Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I don't think it's paranoia. There's white space all over the place; blank expressions from all Government sources and increasing irritation in those who know we know :D.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Flamin' heck, a few days planting and a PC rebuild, and I come back to war and peace.....:shocked:

"I got an email this evening. Emma is "disappointed" that I have declined to remove the comments about them misleading ICO and has stated they will continue to monitor the situation. No more talk of legal action."

Can I just say HA-HA! BOTTLED!:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Regarding Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer and her comments on Phorm.

James Firth on the ukcrypto mailing list suggests that she tries telling this to user 3D7746485 using 121Media's technology back in 2006.

http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/pi...ne/084881.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I do have another suggestion, but I always try to avoid giving others more work if I'm unable to do it myself.

How about distributing 50 to 100 leaflets particularly around Supermarkets etc.

More Important to do this around London so that the Locals know more about the Approaching Demo.

Simply Headlined " Webwise what is it?", & underneath say Google these links when you have time & find out.

Putting a list of useful Search keywords below this.

It's always better if people find out for themselves at their own pace.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You made a comment in response to mine on your blog saying you are not a lawyer and don't understand the law. So I will help you, read my dissertation on ILLEGAL covert trials by BT in 2006/2007, you can find it here:

http://www.paladine.org.uk/phorm_paper.pdf

Maybe then you will understand the issue a little more clearly.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Agreed. Broadening awareness is crucial imo. Whilst the informed resistance to Phorm has been effective, the arguments have become complex and technical and this will marginalise the campaign if we're not careful. The wider audience is not unsophisticated but the majority seeking to find out what it's really all about could be met with a barrage of technical jargon they don't have the time to get to understand.

Point scoring against BT, cosy chats with 80/20, watching share prices and entering debate with random bloggers is not the best strategy. The monthly subscription from someone who knows nothing about Phorm is worth the same as that of someone who is seething about it.

We need to look beyond this forum and beyond the demo with a message that is as clear to the blue rinse brigade as it is to IT pros ie you will be pimped unless you say no.

When Government Ministers start hearing about the erosion of privacy during their time on the golf course or when taking tiffin with Mr & Mrs Jolly Hockey-Sticks, then they'll start taking notice :D .

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Images of quotes from the most notable voices connected to, or commenting on, the Phorm issue are available at the link below:

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...e&id=574761987

More images will be added soon...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Your gut feeling is wrong.

Full disclaimer:

I have no association with Phorm, BT or any interest in getting work in this manner. I know people in BT working in web analytics and data mining, I don't know anyone at Phorm. I am interested in data mining and am part of a number of different organisations, online groups and am regarded by many as an expert in web analytics, marketing and data analysis.

I work for a company called Trainers' House Satama as a consultant and I am based in Helsinki Finland.

I don't need to tout for work because the demand for my skills is very high due to the lack of people in my line of work.

I didn't intend to attract a whole new set of visitors to my site by writing my post, it was simply picked up by someone, posted here and then I got a whole lot of comments on my site. I intended to open a debate with my peers and regular Blackbeak readers whom have so far not commented though it is a weekend and probably most of them have better things to do than read my blog.

I know what can and can't be extracted from a lot of different web analytics tools. I am writing this looking at a browser tool (the Google Toolbar) that allows Google to see every website I visit. They know everything about my web browsing habits. And I don't care. Because i know how difficult it would be to pinpoint me as an individual and figure out who I am. I also know that it would be a complete WASTE OF THEIR TIME to do so. What's the point of knowing one persons behavior?

So to continue this debate here, please tell me the value of Phorm or BT to know the browsing habits of individuals? What business reason would they have for that? Think about it. The value comes from the aggregation of the data not from being to tell what you or I are doing individually.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well first they link your ip to this fabled random number then they invade your PRIVACY by storing your information this can then be linked to you by the isp might not be with phorm but as phorm are in partnership with your isp they also have access to your details and or account number address e.t.c which will in the end (it might not be on launch) be circumnavigated by creep in software updates to sell YOUR personal browsing history to whoever wants to buy it as it is YOU they are selling not the clicks.

People know google collect clicks with toolbar any sort of toolbar actually which is why its your CHOICE if you give it or not, even though you dont opt into phorm your information will STILL be proflied before it gets to the net and can easilly be masked as needed usage or whatever bull crap term the isp want to market it as.

For someone with such a high knowledge of extracting info i guess you dont put much regard for yourself or your familys privacy ahh wait you dont live in this country so its not affecting you and would like to buy phorms data on people pehaps? :P

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You and I are talking about different things. The closest they (that is Phorm and BT) get to personal information is a UID cookie assigned to an IP address according to what I've read. It's not your personal information according to Dr Claytons document on the subject.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You missed the point, again. You're looking at the issue from the point of view of data analysis and it's worth -- you're not looking at how the data is acquired to begin with.

Whether the data of an individual's browsing behaviour is worth something to the companies involved is beside the point -- the point is that the data capture is done without the consent of all parties involved in the communication.

And, even your point about data aggregation is incorrect -- the whole point of Phorm is too look at what individuals are doing in order to serve targeted ads to the individual. That's not aggregation of the data as a whole -- that's targeting individuals based upon the individual's browsing behaviour. Why would they need an unique identifier if it wasn't to profile/target an individual?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

ok lets look at the bigger picture, and then I will give you my view, which will shock some people, and will tout contraversy.

Main points to consider:

- BT have all the PII for each individual user on their systems.
- Phorm will create a profile of each user's browing habits
- This will take place at BT Exchange 21CN
- BT intend to offer a DPI Product to LLU and non LLU ADSL Providers at their exchange 21CN
- The UK Government are creating the new Communications Act to ensure that the UK complies with European Directive 2006/24/EC
- The UK Government (HO) appear to have maybe backed the Phorm System
- The UK Governmental Departments are passing the buck from one to another

Now my view:

The Phorm System will be implemented at the 21CN Complex, and offered to other Providers, to Channel the Data from their End Users at a small cost. Subsequently giving BT the lead, in the UK and possibly Europe, as they will have the Technology* in place to 'Channel' various aspects of the Internet, thus placing the whole question of Net Neutrality stongly in doubt. (*The Technology required is the same as what has been stated that Phorm require for their operations)

Additionally, the UK Government will have a 'One Stop' Destination to compile the Data that is required for them to comply with European Directive 2006/24/EC; and it would not be difficult for the UK Government to indicate that Phorm should either record this Data on their behalf, or channel Data to Servers Specifically for the collection of the Data, which would be monitored and collected by a Government body. (Which in my view is why there is little friction from the Goverment as they would have a platform in place to utilise)

The papers produced after the 2006 Trials strongly indicate that there was an emphasis to hide the system from the End User and Web Masters, rendering the System completely Transparent. Additionally, the same papers indicate that the IP Addresses for the Trialists were made available to Phorm, so that Phorm could direct the correct webpage to the correct Browser. Strongly indictating that the public should not be aware of the system.

This has blown the claim by Phorm out of the water that they do not use PII**, and has created further doubt to whether the updated version of the System will also use PII, this will now need clear verification to either prove or disprove. (**The European Data Commission had indicated that the IP Address for any Internet User IS PII)

In my view, the entire Phorm Saga is a small part of a bigger puzzle, and this is a brief summary.

@ BT, Phorm, and UK Government: The statement above is NOT a statement of fact, however is a personal Interpretation of the facts presented in the past few months. This statement is CLEARLY NOT making any allegations, defamatory comments, Slanderous remarks - it is the view of one individual speaking to others, as he would in regards of such a debate in his Front Room with his friends and family. The 'Bulleted' Facts are 100% correct, as you cannot deny, the rest is all hypothetical in nature. Cmon sue me...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

New Flyer - simpler, only one page, higher impact. Comments anyone?

http://www.inphormationdesk.org/Phorm_Flyer_V0.pdf

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Nice work

Can I make a suggestion though? Maybe an area to provide links to:

badphorm
petition
nodpi

Again to make the campaign more cohesive. Only a suggestion :angel:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ok, one thing I would like to add. IP address is NOT PII in any legal act. It may one day become PII but it is not classed as such yet.

I have changed my position based on legal papers presented to me by Dr Clayton. My last comment on the subject was:

I defer to the legal analysis of Nicholas Bohm and retract (though I’ll leave the full original post here for the record) my previous comments. I now agree that a full investigation should be carried out.

If laws have been broken then I agree with you that BT should be prosecuted on your second point for all the reasons you mentioned.

My understanding without any evidence to the contrary (indeed the Home Office/ICO seemed satisfied) was that section 18 of Nicholas Bohms’ document was satisfied. I refer to this section:

“RIPA s3 is relevant to whether that interception can be lawful. RIPA s3(1) makes it lawful if the interception has the consent of both sender and recipient (or if the interceptor has reasonable grounds for believing
that it does).�

My understanding based on your document was that this was satisfied by getting consent from both the consumer and the advertising network.



I don't think anyone in my industry agrees with deception and therefore I will write another post to re-iterate my position.