Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I find that very difficult to believe.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Indeed! I don't think any law firm would advise you to basically do a runner!

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

D/L wouldn't ;)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

ive spent a considerable amount of time searching for previous cases, there is only one and that is the case where the woman didnt turn up. ive been told by a solicitor and trading standards that they dont have enough evidence to take the individuals to court!

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Yup only 1 documented, and that wasn't even defended. I am sure that if some poor punter had lost to them they would be making a real song and dance, and that summons would have increased.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

that was what i was thinking. i recieved my third letter the other day. ive decided to ignore this one due to the fact they didnt even bother to read the last two i sent.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Anyone got any idea how to get them into court?

The problem is that if you want to make a defence, you need to supply some documentation and evidence of your own, and since they have to receive copies they will know you intend to fight them and instantly drop the case. I suppose you could try and just keep quiet until the day of the hearing, but it might be difficult to win... I guess you could always ask for a delay to sort your documentation out, and by that point DL would be committed so even if they dropped you could claim victory.

The only other thing I can think of doing is to sue them to stop sending me letters.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

What about an idea to keep them out of court? Apologies if this has been posted before.

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov.uk/sub_our_role_vex.htm

What is a vexatious litigant?

A vexatious litigant is someone who is prevented by a court order from issuing proceedings without leave of the court. Such orders may be either for a specified period of time or indefinite, and may apply to civil proceedings, criminal proceedings or both.

How does a person become a vexatious litigant?

Under section 42 of the Supreme Court Act 1981 and section 33 of the Employment Tribunals Act 1996, the Attorney General may apply for an order against a person who has litigated "habitually and persistently and without any reasonable ground". The precise number of proceedings required to meet the test is not specified in the legislation, but normal cases involve at least five or six vexatious actions (25000 at the last count!). The court will take into account all the surrounding circumstances including the general character of the litigation, the degree of hardship suffered by defendants and the likelihood of the conduct continuing if an order is not obtained.

How is the Attorney informed about potential vexatious litigants?

Members of the public write to the AGO and to Treasury Solicitor's Department to ask the Attorney to apply for an order. There is no formal procedure for such complaints. Treasury Solicitor's Department then undertakes an investigation into the conduct of the individual concerned, in accordance with an agreement between the AGO and the Treasury Solicitor as to the appropriate steps and the time limits within which those steps should be completed. The opinion of Counsel is normally obtained before seeking the authorisation of the Law Officers.

What happens after an order is made?

Lists are prepared of persons against whom section 42 orders have been made and these are circulated to court offices, so the system is largely self policing. The list is also available on the Court Service website. Occasionally, individuals subject to an order succeed in issuing cases without leave of the court. In these cases, the Attorney General must decide whether to bring contempt of court proceedings.

What is the Attorney General doing to resolve the problem?

The Attorney places a high priority on protecting members of the public and employees of the court service from abuse and harassment at the hands of vexatious litigants, and on preventing the obstruction of the court system(25000 court cases will certainly tie up the court!). He maintains an ongoing dialogue with relevant members of the High Court judiciary, the President of the Employment Appeal Tribunal and the Department for Constitutional Affairs to ensure a joined up approach in this area with new strategies constantly being considered.

Is there any other way to stop vexatious behaviour?

Recently, the number of applications for orders under section 42 or section 33 has been reduced, largely as a result of the developing jurisdiction in relation to civil restraint orders ("CRO"s). CROs last for two years only and are more variable in scope than section 42 or section 33 orders. A court does not have to make a CRO before making a section 42 order, and in making a CRO, a court must consider whether it gives sufficient protection to the public. The Civil Proceedings Rules now require a court to make a record where any application is considered to be totally without merit. At the same time, the court must consider whether to make a CRO.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I`m not a lawyer but this sounds good...

...who would "apply" though?

.....would have to be people who have recieved letters and lots of them!

unfortunately the brittish are notoriously bad at organising this sort of mass action (unless it involves kicking in windows/rival footie fans);)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

So 1100110101 can use Google.

Well done, I'm proud of you.

After all, cutting and pasting a load of text is the same as having an actual understanding of what it's saying. :rolleyes:

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Actually... to be fair this is a realistic (but tenuous) possibility.

I would not normally comment on posts like this due to not being legally trained but I was on the fringe of a court case where the defense was considering this as an option. I cannot comment further due to risking my job

Before you all jump on me consider the following...

even if the above was merely "cut n pasted" it does (read it) suggest that this is an option to be seriously considered - That the upside!

...the downside is - Who the hell would organise it????? - to "work" a LOT of people would need to complain to the attorney general and I mean a lot.
Surely a full time job and logistical nightmare, for a start the present anonimity of posters on this thread would have toi turn into real names and addressess!!!!!!!! and the number of people admitting to having recieved a letter on this thread isn`t any where near enough in my opinion

Right I`ve got me coat and I am off into the air raid shelter:o:

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Perhaps that was part of the point of bringing it to the attention of people on the forum?

From my reading of it, it looks more like something you would do when they actually start litigating. At the moment they aren't litigating, they're jsut sending out nasty letters.

IF they start going to court and IF there are sufficient numbers of cases then I think this would definitely be an avenue to think about (you've got a point about organising it, tho!).

Assuming their evidence base doesn't change (it won't) Then there is definitely an argument to be made that it is vexatious litigation. That is possible one reason why they probably will never take a reply and denyer to court.

The other interesting point at the moment (also raised by 1100110101) is the fact that the Norwich Pharmecal orders attained by Davenport Lyons to make the ISPs stump up your details have provisions to prevent them going on a fishing expedition with the details they obtain from them.

I would think asking the accused whether they'd undertaken any investigations, and for details about their router set up, network configuration would count as this. Now the question is how to take action along those lines.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

oooooooooops! fair point Penumbra

.....DL arent actually litigating (much)

more like "professional (sic) extraction of money with menaces"

how about an extortion charge????;) - Answers to that one NOT required!:angel:

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

People are reading this thread because they've received letters and want to know what to do. If they make the wrong decisions it could cost them £thousands as a result.

This thread is now 35 pages long. Way too much of it is legal advice from people who clearly have not got a clue how the law works. They think that because they can do a search on Google it equates to actual knowledge and understanding. That's all very well if someone's asking how to fix the remote control on their TV. It's a different story when someone could walk themselves into an expensive court judgement as a result of following their advice.

My response to binary boy was indeed sarcastic. I chose sarcasm as an alternative to plain abuse, which is not allowed on this forum. He signed up to post something which is absolutely of no value whatsoever to anyone who has received one of these letters. If I've upset anyone - and through the magic of PMs and the reputation system you can be sure that I have - then I really could not care less. My purpose to posting was to put a brake on the sea of useless and misleading drivel that is clogging up this thread and may possibly cause the people who really need the thread to lose money.

So if you want a genuine answer to the vexatious litigant question: I'm going to provide that by asking you another question instead. See if you can Google the answer to this: since 1997, how many companies have been added to the list of UK Vexatious Litigants?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

But you can go about achieving this noble goal in a different way.

Seeing as you clearly have a wealth of legal knowledge, and are very well versed in the matter, how about saying something along these lines:

There is no need for the attitude. We're just looking for answers, and to know where we stand. Out of interest - where else in the thread's is such dangerous advice contained?

After all, if you want to avoid someone walking into a legal rake, that's the best thing to do. Point them out and give reasons why. We will listen and learn.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I think next time I'm going to respond by sending them a demand for money, based on my "evidence" that their IP address was used to download something of mine. By simply mirroring their demands I will be able to discover what defence they themselves would use.

In other words, they will be either forced to pay up or give me an argument that would defeat their own demands.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

:):):):) lol - brilliant idea!

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

No. The best way to help someone avoid a legal rake is to not pretend to give them legal advice.

This Google advice is going to give people a false sense of security and lead them straight into the rake.

This thread has some useful information from people who have travelled along the same path but it's important that people realise that their circumstances might be subtly but fundamentally different; different evidence, changed approach by DL, that kind of thing. Advice by Google is never going to pick that up.

There's also some useful info from people pointing out that these are civil proceedings and not criminal proceedings for example, but what they can't do is explain to an individual person who's received one of these letters how that should effect them specifically.

The problem with Google law is that it never, ever, gets all the context behind what's been searched for, and that is absolutely vital. And even if some by miracle it did hit all the context, Google law isn't going to tell YOU as an individual what you're best approach should be.

And if it really is double miracle week and it does; who are you going to complain to if the advice is wrong and you get slapped with a £10k judgement?

If you still insist on me giving you a bit of advice after all of that, then it's:

Don't ignore the letter, get yourself some proper legal advice.

Happy?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

All the cases and circumstances are the same. DL have an IP address and maybe a screenshot for evidence. That does not identify any individual or any particular computer. As the burden of proof is on them, they have no case.

It's a simple extortion racket. Pay up or we will sue you.

Luckily, as long as you just keep telling them you didn't do it and to go away, they will never take you to court since they want to avoid setting a precedent at all costs.

Specifically, it means that there is no way you can get a criminal conviction or criminal record. At the worst, you would end up owing them money, or more likely they would end up owing you your costs.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

just to update those who are following the thread. i was contacted today by a person from Westminster trading standards. he has asked me to forward copies off the letters. he stated he will be organising a meeting with Davenport to discuss these letters. He couldnt comment on other letters he had recieced, but the impresion i got was that what they are doing is clearly wrong, they are trying to establish if its actulally legal, but Davenport wont give them copies of the letters they are sending out. The plot thickens. if anyone wants this guys phone number to pass discuss there case then contact me via the pm function. I would advise anyone who recieves these letters not to pay a penny!

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Although a lot of the advise given here is not aimed at one particular individual case, it's proved invaluable to myself as without it, I just 'may' have paid up.

There is a 'feel' to the thread, and it's a feeling of don't give in to the parasites! I do hope that someone will come up with an answer to all our letter woes, but it's doing a damn good job at the moment without it. While the people that are actually watching this thread whom have received a letter, refuse to pay... It's all good for the cause.

Bugs me when peeps who may not have legal backgrounds are trying to help and they're getting shot down in flames simply for trying to help. It's up to the reader who's advise he/she takes.

In short because I'm rambling... Thanks again :D

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Very interesting, ljc. What Davenport Lyons are doing is probably legal, in that you can send anyone you like a demand for money, but it's probably in breech of the code of practice for law firms.

The fact that they will not allow a test case to go through the courts doesn't help their position. Hopefully either Trading Standards or the legal watchdog will stop them.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

the chap from westminster trading standards was very keen to persue this. i wlll keep you updated. again i would strongly advise not to pay. it is important to note that there does not seem to be one case that has gone to court, and the simple fact is they havnt got the evidence to take this to court! the only reason why they went to court for the test case is due to the fact the other part did not show, and they knew that. ive told them i will see them in court as i have done nouthing wrong.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

For those who have not yet seen one, here is a sample letter from DL:

http://wikileaks.org/wiki/UK_piracy_...2C_18_Nov_2008

I can verify that it is very similar to the letters I have received.

There are many, many flaws in those letters. For example, they present an IP address, but have not established that it can be tied to the individual they sent the letter to. They also don't show that any copyright infringement (i.e. transfer of copyrighted data) took place. "Making available via P2P networks" does not equal copyright infringement, in the same way that someone might "make available" their CD collection to their friends but do not actually infringe copyright until they actually record a tape or burn a CD-R.

They also claim that the alleged copyright infringement is "illegal", which is totally untrue. Only copyright infringement on a commercial scale is illegal. Non commercial infringement is only a civil matter.

The letter is written in a very threatening tone. They mention the potential "thousands of pounds" that could be awarded as costs to the loosing party, however in reality a court is highly unlikely to ever award that much. Consider also that since DL have failed to show that any actual transfer of data took place, and even if they could it would only have have been to the investigator's computer, at most they could only claim damages for a single transfer, or the value of the file involved. At most, that would be the cost of a single DVD, maximum £20. Under UK law, compensation is only awarded to undo actual loss incurred, i.e. £20. Asking for £500 is a joke.

DL also do serious damage to their case by providing detailed instructions for payment, setting an artificial deadline and making the absurd claim that their client is entitled to a far larger amount. By doing so they illustrate the commercial nature of their extortion operation. You simply do not send letters like this if you have a legitimate claim to make.

The letter is confirmation of all the points myself and others have made in the past. Specifically:

1. They admit that an IP address does not identify an individual.

2. They admit that they did not download a copy of the file from the IP address in question.

3. They do not state how the IP address was collected, but presumably it was from one of the trackers for the torrent, which of course can and do provide inaccurate information. They do not appear to have taken any steps to verify this information at all, despite many trackers, including the popular Pirate Bay, regularly add random IP addresses to their trackers.

4. They admit that they do not have any evidence of copyright infringement, merely that the IP address in question may have offered parts of the file in question at some point.

5. They do not show that the entire file may have been available on the IP address in question, and in fact all P2P applications will upload parts of a file before the download is complete. It is unlikely that small parts of a larger copyrighted work would be considered for copyright infringement.

6. They do not show that the IP address deliberately shared the file in question, which for example could have been renamed to linux.torrent and innocently downloaded.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

similar to the letter that was sent to me. good find. after speaking to the chap from trading standards he has advised me to pass onto others that recieve these letters to contact consumer direct. they will log the complaint and then if need be he will get in touch directly with the individual. google the info for consumer direct. i cant strongly emphasise not to pay any amount off money to these "sharks" thanks.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

There is NO REASON TO PAY THESE PEOPLE ANYTHING when they ask for it.

What you should do is send them a letter saying that there are documented cases where their evidence has been wrong, and that in your opinion in this case their evidence is also wrong. Say that this is your first and your last letter and you will not be making any payment, and that any further correspondence from them will be ignored. Then wait for the statement of claim that will probably never come.

If you want to settle later, you can simply do that once they have filed and when you receive the statement of claim from the court, if you so wish.

Alternatively, the next step in my understanding, is to request disclosure of their evidence, which you can then evaluate and then file a statement of defence. What is in the letter is not evidence of anything, as various people have said in this thread.

Again, DO NOT PAY these people ANY MONEY when you get a letter. Fight back, Davenport Lyons have never won a case on ANY OF THEIR EVIDENCE. All judgements in their favour have been default judgements where the defendent did not show up to represent themselves in court.

OTHER ACTIONS YOU CAN TAKE: http://torrentfreak.com/accused-of-i...rnment-081205/

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

shame they never sent me one

I wanted to post it back without a stamp after wrapping it around a dog turd.
any one got there number ill ring em up and ask if they will send me some as it cheaper than bog paper

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Hello All,

After noticing this forum and thread by the off chance after a Google search, it seems a law firm called ACS Law has sent letters to people regarding a game called Two Worlds and requesting a settlement of 665 pounds to avoid court action.

These new batch of letters was received by people at the end of last week and was sent in second class.
They give the person 21 days to reply by admitting to it or deny it.
If admitting to it then they will have to sign a underclass document that states that all the Two Worlds work is deleted from their hard drive or media.

These letters that ACS has sent do sound similar to these Davenport Lyons letters that is mentioned on previous posts here.

There is discussions on 2 or 3 forums on the net about these letters from ACS Law, I am not sure if I can post links here so try a search on Google with ACS Law Two Worlds letters.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

If there are relevant discussions going on on other forums that you have come across, by all means post links.

By my understanding, the general advice in this thread (reply and deny) would apply to ACS as well.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Thanks for replying :).

Has requested the links that these ACS Law letters are being discussed on.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...2-acs-law.html

http://www.p2pfreak.com/forum/torren...wo-worlds.html

Happy reading.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Very interesting.

Another link, from the p2pfreak thread:

http://www.lawdit.co.uk/reading_room...2P-ACS-Law.htm

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

That link is priceless if you have had a letter, there seems to be a way out of this very cheaply if you don't have the stomach for a head to head encounter with DL/ACS.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

If your referring to has agreeing to this settlement what they are asking for on the form, then maybe yes it might be cheaply but is the easy way allways the right way in the long run.

The undertakings form asking the person who is named on the letter to sign the form, if a situation pops up again and these ACS target the innocent again with another so called title could they not use this undertakings has ammo on a type of admission of guilt for future cases.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Bethere staff say that they would only disclose details to the solicitors involved if they received a signed court order issued by a UK court instructing them to do so.
Otherwise they will be politely told to go away.

Are they giving VM court orders, or are VM giving them the info just from being asked for it?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Yes, they are doing this because they get court orders to do so. Unfortunateley the way UK law is worded at the moment, there is nothing wrong with this.

It may well be against EU law, however.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Just spotted this, They've backed off.

However another firm is taking up the gauntlet.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

Not completely relevant, but interesting non the less....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8046028.stm

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

Another interesting article....

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05...lyons_acs_law/

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

This was posted on another forum not so long ago, credit goes to the poster Delta from P2Pfreak.

http://www.hartlepoolmail.co.uk/news...aim.5258581.jp

Also YOUTUBED !

YouTube - ACS:LAW: Solicitors Filesharing Blackmail scam

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

this link might work :)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

Is it ACS, the Journo or both that haven't got a clue wtf they are talking about?

Statements like that do wonders to enhance the cred of their "forensic computer analysis" . :D

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

Hello all. Posting today to let you all know that you are not alone, stand strong.
I too have received a letter from ACS, and am hoping that they'll take me to court so that I can successfully defend my case and put an end to all this nonsense!
I am also active on P2PFreak forum and Slyck where you may also find people who are discussing this. IMHO the more people who know what's going on the better.
Keep digging, as our case gets stronger everyday!

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

if they have the same info as Davenport lyons then they wont as they havnt got any evidence. more hassle. id imagine a few niave individuals will pay though. keep us up to date.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

Good morning all. If you've got time to read this, your day might be a little brighter. A slamming for the "we've got your IP, that's evidence" argument.
http://beckermanlegal.com/Lawyer_Cop...nessReport.pdf

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

This is still rumbling on and on....

lots of letters due to go out.

This thread has been quiet for a couple of weeks. If you need up to date info try:

Chatroom - http://beingthreatened.yolasite.com/chatroom.php

Website - http://beingthreatened.yolasite.com/

edited due to being crap at posting links (oh the shame)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

Have rec recently spoken to davenport and asked why i hadnt recieved the court papers. The told me ACS were delaing with the case now, phoned them and they said they would phone mw back, that was three days ago. waste off space!

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

And now ACS are alleging copyright infringement of porn titles. The saga continues.
http://beingthreatened.yolasite.com/

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

they seem to want to persue this more than Davenport Lyons. I spoke to them yesterday and they said they had posted several lots of court papers out, i tried to explain that they couldnt possibly go to coourt on the evidence they have, as usuall they danced arround the issue. I think its a disgrace what they are doing! watch this space. Im hoping they send me the papers so i can go do court, but realisticly know that it willc never happen!

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

ljc, I would worry more if Davenport Lyons hadn't said something very similar two years ago. We all saw what happened then... Nothing.

So, I am here tryng to get the word out about a project of mine. I have decided it's time we got some information on these guy's monitoring methods and exactly how long it's taking for them to get the court orders & write to you. To this end, I am asking people to send me data about their infringement.

There is now a natty web form for this purpose which provides 100% anonimity. I will only be able to see the data and not who submitted it. Fill it in here.


If you don't want to use the form for some reason, then This is the info you need to send me:

• The work you have been accused of sharing (just "porn" will do if you like)
• What potocol
• The date you were allegedly sharing
• The time you were allegedly sharing
• Who is accusing you
• When you got the letter
• The date of the Court order that revealed your address

Thanks. Please be as precise as you can with the timing in particular.

Send the info to me either by PM here, or via email to penumbra at beingthreatened.com. Of course, using the web form will make it much easier.

Cheers all.


Please note, although I am not registered with the ICO, any information you send me will be in the strictest confidence. The only way it will be in the public domain will be as a graph. If tables are published for any reason (they probably won't be) they will be randomised according to well established protocols and it will be utterly unlinkable to you in any way.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

People are going on about wanting to get DL or ACS into court, where as if you even remotely deny the circumstances we all know that they just won't bite..

Personally if I got the papers I would do sod all (apart from talk to a solicitor so he could be prepared) and then wait for the court papers (I presume they'd expect a no show ;))

But that's just me...

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

I suppose the point is...

...their is now organised support and advice for people getting these letters

...or should I say "speculative invoices"

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

i have passed my papers onto a friend to look at, when i get them back next week i will post the information. All quite again at the moment!

Any more threatening letters from dodgy legal firms?
 

Has anyone been getting any letters from legal firms demanding money for alleged copyright infringement lately?

They were supposed to have been doing some more recently. I'd love to know what files they claim were being shared.

Re: Any more threatening letters from dodgy legal firms?
 

Apparently, they're "in the post".

ACS Law: "“The first batch [of] claims have been prepared and were filed at court on Friday, 4 September 2009. Service of the proceedings will be made by first class post and will be with defendants by Tuesday, 8 September 2009 at the very latest,” the company said in a statement, adding, “The second batch of defendants will be selected on Monday, 14 September 2009.”"
source: http://torrentfreak.com/uk-lawyers-p...harers-090907/

Re: Any more threatening letters from dodgy legal firms?
 

I want to know what files are involved. I have been collecting my own data on ACS.

Re: Any more threatening letters from dodgy legal firms?
 

This seems to list what they are currently doing

http://www.acs-law.org.uk/index.php?...=article&id=51

Reality Pump - Two Worlds

Techland - Call of Juarez

Topware - Dream Pinball

Digiprotect - Various

Re: Any more threatening letters from dodgy legal firms?
 

Thanks, much appreciated. Interesting that they are still doing Dream Pinball, especially since there has been a sustained campaign by pro-P2P groups to seed trackers with fake IP addresses and deliberately share it on any open wifi connection.

It appears ACS have taken the bait. With luck this will reach court in the next year or two (UK "justice" is pretty slow).

Re: Any more threatening letters from dodgy legal firms?
 

I think the list that Ben Mcr posted is outdated (the dates on the court papers are 2008), they were the first batch that ACS tried to sue for (and failed epicly iirc) :D

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

lawdit article on the latest: http://www.lawdit.co.uk/reading_room...sue-claims.htm

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

They do appear to be going after people for some of the things on the list. It's surprising since the alleged infringement happened last year, and most like any evidence they could have drawn upon has now been destroyed.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

Doubtless hoping for out-of-court settlements or no-shows. They can't possibly win if it actually gets in front of the beak, can they?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

Since receiving the first one a few years back I have been trying to get them to go as far as court, but they always bottle out. In the end I claimed over £300 from them to cover my costs too.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

How did that end up? your last post was a while back saying the court date was in June, did it happen and did you win?

Could I also point you in the direction of "http://beingthreatened.yolasite.com/" you may find it interesting!!!

edit due to spelling

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

Yeah, they didn't show up, just submitted a written argument. Not only did I win, I got another £38 in costs for attending that hearing.

Unfortunately they are still well up on their money making scam. 50p for a letter and a stamp nets you £600+, so I imagine it was the publicity that stopped them rather than the losses.

ACS I have not dealt with directly before. I'm hoping I get something from them though, as they will then either have to face a humiliating climb down or will end up in court.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

well done mate;)

........hope to see you in "beingthreatened chatroom"

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

Which court is that win by default recorded at?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

I'd like to see that too.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

As you can change your IP by changing the MAC address and powering off your modem, surely this means you *could* inherit an IP of a heavy downloader and subsequently end up with a court summons even IF it's nothing to do with you.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

But surely when ACS apply for a court order they have to prove date/time for when the downloads took place, not just the IP address itself?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

Surely then VM would have to keep a permanent record of each IP a users had and at what time period.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

Reedy,

There is a thing called "the date" - which relates to any given day of the year in any twelve month calendar cycle and indeed any subsequent calendar cycle.

By a "cunning" use of the date and things called your "memory" and "logs" one can, generally, prove / disprove things such as when one may have changed ones IP address and whether or not one was responsible for certain activities associated with any particular IP address.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

Which all ISPs do anyway

Same as this forum can record which users logged in, at what time and from which IP address

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

I doubt its permanent, probably limited to a couple of years.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

According to this they legally have to keep it for 1 year http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05...ion_directive/

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

Small Claims Court.

That happens all the time.

The problem is that BitTorrent trackers and eDonkey/eMule servers only get updates very infrequently from clients. For BT this can be as little as once every 24 hours. As such, any information, such as lists of client IP addresses, contain information which may be up to 24 hours out of date.

Also, the trackers/servers do not bother to verify IP addresses at all. There are publicised campaigns of seeding them with random IP addresses assigned to major ISPs, in order to make legal action very difficult and thwart attempts to gather information.

Even if they download data from an IP address, they still can't prove much. An IP address does not identify an individual or a computer. Also, it does not rule out hacking, such as a trojan inside the users network or unauthorised use of wifi. This latter point is a major problem, especially as last week a practical attack against WPA with TKIP was made public and many ISPs have supplied thousands of routers pre-configured with that system. Within range of my house there are six networks which are either unencrypted (2) or using WEP/WPA-TKIP (4) which I could gain access to in minutes if I wanted to.

That is also quite a good defence. If I were accused of sharing a copyrighted file, I would point out the number of vulnerable wifi networks within range of my house and how effortlessly I could access them, and then ask the accuser why I would risk using my own connection when I could just as easily use someone else's.

Even if they could somehow rule all that out, downloading a chunk of a file does not prove much either. Unless they have the whole file, downloaded entirely from one IP address (virtually impossible if your client software only seeds to a 1:1 ratio) it is very difficult to prove that it is indeed the file they think it is.

We have also seen the "leecher mod" defence used recently, where the accused showed that she was using a modified client which does not upload any data to other clients; it only downloads. Since only uploading is enough for them to win in court (downloading for personal use would generally not be enough to claim damages).

What we need is a court case where these arguments are made. That would make all of their "evidence" worthless and hopefully put a stop to this scam.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

Yes, obviously - but which one and under what reference?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

Portsmouth. I don't think the records are public (probably, but google didn't turn them up), and I'm not sure where I stand sharing that information.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

Why should you or others need Google? You've your own N1 & reference number. The judgement as advised to you is a matter of public record whether available on Google or not and the details will be available from the court by request.

As to where you stand - it's your case, you won by default as the defendants elected to take no action.

Therefore, if you post your case reference and date you'd be going some very considerable way to helping others who have received letters by presenting them with a proof positive precedent that these claims are both vexatious and without merit.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

Come on cook1984, you're all about getting this in the public domain otherwise you wouldn't be writing about it here, you may well have the key to help a lot of people, or is there something more to this, as I suspect?

Prove my suspicions wrong sir.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

The only problem is that if I post my case reference, it exposes my personal data (name, address, alleged IP address, evidence I submitted including details of my home and business networks, what UBR I'm on etc).

Also, DL are not the first people I have taken to Small Claims Court. If I give out my name or case reference number it would be possible for anyone to find all cases related to me. I also don't want ACS to know my identity, as I am hoping to get a letter from them and try to force the issue to go to court. If they know who I am, they won't send me one.

Anyway, this method is not a solution for most people. I was only able to claim monetary loss because it affected my work and I was able to demonstrate that. I wasted time I could have spent making money on checking my network and amassing evidence to defend against a frivolous accusation that was dropped before ever reaching court. If you threaten someone with legal action and cause them to loose money preparing a defence and communicating with you, only to drop the case the moment you realise they are not simply going to pay your "fine" then you can expect to reimburse them.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

Cookie,

Are you sure you haven't banged your head?

I have recently been in contact with Mr G******** at Portsmouth court hearings@portsmouth.countycourt.gsi.gov.uk
and he advises that there are no, nor have there ever been, claims registered against Davenport Lyons in their jurisdiction.

If you'd like to drop me a line (pm) with your court reference I'd be only too happy to put him right.

Regards

Mr A

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

I do not think your avatar has ever been more apt lol lol

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

Says it all doesn't it?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

Here we go again :(

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8381097.stm

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

IP addresses can't be admissible in a court of law because they can be spoofed. So why the hell do they think they can get away with it?!

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

Because a lot of people don't know that, and panic at the first mention of the word 'court'.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

And if you read the article thier "experts" say that you can't spoof IP's on P2P ... :rolleyes:

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

Spoofing IPs on P2P is the way piraters get their goods in the first bloody place.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

Perhaps you could explain that?

---------- Post added at 22:58 ---------- Previous post was at 22:57 ----------

LOL, you practice law do you?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

No, but a friend who does has said that it wouldn't stand up in a court of law.

Clever people who use P2P change their IP on a very frequent basis whenever they connect to a swarm or a tracker, so that they don't use the same address twice to avoid being tracked. It could be related to the overboard encryption they use, which might rehash the IP address you broadcast. If you happen to use any of those IPs and Davenport Lyons finds it in a list they've bribed the ISPs for, you get the "pay us or go to court" notice. If I ever received one of those lists, I'd take it to court no matter what the outcome was, because they need to know that what they do is just plain wrong and can't be held up and they should be held accountable for it.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

I was almost going to take your comments on board and provide an answer to your statement, then you used the term "bribed ISPs for".

You obviously do not understand the process that DL or ACS have to go through in order to get that data, it certainly isn't bribery.

It amazes me how much "spoofing" goes on in p2p traffic according to those who regularly use that term, its amazing that any files actually reach their destination IP addresses with all that going on. :erm:

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

I think the point being made is, not how much spoofing actually goes on, but the fact that it can be done is one of the reasons why it would be very difficult to prove beyond doubt in court that someone was actually file-sharing.

Another reason would be the fact that just because someone's PC broadcasts to a torrent swarm that it has a file called 'Star Wars', does not prove that there is actually a copy of Star Wars on that PC, nor that it has been shared. The only way to prove that the file is there, that it contains copyright material and that material has been shared without permission, is for the lawyers to get a complete, working copy of it from the defendant's PC. That is as good as impossible to achieve.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

Hence why it's no longer a prerequisite.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

Personally I think the underlying point here made with the spoofing comments and also previous comments is that ACS and thier clients are not looking at copyright protection, but instead at another revenue stream for thier products/services. Why else do they baulk at taking further action against anyone who denies the act and only seem to take monies from those who admit liability or further action against those who seem ignorant of the circumstances :(

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

Please expand ... ?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

I don't wish to second guess Mr Angry, but he may be eluding to the fact that you don't need to offer the whole part of the work to have breached copyright law, only a reasonable part of it.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

A good point, but if ACS are relying on the filename being offered, have they even proof of a reasonable part? I could create a torrent file right now, I could call it 'Star Wars' and upload it. But I don't have a copy of Star Wars on my computer, or anywhere else in the house for that matter.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons or ACS?
 

But none of your torrent mislabled star wars would match any part of the original, I believe that they do at least confirm that the part they download does at least match the hash of a pirated copy