Re: Britain outside the EU
 

1. Some might argue that given that a proportionate number of elected decision makers and appointed Brussels civil servants were British, we weren't governed by a foreign entity.

2. How did that technical gain in sovereignty actually translate into having more control over the destiny of the country? For example. did that mean that we could get better trade deals than we did through the EU? I know it's early days, and Moggy's 50 years aren't up yet, but have Mr and Mrs Soap seen positive outcomes from this increase in sovereignty?

3. Did we need to leave the EU for an investment wizard to make the country prosperous? After all, up until the global crash of 2008, it could be argued that the outcomes of Labour's investment in people and things were improved by access to the Single Market and other EU institutions..

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

[QUOTE=roughbeast;36165783]Here we go!

Quote:

1. Some might argue that given that a proportionate number of elected decision makers and appointed Brussels civil servants were British, we weren't governed by a foreign entity.

Why guard your remark with "some might argue"? What is your belief? The civil servants execute EU policy. It is EU policy to bring about "ever closer union" which the UK majority did not want and a whole raft of people (principally young) did not understand.

Quote:

2. How did that technical gain in sovereignty actually translate into having more control over the destiny of the country? For example. did that mean that we could get better trade deals than we did through the EU? I know it's early days, and Moggy's 50 years aren't up yet, but have Mr and Mrs Soap seen positive outcomes from this increase in sovereignty?

Your question is blinkered Remoaner language. As I've consistently said, it takes a competent government to create the business friendly environment that will make as prosper (without taking orders from Brussels). Sadly, we don't have that government. Plus COVID knocked a £40 billion hole in our economy and Truss a further similar sum.

Quote:

3. Did we need to leave the EU for an investment wizard to make the country prosperous? After all, up until the global crash of 2008, it could be argued that the outcomes of Labour's investment in people and things were improved by access to the Single Market and other EU institutions.

No, we did not need to leave the EU to meet your criteria. We did need to leave the EU for so long as they wanted to make their supreme court superior to ours. I draw the line at that for a very simple reason that we should all support: Why is the EU Parliament so keen on EU integration as a single political entity? Answer: So that they have superiority over our and other parliaments. . That is unacceptable to me and should be to you. We may all look alike, but we don't sufficiently think alike.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So good! A double pun, OB & Dyson in one go :)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I guess it would be one that matches some of what the country was promised which included:

• Reduced NHS waiting times
• Rising wages
• Cheaper weekly food shop
• Resurgent economy led by new small businesses
• Easier to get onto the housing ladder
• Politicians more accountable

https://www.indy100.com/politics/lea...ign-video-lies

I think the current approach by Leavers is either to kick the tin can down the alley ("we need to wait 40 years to see the fruits of Brexit", "we just need another prime minister, the previous four couldn't make Brexit work so we'll try the same thing again and hope for different results") or to focus on sovereignty and forget the financial promises.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Wages are rising, I'm pretty sure of that, we might all be worse of because of inflation but as the company I work for provides services to some of the countries biggest companies after speaking to their workers I'm certain wages are going up, substantially, I do recall smug saying that we'd have cheaper food, clothes and footwear straight away he was quite emphatic about the straight away bit to whereas the only thing he did straight away was move his company/ fund/ whatever to Ireland, it's a shame they didn't tell him to shove it, you campaigned for this, suck it up

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Membership of the EU was always a trade-off between the pros & cons of being part of such an entity. It is plain to see who much we benefited when you look at the economic growth since we joined the Common Market all those years ago. What was never recognised by the small cabal of sovereignty zealots that drove the Brexit agenda was the fact that the economic DNA of the UK was intertwined with the EU at the smallest level of business. From zero-tariff trade, just-in-time supply chains sources parts from the EU to the ability to source workers, who were economically net-positive, to fill the gaps in our domestic labour market.

Surgically extracting a 40+ year old economic nervous system was always going to be a lose-lose situation. Always. Now here's the rub, those zealots who voted Brexit based on their perception of sovereignty, will never address the lies told at the time to get their project over the line. They still won't. The damage to the country in so many ways will never be honestly discussed and here lies the real problem.

What is less than obvious is the technical gain in sovereignty much celebrated is actually a danger of sorts. While we were part of the EU, as a rules-based organisation, we had checks & balances in place that curbed the excesses of member state governments. We had to abide by environment controls & standards, we had common standards on all sorts of things: food ingredients, etc.

Now, we have no such controls and as such, our Government can take us in a direction far beyond what would have been tolerated when in the EU. Elect a right wing, populous, Government and we're on a crazy train to being a 1st world banana republic. You could argue we on that train already.

In summary, it was all a big con. The sovereignty pot of gold at the end of the rainbow turned out to be, as it always was going to do, a handful of dried beans sold to you by a pack of non-dom spivs. The only funny part of all this is that many of those who voted Leave in the hope that we would have fewer immigrants, now have so many more and here's the kicker, they are not the colour they may have wished for :)

The inexorable tide of demographics will lead us back into the EU, probably via incremental steps e.g. EFTA first, in approx. 10 years.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

[QUOTE=Sephiroth;36165784]1. I was being tentative because it is a subject open to debate. Your assertion that were virtually locked into an evert closer Europe is irrelevant to the point being made about how EU rules by us and it is also wrong. We had a veto and such major steps as that and we weren't th eonly EU member country against the idea.

2. My statement was a very simple one regardless of my status as a Leaver or Remainer. (Remoaner is a pejorative term, designed to keep the debate at an 'us and them' level.) We did very well in the EU when we had a government committed to investment In trading, science and technology terms, our membership supported that prosperity. What evidence do you have that a similar government now would do as well as New labour?

3. The ECJ only applied to areas of law we agreed to as a sovereign state, i.e. those areas that were of common interest such as the environment, health and safety, fish, product standards, worker and human rights. The latter was required because of free movement. All other areas of law, the large majority, were nothing to do with the EU. Our courts remained supreme over those because we were a sovereign state. Again, the EU had no collective interest in moving ever closer. A few notable individuals and a couple of countries did, but most of the 500 million population and the 27 countries did not wish it.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Excuse my fat fingers on my phone. The first sentence should read "... is irrelevant to the point being made about EU rules being made by us..."

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Wages are mostly rising because of runaway inflation. No employer, even the government, could ignore that completely.

---------- Post added at 22:05 ---------- Previous post was at 20:59 ----------

1. Still name-calling? Why are you behaving like a troll instead of like a grownup?

2. In 1975 I voted against staying in the EEC because it was just a capitalist club. With the introduction of the Social Chapter and other measures forcing capitalism to show its acceptable face, I warmed to the project. I was particularly impressed at how the Commission was used to overcome the natural democratic deficit that comes with size. Again, because the EU is a democracy, France didn't get to bully its way and states didn't vote to remove the veto on anything that mattered. France had to concede that it would have to do without the CAP over time.

3. We were intertwined with the EU right down to the minutia, but because of political opposition Brown had to fake the argument that our economy wasn't congruent with the Eurozone economy yet. Blair was for joining.

The only country to fall foul of the rigour required to be in the Eurozone was Greece. Greece had faked its economic data to make it appear ready to join. Blame Greece not the EU.

4. We may have gained technical sovereignty in some respects, but we have lost control and influence in many ways.

5. In good times, before the UK political pendulum began to swing to the right, we helped create, and often initiated, EU law regarding environment, product standards, worker rights and human rights. We still are arbitted by the ECJ regarding products for the reasons you gave. That is the price of tariff-free trade with economic blocs. However, because we aren't signed up to a customs union we have to have our goods checked. Regarding worker and human rights and the environment we are already eroding those standards. Also, Whitehall has been asked to systematically go through all EU laws that Parliament adopted to winkle out which bits The Tories don't want.

6. Again you insult someone. Why accuse someone for being "dafter" than you thought, just because their take on red wall voter motives is different than yours. Adult debate, requires adult conduct.

In my view the red wall voted Leave out of frustration that their lives had become blighted since 2010 with the effects of dogma-driven austerity. The genius of Farage, Cummings and Tice was that they successful spun that our woes were due to the EU and particularly immigration from the EU. EU workers were blamed for longer waiting times in the NHS and for lack of school places. The real immorality here was that even though EU workers paid their way and increased our GDP the extra revenue was not put into extra hospitals or school places or into towns with high EU immigration like Boston. Austerity dogma won! Farage also successfully linked the arrival of asylum seekers and refugees with the EU through his disgraceful Breaking Point poster.

The good thing is that red wall voters have seen the flow of asylum seekers increase since we left the EU, legal immigration soar and their lives have get worse, albeit all for multiple reasons, not just because we left the EU. How did The Who put it? "We won't get fooled again!" Red Wall voters won't be voting for those who deceived them again.

7. We might agree about your last point. A shallow game is being played by the political combatants with inhumane, surface-scratching, headline gestures such as Rwanda, detention barges and stopping worker's families coming with them. Starmer is as shallow as any, with no real policies to increase our skills set to combat excessive immigration and no attempt to stop the boats by opening up controlled safe routes for everyday asylum seekers. A year ago, he made that suggestion, but buried it again when red wall voters appeared not to like it.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Pre crisis of living they were rising too, the bonuses people were being offered for simply accepting a job were good

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yawn .. heard it all before. As I mentioned, you do not address the reality of what happened, rather you spin the old fairy tales that it would have been fine if it wasn't for those pesky Tories. Racism & xenophobia was a factor in 2016, you may not be able to see this but it was real. Farage's Breaking Point poster was all about this. Very deliberate.

Your replies are too patronising to engage with. Adult problems require adult discussion and I see nothing of that here.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

How it started in 2017
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...th-trump-aides

Six years later
https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...uk-rishi-sunak

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

And yet Uk banks and City Financial institutions report our income to USA and EU. Brexit changed nothing.

I was told it has nothing to do with data protection, there are agreements to share such info between EU and USA (UK has signed while in EU)

So, I got new Chinese bank accounts. I received my new Beijing card today. It can be linked with multiple accounts in US dollar, HK dollar, Euro, pound sterling and renminbi.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'm confused, you trust Chinese banks more than UK [or USA] banks ?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

What was never explained clearly in the run up to the referendum was that even if we did get full free trade deals with the USA, India and China combined that would not make up for the volume and value of trade we were likely to lose with the EU under most Brexit scenarios, apart from remaining members of the EEA.

To get a trade deal with the USA before the next GE would have been a political boost in the headlines for the Conservatives, but a cold hard look at its worth in terms of trade and GDP would have dampened their Brexit fervour.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That and the India trade deal was all that people like Old Boy talked about as the means to recover our ongoing GDP reduction. The USA trade deal was also in the 2019 conservative Manifesto.

"Give us a little more time guv, I'll get this hole filled. Just need another brew." Yeah, right.

That bus slogan was literally all about money and not sovereignty. You're trying to move the goalposts as it has not delivered financially.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Realists accept that it has lead to a long-term reduction in UK GDP of at least 4% and weakens our global influence. I don't think you're quite there yet.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Unfortunately, "It has to therefore it will" doesn't tick most realistic people's boxes as an economic theory.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Always amusing when someone accuses someone of a behaviour, then immediately follows it with the same alleged behaviour…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

We had a hell of a lot of influence, countries might not have liked us but they respected us and that went down the toilet with our decision to invade Iraq and has kept going further down the cesspit ever since

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

True, it is actually fantasy

---------- Post added at 15:04 ---------- Previous post was at 14:58 ----------

Said the true fantasy revisionist. I am sure you will provide us with many posts from you, and others, clearly forecasting the economic damage that was "always understood".

For those, like you, who only really care about dogma then yes, it was always going to be just about "sovereignty" or rather the illusory benefits thereof.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The City knows that's an unworkable fantasy and Truss's short stay in power should demonstrate this to all but her deluded followers.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Barclays recommended it: it is an Amex, Visa and Mastercard all in one. It comes with BARCLAYS protection. No fee, no currency exchange fees as it comes with currencies I mentioned.

No reporting to EU or USA. I am an "accidental American" (please google it) like Bojo and I am fed up filling all those dual taxation forms.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not if you increase the red tape on British business it won't!
https://www.ft.com/content/203f0d33-...e-b578ad3dec52

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

https://wapo.st/487K7hS

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'm sure the French cheese manufacturers are chuckling at the UK's expense!
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...f-free-exports

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The thing that saddens me most about this is the evident glee taken by some of you at the prospect of British exporters losing business. It’s as if your need to feel a sense of validation of your beliefs is the only thing of any real importance to you in this post-Brexit world.

As to the specific case in hand, it has been pointed out innumerable times before that Brexit per se is not the problem here. Sovereign nations the world over do trade deals all the time. That is the normal state of affairs between sovereign nation states. Only those blinded by proximity to the EU and careless as to the cost in terms of sovereignty of surrendering to the EU in order to secure cheap cheese exports fail to see this.

The problem here is that we are saddled with a government whose incompetence knows no depths and which is transfixed by the likelihood of getting wiped out at the coming election. There is a paralysis at the top of the Tory party that is preventing it use what little skills it has to address the boundless opportunities presented by our freedom from the Acquis.

Nevertheless, one of the principal benefits of Brexit is that political accountability ends at Westminster and nowhere else. Parties vying for election in the coming months will have to address these issues in ways nobody has had to since the very early 1970s. That is a good thing.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think sympathy should be reserved for the staff at British firms whose exports look to be curtailed by Brexit.

It's not Sunak who negotiates trade deals, it's civil servants. We've tried changing the Prime Minister three times without success. That's because we cannot alter the fundamentals that 27 countries have more negotiating power than one.

Try as I might, I'm struggling to find the positive in an incoming British government inheriting a trade deal which prevents some exports to Canada.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Civil servants are presented with policy objectives and work from there. They also take political guidance via the department’s permanent secretary and when a high profile negotiation reaches a critical phase they advise ministers who attend directly.

We don’t live in a technocracy, though that is more akin to the way the EU operates, as its inner workings owe much to the French model of government. The success or failure of trade deals for the UK will always be a matter of political will and skill. Sadly our present administration lacks both.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The civil service is left-leaning and anti-Brexit anyway. This change from the neutrality they once adopted will eventually bite them in the bum when new governments bring in their own administrations to help them develop and roll out their policies.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Evidence?

Even if we accept your flawed notion, what makes you think a future Government have more success than this one - or Boris’s Brexityest Government ever. If we just have to believe, surely they’d have nailed it.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

When the Conservatives have shifted the Overton Window so far to the right, anyone who was previously classed as Centre or Centre-Right is now regarded as "left-leaning"…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Interesting as many would say the opposite, that being centrist would now see you labelled as “far right”

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

"many"?

I was an active member in the Conservative Party in the 80’s, 90’s, and early 00’s, at Local and National level, and it was a much broader church than it is now, with diversity of views in the Cabinet - the ERG/ex-UKIP have taken over, and no one could describe them as "centrist"…

People like John Major, Ken Baker, Michael Heseltine, William Hague, Ken Clarke, Douglas Hurd, & Malcolm Rifkind were Centrist.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Many Conservative ministers are frustrated by the deliberate stalling and pushback on policy issues by civil servants who are opposed to them. The government then has to take the brunt of these failures and it makes them look bad.

Do you really think future Conservative governments are going to put up with this behaviour when they take office in the future?

The whole existence of our system was predicated on the basis that officers would adopt a neutral position and faithfully advise and implement policies of whichever government was in power at the time. This balance is no longer in evidence, so unless the civil service can reform itself, politicians will have to make it happen.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Has this actually happened or have you dreampt it? Can you support this strong allegation with links to trustworthy sources?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Do you have any evidence of this?

I don’t believe the issue exists at all, and there’s scant evidence offered. I can’t answer to how a potential future Conservative Government addresses an issue that doesn’t exist.

There’s no reason for any Government to put up with such an issue should it exist. Civil servants have served under Conservative led Governments longer than Labour ones without issue. Occam’s razor suggests the problem is the inadequacies of Ministers, and not Civil Servants, that are holding our country back.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I find this hard to believe, I presume you have evidence to back this up.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

How dare they?

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...3&d=1703621345

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...tain-transport

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I read the newspapers and I hear what Conservative MPs are saying.

Once again, another example of people who disagree with them hijacking your comments without providing any proof to the contrary. This is how one shuts down the discussion.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So .. no then, you dont have any. ;)

If you come into a topic and state "the moon is made of cheese" then you should be able to back that up if asked, its not up to others to provide "proof to the contrary" (of course, they can if they want).

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The news media and Conservative MPs, organisations well known for their commitment to the truth. :rofl:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Comedy gold. :D

If the EU had included us on the map, how would the Br'Express have reacted?

:)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You may try to deny the truth to suit your own political agenda and attempt to rubbish anyone who disagrees with you by ttying to humiliate them, but people aren't stupid - they see what you are doing.

You don't need me to provide you with proof because the proof is out there and you can look it up for yourself if you really want to show that a poster is wrong.

In this case, I did just one Google search and came up with this one at the top of the list. And...guess what? It's a Guardian article. So it must be legitimate, eh?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...r-raab-scandal

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Meanwhile, back to reality…

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67795075

I bet the Civil Servants fiddled the results, to thwart Johnson’s promise… :rolleyes:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Nobody has disputed that the lazy trope is a CCHQ attack line that some are well versed in to deflect from Government incompetence or inadequacy. To find it referenced in an article where a Minister has been forced out in disgrace is unsurprising, perhaps even expected.

We've asked for evidence of it actually happening.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

One person leaving the Civil Service to work for a political party does not support the sweeping generalisation.

Lord Frost was a civil servant in times gone by, now he's a Conservative peer.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Just repeatedly saying something doesn’t make it a fact - a fact is something supported by proof, not a feeling…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Old Boy, I can't see a political agenda on Paul's part here - he is just asking you to provide some evidence.

From court rooms to forums, the burden of proof is with the person making a statement to back it up with evidence. Not on someone else to disprove it.

You've begrudgingly attempted to find some supporting evidence here but the article does not evidence your claim that there is

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

1. No proof

2. Proof

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

No problem as we can still drive around on our badly maintained but sovereign roads :)

---------- Post added at 10:50 ---------- Previous post was at 10:45 ----------

You could argue, but not in court, that providing no proof at all is a quite lazy position?

BTW, loving the selection from the playground lexicon so early in the day :)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Imagine being the operative word.

https://www.gov.uk/government/people/sue-gray

The truth is Sue Gray will have had an extremely limited say in the people who work in the vast Departments she has served in.

To take just one example how did she thwart Brexit while on secondment to the Department of Finance in Northern Ireland? Did dozens, if not hundreds, of people all uproot their lives to go with her on her three year placement?

Or, more likely, did she just work with the people already in place, many of whom will have been there for years if not decades.

The evidence base for pushing back against Brexit would be worth a read if anyone could present it. Again it’s more likely that Ministers lacked the skills, knowledge or expertise required for their roles. Where limitations existed within the civil service it was official government position to remain, then leave with a deal, then leave without one. Working a shadow civil service against these positions would have been the textbook definition of insubordination.

With Parliament unable to agree and Johnson’s purge of anyone who backed remain we didn’t have a Government of all the talents we had one with none of the talents from the Conservative benches.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It's lazier not to provide proof than it is to provide it!

---------- Post added at 11:46 ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 ----------

Don't worry, our sovereign pot holes in London are being fixed as this will improve connectivity in the North. As even the Daily Mail reports,
Ministers mocked after boasting of using £235million taken from cancelling HS2 train line to fix roads in London ... and branding it part of a scheme to improve connectivity in the North

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You appear to have moved from "fact" to "opinion"…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I welcome the move.

---------- Post added at 13:01 ---------- Previous post was at 12:56 ----------

If you don't provide anything for people to discuss then the debate doesn't go anywhere.

There have been millions of civil servants employed since it was established. One civil servant getting a gig at the Labour Party can't be extrapolated to represent the views of most of those civil servants! That assumption would fail a GCSE Maths test!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

There are 489,000 civil servants - they aren't obliged to not have political views they're obliged to be impartial in their day to day duties. There's no reason to expect them to individually hold views materially different from the population as a whole, adjusted for working age and other demographics. There will be right wing and left wing civil servants working side by side.

Even still - it's not clear Sue Gray is an example of anything other than a rational person moving to a new job with better career prospects. It's not like she's volunteering on her own time to go round door knocking.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Jacques Delors has died aged 98.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67830106

I imagine the Sun is pleased.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That’s what Lord McDonald thinks, not what Raab and many others in the government think. You completely missed my point, as usual. :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 20:11 ---------- Previous post was at 20:07 ----------

I said that is what many Conservatives think. You are again changing the thrust of the argument. Do your own research. I am not your slave or researcher.

---------- Post added at 20:13 ---------- Previous post was at 20:11 ----------

Civil servants are supposed to be politically neutral. This clearly shows that this principle no longer applies. Are you really trying to have us believe that this is an isolated example?

---------- Post added at 20:14 ---------- Previous post was at 20:13 ----------

Well, left wingers would say that, wouldn’t they?

---------- Post added at 20:18 ---------- Previous post was at 20:14 ----------

More often than not, the lefties on here provide links to support their strange view of the world.

When anyone questions this with a link of their own, the lefties complain about the source of the article. When they can’t do that because it’s a leftie source, they pick out an odd sentence or so in a desperate effort to rubbish the article. If that fails, they change the nature of the argument!

You’ve got to admit, this is pretty pathetic.

---------- Post added at 20:21 ---------- Previous post was at 20:18 ----------

Spot on.

And look at all those wimps complaining that they have been ‘bullied’ by ministers for failing to do their jobs.

Left wing incompetents, all of them.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

At this point I’d hold Old McDonald’s opinion in higher esteem than Raab.

Civil servants have to be impartial, not neutral.

For your benefit I link the Civil Service Code.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...l-service-code

I also link the pre-election guidance.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...civil-servants

Well supporters of a failed Government would say that, wouldn’t they?

---------- Post added at 20:25 ---------- Previous post was at 20:24 ----------

Are you saying this or quoting someone else? Either way, evidence?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

In terms of a rant I agree the above is pretty pathetic. Paul, no leftie, asked you to provide a source to back up your allegations and guess what? You're equating such requests as akin to slavery!

It's time to get back to basics and provide a robust source or multiple sources that support your allegations or they and you will continue not to be taken seriously.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It's not about political belief or baiting, it's about encouraging good discussion in which controversial statements presented as facts should be linked to evidence.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Without proof, it is an opinion, not a fact.

A fact refers to the something true or real, which is backed by evidence and documentation. An opinion is what a person believes or thinks about something.

For instance, using your logic, can the controversial statement that John Redwood is a cross-dressing secret Labour supporter nevertheless be fact even where there is no proof positive?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Controversial posts without sources face challenges from left, right and centre. It's a lower quality debate as posters can misremember or misunderstand the original statement their post is based upon.

After 13 years of Conservative rule, that the CS is righty is beyond dispute. If David Frost, then why not a whole load more?

The best way for ministers to avoid being found guilty of bullying is not to do it in the first place.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

[B][/B]They certainly do. It’s a sport to them.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

"may try" ? Thanks for the permission, I didnt need it though.

"deny the truth" ? Really ... so what truth exactly am I denying ?

You made a statement. I simply asked if you had any evidence [you didnt]."suit your own political agenda" So as well as the above "truth", what political agenda exactly am I suiting ?

"rubbish anyone who disagrees with you by tying to humiliate them"
The only rubbish is being spouted by you, in your replies, somthing you seem to do a lot.
I didnt mention anything about agreeing or otherwise, I asked if you had evidence to back up a claim you made.
I dont need to "humiliate" you, the clear stupidity and nonsense in your response is doing that just fine all on its own.

Asking for proof is lazy ?
Best hope you never get accused of a crime then.
The courts have everything to do with providing proof/evidence.
Wrong. They dont. [ Evidence: Well me for a start ].

So I can say you are a total clown, and according to you I dont need to provide proof to support that ? Just state "everyone knows it".
And of course, you cant ask for evidence, as that would just be "Lazy" on your part, after all, a fact is a fact apparently, even if its not.

Wrong again. I asked a simple question, and he responded with an attack full of bullshit and nonsense.
I dont "pile in on OB" for the fun of it, I'm responding to his (and your) nonsense. Attacking me for no reason is not a smart move.

---------- Post added at 00:29 ---------- Previous post was at 00:29 ----------

More utter nonsense, you get responses you bring upon yourself.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I gave an example. Post #5753. As usual, when you guys try to discredit me (or anyone else whose views you don’t like) you don’t even bother to read the links that I do provide.

If you are challenging a comment I’ve made, maybe you should provide a link to prove you have a right to be sceptical.

Challenging people to provide a link to justify everything they say on a discussion forum is not necessary and simply designed to shut people down.

All par for the course.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The slur that civil servants are essentially dishonest isn’t one to be made lightly. Hence it’s only made by disgraced former Ministers, right wing tabloids throwing their toys out the pram or internet crackpots.

I can find people who think the earth is flat. The fact some sincerely hold the belief has no bearing on whether it’s actually true.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Clearly I need to repeat my post yet again, as your reading powers seem to be lacking.
So where exactly did this "discredit" you ?
Yes, I read the link, you just assumed otherwise [No Surprise].

The link did/does not provide any evidence of your actual claim.
Perhaps you have forgotton what you even said, lets recap for you ...
Moving on ....
A link to be sceptical ? Are you on drugs ?
You dont need "links" to be sceptical of something.
Anyone can be sceptical, you dont need permission.

"Everything they say" ? I asked you if you can back up ONE statement, are you paranoid ?
That said, if you keep making statements you cannot backup, then you deserve to be shut down.

Ok, paranoid it is then. :dozey:

Oh, and you skipped answering my questions with your latest deflection attempts
and in case you miss it, then above
If your not going answer your accusations then perhaps I need to live up to your last one, and shut you down from this topic.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The Treaty of Rome (1958) as subsequently amended would have told you all that.

But we are out now and can buy 568ml bottles of wine if it’s economically viable to produce them.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

My link did confirm my statement. I said that:

‘Many Conservative ministers are frustrated by the deliberate stalling and pushback on policy issues by civil servants who are opposed to them. The government then has to take the brunt of these failures and it makes them look bad.’

The link was to a Guardian article which demonstrated this. Other articles are available.

If I might say so, your response to my post was well over the top, and no, it’s not me who’s on drugs.

I’ll park it there. It doesn’t matter what I say to people on here who don’t want to listen.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The link repeated what you said - it didn’t confirm it with evidence…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...20five%20years.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Behind paywall…

This might be what it’s based on

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk...fings/sn02784/

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Guessing then.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I’ve expressed a definite view that Redwood is a cross-dressing secret Labour supporter - I haven’t seen you deny it…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Obviously that WAS the evidence that there was disquiet in the Conservative Party about the political bias of civil servants. It’s not for me to prove whether they are right or wrong about that. I was pointing out that such disquiet existed. That is all.

Do you think we could actually discuss the topic?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not what you said…

You stated in post #5738

Your proposition is circular and self-referential - the purported evidence that "the civil service is left-leaning and anti-Brexit anyway." is that the Conservative Party and Cabinet Ministers think it is…

It’s hard to discuss a topic when there’s no basis except "the Conservative Party think so"…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

What a ridiculous comment!

There has been enough written about that bias, and having worked alongside civil servants myself, I think it is spot on. It was not always like that - they used to be genuinely neutral.

I don’t need to provide a link to everything I say, and nor does anyone. Even when I do, you and your mates try to discredit the source or find some other excuse to discredit it.

If you disagree with anyone on here, why not simply debate it instead of trying to suppress an opinion?

The subject is Britain outside the EU. Can we get back to that, please?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Despite your obvious overtly bias protestations Civil Servants are genuinely neutral whatever government is in power.

Prove otherwise...

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

My own personal experience over 57 years is all the proof I need. I’ve seen it for myself.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Steve Hilton that worked for David Cameron, say otherwise.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/24Yhbe4gzaApXFXQYcyXVW

Prove he’s wrong.