Re: The existence of God
 

<pedant>

Surely if something is a fact, it has 100% probability?

</pedant>

Re: The existence of God
 

No-one is saying the existence of God is a fact.

Been done to death - you're 6 months late http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/23...eligulous.html

---------- Post added at 13:38 ---------- Previous post was at 13:36 ----------

So if it can'r be explained in human terms then it cannot be true?

In my eyes, no. I don't make any judgement on someone else's faith in their religion. It's none of my business. If I'm asked my opinion, that's different. But that's as far as it goes.

Re: The existence of God
 

If God doesn't exist then Jesus can't surely? the Bible was about God and Jesus. that's what brings it all together. I'm surprised you said that now :confused:

Re: The existence of God
 

In that case I'll say it again - no-one (myself included) is saying the existence of God is fact.

Re: The existence of God
 

Russ this is what I've been saying all the time. when a question is asked such as this one. there is no answer other than what you have just said.

I'm not saying that you have to answer. but don't you even question it?
you must question things happening in life all the time. and that one has to be more extraordinary than the things you do question as to why today.

Re: The existence of God
 

Russ ... if you don't believe 100% that God exists, why are you debating Gods existence?

Re: The existence of God
 

No-one? so how can the Bible be true then? if it is true then why the mention of God in it. if people who believe the rest are not sure if that part is fact :confused:

Re: The existence of God
 

All this demonstrates to me is you have a complete ignorance and misunderstanding of Christianity (and maybe other religions too but I don't know enough about them to comment).

The basis of Christianity is faith. If evidence is sought and subsequently found then there is no longer any need for faith as it then becomes evidence.

In the war of science vs religion, when it comes to absolute proof science wins on many levels. But that's because the 2 viewpoints require different criteria.

Say if I was to produce some sort of artifact which, in scientific terms proved that God was watching over us. Where's the need for faith?

Some chose Christianity because of the rewards that faith offers them. I respect that notion but it's not just what motivates me. I chose it because it makes more sense to me.

I will say to anyone that God is very real and all around us because I experience what He has done and he has spoken to me (don't bother - it was very very personal and no it wasn't a voice in my head) but can I produce a mathematic formula to prove it? No but then again neither can I prove the fact that I'm going to enjoy Wrestlemania tonight but I know I will anyway.

---------- Post added at 13:54 ---------- Previous post was at 13:52 ----------

I didn't say I don't believe 100% that He exists, I said it's not a fact as it cannot be proven. See above about 'faith'.

Re: The existence of God
 

I had a Jehovahs Witness knock on my door once. I opened the door and his first line was enthusiastically 'Did you know the bible is 100% correct' ..... I'd just seen Religulous and remembered the line 'A talking snake, you're going to stand infront of me and hand on heart, tell me you believe in a talking snake'.

I've never seen anyone look so sheepish in my life, he looked at his shoes and said 'Yes', I wished him a good day and off he went.

Re: The existence of God
 

Don't take this as mocking, but it has to be asked.
you said no-one. I don't think you mean no-one as everyone in and outside this thread. but you say you are not 100% sure that God exists. but as I said it has to be asked. the talking snakes you say unless proved otherwise were real, and you say that it's about faith, and faith is belief. I've always accepted that it was about that.

but if you start doubting God then the talking snakes and Jesus have to be doubted too as it was God that was the major role with both of them?

Re: The existence of God
 

But to believe in something that you are only certain 'might not exist', seems illogical?

Re: The existence of God
 

What do you mean by 'logical'?

Re: The existence of God
 

Don't you dare put words in my mouth.

And that goes for you too.

I have never said God might not exist. I am 110% certain that He does. In my own mind I know that God exists.

What I said was there is no scientific proof, therefore God is not a scientific fact.

I do not have scientific proof but I have 110% belief and faith that He is real. I have 0% doubt.

Re: The existence of God
 

How about just allowing people their individual idiosyncrasy?:shrug:

Sorry rethinking that I should substitute accepting for allowing...

Re: The existence of God
 

It would seem to me Russ is saying he believes though as fact it can not be proven.
This is what faith is all about, belief not proof.

Re: The existence of God
 

I was a Methodist for 14 years and never heard a murmur.:(

If you've experienced what he has done then there must be something that we can investigate and WE, the members of the CableForum will prove all those doubters wrong!

We're going to be famous folks!! :angel:

Re: The existence of God
 

:clap:

Thank you, someone who understands.

---------- Post added at 14:10 ---------- Previous post was at 14:09 ----------

That's between you and God, and no-one else.

Re: The existence of God
 

I've always understood and accepted that..so have many other CF members..it's just the usual suspects that can't leave it at that.

Re: The existence of God
 

I'm not Russ. you are taking the word you as you personally.

The same as I am taking the word no-one as you meaning everyone.

Re: The existence of God
 

Oh ..... I've put it on a forum now.:(

Re: The existence of God
 

Steve here....Lucys better half.

I was trying to work out why the Jehovah's Witness would sheepishly look down at his shoes.
Yes he does believe in a talking snake.
That may sound amusing to you, but see it from his point of view, and indeed anyone that believes in the creation account.

What you have to understand is that refering to a talking snake out of context does sound unbelievable, (unless you are a Harry Potter fan) however taking the creation account as recorded in the Bible as true, which Jehovah's Witnesses do, then you believe that Adam and Eve were every day discovering new things.
Think of many of the things you find in nature, and imagine seeing them for the first time, without the benifit of TV or photograph's, so many of them would seem amazing.

So yes a talking snake would be suprising, but after what they would have been discovering every day, would not seem as ridiculous as it may today.

Re: The existence of God
 

I know that it's about faith and belief.
but I don't understand how it's all faith and belief for one thing, and the bible and what it says is truth.

Re: The existence of God
 

Oh I /understand/ where you are coming from completely.

I just don't bother to discuss it anymore.

I have tried to on various occasions in person with different religions and religiuos places.

The responses I get to even the most general of questions range from people saying that I should be dead and it's a shame I'm not (this to my face on my doorstep at home).

and the most rude and offecnsive people I've EVER talked to actually IN a church in Biggleswade.

Still as I've said I can't take this as representitive of ALL religion's / religious people. But it IS the main reason I don't bother any more.

Re: The existence of God
 

Were you listening? Seriously, if you want to hear, I'll pray for you, but you have to promise to listen.

Dude, the scientific method was designed to investigate the contents of the creation. It simply doesn't have the tools to investigate outside of that. To dismiss something just because your chosen means of investigating it isn't up to the task is just silly.

Re: The existence of God
 

Ok well let me make this as clear as I possibly can for you, and you personally.

I have never said I have any doubts as to whether God is real or not. 110% certainty, 0% doubt.

Re: The existence of God
 

The thing is, there's no evidence that any of it is real, and the fact there's no evidence by default, null and voids the existence of god and god says, 'I never thought of that' and disappears in a puff of logic.

Re: The existence of God
 

Hello Lucy's other half :)
But we've never saw another one that talks since. only a parrot which is itself pretty amazing :)

---------- Post added at 14:25 ---------- Previous post was at 14:23 ----------

And concrete proof of his non existence wouldn't alter your belief?

Re: The existence of God
 

Yep ok, I'm sure that notion brings you much happiness and I wish you well with it.

Re: The existence of God
 

Actually, Adams suggested that it was an unfeasibly useful creature called the Babel fish that was proof of God, rendering faith unnecessary and causing God to disappear in a puff of logic.

But don't forget, the man who 'won' that argument with God promptly got himself run over on a zebra crossing. ;)

Re: The existence of God
 

I've never considered there'd ever be such evidence. You produce it and we'll talk about it then.

Re: The existence of God
 

Pehaps because the bible is truth for those that believe/have faith in its words and teachings.

For the love of Darwin, even I get this...

Re: The existence of God
 

'I think therefore I am' is the only 100% fact. Everything else requires some degree of belief.

Re: The existence of God
 

I'm off to eat my hat. We only had to go and look on YouTube!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF3L359yKjs

Re: The existence of God
 

and that's saying something :)

Re: The existence of God
 

If you keep proving your intentions are only to mock then very few of us will bother taking you seriously. No-one says you have to believe but at the very least you could show some respect to those who are being respectful to you.

Re: The existence of God
 

Many thanks DRZ.........
So right, there is no need for any further posts!;):)



Was that mocking or injecting humour on a thread that is now going no where.

I repeat, believe, or do not believe, the choice is your own to make.

Do not knock believers, do not knock unbelievers.

Re: The existence of God
 

I'm sorry, I have a very dim view of religion as my ex girlfriend at the age of eight was repeatedly raped by a Catholic priest who was then whisked off to Ireland by the church to avoid prosecution.

---------- Post added at 14:53 ---------- Previous post was at 14:52 ----------

I even know his name and where he is!

Re: The existence of God
 

That is a common misconception.

A black hole makes a sound like a B-flat.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronom...ay_030922.html

Re: The existence of God
 

So you judge the beliefs of 2.1 billion people on the actions of one man? Do you despise all Germans because of Hitler?

If the above is true then his faith had nothing to do with his actions.

Re: The existence of God
 

I very much doubt that's the real reason.

Re: The existence of God
 

No ... I never believed in god but i have a serious dislike for the Catholic Church for their actions in covering up numerous acts of paedophilia in their clergy.

---------- Post added at 15:14 ---------- Previous post was at 15:13 ----------

Numerous being thousands.

Re: The existence of God
 

OK so your problem is not what Catholicism teaches or believes, your issue is with your perception of what you see as a 'cover up'?

Re: The existence of God
 

fair enough but that is just one church run by humans judge the bible by reading it

( read the other religions books to rather than judge them on what thier members do )

as i am sure i can find many evolutionists who have committed various crimes but i wouldnt then say they are all like that ;)

Re: The existence of God
 

Meaning?

Re: The existence of God
 

Hilter wasn't German by birth

Re: The existence of God
 

OK I didn't realise the pedants were out in force. How about judging all Iraqis on the actions of Saddam?

Re: The existence of God
 

Just wondering about this. Do you actually mean your parents are Methodists and they made you go to church until you were 14?

That's what happened with me (except mine were Anglicans). By the time I was 14 I felt I was old enough to refuse to get out of bed on a Sunday morning. :D

Re: The existence of God
 

There was only one Saddam :)

Re: The existence of God
 

There was only one Hitler, your point is?

Re: The existence of God
 

I'm not having ago, just letting you know. It's a common mistake - people thinking he was German. Sorry for making you aware. I didn't realise you were so against learning new things... jeez. :rolleyes:

Re: The existence of God
 

My Dads doesn't believe either ... I'm pretty sure my mum doesn't even though she plays the organ at church BUT yes, they made me go to church until one day at 14 I told them I was going skateboarding instead!!:D

Re: The existence of God
 

I think I just stayed asleep. :erm: :D

However I started going to a different church when I was 16 with a couple of friends. The difference was they talked about Jesus as if he was real rather than a religious icon. I got born again about a year later after I decided this was really what I wanted.

But I think my mum would have preferred me to carry on being a good little Anglican altar boy (yep, for real) rather than a slightly charismatic house-church person.

Re: The existence of God
 

Here's a question maybe one or more of the believers maybe able to answer for me, "when you consider the worlds largest and most mainstream religions, isn't it just an accident of birth whichever one you maybe born into".
I mean there are thousands of Jews, Muslims, Buddhist's and Hindu's around the world who are equally sure that their own religion is the correct path, and that others are not.
Is it not as much to do with nurture what particular religion you end up believing in, as opposed to pure faith.?

Re: The existence of God
 

Good God, 550+ post's on the existence of God. WOW that's some going.

On a more personal note if there is a God he's pretty crap at his job, just take a look around (excluding the barber) Were in deep doo doo. Famine, greed, pestilence. Normal people being screwed over by their own government, STM, taxes the list is endless and what is "he" doing about it, not a bloody thing.

Their is no god, no higher being, we were born of evolution and we will become extinct due to our own evolution.

Dont read to much into the good book, its a fine story that has had people going for 2000 years and if it gives you comfort then that cant be a bad thing.
We need to come together to put a stop to what is happening around us, war, fighting, disease etc. Not wait for the omnipitent bloke from a story to wave is finger and put us all out of our misery.

Re: The existence of God
 

With sects like Catholicism you have a point, because you're not really given much of a choice. My own view is if a religion is chosen for you then you are prone to apathy. I was born and raised a Catholic but I had no say in it and a few weeks after my 18th birthday I walked away from it.

---------- Post added at 20:55 ---------- Previous post was at 20:52 ----------

Really? Aww, back to voodoo for me then.

</Moe Syzlak>

(mind you, it must be great being able to come on CF and be so open about dismissing our views by imposing yours on us ;))

Re: The existence of God
 

Yup sure is :D

Re: The existence of God
 

Double standards are alive and well....

Re: The existence of God
 

Thanks for the response Russ, from what you've said above I can understand the thought behind that insofar that you made a conscious choice to choose the religion you felt was right.
As you know though there are religions in the world that don't allow this, its even backed up by the death penalty, I know without even asking that you wouldn't agree with that, obviously;) but tieing somebody into a belief system they were born into seems to me more like a case of state controlled terror.
Surely the best system is the one you explained above whereby as an adult you are free to choose what religion, if any you want to follow.

I seem to remember him saying, "I was born a snake-handler and I'll die a snake-handler.;)

Re: The existence of God
 

are you saying leave kids out of religion until there developed enough to make there own choices ?

Re: The existence of God
 

I'd disagree with that on the grounds of basic common sense.

Let kids know about all religions, educate them on everything so if they don't chose one at least they won't grow up believing such rubbish as "religion causes wars" and other prize turnips found in this thread.

Re: The existence of God
 

Even though I'm a non believer I've lived my life by the morals I learnt as a child so even I say there is a plus point!

Re: The existence of God
 

No, I'm saying that when a child reaches the age of consent then surly its only right they are able to choose to leave the religion they were born into.
I was pointing out that in countries like Saudi and Iran that isn't an option, on pain of death, hence the remark enforced terror.

Re: The existence of God
 

is religion common sense ?

"at least they won't grow up believing such rubbish as "religion causes wars" and other prize turnips found in this thread.[/QUOTE]



it really hasn't caused a spontaneous outbreak of love in this thread though has it .

Re: The existence of God
 

That's a discussion in itself but would be completely off topic as it's nothing to do with what we're discussing.

I assure you it's caused a spontaneous outbreak of patience and tolerance....

Re: The existence of God
 

Both of which are back up to 100% levels at this side of the screen :)

Re: The existence of God
 

russ please dont dismiss the issue -you brought "common sense" into the debate, if its common sense then please explain why[ and lets face it this discussion has covered a multitude of diversity ]

Re: The existence of God
 

to start I am agnostic, however the strongest position so far both theoretically and empirically is clearly with those whom are religeous in this thread:

I don't agree the thread is dead, however it is clear that at least two persons are simply regurgitating their opinions over and over. It gets a bit tiresome reading:

I don't believe
I don't believe
I don't believe
I don't believe
I don't believe
I don't believe

talking snake surely that proves God doesn't exist?

oh and prove God is real....

Worse, lazy posting... some of the links etc. have been either a waste of time or conclude something different to the title.
This in itself isn't a problem but "it is" if the poster obviously just googled for an article title then didn't actually read it! (I read it many others probably did as well, you are time thieves)

I could easily be wrong but it seems that the religious among us are missing some things due to their passionate belief.

1. Prove that God isn't real - talking snakes don't "prove" God doesn't exist, maybe it was a prototype :) Though my understanding is a war was kicking off in heaven around this time concerning humans and souls and lucifer??? my facts may well be a little off on this though.
2. Gary, first I haven't misread you - you just haven't been as consistent as you believe. Also you didn't answer my question. I wanted to know what you believe and I received a list of what you don't believe and a may believe. Oddly you don't believe in God or the Big Bang theory.... what do you believe? Do you have any empirical evidence to support your belief since you ask the same of religeous folk.
3. Actually the religeous have seized upon this one, You can call yourself Christian, Methodist, Jehovah W etc. all you like, doesn't mean you feel it or believe???

Re: The existence of God
 

agreed my tolerance levels are at the max my doctor says is safe for my blood pressure ;)

Re: The existence of God
 

:banghead:

Would you rather children grew up with the level of religious ignorance often displayed on this forum or with enough understanding to make up their own mind about what they want to believe in (or not)?

Re: The existence of God
 

hmmm... really??? I was under the impression religion had a lot to do with a lot of deaths over the last few thousand years.

Re: The existence of God
 

Surely it is clear, you should let children experience nothing until they get to 16 or so then they can decide about everything :)

Re: The existence of God
 

Oh for crying out loud.... :disturbd:

Re: The existence of God
 

i would like children to given the right to be children ,and not badgered into being something there "parents" want them to be .
to quote pink Floyd [a group i cant stand btw ]
oi teacher leave them kids alone

Re: The existence of God
 

I knew you'd get the wrong idea. I didn't say anything about preaching to children. Read my posts again with a little objectivity. I said they should be taught about all religions. With a bit of luck the next generation won't have so many clueless members on the subject.

Re: The existence of God
 

Please see my previous comment. Thoughts?

Re: The existence of God
 

While I was reading this I was listening to Alex Jones and the Obama Deception in another window :D

Re: The existence of God
 

post them again if there important

Re: The existence of God
 

:LOL:

Re: The existence of God
 

I'm all for being told I'm incorrect, but empty posts like that don't help your cause here. Tell my why I'm wrong.

As a token from my understanding...

1) Oliver Cromwell was apparently led by his devotion to God.

2) The Islamic Revolution in Iran (1970s) where Imam Khomeini is said to believe in the 'war of conquest whose final goal is to make Koranic law supreme from one end of the earth to the other’. apparently, he wanted this war....

3) Philip II of Spain truly believed he was doing the work of God during his campaigns, did he not?

4)"For God and Country" (blame the Americans for that one)

5)The Egyptians rule over several Dynasties was led by their religious beliefs

Those are just for starters, but humour me. like i said, I was of the understanding religion was behind many deaths over a few thousand years, but enlighten me as you seem to know better (which I am not doubting). but simply posting "oh for crying out loud" doesn't help much. I'm sure even you can see that.

Re: The existence of God
 

I said "for crying out loud" because it has been explained to you time and time again in each religion-bashing thread we've had that religion itself does not cause wars. It has been used as the catalyst, it has been used as the excuse, it has been used as the rallying cry but very rarely has religon been the sole reason for a war.

Wars get caused by politics, greed, power, land, money etc.

This is one of the main reason why we should be teaching our children about all religions, with a bit of luck they won't grow up with the same ignorance and lack of knowledge.

Re: The existence of God
 

@Papa & Gary L
So we're slipping into childishness now?

this thread will die if you can't post something relevant or with empirical evidence.

Gary I am not being deceptive but asking for evidence to show your contrary view to religion? Or is you view baseless i.e. based upon opinion alone.

Papa like I said lazy posters....

Re: The existence of God
 

Come on (truce time out) what Papa said about posting it again was funny :)

You've just made a long sermon about how tiresome it is to hear, and it's being repeated over and over. and now you're asking me to say it all again anyway?

Re: The existence of God
 

Good review in the Sunday Times today (trust me, this is on topic) about Religulous, which seems to sum up some of the posters in this thread (imho) -

"In this documentary by Larry Charles (Borat), the American satirist Bill Maher takes a polemical swipe at religion.
He goes from London to Israel and just about every religious site in between to talk to religious nuts and born-again loons of every persuasion.
His argument is one with which any atheist will be familiar, but by targeting the extreme and eccentric ends of the religious spectrum, Maher has gone for easy targets.
He comes up with the odd funny gag, but you get the feeling that he is as dogmatic about his doubt as the believers are about their faith." ;)

Re: The existence of God
 

OK ... We've all said why we think God doesn't exist and the improbability, But why does someone think God DOES exist?

Re: The existence of God
 

not at all. I am asking for something empirical to support your view. Nothing more. So far you haven't provided any evidence.

I don't mindf if you are using the thread as a playground, I am asking for honesty ;)

I have found some of your comment very funny but not exactly enlightening :)

Re: The existence of God
 

I think you'll find that's been covered too.

Re: The existence of God
 

This is the issue I cannot understand - why do some people go to so much trouble to try & 'prove' religions shouldn't exist?

I was taught that the opposite of love isn't hate, it is indifference - if people expend so much effort on being 'anti' religion, then it implies an engagement with the subject - wheras if they really were atheist or agnostic then they wouldn't bother - would they??

Re: The existence of God
 

I think you'll find "opinions" concerning his non existence have been posted not facts.

Re: The existence of God
 

i read it. i cant decipher it ,post whatever gem your trying to get out again so i can evaluate it .
and post empirical evidence of what ?

Re: The existence of God
 

I don't think so, this afternoon it's obvious the non believers were on the offensive and the believers were on the defensive.

Re: The existence of God
 

I've often wondered this and the only thing I can think of is it's a case of "I don't believe it so neither should you". In other words, imposing their views on others.

Re: The existence of God
 

I think Russ is refering to the many previous God threads already in existence.

A lot people believe in a god in one form or another because they feel that the must be a higher power at work controlling their lives and need to feel that it is real and true as otherwise the world around them would fall apart and they would be lost and without purpose or reason to exist.

Re: The existence of God
 

This is the only forum I know that Religions allowed to be discussed.

Re: The existence of God
 

I agree.

Interestingly a link to an aetheist website previously also counted agnostics and non believers in their numbers. In counting these other groups meant that atheism is the fourth largest belief system in the world.

Sounds like atheism has the battle lines drawn not christians i.e. for or against. Truth is, as an agnostic I am a little offended that I have been enlisted as aetheist....

Re: The existence of God
 

pick the splinters out of your bum and choose a point of view then ,it cant be very comfortable balancing on the fence ,or is it that you will only pick a point of view when you see one side is about to win - if thats the case your in for a long wait .

Re: The existence of God
 

ok I thought it was clear so I am wrong:

I was being sarcastic, is this a dying art in Britain, have we been that americanized..... :(

Basically, should parents try to prevent their children from experiencing anything until they can decide for themselves?

If you say yes to religion surely this would also cover dance, drama.... etc.

Re: The existence of God
 

I don't have any evidence. other than God has never spoke to me either in my head or to my face. well he did, but he wasn't real. he was a Policeman the next day and a soldier the next :)

Re: The existence of God
 

I am terribly sorry if I am spoiling your view over the fence :D

FYI I can't stand glory hunters, if that were the case I would choose the God side - I simply believe if it is all true my indifference would be known by God anyhow so why pretend?

Re: The existence of God
 

my apologies I'm good at giving out sarcasm but not so good a reading it from others , i see where your coming from but its half past my bed time so ill be back tomorrow evening -and on that bombshell .....;)

Re: The existence of God
 

looking at your avatar I'm wondering is that how you walk to bed.

I reeeeeeally hope so..... :)