Cable Forum
Page 59 of 63 « First 94955565758 59 60616263
Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page

Cable Forum (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/index.php)
-   Current Affairs (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/forumdisplay.php?f=20)
-   -   Britain outside the EU (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33709659)

Paul 30-12-2023 20:02
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Civil Servants themselves are not going to be "neutral", they will have personal views, just like everyone else.
What they should be doing is performing their duties in a 'neutral' manner, regardless of who is giving the instructions (i.e. in power).

jfman 30-12-2023 21:53
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36167498)
Steve Hilton that worked for David Cameron, say otherwise.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/24Yhbe4gzaApXFXQYcyXVW

Prove he’s wrong.
I just wasted an hour of my life for him to say - somewhere around 10 mins from the end - he found his encounters with the civil service to be professional and he didn't think they were on a crusade to subvert the Government.

He invokes Blair a number of times as some kind of shield for his own views for smaller Government/less civil servants. What struck me throughout is that seemingly neither he, nor politicians, had realistic expectations of how Government actually works.

He gives an example at the start where they looked at Government announcements over a week - 30% in the coalition agreement, and the other 70% in a 40/30 split between EU directives and things outside the coalition agreement. The EU directives, rightly or wrongly, were the constitutional arrangement at the time. The rest will be legislation or programmes that existed before that Government came to power.

The whole point of a Civil Service is to manage the transition. Governments don't come to power on day 1 with a clean slate - there will be baked in commitments and funding for programmes or projects that will date from before (and in some cases, go on after) Governments come and go. Ministers have to decide whether to stop those - civil servants can't just abandon them of their own accord.

The segment on immigration was quite funny, it seamlessly transitioned from illegal immigration to immigration and ignored that the vast majority of immigration (and thus, Conservative governments failure to control net migration) is legal migration. He almost gets to the point that politicians shouldn't lie to the electorate on the campaign, but never quite says it.

OLD BOY 31-12-2023 00:20
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36167499)
Civil Servants themselves are not going to be "neutral", they will have personal views, just like everyone else.
What they should be doing is performing their duties in a 'neutral' manner, regardless of who is giving the instructions (i.e. in power).
Yes. I don't disagree.

Hugh 31-12-2023 20:44
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
1 Attachment(s)
https://x.com/kemibadenoch/status/17...Fx9lsEXWlOa1jg

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...7&d=1704051550

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...united-kingdom

Quote:
the Participants, in the spirit of promoting closer relationships, intend to further support and work co-operatively within the boundaries of existing laws and treaties in their respective jurisdictions on goals and issues as set forth below.
Quote:
This MOU is not legally binding under state, national, or international law and does not create any legal obligation to carry out or to financially support any activity.
The U.S. Constitution, through the Commerce Clause, gives Congress exclusive power over trade activities between the states and with foreign countries…

Ms NTL 31-12-2023 20:52
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
I was complaining in a private forum about Jersey banks for leaks to EU/USA and then, I got this from a wealth advisor

You can employ "funnelling" involving bearer bonds purchased through offshore nominees, placed in a tax haven, and redeemed upon the submission of "invoices" from a shell company. Subsequently, these funds are channeled into the "UK," through Channel Islands or Isle of Man deposit accounts, without being registered in the name of the ultimate recipient until they are collected by designated representatives. Cost 2%-5%

Unbelievable. You learn something new every day!

1andrew1 18-01-2024 19:12
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
It would be great if the next government could improve on things like this.

Quote:
...since Brexit there has been almost zero investment in the UK generics industry compared with £4bn in Europe, with manufacturing output down by one-third in the decade to 2021.

All these things have complex causes, but Samuels [boss of the British Generic Manufacturers Association who supply 4/5 of NHS drugs] points to two major Brexit factors.

First, he says budget cuts and restructuring at the UK regulator, the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA), have led to a doubling of wait times to get generic medicines approved.

So in 2019 it took 12 to 15 months for the agency to license generic medicines. But as a result of Brexit the MHRA lost the EU regulatory approvals work that provided 20 per cent of its budget. Now (December 2023) it takes 24 to 30 months to get a generic drug licensed.

“The MHRA currently has a backlog of approximately 500 generic medicines to license. The agency licenses 35 to 50 generics per month as its maximum capacity, so a 500-medicine backlog is over a year’s logjam,” Samuels says.

This can be fixed with more money. The resourcing of the UK’s post-Brexit regulators is out-of-whack with the country’s ambitions to be a “science superpower”. A Labour government could start to address that.

Second, under the terms of the UK-EU trade deal, the European Medicines Agency (EMA) does not recognise “batch-testing” (checking medicines conform to standards) that is done in the UK. This has to be done in Europe — so, just as Michel Barnier warned, the UK would not be allowed to become a “certification hub” off the coast of Europe.

...But Samuels argues for a bigger-picture view. In a world of pandemics, narrowing global trade blocs and the US no longer guaranteeing European security, a UK that was deeply committed to the European neighbourhood ought, he says, to be able to reframe narrow issues, such as medicines and cars, more broadly.

“If you were to think of medicines as a regional security issue, you’d want the whole of Europe, including the UK, to be resilient. The world has changed. We have two wars now in Ukraine and the Middle East and colleagues minded to take a regional perspective ought to be open to the issue of batch-testing.”

There are a series of big leaps there, but given the state of the world at the moment, it is worth both sides lifting their gaze to the horizon.
Source: Britain after Brexit newsletter. FT.com

Paul 18-01-2024 20:47
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
So basically, that list boils down to "This can be fixed with more money."

Where do they think that money going to come from ? and how is it related to Brexit ?

mrmistoffelees 26-01-2024 08:26
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Oh dear….

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-68098177

1andrew1 26-01-2024 10:26
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36168517)
So basically, that list boils down to "This can be fixed with more money."

Where do they think that money going to come from ? and how is it related to Brexit ?
If you've got money for tax cuts, you've got money to restore the power of the regulator to pre-Brexit strength. Per the article, the regulator was cut as it lost its income stream for EU approvals. In 2019 it took 12 to 15 months for the agency to license generic medicines. In December 2023 it takes 24 to 30 months to get a generic drug licensed.

That's why generic drug manufacturers are not expanding in the UK. They're important as generic drugs account for 80% of drugs used by the NHS.

---------- Post added at 09:26 ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36168946)
Quote:
It will also mean the UK's trading terms with Canada will now be worse than when it was part of the EU's deal with the country.

British car companies now face the prospect of higher tariffs - import charges - to sell into the Canadian market from the start of April.

Higher Canadian tariffs on British cheese had already kicked in earlier this month, after the previous terms expired at the end of 2023.
Let's hope this can be sorted, especially for our car industry which is our biggest export to Canada.

Sephiroth 26-01-2024 10:40
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
About the hormone treated Canadian beef: do you want that or not?

Damien 26-01-2024 11:16
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36168954)
About the hormone treated Canadian beef: do you want that or not?
I don't for sure, nor do I what what Americans do to their chicken.

But I think it highlights the problem with all these trades we were meant to sign after Brexit.

Sephiroth 26-01-2024 11:23
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36168957)
I don't for sure, nor do I what what Americans do to their chicken.

But I think it highlights the problem with all these trades we were meant to sign after Brexit.
It certainly highlights a problem with specific countries after Brexit. But surely not "all".

The trade-off for Brexit is sovereignty vs the EU umbrella. As we chose sovereignty, all we need is a competent government.

1andrew1 26-01-2024 11:42
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36168954)
About the hormone treated Canadian beef: do you want that or not?
Badenoch has ruled it out. It can't get into the UK food supply chain as it would be problematical for Northern Ireland's borders with GB and IE.

---------- Post added at 10:42 ---------- Previous post was at 10:29 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36168958)
It certainly highlights a problem with specific countries after Brexit. But surely not "all".

The trade-off for Brexit is sovereignty vs the EU umbrella. As we chose sovereignty, all we need is a competent government.
I think a key issue is that the trade deals are not rolled over indefinitely. As we're a smaller player than the EU, we stand a chance of getting a poorer deal or no deal at all (hopefully less common) when they're up for renegotiation. In terms of what we can offer in trade deals to other countries, our hands are tied due to the need to have no border between Northern Ireland and GB and Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. The sovereignty box may be ticked but the reality on the ground is somewhat different.

Sephiroth 26-01-2024 12:52
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36168959)
Badenoch has ruled it out. It can't get into the UK food supply chain as it would be problematical for Northern Ireland's borders with GB and IE.

---------- Post added at 10:42 ---------- Previous post was at 10:29 ----------


I think a key issue is that the trade deals are not rolled over indefinitely. As we're a smaller player than the EU, we stand a chance of getting a poorer deal or no deal at all (hopefully less common) when they're up for renegotiation. In terms of what we can offer in trade deals to other countries, our hands are tied due to the need to have no border between Northern Ireland and GB and Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. The sovereignty box may be ticked but the reality on the ground is somewhat different.

The "sovereignty box" stands on its own and is not linked to other consequences.

All this boils down to the Remainers wishing to have preserved the then status quo (disregarding the 'ever closer union' stuff) versus the Leavers wishing to have UK sovereignty and expecting a competent government to facilitate growth of the economy.

1andrew1 26-01-2024 14:06
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Rees-Mogg throwing his toys out of the pram again! Reality seems to be that devolved government in Northern Ireland requires closer alignment with the EU for all of the UK.

Quote:
Rishi Sunak has offered to sacrifice some of Britain’s Brexit freedoms in a bid to appease the DUP and re-establish devolved government in Northern Ireland.

The Daily Telegraph reported the Prime Minister had pledged to introduce a requirement that would see all new laws screened in a bid to ensure they will not create extra trade barriers in the Irish Sea.

Downing Street hopes it will persuade the DUP to end its two-year boycott of Stormont.

The offer has, however, angered Tory MPs after some warned introducing such a policy would make it almost impossible for Great Britain to diverge from EU rules and moves to take advantage of Brexit freedoms risk being blocked by officials in Whitehall.

All legislation would have to be accompanied by a ministerial statement confirming it did not have a “significant adverse effect” on internal UK trade.

The new system would mirror the one being used to screen new bills for their compatibility with the European Convention on Human Rights.

The DUP left Stormont in February 2022 in protest at the Irish Sea Border and has refused to return until the checks on goods agreed with the EU in the Windsor Framework are scrapped.

The Windsor Framework was a renegotiation of the original Brexit deal and reduced red tape, but has been pushed by unionists to go further.

Mr Sunak's latest offer would give the DUP an effective guarantee that the UK would not pass laws in the future that would create more trade barriers between Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg, the former business secretary, said: “This means we will not diverge at all, and we will have ended up with Theresa May’s Chequers deal in all but name.

“I voted against the Windsor Framework because it subordinates part of the UK to the EU. This mechanism would restore part of the EU hegemony over us.”
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...799742753.html

---------- Post added at 12:25 ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36168958)
As we chose sovereignty, all we need is a competent government.
But you're not prepared to put your money where your mouth is and vote for one! You have advised that you will re-elect the existing government. :confused:

---------- Post added at 13:06 ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 ----------

How it started in 2021:

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36064472)
Happy Independence Day...Which new markets should we be exploiting after the US?
How it's going three years later:
Quote:
It will also mean the UK's trading terms with Canada will now be worse than when it was part of the EU's deal with the country.

British car companies now face the prospect of higher tariffs - import charges - to sell into the Canadian market from the start of April.

Sephiroth 26-01-2024 14:53
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36168967)
<SNIP>
But you're not prepared to put your money where your mouth is and vote for one! You have advised that you will re-elect the existing government. :confused:<SNIP>

No - not quite. I said that as a Conservative party member, I couldn't vote against them. You can read between the lines that I would vote for my friend John Redwood. That's not voting to re-elect the existing government.

But I won't dodge the real point you are making which is that the Tories need throwing out (as punishment for their incompetence/shitshow and other sins). But the front-runner alternative will be worse in just about every direction.

The politicians are the bad eggs here - their breed now works against us, by and large.

1andrew1 27-01-2024 16:53
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Last chance to stock upon on your fresh EU treats before the Brexit price hikes.
Quote:
New regulations intended to protect biosecurity by imposing controls on plant and animal products mean the UK is "going back in time," according to British importers and European suppliers.

The government's modelling says the new controls will cost industry £330m, while the grocery industry has warned that £200m could be added to fresh fruit and vegetable prices should checks be introduced in the future.

There is also the prospect of delays caused by inspections of faulty paperwork, which could derail supply chains that rely entirely on fast turnaround of goods.

British importers have told Sky News that the new rules, which have already been delayed five times in three years, will add up to 17% to shipping costs, leading to higher prices for consumers.

European companies and industry groups say the controls are unnecessary as they replicate checks already made in the EU, and that Brexit is adding bureaucracy and cost to dealing with the UK.

The new import controls are a consequence of Britain having left both the single market and the customs union when the trade and co-operation deal with the EU came into force in January 2021.

While UK exporters to Europe were immediately subject to customs rules, the British government waived import controls to avoid damaging the economy and food supply.

On five occasions since 2021 ministers planned and then cancelled their introduction, in part because of fears that interrupting food supplies from the EU would exacerbate the cost of living crisis.

Almost 80% of UK vegetable imports and 40% of fruit comes from Europe.

Dutch flower wholesaler Heermskerk Managing director Nick van Bommel "We're going back in time. They want to have health inspections that we haven't carried out for more than thirty years, and now from next week on we start again," he said.

"It won't help anybody, but it will make an awful lot of costs and somebody has to pay the bill at the end. I'm 100% sure that the last customer, the British consumer, has to pay for this."

Freddie Heathcote, managing director of Green & Bloom, calculates his shipping costs will rise by up to 17% - and the knock-on to consumers could be increases of 20% to 50% once the physical inspection regime is in place.

"We have been told the charge for consignments crossing at Dover or Folkestone will be £20 to £43 per category item listed on the consignment.

"We imported 28 different consignment lines tonight from one supplier, which would be £560 to £1,204 to clear the border control point on a total invoice of £7,000. That's between 8% and 17% additional cost on an average import for us."
https://news.sky.com/story/why-chees...rules-13057056

ianch99 29-01-2024 13:08
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36169029)
Last chance to stock upon on your fresh EU treats before the Brexit price hikes.

https://news.sky.com/story/why-chees...rules-13057056
Yes, as mentioned above, the Brexit Bad News Bus has been busy recently:

- The UK gave up on negotiations to extend our trade deal with Canada, leaving us worse off than when we were an EU member:

https://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68098177

- New incoming border checks will add £200 million a year to the cost of our food and drink:

https://eastangliabylines.co.uk/brex...d-veg-imports/

- MPs were warned that the EU's upcoming ETIAS/EES border systems may lead to up to 14-hour queues to enter (the rest of) Europe from the autumn:

https://itv.com/news/2024-01-25/traf...urope-mps-told

- There were warnings of possible shortages of flowers for Valentines Day because of the new incoming border checks:

https://news.sky.com/story/roses-are...he-eu-13056060

- A plan to extend visas for British expats in France from 90 to 180 days was blocked by France's Constitutional Council court (a decision which has no right of appeal):

https://lbc.co.uk/news/french-court-...rance-90-days/

- The EU's plans to increase bulk medicine procurement across the bloc risk creating shortages in Britain because they have very significantly greater buying power than the UK does:

https://theguardian.com/science/2024...cord-shortages

Pierre 29-01-2024 13:21
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36169090)
- The UK gave up on negotiations to extend our trade deal with Canada, leaving us worse off than when we were an EU member
I thought you'd be pleased that we decided not to import Hormone filled beef?



Quote:
- New incoming border checks will add £200 million a year to the cost of our food and drink:

https://eastangliabylines.co.uk/brex...d-veg-imports/

- MPs were warned that the EU's upcoming ETIAS/EES border systems may lead to up to 14-hour queues to enter (the rest of) Europe from the autumn:

https://itv.com/news/2024-01-25/traf...urope-mps-told


- There were warnings of possible shortages of flowers for Valentines Day because of the new incoming border checks:

https://news.sky.com/story/roses-are...he-eu-13056060

- A plan to extend visas for British expats in France from 90 to 180 days was blocked by France's Constitutional Council court (a decision which has no right of appeal):

https://lbc.co.uk/news/french-court-...rance-90-days/

- The EU's plans to increase bulk medicine procurement across the bloc risk creating shortages in Britain because they have very significantly greater buying power than the UK does:

https://theguardian.com/science/2024...cord-shortages
Heard it all before, we've had nothing but stories like this for 8+ years. The world didn't end. Very little, if anything, about Brexit has impacted my life, and I doubt any of the above will either.

mrmistoffelees 29-01-2024 13:46
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36169091)
I thought you'd be pleased that we decided not to import Hormone filled beef?





Heard it all before, we've had nothing but stories like this for 8+ years. The world didn't end. Very little, if anything, about Brexit has impacted my life, and I doubt any of the above will either.
1. Without accepting the imports of hormone filled beef we’re unlikely imho to get a decent deal, something which as part of the EU we would have more ‘clout’ albeit we would be not be able to dictate terms (not that we can now) as as we’re a smaller negotiating partner im not sure where we will be able to dictate terms with partners that really count.

2. Agree, not much of an impact to me personally, but the full impact isn’t being felt yet ?

---------- Post added at 12:46 ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36168966)

The "sovereignty box" stands on its own and is not linked to other consequences.

All this boils down to the Remainers wishing to have preserved the then status quo (disregarding the 'ever closer union' stuff) versus the Leavers wishing to have UK sovereignty and expecting a competent government to facilitate growth of the economy.
This sovereignty which we’ve reclaimed. What practical changes & benefits have we actually utilised that we hadn’t whilst we were still an EU member ?

Sephiroth 29-01-2024 14:00
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36169094)
<SNIP>

This sovereignty which we’ve reclaimed. What practical changes & benefits have we actually utilised that we hadn’t whilst we were still an EU member ?
Sovereignty is a long term project and requires competent government that understands economics and business.

In terms of your question, I take the word "practical" to exclude "sovereignty". So, as yet, no "practical" benefits have occurred. As I've always said, sovereignty has been the driver for me on the basis that business, with (sadly missing) government help, would sort out our progress.

The one thing you Remainers dodge is the sovereignty question: Do you want to be part of a single European state with rules made in Brussels? Remember, we, the British, may look like them, but we don't think like them. Big difference and hence Brexit.

1andrew1 29-01-2024 14:05
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36169094)
1
This sovereignty which we’ve reclaimed. What practical changes & benefits have we actually utilised that we hadn’t whilst we were still an EU member ?
We've been able to take back control of our beaches and introduce our brown flag in place of the blue flag. ;)

Chris 29-01-2024 14:18
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36169094)
as as we’re a smaller negotiating partner im not sure where we will be able to dictate terms with partners that really count.
Smaller than the EU, but not smaller than Canada. The UK economy is in fact substantially larger than Canada’s. As several of us have repeatedly stated, Brexit always was about regaining sovereign control so as to create opportunities, as well as political accountability for the way those opportunities are pursued.

Failure of trade negotiations with Canada is a political failure of the UK government, not a failure of Brexit. But thanks to Brexit, the present government can be held entirely responsible for that failure at the ballot box. No shuffling of EU commissioners, no rearranging of unwieldy rainbow coalitions in Strasbourg.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ry-gdp-levels/

mrmistoffelees 29-01-2024 14:36
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36169097)
Sovereignty is a long term project and requires competent government that understands economics and business.

In terms of your question, I take the word "practical" to exclude "sovereignty". So, as yet, no "practical" benefits have occurred. As I've always said, sovereignty has been the driver for me on the basis that business, with (sadly missing) government help, would sort out our progress.

The one thing you Remainers dodge is the sovereignty question: Do you want to be part of a single European state with rules made in Brussels? Remember, we, the British, may look like them, but we don't think like them. Big difference and hence Brexit.
Honestly ? Considering the ineptitude of the recent Tory governments and the lack of future premise from any of the political parties, why not ?

Didn’t we also have a veto ? That could be used in rules and regulations ?

---------- Post added at 13:36 ---------- Previous post was at 13:35 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36169100)
Smaller than the EU, but not smaller than Canada. The UK economy is in fact substantially larger than Canada’s. As several of us have repeatedly stated, Brexit always was about regaining sovereign control so as to create opportunities, as well as political accountability for the way those opportunities are pursued.

Failure of trade negotiations with Canada is a political failure of the UK government, not a failure of Brexit. But thanks to Brexit, the present government can be held entirely responsible for that failure at the ballot box. No shuffling of EU commissioners, no rearranging of unwieldy rainbow coalitions in Strasbourg.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ry-gdp-levels/
I guess the question I want to ask is, what signs or evidence is there that any future government will be able to perform better in trade negotiations?

Chris 29-01-2024 14:46
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36169102)
Honestly ? Considering the ineptitude of the recent Tory governments and the lack of future premise from any of the political parties, why not ?

Didn’t we also have a veto ? That could be used in rules and regulations ?

I guess the question I want to ask is, what signs or evidence is there that any future government will be able to perform better in trade negotiations?
Well naturally, lurking behind a lot of Europhilia is a belief that we’re somehow not up to the task of governing ourselves and we need the EU to bypass our own second rate governments. It’s a self-defeating position I find impossible to get behind. We can govern ourselves well because we have done in the past. There is nothing in our national psyche that absolutely prevents it, except perhaps the lingering sense of dependency on the EU that should hopefully wane in time.

And no, we did not have a veto on EU trade negotiations. Most decisions are taken by QMV since Lisbon. Cameron’s exceptionally rare use of a veto in the Council was in the area of financial regulation, one of the few areas where the veto still exists.

ianch99 29-01-2024 14:46
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36169097)
Sovereignty is a long term project and requires competent government that understands economics and business.

In terms of your question, I take the word "practical" to exclude "sovereignty". So, as yet, no "practical" benefits have occurred. As I've always said, sovereignty has been the driver for me on the basis that business, with (sadly missing) government help, would sort out our progress.

The one thing you Remainers dodge is the sovereignty question: Do you want to be part of a single European state with rules made in Brussels? Remember, we, the British, may look like them, but we don't think like them. Big difference and hence Brexit.
You are asking a childish question. There was no aim to be part of a single European state. Get a grip.

You constantly obsess about soverinty and yet ignore the extreme damage done to the country. This is the real question here: the cult-like obsession with soverinty, literally at all costs but no contrition, or even acceptance, about the massive cost involved.

Sephiroth 29-01-2024 15:54
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
I have never shied away from criticising the damage done to the country by the incompetent government.

But sovereignty is very important. We fought for it against Germany and now we've broken away from the next iteration of European domination (admittedly not fascist).

All we need is a competent government to support the business environment.

Btw, what "massive cost"? Someone earlier mentioned a cost to consumers of £200 million/year arising from the import controls. What's that? £6/year per consumer? The cost of Covid support is what's hitting us hard financially.

I ask again: Do you want Brussels to make our laws?

Hugh 29-01-2024 16:00
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Got to love subliminal typos… ;)

Quote:
Do want Brussels to make our laws
:D

Sephiroth 29-01-2024 16:11
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36169110)
Got to love subliminal typos… ;)



:D
Edited thanks.

TheDaddy 29-01-2024 17:51
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36169100)
Smaller than the EU, but not smaller than Canada. The UK economy is in fact substantially larger than Canada’s. As several of us have repeatedly stated, Brexit always was about regaining sovereign control so as to create opportunities, as well as political accountability for the way those opportunities are pursued.

Failure of trade negotiations with Canada is a political failure of the UK government, not a failure of Brexit. But thanks to Brexit, the present government can be held entirely responsible for that failure at the ballot box. No shuffling of EU commissioners, no rearranging of unwieldy rainbow coalitions in Strasbourg.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ry-gdp-levels/
At the ballot box where you can get 5 million votes and not return a single MP, where the majority of votes are meaningless and the government formed with 100% of the power for 35% of the vote makes changes to peoples lives for the better (chums and donors) or worse (everyone else) with impunity for 5 years and it's dismissed with a glib we can vote them out

Sephiroth 29-01-2024 18:22
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36169118)
At the ballot box where you can get 5 million votes and not return a single MP, where the majority of votes are meaningless and the government formed with 100% of the power for 35% of the vote makes changes to peoples lives for the better (chums and donors) or worse (everyone else) with impunity for 5 years and it's dismissed with a glib we can vote them out
Will you say the same if Labour get "100% of the power for 35% of the vote"?

1andrew1 29-01-2024 18:54
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36169119)
Will you say the same if Labour get "100% of the power for 35% of the vote"?
I would. It results in a political duopoly. Parties like UKIP and the LibDems don't get the representation in Parliament related to their share of the vote. Some reform is overdue but it's not in the interests of the big two parties to do so.

TheDaddy 29-01-2024 19:11
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36169119)
Will you say the same if Labour get "100% of the power for 35% of the vote"?
Yes, firstly because I've never even voted labour let alone been a member of the party and secondly because unlike you I put what's best for the people of this country first, I'd go further and say brexit was worth it if the country gets proper representation out of it

Sephiroth 29-01-2024 19:37
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36169123)
Yes, firstly because I've never even voted labour let alone been a member of the party and secondly because unlike you I put what's best for the people of this country first, I'd go further and say brexit was worth it if the country gets proper representation out of it
I am 100% for what's best for our people. We might differ on the detail of what's best for our people. However, a competent government sits on top of all that, imo.

mrmistoffelees 29-01-2024 20:07
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36169104)
Well naturally, lurking behind a lot of Europhilia is a belief that we’re somehow not up to the task of governing ourselves and we need the EU to bypass our own second rate governments. It’s a self-defeating position I find impossible to get behind. We can govern ourselves well because we have done in the past. There is nothing in our national psyche that absolutely prevents it, except perhaps the lingering sense of dependency on the EU that should hopefully wane in time.

And no, we did not have a veto on EU trade negotiations. Most decisions are taken by QMV since Lisbon. Cameron’s exceptionally rare use of a veto in the Council was in the area of financial regulation, one of the few areas where the veto still exists.
When was the last time we had a government that did ‘well’ I’m struggling to remember ? And in your opinion what does a government that would do well look like ? It’s not going to be the tories , it won’t be Labour so I’m not sure where a competent government is going to come from?

I wasn’t aware of what the veto allowed us to veto against so thanks for the clarification :)

ianch99 29-01-2024 22:42
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36169118)
At the ballot box where you can get 5 million votes and not return a single MP, where the majority of votes are meaningless and the government formed with 100% of the power for 35% of the vote makes changes to peoples lives for the better (chums and donors) or worse (everyone else) with impunity for 5 years and it's dismissed with a glib we can vote them out
A very good point you make. Where 37% of the electorate decides the social & economic fate of a country for a generation or more and, when it ends up in the predicated train wreck, you get the glib "well, you can always vote them out".

---------- Post added at 21:42 ---------- Previous post was at 21:36 ----------

What I find quite sinister is the post truth revisionist gas-lighting with their justification of their [failed] position:

"Do you want to be part of a single European state with rules made in Brussels"

"Well naturally, lurking behind a lot of Europhilia is a belief that we’re somehow not up to the task of governing ourselves and we need the EU to bypass our own second rate governments"

The mainstream movement who wished to remain part of the EU never advocated for these positions yet out they trot to prop up the justification of where we have ended up. Pure sophistry.

Sephiroth 29-01-2024 22:48
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36169129)
A very good point you make. Where 37% of the electorate decides the social & economic fate of a country for a generation or more and, when it ends up in the predicated train wreck, you get the glib "well, you can always vote them out".

---------- Post added at 21:42 ---------- Previous post was at 21:36 ----------

What I find quite sinister is the post truth revisionist gas-lighting with their justification of their [failed] position:

"Do you want to be part of a single European state with rules made in Brussels"

"Well naturally, lurking behind a lot of Europhilia is a belief that we’re somehow not up to the task of governing ourselves and we need the EU to bypass our own second rate governments"

The mainstream movement who wished to remain part of the EU never advocated for these positions yet out they trot to prop up the justification of where we have ended up. Pure sophistry.
You are being the sophist here by not answering the question.

It's quite simple, really: Do you want to be governed by rules made in Brussels?

Also, on your 37% point, what would have been your attitude had the REMAIN vote won the day on 37% of the eligible population?




ianch99 29-01-2024 22:52
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36169132)
You are being the sophist here by not answering the question.

It's quite simple, really: Do you want to be governed by rules made in Brussels?

Also, on your 37% point, what would have been your attitude had the REMAIN vote won the day on 37% of the eligible population?



Again, post truth deflection. You said:

"Do you want to be part of a single European state with rules made in Brussels?"

Which is it?

As to the 37% point, you are not getting the point. No referendum that changes the macro economic & social trajectory of a [G7] country should EVER be decided on such a low bar, in either direction. A supermajority allied with a minimum turnout was a must.

Sephiroth 29-01-2024 23:46
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36169133)
Again, post truth deflection. You said:

"Do you want to be part of a single European state with rules made in Brussels?"

Which is it?

<SNIP>

Do you want to be part of a single European state with rules made in Brussels?

jfman 29-01-2024 23:49
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36169134)

Do you want to be part of a single European state with rules made in Brussels?
Capitalism states the market makes the rules. And badly.

The question is how big (or small) you want the counterweight of regulation.

mrmistoffelees 30-01-2024 00:07
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36169132)


It's quite simple, really: Do you want to be governed by rules made in Brussels?
Why not? It couldn’t be any worse than the Tories or Labour.

Sephiroth 30-01-2024 00:30
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36169136)
Why not? It couldn’t be any worse than the Tories or Labour.

Surely, the better answer to my question "Do you want to be governed by rules made in Brussels?" would be:

No, of course not. I just want a UK government that is competent.

Hugh 30-01-2024 00:58
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Only one thing sadder than someone who asks a loaded question, is someone who answers their own loaded question, because they lack the confidence that they may get a concurring answer…

---------- Post added at 23:58 ---------- Previous post was at 23:43 ----------

Anyhoo, interesting article from the IEA, that well-know loony left woke tree-hugging organisation*

https://iea.org.uk/why-brexit-was-a-...n-perspective/

Quote:
Many libertarians supported Brexit, believing it would reduce governmental layers and bring power closer to the British people. They saw it as an opportunity to escape the control of Brussels’ technocracy, expecting increased autonomy and economic freedom. However, this article argues that Brexit, rather than decreasing government control, intensified it in the UK. Some libertarians supported Brexit due to a misunderstanding of the European Union’s essential nature and role.

The libertarian argument for Brexit was centred around the idea of eliminating the perceived excessive interference by the EU. Moreover, Brexit was seen as a form of secession, which is often favoured to promote a libertarian agenda. Supporters of Brexit envisioned a rejuvenated Britain, regaining sovereignty and experiencing fewer regulatory constraints. They imagined a country liberated from Brussels and Luxembourg, able to independently navigate its future, potentially leading to greater liberty and economic efficiency. However, this perspective failed to understand the EU’s function and the implications of breaking away from it.

The critique of the EU often portrays it as an overreaching superstate, taking over national sovereignty. This perspective, fuelled by the rhetoric of the EU Commission’s technocrats and the broader Brussels establishment, erroneously suggests ambitions for a European superstate – a misconception that played a role in the United Kingdom’s decision to leave the EU. This interpretation overlooks the true nature and purpose of the EU. Contrary to being an emerging superstate, the EU essentially operates as a collection of regimes designed to check excessive state power. The notion of the EU as a nascent absolute state is a misinterpretation of its real function: to regulate and balance state powers, particularly in economic matters.

The EU originates from the principle of vertical separation of power. Significantly, the EU allows for member withdrawal, underscoring its distinction from absolute states, which are characterised as indivisible. Membership in the EU involves states mutually restricting their arbitrary power – for example, of limiting international trade or controlling the movement of people. These are areas where government policies typically spill over from extensive domestic intervention. In an era where state power is more extensive than ever, the primary method for curbing such power is through a balance of power among states themselves.

The European Union’s foremost goal is to diffuse and limit power, rather than centralise it. This approach is evident in the EU’s efforts to curtail excessive state intervention in trade, capital movement, and the flow of people.

mrmistoffelees 30-01-2024 04:36
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36169137)

Surely, the better answer to my question "Do you want to be governed by rules made in Brussels?" would be:

No, of course not. I just want a UK government that is competent.
It is a better question, but my answer is based on realism not dreams

1andrew1 30-01-2024 09:23
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
DUP agrees deal with UK government to restore power-sharing to Northern Ireland
https://news.sky.com/story/dup-agree...eland-13059737

Good news for Northern Ireland but sovereignty purists will be waking up with a hangover this morning as the detail is unveiled. Those idealists seeking a bold, competent, swashbuckling government willing to take advantage of Britain's Brexit freedoms (whatever that means) will finally have to face up to the fact that we will now be a rule-taker from Brussels and won't be able to shape those rules as we did as an EU member. Labour and the Conservatives will follow this policy.

Have no doubt, this is indeed what it sounds like - a reduction in British sovereignty. We now have less of it than we did as an EU member as we don't have representation in Brussels to influence policies we have to adopt. However, sovereignty tick-boxers can console themselves with the argument that the country could throw this deal out at the ballot box if enough people voted for UKIP.

Sephiroth 30-01-2024 10:25
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36169138)
Only one thing sadder than someone who asks a loaded question, is someone who answers their own loaded question, because they lack the confidence that they may get a concurring answer…

---------- Post added at 23:58 ---------- Previous post was at 23:43 ----------

Anyhoo, interesting article from the IEA, that well-know loony left woke tree-hugging organisation*

https://iea.org.uk/why-brexit-was-a-...n-perspective/



Rather than taking the view of the EU loving IEA, we should look at the actual EU Treaty to which we subscribed, which runs contrary to what Hugh's IEA quote purported. I've emboldened the relevant passages that help make my point.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...=EN#d1e32-13-1

Quote:
CONSOLIDATED VERSION OF THE TREATY ON EUROPEAN UNION

PREAMBLE

HIS MAJESTY THE KING OF THE BELGIANS, HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF DENMARK, THE PRESIDENT OF THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY, THE PRESIDENT OF IRELAND, THE PRESIDENT OF THE HELLENIC REPUBLIC, HIS MAJESTY THE KING OF SPAIN, THE PRESIDENT OF THE FRENCH REPUBLIC, THE PRESIDENT OF THE ITALIAN REPUBLIC, HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS THE GRAND DUKE OF LUXEMBOURG, HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF THE NETHERLANDS, THE PRESIDENT OF THE PORTUGUESE REPUBLIC, HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND, (1)

RESOLVED to mark a new stage in the process of European integration undertaken with the establishment of the European Communities,

DRAWING INSPIRATION from the cultural, religious and humanist inheritance of Europe, from which have developed the universal values of the inviolable and inalienable rights of the human person, freedom, democracy, equality and the rule of law,

RECALLING the historic importance of the ending of the division of the European continent and the need to create firm bases for the construction of the future Europe,

CONFIRMING their attachment to the principles of liberty, democracy and respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms and of the rule of law,

CONFIRMING their attachment to fundamental social rights as defined in the European Social Charter signed at Turin on 18 October 1961 and in the 1989 Community Charter of the Fundamental Social Rights of Workers,

DESIRING to deepen the solidarity between their peoples while respecting their history, their culture and their traditions,

DESIRING to enhance further the democratic and efficient functioning of the institutions so as to enable them better to carry out, within a single institutional framework, the tasks entrusted to them,

RESOLVED to achieve the strengthening and the convergence of their economies and to establish an economic and monetary union including, in accordance with the provisions of this Treaty and of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, a single and stable currency,

DETERMINED to promote economic and social progress for their peoples, taking into account the principle of sustainable development and within the context of the accomplishment of the internal market and of reinforced cohesion and environmental protection, and to implement policies ensuring that advances in economic integration are accompanied by parallel progress in other fields,

RESOLVED to establish a citizenship common to nationals of their countries,

RESOLVED to implement a common foreign and security policy including the progressive framing of a common defence policy, which might lead to a common defence in accordance with the provisions of Article 42, thereby reinforcing the European identity and its independence in order to promote peace, security and progress in Europe and in the world,

RESOLVED to facilitate the free movement of persons, while ensuring the safety and security of their peoples, by establishing an area of freedom, security and justice, in accordance with the provisions of this Treaty and of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union,

RESOLVED to continue the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe, in which decisions are taken as closely as possible to the citizen in accordance with the principle of subsidiarity,

IN VIEW of further steps to be taken in order to advance European integration,

Spoiler: 
[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

1andrew1 30-01-2024 10:33
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36169147)
Rather than taking the view of the EU loving IEA,
I think you lost your argument before you had a chance to make it with this mis-step.

Hugh 30-01-2024 10:54
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36169147)
Rather than taking the view of the EU loving IEA
https://c.tenor.com/3x63SNMKPogAAAAd/tenor.gif

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...or-hard-brexit

Quote:
Rightwing thinktank breached charity law by campaigning for hard Brexit

Institute of Economic Affairs issued with legal warning over its Plan A+ Brexit document

A prominent rightwing thinktank has been accused of “misconduct and mismanagement” and issued with a formal legal warning by the Charity Commission after using its resources to campaign for a hard Brexit.

The Institute of Economic Affairs (IEA) received the formal warning from the watchdog after publishing and campaigning for its Plan A+ hard Brexit proposal document. As a charity the IEA is banned from campaigning on political issues unrelated to its stated purpose of furthering education.

The commission, which regulates the charitable sector, said the publication was a clear attempt to campaign to influence government policy. The IEA launched Plan A+ at an event last September with endorsements from prominent pro-Brexit Conservative MPs, including the former Brexit secretary David Davis and Jacob Rees-Mogg.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23322122

Quote:
Brexit': IEA offers prize for UK exit plan from EU

The Institute of Economic Affairs (IEA) has announced that it is holding a competition to find the best plan for a UK exit from the European Union.

The free-market think tank said it would award its Brexit Prize to whoever came up with the best blueprint for the UK after the EU, covering the country's withdrawal and post-exit repositioning.

Pierre 30-01-2024 12:40
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
I don't know if anyone currently commenting on this thread is aware.

If not I'll just remind you.

Brexit happened, we left the EU on the 31 January 2020 at 11:00 pm.

Just let that marinate in your head, take a deep breath and move on.

1andrew1 30-01-2024 13:07
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36169168)
I don't know if anyone currently commenting on this thread is aware.

If not I'll just remind you.

Brexit happened, we left the EU on the 31 January 2020 at 11:00 pm.

Just let that marinate in your head, take a deep breath and move on.
No one's forcing you to read or participate in this thread. If you're finding the content triggering or tedious then stop following it.

mrmistoffelees 30-01-2024 13:14
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36169168)
I don't know if anyone currently commenting on this thread is aware.

If not I'll just remind you.

Brexit happened, we left the EU on the 31 January 2020 at 11:00 pm.

Just let that marinate in your head, take a deep breath and move on.
So, to clarify, we shouldn’t continue to discuss things that have massively impacted the country that occurred in the past?

1andrew1 30-01-2024 13:31
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36169172)
So, to clarify, we shouldn’t continue to discuss things that have massively impacted the country that occurred in the past?
That's not usually Pierre's style. It could be that he's upset by the NI deal that heavily reduces divergence from EU rules so we become Brussels' rule-taker. Or the lack of a trade deal with Canada that we used to enjoy as an EU member. It's hard to ascertain.

Hugh 30-01-2024 13:41
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36169172)
So, to clarify, we shouldn’t continue to discuss things that have massively impacted the country that occurred in the past?
https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...9&d=1706628941

mrmistoffelees 30-01-2024 13:44
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36169175)
Think I got away with it…….

Dave42 30-01-2024 14:23
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Q; So you're admitting checks would cost a billion £... I thought post brexit checks were not supposed to be disruptive?

Jacob Rees-Mogg(28/04/22): "That's why we're not adopting them, as this would've been an act of self-harm"
https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status...05780819148910

remember even JRM admited it was a act of self harm

Pierre 30-01-2024 15:01
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36169172)
So, to clarify, we shouldn’t continue to discuss things that have massively impacted the country that occurred in the past?
But the last few pages have been discussing things that were discussed in the run up the referendum, eight years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
Do you want to be governed by rules made in Brussels?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees
Why not? It couldn’t be any worse than the Tories or Labour
We were asked that question in 2016, and it was answered.

Sephiroth 30-01-2024 15:03
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 36169177)
https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status...05780819148910

remember even JRM admited it was a act of self harm
JRM said that again in his GB News programme last night.

1andrew1 30-01-2024 15:14
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36169178)
But the last few pages have been discussing things that were discussed in the run up the referendum, eight years ago.
Feel free to talk about all the new Brexit trade deals we've signed if you prefer. ;)

Pierre 30-01-2024 16:02
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36169180)
Feel free to talk about all the new Brexit trade deals we've signed if you prefer. ;)
I'm also happy to talk about the ones we haven't, the reasons why, and why it doesn't matter.

ianch99 30-01-2024 16:09
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36169180)
Feel free to talk about all the new Brexit trade deals we've signed if you prefer. ;)
He really doesn't get it, or more likely, does not want to get it.

Here's a good Newsnight recap of the upcoming new Brexit pain: https://twitter.com/i/status/1752108693364052447

1andrew1 30-01-2024 18:28
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36169183)
He really doesn't get it, or more likely, does not want to get it.

Here's a good Newsnight recap of the upcoming new Brexit pain: https://twitter.com/i/status/1752108693364052447
Hard working families who thought they were voting for cheaper food in 2016 as promised by Rees-Mogg will be disappointed.

Sephiroth 30-01-2024 18:33
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36169189)
Hard working families who thought they were voting for cheaper food in 2016 as promised by Rees-Mogg will be disappointed.
High food prices cannot be wholly blamed on Brexit. Anyway, those voting for Brexit did so to regain sovereignty. They had not bargained for crap government, which we would have had either way.

TheDaddy 30-01-2024 19:12
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36169190)
High food prices cannot be wholly blamed on Brexit. Anyway, those voting for Brexit did so to regain sovereignty. They had not bargained for crap government, which we would have had either way.
There were many reasons people voted for brexit, sovereignty was one but it wasn't the only one, I'd say a dislike of foreigners coming over here and taking our jobs was equally high on the list as was a general feeling of being left behind and forgotten about but that notwithstanding that smug wretch did say to anyone stupid enough to listen that we'd have cheaper food, clothing and footwear straight away and you can argue that we are on our fourth incarnation of government since the vote if we don't include call me dave cutting and running to hide in his yurt

1andrew1 30-01-2024 20:02
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36169190)
High food prices cannot be wholly blamed on Brexit. Anyway, those voting for Brexit did so to regain sovereignty. They had not bargained for crap government, which we would have had either way.
They'll be disappointed on that count if they voted leave to regain sovereignty.

To make the new NI deal work, we won't be able to take advantage of any significant Brexit freedoms as we'll have to adhere to EU standards we don't have any say in. But if we can say we've got our sovereignty back enough times, we might even believe it ourselves! ;)

noel43 30-01-2024 21:09
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36169191)
There were many reasons people voted for brexit, sovereignty was one but it wasn't the only one, I'd say a dislike of foreigners coming over here and taking our jobs was equally high on the list as was a general feeling of being left behind and forgotten about but that notwithstanding that smug wretch did say to anyone stupid enough to listen that we'd have cheaper food, clothing and footwear straight away and you can argue that we are on our fourth incarnation of government since the vote if we don't include call me dave cutting and running to hide in his yurt
The reason they took out jobs BRITS didn't want them.

Pierre 30-01-2024 21:51
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36169183)
He really doesn't get it, or more likely, does not want to get it.

Here's a good Newsnight recap of the upcoming new Brexit pain: https://twitter.com/i/status/1752108693364052447
I do get it, I read about all your positions on Brexit in the recent new book you released.

Brexit Waaagh……,available at all good book shops and Amazon.

mrmistoffelees 30-01-2024 22:31
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36169200)
I do get it, I read about all your positions on Brexit in the recent new book you released.

Brexit Waaagh……,available at all good book shops and Amazon.
I remember seeing thar, it was right next to Pierre: My superiority complex and I

ianch99 30-01-2024 23:28
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36169202)
I remember seeing thar, it was right next to Pierre: My superiority complex and I
Did he say something? I can't tell :)

---------- Post added at 22:28 ---------- Previous post was at 22:27 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36169190)
High food prices cannot be wholly blamed on Brexit. Anyway, those voting for Brexit did so to regain sovereignty. They had not bargained for crap government, which we would have had either way.
No they didn't. Some did, a lot did not. Truth matters

TheDaddy 30-01-2024 23:32
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by noel43 (Post 36169199)
The reason they took out jobs BRITS didn't want them.
and nor should they, whatever happened to aspiration or wanting better for your children, why lumber them on the bottom rung of the ladder when there is people happy to do those jobs

Pierre 31-01-2024 00:03
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36169202)
I remember seeing thar, it was right next to Pierre: My superiority complex and I
I can’t help your inferiority complex

Quote:
Did he say something? I can't tell
Waaaagh.

Hugh 31-01-2024 00:24
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Let’s keep to the topic, and less of the personal attacks, please.

Sephiroth 31-01-2024 17:43
Re: Britain outside the EU
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-n...eland-68148976

Looks like the government has got something right in respect of Brexit.

Hugh 31-01-2024 18:59
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36169237)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-n...eland-68148976

Looks like the government has got something right in respect of Brexit.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-68157167

Quote:
What will it mean for Irish Sea border goods checks?

Most significantly, the DUP's deal with the government will reduce checks and paperwork on goods moving from the rest of the UK into Northern Ireland.

It means there would no longer be "routine" checks on GB goods which are sent to Northern Ireland with the intention of staying there.

Those changes involve the maximum flexibility allowed under a previous EU/UK deal.

It is understood the move will be acceptable to the EU.

On Tuesday the UK and EU Joint Committee reached agreement to make changes to that previous deal to allow Northern Ireland to benefit from UK Free Trade Agreements.

The UK government will also introduce two pieces of legislation to guarantee Northern Ireland goods can be sold in GB in all circumstances and to affirm Northern Ireland's place in the UK.

1andrew1 31-01-2024 19:11
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36169237)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-n...eland-68148976

Looks like the government has got something right in respect of Brexit.
I've always felt that Sunak's one of the more competent PMs out of the last few PMs we've had and this supports my argument. Not that the bar was especially high, mind.

jfman 31-01-2024 19:24
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36169246)
I've always felt that Sunak's one of the more competent PMs out of the last few PMs we've had and this supports my argument. Not that the bar was especially high, mind.
That’s like being the smartest kid in the nursery.

Pierre 31-01-2024 22:22
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36169247)
That’s like being the smartest kid in the nursery.
It’s funny ‘cos it’s true.

Hugh 01-02-2024 13:12
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
1 Attachment(s)
Latest missive from that negotiations genius, Lord Frost.

https://x.com/davidghfrost/status/17...Fx9lsEXWlOa1jg

Quote:
Four years ago tonight I was at No10 with @BorisJohnson getting Brexit finally done.

Britain has been re-established as a true national democracy in which national elections really matter.

Despite the harping criticisms of many, then and now, the predictions of doom have never materialised and the British economy is doing at least as well as its European competitors.
Only problem is, like so much he says, it’s a lie…

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk...fings/sn02784/

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...4&d=1706789494

TheDaddy 06-02-2024 16:43
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
I missed The Victorian Ring Wraith on GB news the other day telling farmers how much better off they are free of EU regulations oddly the farmers seemed to disagree, so much so many seem to had the temerity to go bust, mind you we can't say we weren't warned that farming would have to be sacrificed by Patrick Minford himself and nothing reeks of sovereignty more than relying on other countries for your food

ianch99 07-02-2024 16:12
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36169504)
I missed The Victorian Ring Wraith on GB news the other day telling farmers how much better off they are free of EU regulations oddly the farmers seemed to disagree, so much so many seem to had the temerity to go bust, mind you we can't say we weren't warned that farming would have to be sacrificed by Patrick Minford himself and nothing reeks of sovereignty more than relying on other countries for your food
Talking about the Rees-Moggs, the said Wraith's father wrote a few books, basically on how to make (a lot of) money from the poor. One book was titled "The Sovereign Individual" and it clearly inspired his son. It contains this very prescient line:

Quote:
The book also foresaw a backlash against the footloose, cosmopolitan elites that digital technology would help create. The economy’s “losers”, as Rees-Mogg and Davidson called them, who “do not excel in problem-solving or possess globally marketable skills”, would turn to nationalism and bitter nostalgia. They would “seek to thwart the movement of capital and people across borders”.
My, oh my ...

Sephiroth 07-02-2024 17:04
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36169577)
Talking about the Rees-Moggs, the said Wraith's father wrote a few books, basically on how to make (a lot of) money from the poor. One book was titled "The Sovereign Individual" and it clearly inspired his son. It contains this very prescient line:



My, oh my ...
'My, oh my' what?

ianch99 07-02-2024 19:18
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36169586)
'My, oh my' what?
It's not hard, I even put it in bold for you :)

Quote:
The economy’s “losers”, as Rees-Mogg and Davidson called them, who “do not excel in problem-solving or possess globally marketable skills”, would turn to nationalism and bitter nostalgia. They would “seek to thwart the movement of capital and people across borders

Sephiroth 07-02-2024 19:23
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
I still don't see what's so "my, oh my" about that.

TheDaddy 07-02-2024 19:56
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36169601)
I still don't see what's so "my, oh my" about that.
Course you don't, you probably hope it happens

ianch99 07-02-2024 19:59
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36169606)
Course you don't, you probably hope it happens
It already has! It was the 2016 mission statement.

ianch99 14-02-2024 12:09
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Just a reminder of the damage this country has suffered since 2016:

Brexit Britain has ‘significantly underperformed’ other advanced economies, Goldman Sachs says

Quote:
KEY POINTS

- The U.K. economy is worse off today than before Brexit, according to new analysis from Goldman Sachs.

- Britain’s decision to leave the European Union has hampered the economy to the tune of 5% versus other comparable countries, the estimates showed.

- The Wall Street bank attributed the shortfall to three key factors: reduced trade; weaker business investment; and lower immigration from the EU.
Other articles based on the same GS report:

Brexit has damaged U.K. economy with higher inflation and much weaker growth, Goldman Sachs says in new study

Goldman Says UK Economy Suffering ‘Long-Term’ Cost of Brexit

Remember, all this in exchange for a handful of "sovringty" beans ...

1andrew1 14-02-2024 17:48
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36170088)
Just a reminder of the damage this country has suffered since 2016:

Brexit Britain has ‘significantly underperformed’ other advanced economies, Goldman Sachs says



Other articles based on the same GS report:

Brexit has damaged U.K. economy with higher inflation and much weaker growth, Goldman Sachs says in new study

Goldman Says UK Economy Suffering ‘Long-Term’ Cost of Brexit

Remember, all this in exchange for a handful of "sovringty" beans ...
We can't have much additional sovereignty or this will breach the agreement for Northern Ireland. It becomes tick box sovereignty in return for a GDP loss of 5% or more.

With inflation at 4% compared to the Eurozone's 2.9% and the US's 3.1%, can we finally acknowledge that this is not down to Covid?

Sephiroth 14-02-2024 18:28
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
It's down to bad government.

Hugh 14-02-2024 18:30
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
First post in this thread…

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36064472)
So, now we have left the European Union. What now? How do we navigate our way ahead? How do we make the decision of the electorate work in practice?

Frankly, I am looking forward to making deals with all these other trading blocs around the world that are purely arrangements about trade and that don’t try to force you into some sort of political union.

Does anyone have any views on what our priorities should be? Personally, I think the next big deal should be with the US, and we need to bring in those free ports that the PM referred to a few months ago as soon as possible.

Should our farmers be gearing up to produce more now that we are free of the wasteful CAP? Which new markets should we be exploiting after the US?

So many questions...so many opportunities.
Trade deals: What has the UK done since Brexit?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47213842

Quote:
Since Brexit, the UK has signed trade deals and agreements in principle with about 70 countries and one with the EU.

However, the majority of these are simply "rollovers" - meaning they copied the terms of deals the UK previously had when it was an EU member, rather than creating new trading arrangements.

And some of them are with countries with which the UK does very little trade.
A deal with Japan was signed in October 2020. It was the first that differed from the existing EU trade deal.

The Australia deal was the first trade agreement negotiated from scratch by the UK since it left the EU. UK farmers warned they could be undercut by cheap imports, which could cost jobs. However, the UK government insists the deal contains protections for the sector.

An agreement with Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein was announced in June 2021 and builds on the previous agreement the UK had with these countries.

The UK signed a new deal with New Zealand on 28 February 2022.
New Zealand is a small trading partner, accounting for less than 0.2% of total UK trade.
While the deal is unlikely to boost the UK economy by much, it could lead to more New Zealand lamb being sold in the UK.

The UK has also agreed to join an existing trade agreement between 11 Pacific Rim nations. The government expects to become a member of the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP) in the second half of 2024.

Talks with India began in early 2022, although no deal has been reached.

And there has not been a deal agreed with the US, although it had been set as a priority in the Conservative 2019 manifesto.

Rishi Sunak said in June 2023 that a full free trade agreement had not in fact been a priority for either country "for a while now", although a more limited economic agreement called the Atlantic Declaration was signed.
https://bmmagazine.co.uk/news/uk-far...rexit-imports/

Quote:
UK farmers are gearing up for more protests reminiscent of French-style blockades following a recent slow tractor protest at Dover.

The demonstration was aimed at highlighting concerns over low supermarket prices and the influx of cheap food imports resulting from post-Brexit trade deals.

Approximately 40 tractors and other farm vehicles caused disruptions around the Kent port for several hours by driving slowly and displaying signs with slogans such as “No More Cheap Imports”.

Kent farmers are set to convene again this week to discuss potential further action, with the possibility of other campaigns joining in fueled by widespread discontent among farmers…

… The trigger for the recent protest includes concerns over tariff-free wheat from Ukraine and cheap lamb from New Zealand flooding the market, exacerbating the challenges faced by UK farmers. Brexit-related complexities in exporting goods and perceived lack of change in importing procedures have compounded the issue.
I’m sure we’ll have a Trade Deal with the USA by 2035…

mrmistoffelees 14-02-2024 20:37
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36170123)
It's down to bad government.

You can’t make a silk purse out of a sows ear*



*You can however make a very interesting novelty luggage tag

TheDaddy 14-02-2024 20:47
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36170123)
It's down to bad government.
Oh right, its not due to remoaners anymore or the EU being mean to us, it's down to bad government of which there have been 5 incarnations of since the vote, how many more governments have to come and go before it's down to something else?

Pierre 14-02-2024 22:44
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36170088)
Just a reminder of the damage this country has suffered since 2016:

Brexit Britain has ‘significantly underperformed’ other advanced economies, Goldman Sachs says



Other articles based on the same GS report:

Brexit has damaged U.K. economy with higher inflation and much weaker growth, Goldman Sachs says in new study

Goldman Says UK Economy Suffering ‘Long-Term’ Cost of Brexit

Remember, all this in exchange for a handful of "sovringty" beans ...
Waargh, Waargh, Waargh. :bigcry:

1andrew1 14-02-2024 22:45
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36170123)
It's down to bad government.
After so many governments, that particular excuse for under-performing against our peers has aged more quickly than the oft-quoted Covid one.

ianch99 14-02-2024 22:53
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36170132)
Oh right, its not due to remoaners anymore or the EU being mean to us, it's down to bad government of which there have been 5 incarnations of since the vote, how many more governments have to come and go before it's down to something else?
You are wasting your time. If you believe the dogma so much, you cannot row back and accept the reality. Instead, you kick on and dig deeper. You have to, to do anything else is a massive loss of face. You then end up in a post-truth cult.

Look at all the grifters on GB News, they know their time in the sun is ending. They will end up eaten by their own - Farage is coming for the Tories that survive the cull. Enjoy!

Sephiroth 15-02-2024 07:53
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36170132)
Oh right, its not due to remoaners anymore or the EU being mean to us, it's down to bad government of which there have been 5 incarnations of since the vote, how many more governments have to come and go before it's down to something else?
Don't be silly. I've never said it was down to Remoaners.
They are just whinging annoyances. The government has the means to make Brexit succeed.

Sirius 15-02-2024 07:57
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
I have NEVER voted for Labour my whole life and i am 64 this year, however considering that Brexit has been a complete and utter *ukup. If Labour promised a referendum on rejoining the EU i MIGHT just be tempted to vote for them. Lets face it we will have to put up with a Labour government next as the present government could not organise a piss up in a brewery

mrmistoffelees 15-02-2024 08:10
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
And now we’re officially in a recession

denphone 15-02-2024 08:37
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36170171)
And now we’re officially in a recession
Tell me how Sunaks five pledges went.;)

Sephiroth 15-02-2024 08:57
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36170152)
You are wasting your time. If you believe the dogma so much, you cannot row back and accept the reality. Instead, you kick on and dig deeper. You have to, to do anything else is a massive loss of face. You then end up in a post-truth cult.

Look at all the grifters on GB News, they know their time in the sun is ending. They will end up eaten by their own - Farage is coming for the Tories that survive the cull. Enjoy!

Clearly that is a sideswipe at me. Well, it's obvious from my remarks that I accept the reality. It doesn't mean that we should not have escaped the clutches of the EU. And there's the essence: "clutches of the EU". Everything pivots on that - Remainer vs Leaver.




---------- Post added at 08:57 ---------- Previous post was at 08:56 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36170174)
Tell me how Sunaks five pledges went.;)
Not much better than Starmer's broken pledges.

mrmistoffelees 15-02-2024 09:54
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36170175)

Clearly that is a sideswipe at me. Well, it's obvious from my remarks that I accept the reality. It doesn't mean that we should not have escaped the clutches of the EU. And there's the essence: "clutches of the EU". Everything pivots on that - Remainer vs Leaver.




---------- Post added at 08:57 ---------- Previous post was at 08:56 ----------



Not much better than Starmer's broken pledges.
If your last line is your best arguement then I think you need to take a break from the keyboard and have a cuppa.

tweetiepooh 15-02-2024 10:09
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 36170170)
I have NEVER voted for Labour my whole life and i am 64 this year, however considering that Brexit has been a complete and utter *ukup. If Labour promised a referendum on rejoining the EU i MIGHT just be tempted to vote for them. Lets face it we will have to put up with a Labour government next as the present government could not organise a piss up in a brewery
That would be better than pissing in the brewery. I would never vote for any party that would hint at rejoining that godless union.


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 14:09.
Page 59 of 63 « First 94955565758 59 60616263
Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
All Posts and Content are © Cable Forum