Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35371933)

There will be a United States of Europe at this rate, but the UK is unlikely to be part of it!

Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35371933)

There will be a United States of Europe at this rate, but the UK is unlikely to be part of it!

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35371808)

And that forced Greece to go on a spending spree and pay certain groups ridiculous amounts in wages.:rolleyes:

Originally Posted by gba93 (Post 35371955)

Damien/Hugh ------- any observations on this current turn of events :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35371983)

It's still not the same as invasion, however you make like to spin it.

Originally Posted by DaiNasty (Post 35372006)

Indeed it's not. There is always a faint hope that local rebels could fight off an armed invasion. With this sort of financially-driven takeover the result is virtually the same but there is no target to fight.

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35372044)

Whether it's true or not doesn't really matter does it? (Who knows, other than the German government what their ulitmate goal for the EU is and how far they'll go to achieve what they may well deem the only way for Germany and the rest of the EU to continue to survive and eventually prosper?). It's how Greeks (and others on the receiving end) see it and react that matters. Even overlooking 20thC history, I predict plenty of unhappy and impoverished people will perceive the realities of German economic control very negatively and react accordingly. That doesn't bode well for any of us either economically or for a politically stable Europe and as the stakes get higher the more uncertainty about what happens next there is.

Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35372075)

I do not think they want a Greater Germany, two world wars have stopped that and they paid hugely for that, what they want is a financially and politically stable Europe, even if it means they end up controlling it!

Originally Posted by gba93 (Post 35372110)

Whether they (the German people want) a Greater Germany that's what they'll get if they (the German Government) gets it's way and the EU (controlled in the most part by Germany) runs the economies of most of the European countries to a lesser or greater extent.

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35371808)

And that forced Greece to go on a spending spree and pay certain groups ridiculous amounts in wages.:rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 35372133)

Hang on we had a Government that DID exactly the same ruddy thing.

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35371957)

And thats the way l want it.

Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35372134)

But we are financially secure, for now...

Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 35372135)

:clap:

---------- Post added at 13:11 ---------- Previous post was at 13:10 ----------



For now. What would of happened if we had been part of the ruddy Euro or some usoe

---------- Post added at 13:16 ---------- Previous post was at 13:11 ----------

We need a debt fairy to right of ALL the debt so we can start a fresh :LOL:

Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35372141)

Even if we were part of the Euro, we would not go bust, but we will lose our AAA credit rating and give money to bailout other Eurozone members!

Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 35372143)

Not as long as i have a hole in my bottom. Our money should be for our country. Additionally we should stop giving money to other countries for the next 5 years and spend that money here on OUR people and OUR country.

Europe and GERMANY can have its USOE but i and most of the people of this country dont want any part of it. I take it your not covering history at University

If the EU at kept to its original plan of a common market this would be less of a problem.

Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35372150)

I am not suggesting of we joined the Euro as of now!

Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35372150)

If we do not join the United States of Europe, they we should look at other trade agreements as well!

Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 35372157)

Good



Have we not already got that as part of the common market ??

Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35372163)

I meant outside the EU, like the Commonwealth!

Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35372163)

I meant outside the EU, like the Commonwealth!

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35372171)

Do you mean like these ones we have, or are negotiating with (bilaterally, not as part of the EU), such as Singapore, USA, Canada, Mexico, Free Trade Area of the Americas (34 countries), Bangladesh, China, India, Japan, Australia, South Korea, Malaysia, Taiwan, amongst others?

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35372171)

Do you mean like these ones we have, or are negotiating with (bilaterally, not as part of the EU), such as Singapore, USA, Canada, Mexico, Free Trade Area of the Americas (34 countries), Bangladesh, China, India, Japan, Australia, South Korea, Malaysia, Taiwan, amongst others?

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35372362)

Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 35372390)

So does this mean the Germans get to parachute in there fiscal control people to those who do not play the EU game as per this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16773974

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35372362)

Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35372512)

This means that we are are even closer to a United States of Europe, but whenever we join it is a another matter...

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35372528)

There is no chance of us joining it.:td:

Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35372530)

It either the United States of Europe or the United States of America we would end up joining

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35372531)

No we are the good old British Isles and most people want it to stay that way.

Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35372533)

Well whatever we do, we are ultimately controlled from China

Originally Posted by gba93 (Post 35372577)

History tells us that, despite who is theoretically ruling these islands, we are never "controlled" - just ask the Romans

Originally Posted by gba93 (Post 35372577)

History tells us that, despite who is theoretically ruling these islands, we are never "controlled" - just ask the Romans

Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35372580)

You are right, Britain is a hard place to invade, just ask the Germans, Romans and French!

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35372704)

You may get a different answer if you ask the Normans, the Saxons, and the Vikings - and the Romans managed it for nearly 400 years.....;)

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35372704)

You may get a different answer if you ask the Normans, the Saxons, and the Vikings - and the Romans managed it for nearly 400 years.....;)

Originally Posted by Stuart (Post 35380871)

Well, on the News Quiz on Radio 4, they suggested that maybe Harry Redknapp's dog should be advising Greece.

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35382170)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17037267

This isn't looking good. There's a whole lot of serious resentment building up in Greece and something is going to give. :erm:

Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35382175)

IMO the best thing for Greece would be to leave the Euro and devalue it's own currancy. The EU politicians will never consent to that and will find some shabby way to string out the final agonising collapse of their vanity project, the nature of which will depend upon the German position: Are the people of the Rhineland really prepared stump up their hard earned cash so that southern Europe can carry on their Spanish practices or will they change government?

Though we'll get some collateral damge from this at least we're not actually iinside the building that's on fire.

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35382170)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17037267

This isn't looking good. There's a whole lot of serious resentment building up in Greece and something is going to give. :erm:

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35383408)

Word amongst the talking heads is that a number of EZ countries, led by Germany, have now decided that Greece is a basket case and has to leave the Euro. The ever-tougher demands being placed on Greece are not supposed to be met; they are designed to force the issue.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...catharsis.html

Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35383440)

They are a democracy, at least last time I looked, they can elect any party they see fit.



(From Chris' link)

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35383447)

I can quite believe that. It's a pity these people weren't a tad more diligent when they allowed Greece to join the Euro in the first place.

Originally Posted by DaiNasty (Post 35383702)

Au contraire. I believe that the Euro elite knew exactly what they were doing.
Greece is the weak link which will be the first practice run at demolishing a democracy and putting EU placemen in the key positions.

The rest come later..

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35383951)

They tried that a couple of times before - didn't seem to work.....

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35383959)

Do you actually read anything?

The EU gave Greece 110 billion euros of bailout loans in May 2010, and they didn't adopt any austerity measures then.

Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35383971)

He just expects Greece to be given huge wedges of cash forever without doing something about retiring at 50, paying 14 months wages for 12 months work, not collecting taxes from the rich (funny stance that considering his abhorrance of the "rich") and all the other Spanish practices.:rolleyes:

Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35383971)

He just expects Greece to be given huge wedges of cash forever without doing something about retiring at 50, paying 14 months wages for 12 months work, not collecting taxes from the rich (funny stance that considering his abhorrance of the "rich") and all the other Spanish practices.:rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35383975)

Well naturally, it's the same old socialist fantasy, except in this version of it the never-ending money tree is a country called Germany.

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35383993)

Yet you are demanding that Greece be given a pile of money *without* reforming.

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35385401)

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35385401)

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35385447)

Whatever the problem, the EU's solution is always spend, spend, spend ...

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/da...to-spend-more/

The video clip on that page is well worth watching in full.

Originally Posted by richard1960 (Post 35385444)

Greece in my view would be much better off leaving the Eurozone the austerity measures are killing the country instead it has taken another pile of cash and will crush its people even more whilst the elite live the Euro dream that the man in the street pays for very sad indeed.:(

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35385447)

Whatever the problem, the EU's solution is always spend, spend, spend ...

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/da...to-spend-more/

The video clip on that page is well worth watching in full.

---------- Post added at 09:36 ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 ----------



Have a look at this report into the agreement. You could be forgiven for thinking the Grauniad and Torygraph hacks were attending different events.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...or-Greece.html

By the Tele's reckoning, this is not just the nick-of-time solution that the Graun would have you believe it is. Greece has been forced to accept the permanent and significant presence of Euro-Gauleiters in the heart of its finance ministry. It has also been forced to create a ring-fenced bank account that will never contain less than three months' debt repayments.

The power to decide how and where to raise and to spend money is the fundamental benchmark of sovereignty. The EU is no longer gnawing at the edges of national sovereignty by mucking around with common agricultural, fisheries or even foreign policies, it has rammed a stake through the heart of the Greek state by installing itself in that country's economic policy too.

Of course, let's not forget that the current Greek government has agreed to this and bears responsibility for it too. The Greek people certainly won't forget when the elections come round in April and the parliament is stuffed with fringe lunatics from the hard left and the hard right who have promised to chuck the whole austerity thing in the Agaean.

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35385867)

The Eurocrats in Chief just can't seem to accept that this thing cannot work in its current form and they're chucking yet more money at it in order to save face.

Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35386083)

Just kicking the can further down the road. Greece will never be in a position to make good on the deals "thrashed out" AKA cobbled together to save face. It cannot borrow money nor devalue its currancy to stimulate growth which are the only two realistic ways out unless Germany chooses to give them the money with no payback required.

I can't see the German electorate standing for that.

Meanwhile we're not out of it either:



Source

Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35386720)

If the German electorate want to prevent a recession in their own nation, give the bailout without a payback!

---------- Post added at 09:31 ---------- Previous post was at 09:30 ----------

Watch this Newsnight episode about Grecce

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...ht_17_02_2012/

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35389449)

Perhaps they need to wait a few years until the newly planted copses of money trees are fully grown....:rolleyes:

Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35389389)

You vill pay ze taxes or else.

Reuters source

Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35390089)

Source

Could be interesting as they thought the Irish were going to put this through on the nod.

Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35390149)

I thought that the Irish had applied a stitch in time and managed to avoid getting into the Greek position.

I wonder how many times they'll be asked this time before they get it right.

Originally Posted by Derek (Post 35390281)

I wonder how many times the EU will make them run this referendum until they give the 'right' result. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35390089)

Source

Could be interesting as they thought the Irish were going to put this through on the nod.

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35391567)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17230760



Well we shall see.

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35391567)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17230760



Well we shall see.

Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35391596)

We are now a step closer to a United States of Europe!

When (and how) will it happen, well we will wait and see!

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35391649)

You obviously had another vivid dream last night and perhaps you will have another one tonight.:D

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35391794)

Alan, re your signatureyou do realise it is illegal to vote more than once in an election? ;)

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35391794)

Alan, re your signatureyou do realise it is illegal to vote more than once in an election? ;)

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35391927)

You may wish to substitute "or" for "and", then.....

Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35392054)

Only if you substitute "!" for "." :D

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35408923)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17594684



These are eyewatering numbers. :shocked:

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35414503)

The cost of borrowing for Spain has jumped above 6%, raising again the prospect of a bailout.

The yield on Spain's 10-year bonds reached 6.1%, ahead of auctions of debt on Tuesday and Thursday that could be increasingly expensive for Spain.

Investors have been worried by data showing Spain's banks are entirely dependent on emergency ECB loans....

....The yield suggests that if Spain wanted to borrow for 10 years today, it would pay more than 6%.

In comparison, the yield on 10-year bonds from Germany, the eurozone's strongest economy, is 1.73%.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17725771

How long can this go on I wonder.

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35414558)

FYI, the yield from UK Government 10 year bonds is just above 2%.