think the ship looks a tad emasculated without any really big guns? I suppose the idea is that nothing will ever get close enough to necessitate such weapons.....

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

I know what you mean. But I think it's a case of what you can't see.

Also these ships use stealth, and I presume big guns on deck would stop the stealth technology working properly.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

The "big gun" on HMS Dauntless is rather more capable than those of WW2 vintage, which I guess are the sort of classic battleship configurations you have in mind. And besides, WW2 ships didn't have guided missiles and systems for firing them from either the ship or from an embarked Lynx helicopter.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

The 4.5incher is the big gun :) Just as it was on the Type 42

Primary role of our destroyers is the air defence capability of the carrier groups we don't currently have.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Also, naval battles (of which there have been precious few since WW2) are no longer conducted by lines of opposing battleships lobbing shells at each other. The aircraft carrier, not the battleship, is the capital ship of a modern blue-water navy and a major international naval confrontation would look more like the Battle of Midway than the Battle of Jutland.

In any case, there are no battleships left anywhere in the world since USS Iowa and USS Wisconsin were retired. HMS Dauntless is an air defence destroyer and in that role, guided missiles designed to take down aeroplanes are the primary armament. Incidentally, she has the capability to down every military warplane in the whole of Latin America, if that helps shed a little light on why the Argentines are so peeved.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

IIRC the bigger guns were also used to bombard defensive positions onshore but I guess that's another role this ship isn't designed to fulfill. Given all the defence cuts I do wonder about the very specialised roles ships like these were intended for and I do hope we're not faced with a situation in which we have too many eggs in this one basket whilst others (e.g. carrier capability) are empty.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

The lead time on projects like this is so long, there was never any question of it being either carriers or destroyers. However, if you are going to have fleet carriers you need to have escort vessels to defend them, something the Daring class destroyers should be well suited to.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Let's hope the carriers actually materialise then.. ;)

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong. But I was under the impression that two of them are being built at the moment.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

It's never to late to cancel or postpone

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Apparently we are building 2 new carriers the first launched in 2016 ....but it will be mothballed because we won't have any planes to take off and land on it ,the second will be ready by 2020 when the first lot of planes will be delivered .Basically the whole affair is an absolute shambles

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/ma...strike-fighter

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Okay. Stupid question time...

According to wiki the Dauntless has a 48 missile array. Does that mean they have loads more below deck, or do they only carry 48? If the latter, how do they shoot down every military warplane in Latin America with just 48 missiles?

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Even if they are half built?

---------- Post added at 10:07 ---------- Previous post was at 10:04 ----------

I'm sure Kymmy will be able to explain this better, and correct me if I'm wrong. But the way I understand it is that it can in theory launch up to 48 missiles at the same time. And that it has plenty more in the stores.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Yep

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Yep, just look at the 2nd one, already slated to be partially built and mothballed which means it might never be used and could be sold in 20+ years time without being fully outfitted

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

i think that refers to the amount of missiles it can launch in one salvo ,there should be many more below decks waiting to be used .

I say should because this article suggests that the navy is a bit stingy when allocating missile quantities ,at least for the subs so the chances are that Dauntless is only carrying enough for one salvo :rolleyes:

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

The 48 is the cells loaded at any one time.. this could be a combination of Aster 15 or 30 missiles.

8 of these can be launched every 10 seconds so probably as fast as they can designate targets they can launch.

You also have to remember that the only way of attacking the ship is either via old subs or via exocet. There's only a couple of dozen (if all are flyable which reports suggest they're not) of planes capable of launching the exocet (phlanx(if fitted) or aster15 should deal with them if launched) and although they launch below the horizon they have to pop-up to aquire, it's not the missile system which they will be susceptible to but more than likely the Dauntless in that instance will be used as a targetting system for the typhoons to take out. Especially as the subsonic aircraft won't be able to make it back to base before a typhoon shoves a AMRAAM up it's backside..

Daunless is just part of the system and not the only part with teeth

---------- Post added at 10:25 ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 ----------

Lets for example say that Argentine has just lost a quarter of it's aircraft without getting close.. Dauntless has now exhuasted the cell launcher.. Argies wouldn't know and probably wouldn't let any more aircraft near the ship long before the cell is exhausted ;)

Even then as I said above daultless makes a good command centre for the typhoons from the falklands to provide cover..

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

That would be a complete waste of money :mad:

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

The problem is that departments like the MOD work on long term budgets .The carriers in question where commisioned under the labour government ,now we have a new government with a different set of financial obligations .If the project has cost £1billion up to now(example) with £2billion left to spend for completion it rapidly becomes clear that scrapping the whole project will save a lot of money especially when operating costs are taken into account.Yes they have wasted £1billion but saved 2+ billion over a number of years which is all they are interested in .

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

As has been seen many times in the past.

---------- Post added at 13:04 ---------- Previous post was at 13:02 ----------

Correct and the same problems would apply to any massively expensive long term project whether military or otherwise. It can just boil down to the lesser of two evils.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Agreed...unless the next goverment decides that we need carriers again.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

As I understand it the current plan is that the first of the new carriers is due to enter service in 2016 with only a helicopter capability. This is because, despite being new, it isn't suitable for the aircraft the UK wants to buy for the role. It was cheaper to build the ship than cancel it. The second ship will enter service in 2020 at which point the first will be mothballed and/or sold unless there's a change of mind within HMG.

http://seawavesmagazine.blogspot.co....ay-not-be.html

The whole thing is a shambles made worse by the harsh economic realities HMG inherited. God only knows how it'll turn out.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

To reload the cells the boat would have to dock into the harbour and with cranes lift in the new cells that is if the navy has got any near the falklands otherwise nearest reload would be in Plymouth

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

So Dauntless being able to take out every military war plane in South America is a bit of an exaggeration?

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

It could but only with a very good supply of the weapons needed, Considering this could turn out to be all about oil i can see those weapons being supplied. Strange that the yanks have not got an aircraft carrier or three off the coast of the Falklands yet.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Why would they? They aren't supporting us on this unfortunately.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

but...but...but we have a special relationship

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Yes, that was one of the things I was worried about when I mentioned the lack of big guns. Far easier to resupply shells than highly complex rockets, cruise missiles etc. etc. It wouldn't surprise me if that part of the operational 'fine detail' had either been left out of the sales pitch or forgotten about somewhere along the line.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

When it suits them we do

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

That's why it's so 'special'...... ;)

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

the Americans won't lift a finger to help look at the 1st war they didn't do much Reagan even said don't bother trying to take the islands back.
The relationship is only special when it suits the yanks.

With regards to the sylver vls that the 45s use the reload is only 1 missile a time not say all 8 in 1 go so there might have been a load shipped over just in case on a c17 on the replenishment run

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

tbf, the US did supply us with the latest AIM-9Ls which took out most of the Argentinian planes, satellite recon intelligence, 12.5 million gallons of aircraft fuel, and updated the facilities at their Ascension Island base to enable the flow of supplies.

Link

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Did they give us 'special' rates on the deal?... ;)

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Yeah ,"we'll sell you stuff if you change your laws to suit us ":)

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Ahhh... very 'special' then! :)

Seriously it'd be nice to know the truth behind such assistance and any 'quid pro quo'. It might not be as one-sided as we think but I expect it is sadly... :erm:

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Do you mean like the extradition agreement?

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Thats the one :tu:

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

That is what I call a long term loan :rolleyes:
Anyway, it should stir things up a bit.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

That's just quality :rofl::rofl:

We lend them money, and sell them arms, for them to use to attack us.

I wonder how much interest there is to pay on that?

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

No wonder they lost ,we sabotaged the guns before sending them off to the Argies :D

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

We have been doing that for centuries, infact IIRC it was German money from arms sales pre WWII that helped keep us in the war in the early days.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Anyone who fancies a laugh should read the piece the new Argentine ambassador has written for today's Torygraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...d-dispute.html

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

He does know what newspaper "The Telegraph" is? :D

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Do you know who the Ambassador is ? He happens to be a She, Alicia Castro.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Sorry, my mistake, I was more interested in why she even did it :D

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

mmm writing a totally one sided artical ,accusing the host nation of warmongering ,yeah seems like a good way of beginning a new ambassadorial post :rolleyes:

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Also it is the wrong newspaper in the first place!

Argentina is fast becoming a parah state now that they have angered Spain (who are with Argentina over the Falkalnds) over YPF

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Well, she is the Argentine ambassador, it's her job to make her government's case to Britain. Unfortunately she doesn't seem to have realised that the British media has fairly comprehensively covered the story over the past six months and every British citizen who gives a damn has already gone off and mugged up on it. I doubt there are any aspects of the tale that anyone bothered enough to read her drivel hasn't already seen, heard or read for themselves.

The thing that struck me most about it, though, was it was just so amateurish.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

I know i just thought she would at least get her feet under the table before trying to inflame the situation


ex trade unionist ;)

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Oi, it doesn't make you an idiot just because you are in a trade union;)

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

No, but it helps ... ;)

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Just read on the press association that a TV advert is running in Argentina showing one of their olympic athletes training on a british war memorial. I'd post a link but I haven't got the hang of copying and pasting on this phone yet. I think they are bang out of order but rather than ban their team I hope we treat this latest attempt at brinkmanship with the contempt it deserves and maintain our dignity

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

There ya go

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16221299


Totally agree ,just ignore them and answer them in medals when the time comes

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

It's just so ... Crass. I can't believe this is what passes for statecraft in Argentina.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

On a more emotional note my parents are attending a reunion on the Oriana this morning for a meal and look round in honour of those who got in injured or sadly lost their lives in the Falklands war for seaman who served in The Falklands and my dad was on HMS sheffield when it was hit on that fateful day of the 4th of May 1982 .and l am so glad to have my dad around as he was injured badly in the war and and could of easily drowned.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

If Argentine are that bothered then why don;t they boycott the olympics?? Even if they took their South American friends with them it still wouldn't count for many athletes/medals :rofl:

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Can you imagine their outrage if we'd used an Argentinian war memorial in a similar manner? Hypocrites digging themselves a nice deep hole.

---------- Post added at 10:37 ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 ----------

Heroes one and all.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Secretly filmed yeah really shows their national pride doesn't it complete *******s for what they have done.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Hmm, somewhat embarrassing:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-17963577

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

If it is a British owned company, then I would have thought that they could order the Argentine branch to pull the advert.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

I doubt the company would hold the copyright over an ad commissioned by a second party.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

It all depends on how much control the advertising agency in Argentina have over the advert.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

In the UK the agency that created the work would have copyright by default. The customer would have copyright only if the contract specified it. The work was not created in the UK though, so it would depend on copyright law in Argentina.

To be honest, rule of law seems to be a secondary concern so far as Kirchner is concerned, and I imagine she would insist on continuing to run the commercial even if the copyright was in the hands of the agency that made it.

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VetuOlwcmqU :rofl:

In other news, the athlete who featured in the original ad is almost certain to miss the games having failed to get selected for a pre-Olympic tournament.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-Olympics.html

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Probably just as well for him...

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

That has so made my day :rofl::rofl:

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No link yet but this is the latest bbc news headline

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

This will be a landslide, it's just meant to be posturing towards the Argentinian government (obviously).

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Link to referendum story

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18412195

---------- Post added at 15:08 ---------- Previous post was at 15:05 ----------

It really also does strengthen the UK argument in the United Nations in that they've let the inhabitants decide their own future. It's hard for the Argies to then say that the Falkland Islands should be theirs

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

Now HMG is obviously 'committed' to the notion of referenda, perhaps we could have one on membership of the EU?... :D

Re: Falkland Islands: Tensions Rising
 

I hope that is the last post about an EU referendum because it's really off topic. ;)