Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

All of that may/may not be true but Israel's actions are only exacerbating the situation and turning more people against them. Those being pulverised in Gaza have few options, Israel has many and it's about time they acted with some humanity and broke the cycle of ever more aggressive and indiscriminate retaliation. Killing thousands of innocent people does nothing to aid their cause.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Having said that, there was a time prior to the invasion when Hamas could have prevented the cycle from starting by ceasing rocket fire but they chose not to.

As far as I know, Hamas has never said that it will cease firing rockets if the Israelis withdraw.

While the rockets are being fired the situation will continue and Israel will remain more convinced than ever that the only way to stop the rockets is to destroy Hamas.

Unfortunately, in the process, many non-Militant Palestinian civilians will be killed too.

If Hamas were given a free homeland, there is no guarantee that they would accept and respect an Israeli homeland.

The Israelis are unlikely to support a Palestinian claim for a homeland if Hamas is not willing to accept and respect the existence of Israel.

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Hamas are far from innocent but nothing they've done to date justifies what the Israelis are doing now. If the Palestinians were given a homeland Hamas would be pretty stupid to risk losing it by carrying on attacking Israel but even if they did on the scale they have been to date, it still wouldn't justify the killing of so many innocent, men, women and children by a nation which more than most ought to know better!

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Its all to easy to pick one side and blame the other. The reality dismissing the past (yes I said that because its not going to help now) is that both sides are carrying out imhuman acts and both side's are to blame NOW.

How there could ever be peace I dont know. It seems like a war that will rage forever or until one side is removed from this world. Its a sickening thought but the way I see things this seems to be the only way they would be happy.

I really dont see how there can be an end to this. Ceasefire's as I've said before never seem to last and neither side seems to really want to talk but rather remove the other.

Its a pity and a shame that such things like this go on in our world today when we as a race should know far better. Thats just my 2 cents worth (if it was worth that).

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If you ask many muslims outside the middle east what they think about Hamas most will say they are sympathetic and can see why they do it. There is a huge amount of support for Hamas because they fall under the umbrella of palestinians wanting a homeland. And by homeland I mean a viable deal which is fair to the palestinians and does not involve oppression or blockades. That is the cause of Hamas - their own homeland.

Give the Palestinaians that and then if Hamas launch attacks into Israel you will notice a drop in sympathy for them around the muslim world. Why? Because they would have got their land. There would no longer be a just cause.

As for their constitution says they don't recognise Israel, then that would be amended as part of the negotiation process.

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The future of both countries lies in a ceasefire, which at present neither side is prepared to accept or support. Sad but true.

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Yes, that's the mindset they're in and it's very dangerous one. It's what I alluded to in a previous post - these people are so self deluded now, they could wind up doing almost anything!!!

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I think it's more the case that neither side is prepared to back down as they would lose face or it would be perceived as a sign of weakness.

If Hamas keep launching rockets, Israel will keep up the air strikes and invasion.

The fresh worry for Palestinans is that when this is all over, Israel may well feel that Palestinians cannot be left to their own devices and decide that they need to to re-occupy Gaza. In that way they can keep an eye out for tunnels into Egypt and destroy them immediately. They can also deal with militants far more quickly.

If that happens life in Gaza will become that bit harder.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

The rocket attacks increased after Hamas were elected, Israel put up a blockade in response (a fact missed out intentionally by people who want to remove the ambiguity of the situation, far easier for Israel to be the devil). They have no interest in a peace, do you think they will ever compromise?

It seems clear they want to destroy Israel, Just because Israel are being barbaric in response does not absolve Hamas of being the murdering terrorists they are.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Damien, the blockade Israel imposed was a result of Hamas taking over Gaza. Israel has always controlled the movement of Palestinians inside and outside the West bank long before Hamas took power. The seige got worse over time but the main reason of it being put up was Hamas' democraticcaly elected (which people also seem to forget) rise to power.



Here's what ex President Jimmy Carter had to say about the situation.

And for good measure some other views from Human Rights Watch & Amnesty International

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I don't think it's easy to make Israel out to be the 'devil' in all of this. It's not easy for me - it's with great sadness that I find myself forced to condemn them! Many of my friends were brought up, like me, to be sympathetic to Israel's plight and, if anything, tended always to portray the other side in that fashion. What's changed now it that Israel has gone too far and when people like these start to turn their backs on Israel it's evident that the Government of that nation has not only lost the PR battle, it's lost the plot and is now scraping the barrel of means by which to wipe people out. Time after time contributors to this debate have pointed out that Hamas are far from innocent but that fact does not excuse mass slaughter and the sort of goings on which happened in the former Yugoslavia where even innocent, men, women and children in UN safe zones were murdered. Last night I heard an interview with a Palestinian doctor on the BBC. 16 of his family had just been killed whilst sheltering in a school which they'd been taken to after their homes were destroyed by Israeli bombs! Apparently UN representatives had insisted it'd be safe and (IIRC) had notified the Israelis but they still destroyed it! How many Jews in Israel can make such a claim other than those who suffered directly at the hands of the Nazis? Is that the level the Israeli government has descended to?

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Very well said. Your views are echoed by a lot of people I have spoken to, who were originally very pro Israel throughout the history of the region.

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Good post :tu:

---------- Post added at 11:30 ---------- Previous post was at 11:29 ----------

I am still Pro-Israel, I just don't agree with they are doing, it's far to extreme.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Hatred just begets more hatred.Hatred prevents forgiveness,which in turn prevents healing.Without healing there cannot be peace..

The first step is always the hardest..Forgiving someone whom the world says you should hate takes a great deal of courage.How many have the courage on both sides?

How many of us have that courage?

I've never forgotten this man who had such courage.

If only we had more people like him.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Israel to me seems a bit like the little boy that was bullied in the playground as a kid and then grew up to be more powerful then his former bullies. I am a little pro israeli although it is getting harder and harder to defend them and i would prefer a diplomatic solution not just for this but for the whole region so that it's people can have stability and security and grow to accept each other.

Hatred in the region is often irrational and passed from one generation to the next meaning we have a never ending circle. We really have to get to a stage where all party's involved can see and accept that military action is never going to resolve anything in that region and an acceptence that while it may not be the best thing for them and what they want now that diplomacy is the only means by which they can all live together and build a positive relationship with one another.

Take the governments out of this and the people themself have managed to live with each other for hundreds of years most of the time peacefully and beneficially for all sides. We have a lot of politics going on here and until obama takes power and states his position officially i don't think this is going to end for now.

It is clear the israeli's are waiting for this they want to establish the same beneficial relationship with an obama led US that they have had in the past. But the one central point is none of this would be happening now if hamas were not complete morons and started firing missiles into Israel that was complete and utter stupidity handing the israeli's an excuse to do all of this.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Damien, whether you're pro Israeli or not is not really an issue for me. My issue is that you feel that the cause of the blockade and Israel's reaction (which admitedly you feel is extreme) is in retaliation to Hamas's firing rockets.

The opression that Israel has imposed on the palestinians, is not something that has just happened since Hamas took power in Gaza. It is not something that has simply started in the last 10 years. You have to remember that a 30 year old Hamas freedom fighter would have spent his entire life under occupation and oppression of some sort or another. He would have not been able to travel freely, he would have been subjected to checkpoints, he would have seen members of his family not allowed or able to find work. He will have most likely been living off aid. Everything he does would be under the watchful eye of Israeli soldiers. They and their government would be controlling his life.

In contrast he would have seen Israeli families build house on his land, and prosper. While he is grwoing up he would have seen fellow palestinians being murdered, he would have attended or seen funerals of children shot down by Israeli soldiers. He might even know of someone who's sister or daughtr was raped, or who's brother or son was shot down by an Israeli soldier simply because he is a Palestinian.

Palestinians in their 30s will have spent their entire live under occupation. They would not have spent one day in their lives feeling they are free. I am not saying other nations in the area haven't contributed but the biggest culpable party in the oppression of palestinians, in the death of palestinians and the destruction of Palestinian land is Israel.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

It would be wrong to portray just the Palestinians as being oppressed since the same is true of the Israelis.

No doubt, we could all find links showing oppression of the Palestinians by the Israelis and find similar links for the oppression of Israel by the Palestinians.

Repeatedly going back over the events of the past trying to portray one side as being better than the other is pointless since they are just as bad as each other.

All the links show is that, at some time, both sides have been oppressed, both sides have used similar military tactics and both sides have committed atrocious acts against children, civilians and military personnel.

We need to stop digging up the past and focusing on the war between Palestinians and Israelis and start thinking about the future and focusing on the peace between Palestinians and Israelis.

We need to take the violence, aggression, bitterness, hatred and blame culture out of the Palestinian-Israeli relationships and using negotiation and goodwill, start to build a fairer, more peaceful region that allows both Palestinians and Israelis to live in peace, trust and security.That won't be an easy task.

However, while the fighting continues that is never going to happen and more people on both sides are going to be unnecessarily killed. Sadly, tonight's television reports will no doubt confirm the truth of this statement.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Fair enough, I was wrong about the blockade, thanks for correcting my ignorance on that :dunce: I then agree that Israel are wrong to impose a blockade because they disagree with result of a democratic election. Although I can see why the reject the choice, electing the government that has a history of attacking your country.

Israel is the worst contributor to the misery of the Palestinians, my point behind of my posts though is that this is not because of some Nazi-esque hatred of Muslims or even the Palestinians, in a way this is just incidental. It's because Israel has a fear of losing their homeland, their freedom, lives and so on. Groups such as Hamas and Hizbollah, backed by countries such as Iran and Syria, do a lot to cause that fear. Unlike the Palestinians though, Israel has the fire-power to alleviate their fear.

It may seem hypocritical that Israel are willing to inflict destruction on a people who are actually living their fears, because it is. However a lot of groups that claim to represent the Palestinians show no interest in a peace, and until that changes then it will keep happening.

Basically, I believe the Israeli government do want a lasting peace at some point, they will support the creation of a Palestinian state. Maybe not the current government of Israel, but the will exists in that country. The will also exists amongst the Palestinians but I cannot see who will step up to represent them and reject the violence of their peers and outside influences.

At the end of the day, International law is rubbish, the UN are toothless, and other governments can only do so much to change the actions of another. Each country acts in their own best interests and tragically for the Palestinians no other country really has their welfare as a key concern. Injustice is the history of most of our world :(

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Both sides are a potential threat to each other for historical reasons and it is just as true to say that the Palestinians are the biggest source of misery to the Israelis as the Israelis are the biggest source of misery to the Palestininians, so there's nothing new there.

Israel is situated in a region surrounded by hostile neighbours who at one time or another over the last 60 years have been responsible for attacks on Israel. If Israel had not had support from the US, it would have gone under years ago.The Palestinians, on the other hand, are surrounded by friendly nationss, which have provided various kinds of support over the years though even they draw the line at supplying a peace-keeping force.

Given that supporters of both Hamas and of Israel are complaining about the loss of lives but continuing to fight, it's not really surprising that other countries don't want to put the lives of their troops and medical staff in the line of fire. As the situation stands, the UN, which relies on the support of these reluctant countries is, as you say, essentially rendered powerless. This means that ending the bloodshed rests in the hands of the two sets of combatants. They are on their own in this conflict.

There are no winners here. Everybody loses. The best we can do at the moment is damage limitation, saving lives and pleading with both sides to agree to the ceasefire, because that's when the talking about the future can begin.

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The protesters are getting rowdy and violent down in London at the moment. Apparently a police officer has been assaulted and missiles have been thrown :(

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

That's the problem with trying to protest about peace..some twonk always wants to get rowdy and undermine the point being made..:rolleyes:

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

The final solution can only be achieved in one way.

It's a fact that Israel exists and there is no way they are going away anytime soon.

It's a fact that the Palestinians need somewhere they can live free from fear and pain.

Both parties have to draw boundary lines and agree to let the others live in peace. They have to each recognise the other's right to a share of this land and sincerely act to create parallel communities.

Until both sides will compromise and agree to meet the other halfway the pain and death will continue.

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Agree mate, Don't think Israel will bide by this though, they carry on building settlements on Palestinian Land even though the settlements are illegal under UN law.

Israel only listens to America, they do not care what the rest of the world thinks about them quite clearly. Unless Obama changes Americas stance on Israel nothing will change.

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I dont want to make light of this whole situation but after reading that comment I had a little giggle Maggy. Not for any bad reason as it is a great statment and I fully agree with you it's just that it kind of sounded like something yoda from star wars would say ;) :)

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Sincerity always has that effect.:(

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I hope I didnt course offence. Its just what popped into my mind as I read it. Sorry :(

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I wouldn't worry, I was thinking of Yoda as well. ;)

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Glad I was not the only one then. Didnt mean to be offensive towards maggy j and hope it was not taken that way.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Unfortunately, I dont believe Israel will consider a ceasefire until it has achieved its objective. Obviously targeting a UN controlled school, which had supplied its position, was a big mistake. As was the tank incident which resulted in the friendly fire deaths.

War isnt the clean "surgical" crap we see in films, its unbelievably dirty, bloody, & mentally demoralizing. Sometimes only your training, & adrenalin stops you from breaking down & just loosing it. The sights you see never leave you, ever.

I am an Atheist. I could never comprehend some men who loose their entire families, & wish no retaliation on the perpetrators. I would want revenge. Fortunately or unfortunately, thats who I am. I suppose their religion helps them through it. I imagine thats why they are unique individuals.

Human beings are capable of indescribable horrors, particularly when they have a "cause". At the end of the day, the ordinary citizen is paying the price for Hamas`s cause, & Israels security. I can not for the life of me seeing an end to this conflict. If its stopped now, it will just spark up again later on.

As with the IRA, Hamas will not win militarily, they must cease all hostilities & use the ballot box. If they continue with their cause, this conflict will not end. Both must put the past aside & work for the future, if they dont, more people, on both sides will die.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Could this be the new Israeli flag

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

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Thats totally inappropriate & offensive m8.

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Amazing how somewhere that was supposedly blockaded so tight the pips squeaked has no shortage of weapons.

The smuggling tunnels must be destroyed, by air or ground attack.

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I agree, this particular symbolism is absolutely disgraceful and as someone who has been told first hand of the atrocities committed against Jewish people by the Nazis, Communists and Ukrainian nationalists in Europe between 1939 and 1945 I find this highly inappropriate :(

In no way do I condone the actions of the present Israeli administation but please do not devalue the lives of those people which have already been needlessly lost by using this symbol of utter hatred.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

but true

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Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Ok, meet each other half way?
So how about the palestinians are given back the land that has been taken from them and a new wall put in place?
How long before the peace is broken?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I see the Israelis are now dropping leaflets on Gaza warning people in 'tageted areas' to leave their homes. Where do they suggest these people go to then - they're already killing entirely innocent people in supposedly 'safe' areas!

Can't they see that for every Hamas member, supporter or sympathiser they kill, many more are being created.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

The rockets are being fired from somewhere in Gaza and Palestinians on the ground will be able to see mobile rocket launchers or militants in their area, which would be a good indicator to non-militants that they should move out of that area.

Gaza is a battlefield so there are no safe areas, but the safer places are probably away from the front lines where the rocket launchers are.

The problem is that rocket launchers are mobile so that this morning's safe area becomes this afternoon's front lines.

As has been said a number of times, Hamas is the legitimate government voted in by the people.They are only now feeling the consequences of allowing Hamas to implement its policies.

By now there must be many areas within Gaza that are inhabitable and unoccupied.If Hamas is choosing to fire rockets why is it that such areas are not used. In that way no non-militants will get in the line of fire. Why is it that they choose to fire rockets from densely populated non-militant areas or use vulnerable places like hospitals and schools?

I'm glad that Israel made the effort to steer non-militants away from targeted areas. Pity really that all genuine non-militants could not be given safe Haven in Egypt until the fighting by Hamas is over.

As for Hamas members, supporters or sympathisers, at the rate things are going, there will be no Hamas members, supporters or sympathisers left to worry about, certainly not in Gaza and that is where it counts.

The world ( and forum members) will watch and wait but there is no cavalry to ride to the rescue as no other country wants to have its own nationals killed, which is understandable.

Everyone worldwide ( and on this forum) will have their own opinion about the rights and wrongs of the matter and we could debate it until Doomsday but the only opinions that count are those of the Palestinians and Israelis because they have the ones with the power to determine their own futures.

Let's pray for the non-militants caught up in this tragedy, who just want to go about their daily lives peaceably and live through the conflict.

Let's hope and pray too that common sense prevails and that the bloodshed stops, because even after all this is over the Palestinians and Israelis are still going to have to find a way to live peaceably together.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Of course, but if the Israelis are going to tell people to seek safe areas they have to ensure they have safe areas to go to. If the UN, Red Cross or whoever tells the Israelis that innocent people are seeking refuge in certain places then the Israelis should ensure they're not bombed or shelled. That poor doctor lost 16 of his family who were sheltering in a school which was supposed to be safe from Israeli attacks!

The Israelis could kill everyone in Gaza and still not be safe. They can't kill hatred. Their actions are creating it around the globe! I repeat something I wrote in an earlier post - there is not a single Jew inside or outside Israel who's safer as a result of this murderous campaign. Quite the reverse!

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

As I said previously there are no safe places on the Gaza battlefield, for either Palestinian or Israeli. The leaflets simply advise non-Militant Palestinians to stay away from militants, but that's easier said than done as the militants are mobile and could turn up anywhere in Gaza.

The leaflets ask non-militants to inform on the militants to shorten the conflict but like everybody else outside Gaza I don't know what the response has been.

Your comment about the doctor is heartbreaking but warfare is not and never has been an exact science and no doubt we will hear of many similar incidents from both sides.

It's quite possible for the Israelis to kill everyone in Gaza either by accident or design. I doubt whether they are interested in World opinion and probably recognise that no matter what they do they will never be totally safe.What they will do is turn Israel into as safe a haven for Israelis as it can be.

Given that this Palestinian-Israeli conflict has been going on since 1947,there is no safe place for Israelis not even in Israel, but neither is there a safe place for Palestinians. The two sides seemed destined to be in conflict for some time.

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Sorry but that's not the impression those who were killed had when they went to that school. The leaflets are telling people to leave their homes but where are they supposed to go? The aid organisations are trying to provide safe areas for those displaced but for reasons best known to themselves the Israelis have attacked some such areas. What on earth is the point of dropping leaflets telling people to move when they don't know where to go and even when they do find supposed refuge they're bombed? Israel's actions are winning them no friends and creating yet more animosity and hatred around the globe. Where is the logic in what they're doing? What's the current tally now? 900 v. a dozen? How many more innocent people are the Israelis prepared to murder? When was the last time 16 entirely innocent members of a single Jewish family were killed by Hamas? The scale and indiscrimination of Israel's actions beggars belief and will serve only to up the ante in respect of reprisals against Jews both inside and outside Israel.

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I do think Israel cares about world opinion as they do not want International journalists to go into Gaza freely. They do not want the world to see what sort of attrocities their soldiers are commiting. I have been watching some footage that has come out of Gaza (i'm assuming it is genuine) over the last week or so and it is truly horrific.

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Yes, their refusal to allow access to independent journalists speaks volumes about what's going on. I still haven't heard a single person successully explain how what Israel is doing is making Jewish people safer.

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Looking at this thread the leaflets do not appear to tell them to leave their homes:-
http://www.psywar.org/forum/index.ph...78.msg787.html

Despite all the deaths, which ARE truly horrific, I suspect that at the end of each day, the Israeli commander-in-chief asks their staff one question.."Have Hamas stopped firing rockets into Israel?" When the commander gets the answer "No", it is assumed that enough has not been done to persuade the Palestinians to cease fire and the Israeli campaign is upped a notch.

Many non-Militant Palestinian deaths could be avoided if the Militants did the following:-

a) requested a ceasefire long enough for the non-militants, the injured and dying to be evacuated from Gaza to Egypt
b) only launched their rockets from areas which were unpopulated
c) dressed in clear Hamas battledress and not in civilian clothing
d) did not use "safe" buildings as valid battle positions

The problem for the Militants is that to do that would be counter to sound battle tactics, because in wartime soldiers on both sides do what is necessary to win however horrific or immoral.

Given that the Palestinian-Israeli conflict has been going on for more than 60 years it is impossible for me to say whether 16 members of the same family have been killed by Hamas because it could have been done by degrees over a number of years. Either way, ANY death, Palestinian or Israeli is tragic and unacceptable especially when it is avoidable.

The world is clearly unhappy about what is happening in Gaza but any action by them at present is likely to come when the conflict is over, which, as we both know, will be too late for many Palestinians. There may well be a lot of ill feeling towards Israelis all over the world but then having said that, it has existed for the last 60 years or so anyway.

To talk of reprisals suggests further acts of violence against Israelis worldwide but they have gone on previously anyway. It also suggests that it is more important to take revenge on Israelis rather than find a mutually acceptable solution which secures a peaceful future equally for Palestinians and Israelis alike.

I suspect that Hamas is going to fight to the bitter end, which is very unfortunate. Many Palestinians will die an unnecessary death. Some Israelis will die too, but in the end both sides will still have to agree conditions for peace.

Pressure from the outside world will not save Hamas because the records of history are written by the victors. I wonder how many injustices have taken place in previous wars round the world that have gone unreported, where the guilty parties have gone unpunished simply because there was no-one left to give their side in the argument or report the facts?

The lack of independent reporting in Gaza simply means that outsiders have no reliable evidence of what is going on since witnesses in Gaza can be biased or mistaken. The only way that will change is if both the Palestinians and the Israelis cease fire, which seems highly unlikely.

Sadly, even the protest in London outside the Israeli embassy degenerated into a violent battle with the police and completely undermined its peaceful purpose.

Hopefully, both sides will learn that, in disputes, violence is not the answer.

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So if they're not being told to leave their homes do we assume their homes safe from attack? If they're not safe what other option do they have?

http://www.oxfam.org.uk/applications...office/?p=2959

Yes the Jews have been victimised for a very long tiime but the difference between then and now is that even those traditionally supportive of Israel's plight are turning against them. How much more evdience do Israel's leaders need before they see that what they're doing is morally wrong, isn't going to solve their problems and will only add to the hatred.

Yes many problems could be solved if there were no militants but in what way is the innocent population responsible for the actions of the minority of militants who are firing rockets? Perhaps we should bomb Parkistan into oblivion because of that country's links with militants and terrorists. What would such action achieve except generate even more hatred and more terrorists? The closest example we've had of a situation similar to that endured by Israel in recent years was the IRA conflict. Did the Govt. resort to the indiscriminate bombing and murder of republican areas and civilians to solve that seemingly insoluble problem? Should we have bombed Dublin? Despite the most grotesque provocation by the IRA and their ilk we didn't resort to that and didn't dialogue prevail in the end?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Firing rockets into Israel is not going to win the Palestinians many friends either.

The campaign started by Israel is designed to stop Hamas firing rockets into Israel.It follows that it will continue until that happens.

In the IRA scenario, soldiers were placed in Ulster to keep the peace, which was not appreciated by either Catholics or Protestants, but at no time did the IRA fire rockets from Ireland or Ulster into England. Even with the soldiers in place there were incidents like "Bloody Sunday" where innocent people were caught up in gunfire between the British Army and the IRA.

I doubt if the Palestinians will like it if, in order to preserve the peace, the Israelis or even the UN place a peace-keeping force into Gaza to stop the violence or the smuggling in of weapons.

We know that there have been deaths on a massive scale. We know that there are many people around the world ( including you and me) who are uphappy about the carnage but what we and others think isn't going to change the fact that Hamas is firing its rockets and Israel is trying to stop them. Israel won't withdraw until the firing of rockets stops. Hamas can do that voluntarily or the Israelis can pound away until there is no-one left who is able and willing to fire rockets. But Hamas won't stop and so it all goes on.

Whichever way you look at it, violence is not the answer because history shows that after each war there are negotiations for peace.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Apropos of nothing, anyone who saw last week's Sun's front page story (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...cle2103995.ece) about EVIL MUSLIMS THREATENING ALAN SUGAR (or words to that effect) might like to know that the Sun got conned by one of these shady 'Extremism Experts'. Apparently the chap went onto an Islamic website and posted under a pseudonym saying 'wouldn't it be great if we drew up a list of British Jews' then sold the story to the Sun. They've taken it down without explanation...

http://www.bloggerheads.com/archives...jenvey_has.asp
http://www.bloggerheads.com/archives...un_no_comm.asp

The other thing to note is how the story was taken up enthusiastically by right-wing US bloggers, who of course support Israel unconditionally. If you find yourself agreeing with such types, ask yourself if they're entirely trustworthy.

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Correct but Eire and parts of the North were used by Republicans for equally murderous ends - the car bombs and mortars brought across the border might not have been rockets but they were just as deadly. How many innocent people were killed by British bombs and white phosphorous in NI?? Does it in any way match the indiscriminate carnage inflicted by Israel in Gaza??

We're going to have to beg to differ on this one I'm afriad. The fact is that Israel is killing more innocent Palestinians than Hamas has ever killed Jews. Unlike Hamas, with very limited means by which to fight, Israel has the latest weapons and equipment and even so is still killing hundreds of innocent men, women and children. I don't condone what Hamas has done in continuing this barbarism the Israelis are showing themselves to be no better than those they claim to be fighting. Indeed for many previously staunch supporters of Israel like me, they're worse! In what way is this action going to make them safer?

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I don't condone what Israel is doing but then again I don't condone the actions of Hamas either. Though the Palestinian firepower is less, it nevertheless has the potential to kill.

I think that we're probably agreed that the scale of the deaths is horrendous, and that many innocent people have lost their lives unnecessarily.

The same was true in Ireland, but unfortunately that's part of the nature of war. When the war stops, for the most part, the deaths stop.

The Israeli action does not make Israelis safer as individually they can be hurt or killed anywhere in the world as they can now. The same is true for Palestinians.

This Israeli campaign is about preserving the sanctity of Israel the state. In other words, it's about providing safety within the bounds of Israel. It won't be total safety but it will be as close as they can get, because they will keep all their enemies at a distance. They blockade Gaza and for the most part shut the suicide bombers out of Israel.

The Israelis want to put the Palestinians in a ghetto without arms so that they can forget about them. As long as the Palestinians are unarmed and harmless, the Israelis will ignore them but if they get weapons that is a different story.

It is a far from happy situation and each night I pray that the fighting will come promptly to an end.

Unfortunately, only the Israelis & Palestinians can do anything about that.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

That, is a logical, well thought out post m8. Your reasoning is spot on.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

http://www.davidicke.com/content/view/19027

I recommend all to read the above link, for those who do not know the history of the area prior to this genocide by the Zionist movement on innocent children.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Unusually Large U.S. Weapons Shipment to Israel: Are the US and Israel Planning a Broader Middle East War?

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11743

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

David Icke!!! you are surly not expecting a balanced account from this loony?
then again from the tone of your post and claims of genocide it appears you have been reading too much from the likes of David Icke.
BTW What is the murder of Israeli children by Hamas rockets or suicide bombers called, or don't they count?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

It's pointless posting links about Israelis killing children because the Palestinians do exactly the same thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childre...inian_conflict

This is a dispute that only the Israelis & Palestinians can sort out for themselves because as things stand they don't appear willing to let anyone intervene.

The only way for the killing of children to be avoided is to get them off the battlefield.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

So we can expected a balanced view from
a) David Icke :D
b) a recommendation from someone using the terms "genocide" and "Zionist movement", not forgetting "innocent children" (never actually seen the term "guilty children" used in conjuction with this topic).

This is the sort of language and emotion (imho) which keeps the conflict fueled.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

You're great value, I'll give you that.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

What because I used the terms Zionist, my views are going to be imbalanced, is that what your saying? Oh please, wake up and smell the cocoa. Zionist is a term used by many and even the Jews know regarding this movement. I mean before world war two, was there or was there not a state of Israel? There wasnt, It was Palestine, who were betrayed into thinking the British government would give them control of their land, if they fought the Ottomon Turks, but they were betrayed.

Facts, simple, why do many of you here fail to see the root of the problems, and please do not say well its very well talkin about the past, but its upto Israel and Palestine to sort their problems out. You really think many arabs are going to watch their land, their homes in which they grew up, to be taken away by Israel and see no hope of return, while Israel sees it as unoccupied and bulldoze it down. Day by day, Israeli settlements grow and grow, which the UN deems as illegal but yet the US have no problems with this matter, if it was the other way round, it would be send the troops to get those bloody arabs out. Wouldnt it lol

Israel talks about taking out Iran due to their nuclear ambitions, which may be genuine, but yet they have a nuclear arsenal and are one of the most militarised nations on earth funded by US of course.

My points above may not be valid to this conflict, however what Im trying to say is this situation is going to be nothing compared to the anger which Israel will face from the new generation of Palestinians who on a day-to-day basis continue to be oppressed.

Ive said it before and ill say it again, Israel is the root of problems in the Middle East as of today. Many of you fail to see Israel did not exist and it exists today on Palestinian land...not rocket science is it, even though other Arab nations do not say this, but they will never be content with Israel amongst them.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Israel the state did not exist until 1948 but the Jewish people, the ancestors of today's Israelis did.

They were one of a number of tribes who lived in Palestine, so in one sense the Israelis are Palestinians too.

There were already problems in Palestine between the Jews and the other tribes but the splitting of Palestine and the creation of Israel in 1948 intensified them and they have grown worse over the last 60 years.

Unfortunately, in order to resolve these problems military solutions were used and that's why we are in the situation we are now.

Perhaps the time has come for the UN and interested parties to review the splitting of Palestine and to come up with a mutually acceptable division of land. I do believe that all sides would prefer a fair peace to an endless war.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Exactly the splitting of Palestinian land, caused by Zionists, even certain jews disagree with their movement as they know this will only cause more hatred and anger.

You do not really believe that many arab muslims will accept Israel, seeing as it didnt even exist, and only exists today because they kicked out the palestinians where they wanted to build their borders?

Look at it this way, my house which I live in now, is invaded and captured by you, according to you, your great great great grandad promised you the land in a diary, in which the house stands on. To keep the neighbours happy with your actions, you allow me a 25% share of the house, as a use of propaganda so the neighbours dont accuse you of brutality and interfere. However you continue to mention you only want peace while I ruin your sky digibox and paint your leather sofas green. But you block my part of the house from food, aid etc. Your not going to get peace, until I get back what you took away from me.

I know the above example is a bit far fetched, however it is exactlty the same principal. If you were that house owner, would you let your house go and live under such blocades. Or would you want back what was yours in the 1st place?

Some may seem my points illogical to this gaza conflict, but like i said peace will never be at hand with Israel existance on Palestinian land in many of those palestinian eyes.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

You seem to be trying to suggest that the Jews/Israelis were never in Palestine and that they invaded and somehow displaced the existing Palestinians. That is not true.There are plenty of maps on the internet to show that the Jews/Israelis lived in Palestine as one of a number of tribes.

The hatred by Arab Muslims is such now that they do not want the Israelis ANYWHERE in Palestine even though they have a perfect right to be there.In some cases, the land occupied by Israel is land gained from one of its aggressive neighbours during a war. It seems that the Arab nations want to feel free to attack Israel but feel aggrieved that Israel should keep the land won as the spoils of war.

If we reset the Middle East map back to the times of Jesus about 2000 years ago, the Jews/Israelis would be living in the middle of Palestine surrounded by various tribes of Arab Muslims.

Even in those times the Jews/Israelis were subject to attack and I'm sure we all remember the tale of David & Goliath, which records their battle with the Philistines.

We also need to remember that most modern day Israelis aren't responsible for what happened 60 years ago in the same way that modern day Palestinians aren't responsible for the acts of their predecessors.

There will never be a perfect solution.There would have to be give and take on both sides. As I see it, the Middle East will continue to be a warzone for the forseeable future and beyond because all the participants favour military solutions to diplomatic ones. So we could still be hearing about this dispute in another 60 years. In the meantime, thousands of innocent people die unnecessarily.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

The 'people of the book' co-existed in this land for many centuries. Not entirely peacefully of course but it worked.

Shame we can't get back to that state of affairs. They all have a historical right to be there but I'm saddened by the current climate of hatred and fear.

For any that have not heard that term before:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

It's not a valid comparison, there were loads of Jews in the region already. The issue was becoming difficult so the UN proposed two states, One for Jews and the other for Arabs. It was the Arabs who rejected this and started attacking Jewish targets (or sky boxes in your analogy).

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Exactly, and after the 67 war the Israeli's came out as the victors and claimed the land as spoils of war, obviously not an ideal outcome for the Palestinians.
But its ridiculous when people claim its all the other sides fault, and that "their side" are the total innocents, this has been going on so long that both sides are at fault and it'll never be sorted unless both sides are willing to compromise.
Israeli or Palestinian, both sides can go back generations siting atrocities from the other but whats the point? it only deepens age old prejudices.
I'm not saying forget whats happened but there is absolutely no chance of finding peace in the past, both sides have to look to the future.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I don't think many people really believe that both sides don't have to share some blame for what's going on. Israel, however, holds almost all the cards around this particular poker table and, as such, needs to understand and exercise the concept of restraint at this point.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7829912.stm

'Mistake' or not, shelling UN compounds isn't doing much to enhance their case with the public. I wonder how many Israelis would be as understanding of such errors if the boot were on the other foot, they were being bombed into oblivion and Hamas kept making mistakes like that.

I can see our friends awaiting entry to the Whitehouse praying that this'll get sorted before Obama takes office and can therefore still claim some sort of mitgation for the lack of action by the US.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

The Israelis said they would stop their action when Hamas stopped firing the rockets but as Hamas are continuing, in spite of all their casualties, to fire the rockets it seems likely that the campaign will continue.

The shelling of UN compounds is unfortunate, which is presumably why aid agencies are staying out of the region. However, in a war zone it is possible for agency staff to be killed by either side so it is understandable that they do not want to put their lives at risk.

Israel could withdraw tomorrow but Hamas would still keep firing rockets as there has been no statement from them saying the rocket bombardment would stop, so Hamas do not seem to believe in exercising restraint either.

Israel are pounding the Palestinians as an example to others in the region to let them know what they can expect if they try to take offensive action.

I expect and agree that by the time Obama gets into power this skirmish will probably be over. However, the unwillingness of Hamas to stop firing rockets will only serve to convince him that Israel needs US help more than ever.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

So your contention is that Hamas must act first and Israel then follow? The problem is that I don't think if Hamas stopped firing rockets tomorrow Israel would a) stop it's action and b) give back that which it's taken. Perhaps the possibility that Hamas agrees with my cynical view answers the question as to why they don't stop firing rockets.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Hamas has not tried the ceasefire option so we do not know what Israel will do. Hamas could request a ceasefire and ask that UN observers or indeed a peacekeeping force be immediately in place at the moment of cessation to ensure that Israel withdrew.

It is worth remembering that Hamas had the option to cease fire BEFORE Israel even moved into Gaza as the Israeli tanks collected on the Gaza border and Israel had stated its intention to invade.

As for giving things back, nothing was said by Israel about that.They merely stated that they would invade Gaza if Hamas kept firing rockets and true to their word they did.

Any negotiations re: the splitting of Palestine would require arbiters like the UN or some other organisation to provide a forum for discussions and to note the concessions, compromises and agreements made by both sides. Another possibility would be to go though the International courts.

Appeals for the Israelis to show restraint are wasted at the moment as Hamas have demonstrated that they intend to keep firing rockets. Each day the Palestinian death toll gets higher but the world just watches as they will not sending personnel into the area until a ceasefire is announced.There may be plenty of diplomatic action to bring about the ceasefire but neither Hamas or Israel seems interested at the moment.

If the Hamas leader wants to keep firing rockets then he must be prepared to see more and more of his people killed, unless they can be evacuated to safety. However, the choice of what action to take lies with the Palestinians, who have yet to state their intentions.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

If you were the leader of Hamas and your land was being blockaded by Israel what would you do?

Israel does not want to lift the blockade for a ceasefire, Hamas has said they will have a ceasefire which includes them stop firing rockets, the blockade lifted and Israel leaves Gaza but Israel has refused this.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Unfortunate? That's an interesting way of putting it. Burning humanitarian supplies and people in a refugee camp with White Phosphorus is indeed unfortunate.
Firstly, Isreal broke the ceasefire in the beginning - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4

Secondly, Hamas wants a ceasefire - http://news.antiwar.com/2009/01/14/h...-in-principle/

Israel is now bombing UN refugee camps, buildings used by journalists/reuters (information war) and 2nd largest hospital in Gaza with 500 people inside.

I don't think "restraint" and "Israel" really go in the same sentance, do you?

Israel is massacaring civilians, and has killed over 1000 people, over 2/3 of them are women and children. Using white phosphorus on a densely populated area like Gaza is probably a war crime. They are breach of the UN ceasefire resolution, not to mention they have more UN Security Council resolutions against them than any other country. That's with the U.S. Veto. Sounds like "restraint" to me.

I doubt that very much. Defence Minister Ehud Barak and Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni both want a ceasefire - http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055473.html

Olmert embarrassed the Americans by claiming to control U.S foreign policy by forcing Condi to abstain from the last resolution. Obama has spoken out agains the aggression. If it's still ongoing when he gets in, you can be sure he will condemn it and hopefully act quickly. His foreign policy advisor Zbig is also feared by the Zionists. Economic sanctions would be the best option in my opinion.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

If Gaza is blockaded where are the weapons coming from? As far as I can see they are coming from tunnels connecting Gaza with Egypt.

Why should Israel lift the blockade when it is clear that the main purpose of having the blockade lifted is to import more weapons?

If I was the Hamas leader I would put my prejudices and hatred to one side and be using the tunnels to bring in much needed aid and resources for my people and doing as much as possible to build up trust and a better relationship with Israel. Instead of importing weapons Hamas could have been building a prosperous state.

As things stand, taking this military action against Israel has resulted in massive loss of life and massive damage to the Gaza infrastructure. Palestinians are now a lot worse off than they were before.

If Hamas feels that they have a valid case they should take it to a international tribunal and try to resolve it peacefully and without bitterness. Not only does this save lives and avoid damage, it demonstrates that you are going for a legal or diplomatic solution to the problem not a military one.

After all, no-one, Palestinian or Israeli, likes to feel threatened.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Errmmm... how many UN resolutions is Israel in breach of again?....

Perhaps Israel could try discriminating better, in it's blockade, between rockets/arms and food/medical supplies. That might win them a few friends and even change a few minds....

And what about all those innocent people who have no time for Hamas at all but are suffering because of Israel's patent lack of restraint and indiscriminate tactics? For every Hamas operative they've killed dozens have probably been created amongst the families who've been murdered so where is this going to end for Israel

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

So blockading Gaza has prevented rockets being fired into Israel?

Hamas does not just bring in weapons, they bring in vital food and aid supplies through these tunnels which Israel does to a bare minimum through the crossings.

This is due to Israel, i do not know how they can say Hamas are bombing and killing the Palestinians when they clearly are not. Israel is directly hitting Palestinians.

I think we all know this will achieve nothing, Israel does not care what the international community thinks about it. This is clearly shown by the amount of UN resolutions Israel in in breach of.


One day they will pay the price for their inhumane actions.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I think to some extent we are going over old ground.

For the last 60 years, both Israel and the Palestinians have been guilty of some atrocious acts.

They have both employed the same methods and have been responsible for the killing or maiming of thousands of men, women and children so neither side is innocent here.

As long as the fighting goes on more people will die so the first priority has to be a ceasefire.

Neither side is paying attention to the International Community, despite the fact that the conflict has been condemned and there have been many pleas for a ceasefire.

The scale of deaths is horrendous but no other country will place troops or personnel in Gaza unless there is a ceasefire.

The situation will not be resolved unless there is a ceasefire.

Maybe, it will continue until Obama is active as President. Will he persuade Israel to stop? And how will he do it? If he stops supporting Israel, will the Palestinians still continue to attack?

There still seems to be a revenge element to our discussions. No-one is looking for a peaceful solution or a legal solution to the problem. Are we talking about Israel being accused of war crimes in an International court or are we talking about the wholesale massacre of Israelis? If the latter, then that's no better than the wholesale massacre of Palestinians.

Given too that there does not appear to be any faith in the International community, where do we go from here? Economic sanctions take time to work.The death toll in Gaza could be well into the thousands by then.

The only country capable of influencing Israel is probably the USA. If Israel remains uninfluenced what would you expect the USA to do? Suppose the only solution was a military one. Would the Palestinians really want an American peacekeeping force in Gaza to keep out the Israelis? Though such a force would offer protection and possibly support to rebuild Gaza, they would also prevent Palestinians from arming.

On the other hand, would the Americans really want to enter another theatre of war while they have troops in Afghanistan and Iraq? Maybe they will opt as you suggest for the sanctions and diplomatic moves until the fighting stops, which may be some time.

Once the fighting stops, the question to ask is what happens next? How will the Palestinian-Israeli matter be resolved?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

This blame football is wonderful isn't it either side kicking it to the other when it suits them. Both groups have an equal share of responsibility for what has happened and trying to blame one side more then the other is hardly a good start to any diplomatic process is it. How stupid do you have to be to fire rockets at a superior military opponent and then to keep it up after they have taken offensive action.

Hamas are doing it hoping to expand this conflict into a wider conflict trying to get their so called arab friends to jump in as well. Israel at some point has a lot of questions to answer and personally until such time as they are prepared to act in accordance with international law they should be expelled from the UN. Also the US needs to stop protecting Israel from international responsibility for it's actions. This is not a simple situatio that has a simple solution it will take many years and being honest a change in the leadership of both sides before we can even begin diplomacy.

There is never going to be a solution while either side has a grip on the past and won't let that go. That is not to say the past isn't important but no forward progress can be made till both sides are prepared to forgive past conflicts and are prepared to compromise for the good of all their people.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Totally agree.

SE917, You asked: "If you were the leader of Hamas and your land was being blockaded by Israel what would you do"?

I would like to answer that question if I may. As leader, I would look at the number of my fellow citizens, who are dying, for my beliefs. The children have no politics, & no preference as to who governs their land. They just want to live.

I would assess my position & call an immediate halt to all hostilities. My organisation is in turmoil, & to continue with this campaign will only result in more civilian casualties. I would sue for peace. I would use the ballot box to encourage a regime change, & seek to live in peace with my neighbours.

Instead, we see Hamas, continuing to put its fellow citizens in harms way, it is trying to alienate Israel from the rest of the ME. This conflict has sod all to do with the Gaza strip, its more to do with an organisation who prefers the terror option, to the political one.

That said, I also think Israel has used excessive force in the area. It is killing more Civillians than is acceptable. (Dont come back at me for the use of the term acceptable, take it as read). The use of certain weapons in a built up area is designed for use against military targets only. I initially expected ground troops & Armour, I did not expect them to use this amount of force.

Hamas is using this as a propaganda & media weapon, & Israel is falling right into the trap. The time has come for this conflict, to halt.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

There are plenty of innocent people in Gaza who have no time for Hamas but are still being bombed and killed. What are they supposed to do about it? On the other hand, Hamas are probably delighted at the burgeoning support they will undoubtedly have as a result of all this and if that takes sacrificing some of their own to that end they probably couldn't care less.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Sadly, the death of innocent people is an inevitable consequence of war. In probably every war that's occured innocent people have been killed. The safest place is off the battlefield probably near the Egyptian border but away from the tunnels and other strategic targets.

If Hamas gets support it won't be in Gaza. Hamas has used its fellow Palestinians as human shields. At some time,there will be elections again in Gaza. If the Palestinians want peace they won't elect Hamas. If they want revenge and are prepared to accept the consequences they will continue to elect Hamas but I think it is unlikely as they will be too busy burying their dead and repairing the damage from this conflict.

Hamas already has support outside Gaza, from Egypt for one so nothing has really changed, unless we find tunnels leading elsewhere. Israel on the hand are likely to tighten security in Gaza particularly with regard to militants.

The fighting still continues; more innocent people continue to die;diplomatic talks regarding a ceasefire plod on so at present we are no nearer to a peace.

The Palestinians and Israelis really need to look to the future and need to find a way to bring about a sustainable peace.Without it the two nations will destroy themselves killing many innocent people in the process.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

There was a ceasefire. Israel did not adhere to the terms, specifically to open the border to allow humanitarian aid in so Gaza was no longer like a concentration camp. Israel also broke the ceasefire.
Regime change? They already had a democratic election, and Hamas was elected. Hamas "militants" are the army of the democratically elected government. Hamas police are the police force of the democratially elected government. The only regime that needs changing is the unelected, puppet "government" of Abbas and Fatah, who stand idly by while Israel expands settlements in the West Bank in violation of more UN Resolutions.
Well that assumes that Hamas broke the ceasefire, which they did not. Perhaps you can explain to me how Hamas is putting their citizens in harms way when the borders of Gaza, a DENSELY populated area, are sealed and the people have nowhere to go and it is Israel that is killing people. Over 1100 of them now.
You could not be more wrong and could not be more brainwashed. Hamas is a terrorist group because...the western media says so? It's pretty clear to me who is causing the most terror right now - a disproportionate amount of force (the terror option) in violation of multiple international laws and UN resolutions (the political option).

I would suggest to you that this conflict is more about crushing democratically elected Hamas because they are not sympathetic to the US/UK/Israel empire-building strategy that is currently being executed in the middle east (Afganistan, Iraq, even Kuwait). Once Hamas is crushed, Fatah will conveniently take power, and of course they are sympathetic to U.S interests.

Perhaps you might be persuaded to think outside the mainstream media message box for 5 mins: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...xt=va&aid=7928

How many civilians do you think it is acceptable to kill to gain geopolitical power?
You do have a short memory. Lebanon was flattened.
Erm no. Hamas is using the deaths of Palestinians as propoganda? You seem to have everything back to front. It is Israel that is engaging in an information war, shelling the buildings of journalists already in the Gaza strip, lying about the use of white phosporus, and censoring any other journalists by blocking their entrance. Egypt, of course, sadly is participating. Hell, the Israeli consulate in New York even launched a PR campaign on Twitter to spread more propaganda. Perhaps its time for you to broaden the scope of outlets that you get information from.
Geez, glad we agree on something.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

A point of information if I may - Hamas won elections, but they were legislative elections, not presidential ones. So, they were not, and are not, a legitimate government in Gaza or anywhere else. They won the right to hold the government to account, and to pass laws, but they do not have the right to run the army or the police. And they certainly didn't have the right to take control, by force, from those that did have the right to run them, namely Fatah.

The legitimate government of Gaza is holed up in the West Bank, under the leadership of Mahmoud Abbas. Like him or loathe him, he's the man.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Strange thing though that after Hamas were elected one of the first acts they carried out was the murder of their Fatah opponents.
Also just because they were elected doesn't carry some guarantee that other democracies have to talk to them, why should anyone deal with an organization that calls for the death of all Jews anywhere in the world.



"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

This one in particular sums up Hamas.



Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).

These statements are all from the Hamas Charter, why should any right minded person deal with such nihilistic views, democratically elected or not.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Rubbish, Hamas won the election, get over it! I ain't Muslim, I ain't a Hamas supporter but Hamas is the legitimate government. And don't forget our Sauerkraut Liz ain't elected here either.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Nice to see a reasonable rebuttal on the forum.....;)

btw, SK's first British-born ancestor was born in this country in 1738 (George III), so I am fairly sure (imho) she can be counted as British; and I didn't realise Hamas were going to use the "unelected monarchy" excuse as a reason for ruling....:D

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

OK. Well, for starters I don't recall saying that Hamas didn't win the election. But seeing as you weren't able to understand that rudimentary point, I'm not going to ask you to stretch your brain cell to the extent that would be required for you to grasp the difference between an executive and a legislature.

Funny, though, how you can be so basically ignorant of how our own system works, yet you're mad keen to weigh in like an armchair expert on the Middle East.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Hey, Frank, If you dont like my post, tuff. I gave my opinion, & thats all. No, I'm not brainwashed, but clearly you are, believing all that crap you posted. Are these your opinions or facts? If they are facts, provide the links.

Step down off the bandwagon & try to see to whole picture, instead of the one in the tunnel. Your post is not biased is it!

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Hmm well I think that is debateable tbh. The previous leader of Fatah, Arafat, died in suspicious circumstances, confined to a compound by the Israelis, which made way for a Presidential election.

After the parliamentary elections you refer to, Fatah resigned all cabinet positions and assumed the role of the official opposition. So Abbas may technically be the President for 4 years if you can call the election democratic, although of course any Palestinians living as refugees and exiles outside the territories (from which they did not have free movement) were barred from the election.

In light of that, I would argue that the legitimate government is not holed up in the West Bank. The majority of people voted for Hamas, and Fatah resigned their cabinet positions. Plus the US administration funded and armed Abbas's Presidential Guard and Gaza based Fatah warlord, Mohammed Dahlan, to try and undermine Hamas and their election because it was not in the U.S interest.

Abbas is a U.S. puppet and Hamas has the majority in the legislative assembly, simple as that. Not that Hamas is blameless, to be fair. But Fatah is hardly the legitimate government.

---------- Post added at 21:07 ---------- Previous post was at 21:03 ----------

That is one of the weakest rebuttals ever. State, what point do you disagree with and provide a logical argument as to why, and I will happily clarify my argument with links. My post is biased...because you disagree? I am not Palestinian or Israeli, so it is stupid to claim my post is biased.

If you are referring the ceasefire, you can (ironically) see the CNN factcheck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I don't think it really matters which party is in charge. What matters is how they are going to find a peaceful solution to the differences between the Palestinians and Israel.

The Middle East has traditionally been a volatile, political region and I think everyone concerned wishes that differences could be resolved sufficiently for it to become a stable, peaceful area.

In this conflict, both sides have wasted vast amounts of money and resources in the war effort, which could have been put to more profitable use building a thriving economy, social facilities and safer environments for all. Instead they will have to allocate yet more resources to repairing the damage from this conflict but unfortunately,you can't bring the dead back to life and even with our advanced medical knowledge there are some injuries that just cannot be repaired. Nor can you easily eradicate the bitterness and hatred in Palestinian-Israeli relations.

The first step is to get the ceasefire, but after that Fatah , Hamas and Israel need to resolve their differences and jointly create a plan for Palestine that they can all accept and live with peacefully as the current arrangements are clearly not working.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

just on bbc news -the UN is accusing israel of war crimes over school bombing

sorry cant find a link

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Seen the footage papa.
America should be ashamed of its backing for Israel, but its of no surprise to me.
The whole thing is a sorry episode that will never be sorted, and certainly not by america backing Israel.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7834255.stm

Another UN school hot by Israel.

Seems there could be a truce coming soon, just about time when Bush leaves and Barrack Obama enters the scene.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Anyone hear Gerald Kaufman's Common's speech the other day

SIR Gerald Kaufman, the veteran Labour MP, yesterday compared the actions of Israeli troops in Gaza to the Nazis who forced his family to flee Poland.

During a Commons debate on the fighting in Gaza, he urged the government to impose an arms embargo on Israel.

Sir Gerald, who was brought up as an orthodox Jew and Zionist, said: "My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town a German soldier shot her dead in her bed.

"My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza. The present Israeli government ruthlessly and cynically exploits the continuing guilt from gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the Holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians."

He said the claim that many of the Palestinian victims were militants "was the reply of the Nazi" and added: "I suppose the Jews fighting for their lives in the Warsaw ghetto could have been dismissed as militants."

He accused the Israeli government of seeking "conquest" and added:

"They are not simply war criminals, they are fools."

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news...a_to_nazis.php

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Just found this:
link
......perhaps someone can find a better link?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

The conflict has been fueled by the nations providing support on both sides.

Gaza has become the battlefield where America and the Arab Nations use their influence and support to vie for control of Palestine and the Middle East.

As a result, the Palestinians and Israelis have never really addressed the Palestine issue but have spent a lot of time and lives fighting over it.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Palestine is and always has been a chessboard for bigger players then either the Israeli's or the Palestinian's and always will be thats why no solution is going to happen soon because even if both sides in direct conflict could come to an agreement the others playing games don't seem interested as long as it isn't their lives that are being lost.

As for all this talk of the "effective" Israeli blockade come on it's that effective that hamas has a large amount of rockets to fire so if they can get weapons in they could easily get more food and humanitarian supplies in they simply choose to get weapons instead. We have numerous people on here constantly telling other members to look at both sides while constantly supporting one and bashing the other they are both to blame to a degree and both of them are not to blame for the reason above so a little more even handedness on here would be a start.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I didn't relay want to rebut your claims, because your posts are totally one sided. I see no reason to debate a subject with someone, who has a closed mind. I dont relay get involved with politics. Like everyone else on here, I know very little about this situation.

This post, & the post I made earlier was a personal view, based on my experience as a soldier, & a guy who`s sick & tired of conflict. One of the reasons this conflict is not easily resolvable is because no one will let the past go. They, like you, prefer to wallow in the past, & drag up as much crap as they can to bolster their arguments.

Both sides believe they are right, & no one will actually listen to the other without arguing the toss. Their time would be better spent trying to find a solution to the problem, than to keep dragging up the past.

I asked peeps not to question me regarding "Acceptable civilian casualties". You did. There is no answer. It depends on so many variables, & the importance of the task. I am not a military planner. However, there are, & have been, tasks where civilian casualties are acceptable. Army officers also have the power to deploy their own men, in situations where death is certain.

Every Officers duty is to his soldiers, & the task in hand. There is nothing more important to them, than a successful mission. This conflict is not solely about the Gaza. The world is dividing, countries are taking sides. The repercussions of this conflict are global. Personally, I want it to stop, right now. But as long as there are flag wavers & soapbox merchants, I cant see it happening.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Everyone who has served in the military knows damn well in any operational planning there is a figure of acceptable civilian casualties and always has been only thing that differs is the amount pending on the army\regime planning the offensive action.

SMG was making a valid point and wasn't saying he agreed there should be civilian casualties but that it is an inevitable result of any nation conducting offensive operations.

We all want this to end sooner rather then later but as people posting on a forum what we may or may not want is neither here nor there and certainly isn't going to influence anyone or anything one iota so perhaps we can all remember this is a debate and have less of the personal attacks as most of us live in the UK where we are free to have whatever opinions or views we wish no matter how wrong or misguided they may seem to others. If one member really annoys you too much with their view\opinion then you use the ignore feature and problem is solved.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

What, not Iran?

The Israelis have lost this one, by the way, just as in 2006. Ceasing fire and withdrawing while Hamas are still around and capable of firing rockets is not what was intended at the beginning. Israel's part-time armed forces put a huge strain on the economy, which being run on Western neo-liberal lines these days, is hardly going to be able to take prolonged mobilisation of their best people plus worldwide recession. The Gazans, who aren't in a position to worry about global recessions, will multiply like rabbits as usual and we'll be back to square one, but with a new breed of Hamas leader even nastier than the last lot, and with firm support.

Cue the Israeli propaganda machine. If you see a chap called Mark Regev anywhere, he's lying. Even if he tells you the sky is blue, get a second opinion.

Also, every time Israel do this, they lose a little bit more support in the world. Watch the Turks.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Ceasefire announced. Israel has called a ceasefire. Lets see if Hamas want peace or not.:nono:

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

They won*, so by definition they have what they want.

* If you start a war to achieve a particular political goal and don't achieve it, the other guy won, no matter how many men he lost.