Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Tell them personally to add you to the do not knock list. They should take your address and it should be passed around the congregation

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

not that bothered really--they're harmless , and i think they view me as a challenge;)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

And they know this from my front door how?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

head office mate :angel:

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Doesnt always work though zing..............you know what its like you get chatting to your door knocking buddy and hey ho before you know it, you have knocked at a "do not call" door! :)

---------- Post added at 15:42 ---------- Previous post was at 15:40 ----------


Most will not knock on a door on a Sunday before 11am and if the curtains are still drawn will walk on by, most..... but not all.
Why swear at them though Sirus?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I am on the list for do not knock and guess what every month we get a visit and it has got to the point where i no longer pretend to be polite to JW's. Also whilst attending a non faith primary school i was subjected to christian teachings every single schoolday so it doesn't just happen in faith schools.

No one has a right to mock anyone because of a belief even if you don't agree with whatever belief and that has always been the case and should always remain the cae in future. But to try and say christians are as hard done by in the UK right now as muslims is clearly stupid. Fact is this country now simply has lost most of it's old values and those that remain are being slowly eroded over time as they are viewed as not pc enough or not inclusive enough.

If we want to change anything then we are going to have to alter this country in major ways sooner rather then later and chances of that happening are about the same as all of us on here winning the lottery three times in a row.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Because i am sick and tired of the calls we get. We live close to various churches and halls and its seems we are fair game for them. I have stopped asking them to go away now as they just don't listen.

When they start to do as i ask i will be polite but until then sod them

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I see.

Pehaps a big sign on your door then......"All bible bashers please do not call, yes that means you who is about to knock on my door!"...... would do the trick then?! ;):)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I get the same couple coming round every other month, even though I've asked them to stop. They use the same opening line every time 'Did you know the bible is 100% correct'. :rolleyes:

I've resorted to having fun with them by asking them questions like why does god allow children to die of cancer, and why doesn't god grow back the limbs of amputees? They've got absolutely no answer and just mumble a bit and then continue preaching.:D

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

So you've got no answer as to why I don't get any knocking my door?

I highly doubt it.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Looks like they need to change their opening line then, very unusual for JWs to use the same question :)
Wierd questions though reedy, who would have an answer to those questions during a quick conversation on a doorstep.......complex questions, do you have answers to them reedy?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

[QUOTE=Russ;34925878]So you've got no answer as to why I don't get any knocking my door?



do i need one ?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Russ, they will knock at your door, but possibly on a day or days that you have not been in.
Witnesses are given an area to do the door knocking work on connected with their congregation.
They also cover shops and business.

I peronally was never in when they knocked on my door for years as I then worked full time.
Not many witnesses do the door to door work on an evening, but some more conscientious ones will try their best to catch folk in.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Would be nice.

I'm not on about JWs I'm talking about any of the "god botherers" who seem to constantly harass the atheists on the site.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I get a regular visit from a local JW but thats only cuz I ask her to bring me the mags. I think I have had 2 maybe 3 random knocks a year and ive had 2 visits from Mormons in the last 12 months and 1 visit from born again Christians in the 13 and half years ive lived here. So they are not really knocking that often round here

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

[QUOTE=Russ;34925929]Would be nice.



i have no idea why maybe its
your location [not on their rout ]
may be they have called before and decided not to call back

maybe they do knock on your door when your out .

maybe there waiting for you to make the first move.

who knows ?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I don't get any knocks on the door since I moved from Biggleswade.

It must be said it's nice to not be told I'm evil and should be rotting in hell when I answer the door now.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

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Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Ok whats this thread about now?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

ruddy avon lady

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Don't you know - it's in the title if you're stuck.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

russ's lack of knockers :)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Not even the Avon lady calls now.... It's great :)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Sorry i meant what are we discussing now cause its got nothing to do with the title.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

If you have a problem with a thread I suggest you report it.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Personally I get calls by the JW's, Mormons and members of my local Presbyterian Church.... Usually on a saturday morning, when I'm usually

a) About to climb into the shower

or

b) About to sit down for a read and write....

Very annoying.... ;)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I bet there won't be any JW'S knocking at the Bounty House Hotel ;)
They will certainly meet their match there :D

http://www.capc.co.uk/images/Tezza%2...0Witnesses.gif

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

'Our faith is being targeted .... and we've been thrown to the lions': the Christian hoteliers accused of insulting Muslim guest reveal

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz0ZYoWKfLO

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

A very interesting read. I'm starting to suspect the DC who led the investigation is a little too in love with her own legend.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I think they should perhaps sue the Muslim woman for defamation. This has ruined their lives

---------- Post added at 10:04 ---------- Previous post was at 10:04 ----------

Its just as much the CPS fault for bringing it to court

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Unless, of course, the case she is known to have persuaded the CPS to prosecute, even though it initially didn't want to, was this one ...

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

[QUOTE=zing;34926235]I think they should perhaps sue the Muslim woman for defamation. This has ruined their lives[COLOR="Silver"]


that's not really the Christian thing to do though is it .

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

well there are 400 grand in the hole because of her? its not like I suggested they go kick her head in is it. Due process ;)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

The Muslim convert at the centre of the case against Ben and Sharon Vogelenzang said yesterday she never expected it to end up in court.

Speaking for the first time since the case was dismissed, British-born grandmother Ericka Tazi said: ‘I was frightened and shaken when I was confronted by the hotel owners. They were wrong and deserved to be told off or cautioned.’ She said she had contacted police after talking to a friend about the row over religion.

‘The next thing I knew, DC Tracy O’Hara was on my doorstep,’ she said from her home in Warrington, Cheshire. ‘I was surprised when she told me there was enough evidence to bring a prosecution. I didn’t want that but I felt unable to stop it.’



this should never have got to court its a total farce.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

exactly but those accused are now ruined. The Muslim woman and whoever it was advised her to run to the police are to blame

Also she has not changed the accussation even though there were witnesses that did not back up her side of the story

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

That's not for you or anyone else to decide, only the couple in question.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

so would you go for revenge then if this was your story ??

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Ah no, you're not backing me in to a corner ;)

Whatever the couple decide to do it's up to them. How that relates to their faith is also up to them - it's a private matter and I have no opinion on their decision one way or another.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

would i do that :)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

it wouldnt be revenge it would be seeking recompense for the financial hardship this case has caused

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

That would be a very perilous enterprise for them, as the burden of proof is less. They would have to; a) proof that they did not behave they way in which they were accused and b) that the defendant's actions were the cause of their lack of trade.

---------- Post added at 17:49 ---------- Previous post was at 17:45 ----------

And they are to take no responsibility in any part of those at all? Perhaps this will also serve to remind other people in the hospitality industry that they pee off their clientele to their own detriment.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

You have this all back to front and upside down. If they were to commence libel proceedings against Tazi, it would be with regard to the things she said about them, and therefore for Tazi to defend herself using any of the range of defences set out in the Defamation Acts. She would most likely have to make her defence by claiming that her statements were the truth, in which case she would have to prove that they were. That would be tricky, because a court has already failed to find her truthful, and as you correctly point out the burden of proof is lower in a defamation case. That burden of proof, however, is working against Tazi, not for her.

What the the Vogelenzangs would in fact have to show is this:

A) That, on the balance of probabilities, Tazi did in fact make certain claims about the Vogelenzangs behaviour;
B) That their standing in the eyes of the common man was reduced as a result.

The first point is certainly proven, and I see no problem with the basic cause-and-effect of the second point, certainly not at the level of proof required in the case. Your suggestion that they would have to prove "that they did not behave they way in which they were accused" is way off beam. In a libel action, the complainant effectively says, "you said some nasty things about me, now prove that you have the right to say them". It is not for the subject of libellous comments to prove that those comments are untrue. It is for the person who made the comments to prove that they are true, or else the comments were reasonably made (for example, a defence of fair comment, although that would be unlikely to be relevant in this case).

Set against all of this, of course, is the fact that Tazi has the legal protection of qualified privilege to make the statements she did while in Police interview or on the stand at Court. Nothing she said in either of those contexts can result in a defamation claim, even if it were later shown to be a complete pack of lies. She could, on the other hand, be at risk of a charge of perjury (although I don't think that's likely here).

A libel action would be likely to fail firstly because Tazi made her claims in a privileged context. She may have repeated them outside of that context but the Vogelenzangs would have to prove that publication of those comments has taken place. If they did that, the action would then almost certainly fail at the second hurdle. There's little point denying that this has damaged their business, but it is clearly the court case that has damaged their business, not any unprivileged libel by Tazi.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

You are right, the burden of proof would be less for her to show, in regards their claim for defamation. However, in the counter-suit it would still be their case to prove, as I mentioned earlier. She could claim that she was harassed and as a result suffered physical and mental harm.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

we don't mind a bit of competition at all ;)

seen much worse than that on front doors in my time and much more though out ones too that gets 5.5 out of ten

as to them taking this further i doubt they will but if they were to i would have thought the malicious prosecution route would be their best option given that the Judge seemed to be saying he had heard nothing to back up any of the acusations

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

But that would be a case against the CPS, wouldn't it?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Just to follow up....

I must have spoken too soon as I had a knock on the door ;)

As these were polite and didn't start the abuse I have experienced on several previous occasions I was in fact impressed.

They offered to leave a magazine and when I told them I wouldn't be able to read it they even offered to drop be a braille copy off, now THAT is impressive.

Anyway as I do try to listen to everyones opinion I'll be reading it to see what I think.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I take it they are JW's?

they do audio Watchtower as well as far as I am aware . They have a big organisation called Bethal that prints all the magazines and other media on site for global distribution they also have all the archives of Watchtower on CD rom

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Sounds like toilet paper thats stippled for your pleasure. ;)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Indeed they were - it was the first time I had what I'd call a 'good experience' with them so I am prepared to look through their literature :tu: I'm not sure how to put this nicely - um..... If people are nice to me then I have no problems at all being nice back, but previous visits were frankly quite abusive and upset me so I did not want to listen to what was being said.

They didn't mention an audio version, probably as they saw my braille machine I'd guess.

Anyway - I'd better not go too far OT - I was just following up on my previous post :)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

yep as if they have suffered real hardship loss of trade its most likely thier best chance of some sort of compensation and in any case as good Christians they wouldn't want to take revenge on her ;)

Romans 12:19-21

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

We're selling our hotel, say Christian couple in row with Muslim guest

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz0jTDR5TFR

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

And good riddance to them.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Racist! Religionist! Somethingist! :spin:

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

for exercising their right of religious expression ?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

It didn't get anywhere in court but didn't the BBC suggest that the Muslim woman helped create the situation and the judge suggested something similar?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

yes i believe it was suggested she cried wolf and was caught out fibbing .

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

No I'm sure it was a case of the couple did have a heated exchange with her but the BBC reported that the judge said the woman failed to mention all the nasty things she'd said. I'd say good riddance to her actually.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

And why? We need more than 5 words to make a discussion flyboyzzzz :)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Do we? I've seen discussions start on less words than that..;)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Bit of a short statement without argument, very dismissable, lacks substance, bit of a non starter IMO ;)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

BBC

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

For you maybe but for others all it takes is one word..;)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Thank you. So maybe Flyboy would like to return and explain his 'good riddance to them' comment? I'm guessing he didn't pay any attention to the facts and assumed because the couple were charged then they must be guilty of 'racism', 'religionism' or whatever.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

The point is that this couple clearly had a problem with this woman's choice of religious dress, otherwise why say that it represented a form of bondage. From what I remember, that has not been challeneged, only the way it was said.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

The point also is this woman clearly had a problem with telling the truth.

Shouldn't those who cry 'racism' or any kind of 'ism' falsely be prosecuted to prevent other spurious and frivolous claims?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I think, after hearing all the evidence (that we've been told about), that both parties were equally stupid/provocative/whatever.

Only point I would make, is that if I were running a business, and a customer was rude, I would (and have) not respond in kind, just asked them to stop, as I believed their behaviour was inappropriate, and that it was upsetting other customers - not join in on the argument and "fan the flames".

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

She had stayed there for weeks, not days and had only dressed in that manner until the final day, when her husband was coming(coincidence? and perhaps proves their point?). There had been previous discussions of a religious nature between them all and so taking part in another discussion does not seem unreasonable.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

But still was none of their business.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

What I think happened was the couple were clearly discussing Christianity and that woman chose to include herself in the situation, in which case it was none of her business.

I know you want to portray yourself as a defender of minorities and yes, usually Muslims are the victims in situations like this but it seems the woman herself has trouble telling the truth as alluded to by the judge.

On those terms I'd say she probably made up most of it.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

It seems to me that neither party comes out of this affair smelling of roses, and that both sides could've have handled the situation a lot better than they did.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

And for that, do you believe the loss of their livelihood is natural justice?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I don't - but I reiterate one of the first rules of customer service - don't get into arguments with paying customers.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

The article says that one of their main sources of income was from the NHS, who have since stopped sending patients following Mrs Tazi's complaints. Unless the NHS was its ONLY source of income then I'd think there were other reasons for the hotel not making money anymore, the Recession, as well as competition being two of them. It would be interesting to see their accounts leading up to the complaint.

Also as Forevever said, don't get into arguments with paying customers. Irregardless of whether she had gone to court or not, she could have just completed feedback to the hospital of her experience and they might have taken the same decison into not using the hospital anymore.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

They haven't said they're not making money anymore, just that their income has dropped. As this thread has shown some people will take a knee-jerk reaction to the headline that a Muslim was verbally attacked so it's possible these types of people are voiding the hotel too.

None of us know exactly what happened that day but the person with the best viewpoint (the judge) indicated there was more than what we're told.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Their main income stream has been effected because the hospital that sent through a lot of their clients is not doing so anymore. They are not doing so, not because Mrs Tazi was a muslim in my opinion, but because the hotel owners got into an argument with a guest, who happened to be a patient in the hospital's care. They (the hospital)would have probably taken the same action whatever the basis of the argument was.

I don't think the lack of income is due to customers no longer going there because of a knee jerk reaction.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I still think there's an element of political correctness in this. Regardless of the woman's faith, I agree with you that the hospital saw it as the hoteliers arguing with a patient and given how quickly people like to make claims against the NHS ("they insisted in putting me in a hotel where I'd be verbally attacked"), I'm sure the health bosses took that decision to avoid any potential complications.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

:tu:

Especially about politics and/or religion. It's only common sense. :D

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

She had been there for weeks not days and may have spent a large part of each day at the house. There had been previous discussions involving the three of them over that period of time. It wasn't as if it was the first time they had met. It wasn't a one-sided rant, it was a two-way discussion on issues.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I thought it was their choice to close up. As has already been suggested, if they can't contain their religious exuberance and applying their enthusiasm to paying customers, perhaps they should consider a alternate venture.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

"Religious exuberance" or responding to an attack on their faith?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Nice dodge. Let's try again.

The couple are citing the allegations - which a court has ruled do not constitute criminality, and are so far from criminality that they should never have resulted in a charge - as the reason for the failure of their business.

As it seems to me that you deem their behaviour to be unacceptable, if not actually criminal, I am interested to know whether you also think that the failure of their business is a naturally just outcome?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I wouldn't want to do business with them if I thought that I would end up having an argument with them and I presume that is the belief of many others.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I read that as meaning "Yes, it serves them right, but I don't want to say so directly because it makes me look a bit small-minded and vindictive towards people whose beliefs and values I don't share".

;)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

:rofl:

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

that sounds like your describing a bigot :shocked:

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Or a hypocrite, ironic that eh?? :D

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

What I think has happened here is you've dived right in to defend the 'persecuted' group without actually stopping to read the facts first. Yes I agree in cases usually like this it's the Muslim who is the victim, they do seem to come in for a lot of stick (rightly or wrongly) but you'd be better off actually looking in to the facts and basing your intelligent, well-read and eloquent opinion on them instead.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

This whole thread raises some interesting questions.

When does it cease to be OK to say something about someone's religion? While it is obviously never OK to say (for instance) that religion reqires child abuse, is saying the way *certain* Muslim women are required to dress is a form of bondage (it's worth pointing out here that I read an article in the Evening Standard 2 or 3 years back that was written by a Muslim women which went even further than this and said Muslim women's wear is sometimes used to hide evidence of rape and serious physical abuse)? Would it have been OK for the Muslim woman to say the Christian fascination with the Cross (on which their Messiah died) is a sign of a fascination with death, or some sort of celebration of His death?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I think it all depends on how "what's being said" is being said. Personally I am open to discussion on my religion, as long as I feel its a constructive discussion, and where the person saying something is not doing so to deliberately cause offence. If you take the example of Muslim dress (I am assuming the Burqaa is being referred to) being used to hide evidence of rape, then this could be seen as a valid argument, if it was one of many reasons given for women wearing it, to which I would retort that women have worn other items to cover up rape or abuse (be they Muslim or non muslim). If some one said the "burquaa is worn to cover signs of abuse" and that was their only argument, then I would conclude they are simply looking for an argument.

If more people of different religions & non religions could sit down and discuss their views regarding religion, non religion, personal beliefs, with the intention of educating themselves and others (as opposed to simply being there to slag each other off), then I personally dont think that anything should be off limits.