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heero_yuy 30-12-2018 11:17
Re: Brexit
 
The industry I do work with (industrial instrumentation) ships world wide. Most of the products are made in the UK but the components are mainly sourced in the far east. With any luck the tariffs can be reduced here to give us even more competitive edge.

It makes little difference regulation wise whether we're in or out. FCC and UL are as significant as CE because the regulatory bodies world wide have been harmonising the specifications for many years.

The real quirk is Germany and their GS specification: Unless you can certify your product to that, German industry won't take it. So much for the "Common Market" but since Germany is the master there they get away with it.

Sephiroth 30-12-2018 11:30
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angua (Post 35977297)
Our area voted remain, so perhaps more aware of the value of EU workers given that locals struggle to survive on the average pay for the area due to high housing costs. So locals cannot afford to do the low paying care work and suchlike.
An interesting point. We can probably take the words I've highlighted as true - it's your area.

Now put this together with the remainder of your point - is there any research available or that can be done to develop the argument?

Carth 30-12-2018 11:31
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angua (Post 35977297)
Our area voted remain, so perhaps more aware of the value of EU workers given that locals struggle to survive on the average pay for the area due to high housing costs. So locals cannot afford to do the low paying care work and suchlike.
Makes you wonder then, how the immigrant workers can survive on the same low wages?

Is it down to the Government paying them benefits to supplement their low income . . something which many of the 'local' workers wouldn't be eligible for?

Sephiroth 30-12-2018 11:41
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35977304)
the industry i do work with (industrial instrumentation) ships world wide. Most of the products are made in the uk but the components are mainly sourced in the far east. With any luck the tariffs can be reduced here to give us even more competitive edge.

It makes little difference regulation wise whether we're in or out. Fcc and ul are as significant as ce because the regulatory bodies world wide have been harmonising the specifications for many years.

The real quirk is germany and their gs specification: Unless you can certify your product to that, german industry won't take it. So much for the "common market" but since germany is the master there they get away with it.
aka hegemony!

Mr K 30-12-2018 12:17
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35977311)
aka hegemony!
Oh Gawd, he's off again.....

If anything we're the country who has are full of our own self importance thinking we should dominate and be the centre of attention. Always have been, we haven't let the Empire go. We're just another European country these days, hence why we need the EU.

Angua 30-12-2018 12:19
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35977310)
Makes you wonder then, how the immigrant workers can survive on the same low wages?

Is it down to the Government paying them benefits to supplement their low income . . something which many of the 'local' workers wouldn't be eligible for?
Nope. It is down to them being prepared to live like sardines, or the companies employing them providing accommodation.

A lot of rented housing excludes those on any benefits, often as part of the mortgage/insurance provision. The pay is often high enough to fall outside benefit provision anyway. A single person cannot claim as much as people assume. Full time minimum wage over 25 (37 hour week) is just over £15,000 PA. Enough to rent or share a room, never enough to buy.

Mick 30-12-2018 12:33
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angua (Post 35977297)
Our area voted remain, so perhaps more aware of the value of EU workers given that locals struggle to survive on the average pay for the area due to high housing costs. So locals cannot afford to do the low paying care work and suchlike.
So if the locals cannot afford to do the care jobs because of housing costs, how can the migrants?

And I told you in my last post which you have conveniently ignored because it does not suit your agenda - no migrants entered the health care sector I work in and I live in an area where we have had high influx of Eastern European Migrants, i.e Polish and Romanian. The people who have applied for Care jobs are UK Nationals - so this fallacy of British people not doing or going for healthcare work is complete bollocks.

---------- Post added at 12:33 ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35977313)
Oh Gawd, he's off again.....

If anything we're the country who has are full of our own self importance thinking we should dominate and be the centre of attention. Always have been, we haven't let the Empire go. We're just another European country these days, hence why we need the EU.
No we do not need that cancerous con job Anti-Democratic project, it needs us more, hence why they are scrambling at all costs to stop Brexit.

Sephiroth 30-12-2018 12:52
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35977313)
Oh Gawd, he's off again.....

If anything we're the country who has are full of our own self importance thinking we should dominate and be the centre of attention. Always have been, we haven't let the Empire go. We're just another European country these days, hence why we need the EU.
.... and you too, Mr. K.

Outrageous statements to make - ‘we haven’t let the Empire go’. Problem is that there are leftie idiots who take that nonsense in with huge gulps.

I hope you don’t mean the likes of the Falklands, Bermuda and Gibraltar, which are self-governing dependencies and in no way part of an Empire - Which we dropped in the period from 1948 through 1965.

As to the German hegemony, it is well documented.

Hugh 30-12-2018 13:00
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35977295)
But isn’t cheap migrant labour coming in, because locals don’t want to do the jobs, one of the reasons people voted for Brexit?
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35977298)
No
OK, thanks.

Your well-reasoned answer, backed up by facts and figures, has convinced me of your position on this matter.

daveeb 30-12-2018 13:05
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35977325)
OK, thanks.

Your well-reasoned answer, backed up by facts and figures, has convinced me of your position on this matter.
The No could have done with a smilie to give it a bit of authority :erm:

Mick 30-12-2018 13:09
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35977325)
OK, thanks.

Your well-reasoned answer, backed up by facts and figures, has convinced me of your position on this matter.
I am convinced that you really need to stop leaving one sided responses like this - especially when many other people on the Remain side, are guilty of the same thing and you should damn well know this! :rolleyes:

ianch99 30-12-2018 18:50
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35977324)
.... and you too, Mr. K.

Outrageous statements to make - ‘we haven’t let the Empire go’. Problem is that there are leftie idiots who take that nonsense in with huge gulps.

I hope you don’t mean the likes of the Falklands, Bermuda and Gibraltar, which are self-governing dependencies and in no way part of an Empire - Which we dropped in the period from 1948 through 1965.

As to the German hegemony, it is well documented.
Mr K is correct (as always :) ), these locations you cite are indeed relics of Empire. Giving them pretty names is just denial. They will, at some point, revert back to their natural owners. Goa is good example of what eventually happens to relics of Empire.

The irony here is that you are denying that "we haven’t let the Empire go" and then, in the same breath, claiming that these locations are not related to Empire. Nice .. :)

Gavin78 30-12-2018 18:57
Re: Brexit
 
I work for the NHS no migrants working on my ward. Although there has been a few come over got off a plane and turned upto A&E with renal failure. 9/10 they usually allow them to have more than one treatment

jfman 30-12-2018 19:04
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin78 (Post 35977348)
I work for the NHS no migrants working on my ward. Although there has been a few come over got off a plane and turned upto A&E with renal failure. 9/10 they usually allow them to have more than one treatment
Your limited sample size tells us nothing of value.

ianch99 30-12-2018 19:16
Re: Brexit
 
Something smells fishy ...

No-deal Brexit ferry contract sparks concerns

Quote:
Concerns have been raised over the readiness of a British firm contracted by the government to run extra ferries in the event of a no-deal Brexit.

Seaborne Freight was awarded a £13.8m contract this week to run a freight service between Ramsgate and Ostend.

The firm has never run a ferry service and a local councillor said it would be impossible to launch before Brexit.
Maybe they are just panicking and handing out contracts based on internet searches?

jfman 30-12-2018 19:19
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35977354)
Something smells fishy ...

No-deal Brexit ferry contract sparks concerns



Maybe they are just panicking and handing out contracts based on internet searches?
In the post Brexit world we are going to rely upon a lot of people to try out new things, might as well start as we mean to go on!

Sephiroth 30-12-2018 19:36
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35977346)
Mr K is correct (as always :) ), these locations you cite are indeed relics of Empire. Giving them pretty names is just denial. They will, at some point, revert back to their natural owners. Goa is good example of what eventually happens to relics of Empire.

The irony here is that you are denying that "we haven’t let the Empire go" and then, in the same breath, claiming that these locations are not related to Empire. Nice .. :)
You are showing yourself up. A pity.

First, who are the 'natural owners' of Gibraltar and the Falklands? They've changed hands several times and treaties support the current status. Indeed, both of these have held referendums to see if a change of status was favoured by the inhabitants.

What has Goa got to do with the implicit suggestion (by Mr K) that Leave voters haven't 'let the empire go'? It's the UK we're talking about.

And, by far the worst in your response, you have mischievously twisted my words. I said: "I hope you don’t mean the likes of the Falklands, Bermuda and Gibraltar, which are self-governing dependencies and in no way part of an Empire - Which we dropped in the period from 1948 through 1965." You said: 'You are denying that "we haven’t let the Empire go" and then, in the same breath, claiming that these locations are not related to Empire'. The two statements are not the same thing and you should do better than that.

ianch99 30-12-2018 20:32
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35977358)
You are showing yourself up. A pity.

First, who are the 'natural owners' of Gibraltar and the Falklands? They've changed hands several times and treaties support the current status. Indeed, both of these have held referendums to see if a change of status was favoured by the inhabitants.

What has Goa got to do with the implicit suggestion (by Mr K) that Leave voters haven't 'let the empire go'? It's the UK we're talking about.

And, by far the worst in your response, you have mischievously twisted my words. I said: "I hope you don’t mean the likes of the Falklands, Bermuda and Gibraltar, which are self-governing dependencies and in no way part of an Empire - Which we dropped in the period from 1948 through 1965." You said: 'You are denying that "we haven’t let the Empire go" and then, in the same breath, claiming that these locations are not related to Empire'. The two statements are not the same thing and you should do better than that.
You think we are the "natural owners" of land on the other side of the globe? Come on, really? Natural order will play out sooner or later. Gibraltar will return to Spain sooner than later. Brexit has seen to that.

You are claiming that Mr K's comment is wrong yet you subconsciously validate it. Delicious irony ;)

---------- Post added at 20:32 ---------- Previous post was at 20:30 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35977356)
In the post Brexit world we are going to rely upon a lot of people to try out new things, might as well start as we mean to go on!
That's fine but it is mine and more importantly my children's future these cretins are playing with.

richard s 30-12-2018 21:07
Re: Brexit
 
Disagree Gibraltar and or the Falklands will remain with the UK or go independent with British protection.

Mick 30-12-2018 21:12
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35977350)
Your limited sample size tells us nothing of value.
Well I have been in the healthcare sector for a long time - no migrants have applied for any jobs and I have dealt with 1000's of applications so he is right and you are wrong.

British people are doing healthcare work and I will not have anyone say otherwise, including you and I do not give a shit what your data sampling requirements are!!!

---------- Post added at 21:12 ---------- Previous post was at 21:10 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35977359)
That's fine but it is mine and more importantly my children's future these cretins are playing with.
The cretins were the ones who signed us up to this bullshit club back in 1975!!

jfman 30-12-2018 21:15
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35977363)
Well I have been in the healthcare sector for a long time - no migrants have applied for any jobs and I have dealt with 1000's of applications so he is right and you are wrong.

British people are doing healthcare work and I will not have anyone say otherwise, including you and I do not give a shit what your data sampling requirements are!!!

---------- Post added at 21:12 ---------- Previous post was at 21:10 ----------



The cretins were the ones who signed us up to this bullshit club back in 1975!!
Zero migrants have applied out of thousands of applications? That's quite incredible, given we have too many.

Sephiroth 30-12-2018 21:17
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35977359)
You think we are the "natural owners" of land on the other side of the globe? Come on, really? Natural order will play out sooner or later. Gibraltar will return to Spain sooner than later. Brexit has seen to that.

You are claiming that Mr K's comment is wrong yet you subconsciously validate it. Delicious irony ;)

---------- Post added at 20:32 ---------- Previous post was at 20:30 ----------



That's fine but it is mine and more importantly my children's future these cretins are playing with.
Are you real? Up to now, you were a passionate Remainer. Now you are being contrary for no good reason.

The inhabitants of the Falkland and Gibraltar are normal human beings. In the case of Gibraltar, largely of indigenous stock. They are all democratically content with their lives and are not relics of empire. Any such implication is outrageous.

And again you have completely twisted my words and obvious meaning. We (UK) are not the ‘natural owners’ of these territories, nor have I suggested or implied that.

Your twisting of the truth renders your credibility as close to worthless. I sincerely regret that.




Mick 30-12-2018 21:24
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35977365)
Zero migrants have applied out of thousands of applications? That's quite incredible, given we have too many.
Yes - too many unskilled and arriving here to ride on the benefit gravy train - worked it out yet ? :dozey: :rolleyes:

Mr K 30-12-2018 21:31
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35977367)
Your twisting of the truth renders your credibility as close to worthless. I sincerely regret that.
[Admin Edit: Personal Insult Removed.]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35977370)
Yes - too many unskilled and arriving here to ride on the benefit gravy train - worked it out yet ? :dozey: :rolleyes:
Think you'll it's mostly UK residents on that gravy train, hence our need for migrant workers.

Mick 31-12-2018 10:29
Re: Brexit
 
After a 12 hour+ Cool down - Thread re-opened.

Follow the first post rules.

In simple form:
  • No arguing and insulting each other. The next time a team member who has to act, action will be taken on those accounts.
  • It is time to move on from the issue of "Migrants". It is another area of discussion where there is tension, too much for the topic to bear and people clearly do not agree with each other and never will and it just becomes a pointless slanging match.

    These instructions are non-negotiable.

Damien 31-12-2018 10:45
Re: Brexit
 
We know the statistics of people who work in the NHS that are not British: https://researchbriefings.parliament...mmary/CBP-7783

Quote:
63,000 NHS staff in England are EU nationals - 5.6% of all staff. Overall, 12.7% of NHS staff say that their nationality is not British. Data on the nationality of NHS staff for doctors, nurses and other categories, and changes since the Brexit vote.
But the more senior/educated the position the higher the proportion of them being foreign born:

Quote:
Nationals of other EU countries make up 9.7% of doctors in England's hospital and community health services. They also make up 6.8% of all nurses and 5.6% of scientific, therapeutic and technical staff. The percentage of doctors and nurses with EU nationality grew between 2009 and 2016. Since 2016, the percentage of EU nurses has fallen.

denphone 31-12-2018 10:51
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35977354)
Something smells fishy ...

No-deal Brexit ferry contract sparks concerns



Maybe they are just panicking and handing out contracts based on internet searches?
Cluelessness is the word that comes to hand but then we have had two years plus of that thus so far..

---------- Post added at 10:51 ---------- Previous post was at 10:46 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35977397)
We know the statistics of people who work in the NHS that are not British: https://researchbriefings.parliament...mmary/CBP-7783



But the more senior/educated the position the higher the proportion of them being foreign born:
l can certainly concur with that sentiment being a regular patient for a long time at a top specialist hospital in London where many of the top jobs were filled by foreign born people and overall the hospital had over 40 nationalities employed within the hospital even in the lesser skilled jobs.

Mick 31-12-2018 10:55
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35977397)
We know the statistics of people who work in the NHS that are not British: https://researchbriefings.parliament...mmary/CBP-7783



But the more senior/educated the position the higher the proportion of them being foreign born:
Anything in the private healthcare sector about EU Nationals working in employment and I thought the overall thought process of some Remainers that EU Nationals have left the profession, I thought there was evidence where there was an actual increase in job take up ?

ianch99 31-12-2018 11:49
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35977367)
Are you real? Up to now, you were a passionate Remainer. Now you are being contrary for no good reason.

The inhabitants of the Falkland and Gibraltar are normal human beings. In the case of Gibraltar, largely of indigenous stock. They are all democratically content with their lives and are not relics of empire. Any such implication is outrageous.

And again you have completely twisted my words and obvious meaning. We (UK) are not the ‘natural owners’ of these territories, nor have I suggested or implied that.

Your twisting of the truth renders your credibility as close to worthless. I sincerely regret that.
As Mick has requested, we all need to calm down a bit. Please no more "my credibility is worthless" remarks? I may well be but it does not help the debate ;)

Yes I am real but the isn't the point here. What I trying (and failing) to say is that some of the people who voted Leave did so in the belief, mistaken in my opinion, that the UK's role & place in the world is larger than it patently is. This, I believe, comes from the days when the UK did indeed have an Empire and we had a "natural" right to position & power due to our imperial past.

I was pointing out the irony in seeing no problem with retaining these "relics" of Empire.

Anyway, let's drop this as we can agree to differ?

Happy New Year to you!

Damien 31-12-2018 12:10
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35977400)
Anything in the private healthcare sector about EU Nationals working in employment and I thought the overall thought process of some Remainers that EU Nationals have left the profession, I thought there was evidence where there was an actual increase in job take up ?
I wasn't tracking the argument here that closely tbh. If that was the discussion that my bad. I just a debate about EU nationals and looked for the actual numbers.

Sephiroth 31-12-2018 13:21
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35977403)
As Mick has requested, we all need to calm down a bit. Please no more "my credibility is worthless" remarks? I may well be but it does not help the debate ;)

Yes I am real but the isn't the point here. What I trying (and failing) to say is that some of the people who voted Leave did so in the belief, mistaken in my opinion, that the UK's role & place in the world is larger than it patently is. This, I believe, comes from the days when the UK did indeed have an Empire and we had a "natural" right to position & power due to our imperial past.

I was pointing out the irony in seeing no problem with retaining these "relics" of Empire.

Anyway, let's drop this as we can agree to differ?

Happy New Year to you!
That is a huge reach and cannot be verified.

Of course, the very best for you in 2019.

Sephiroth 02-01-2019 07:39
Re: Brexit
 
Here's another of my well balanced arguments based on something I read in yesterday's Torygraph.

There would seem to be two views of democracy for the purposes of Brexit (and prolly nothing else):

Leavers view democracy in two ways: (1) Sovereignty for the UK as distinct from being subject to laws made elsewhere; (2) Execution of the June 2016 Referendum result. Economic questions are not really matters for democracy save that the Customs Union prevents the UK from forging its own trade path (I confess that if the EU is negotiating deals with the likes of Canada and Japan then that is good for us).

Remainers[ also view democracy in two ways: (1) The nice wrap of European protection for workers' rights, human rights and a whole raft of benign directives and cooperation institutions; (2) The right to have as many referendums on any topic, especially Brexit, on the basis that no referendum can be anti-democratic. Economic questions are wrapped up in the nice comfortable European Single Market and Customs Union.

The above is the classic irreconcilable stand-off.

Now I'll inject my own views.

I've argued before, and the Remainers have not addressed this point, that had the Referendum result been the other way round, there would have been no basis for the Leavers demanding a "people's vote" to overturn the first result. This makes the Remainers' call for another referendum a one sided matter - as in - 'they would, wouldn't they'. I find that to be undemocratic. Carry out the result of the first referendum rather than keep on voting till you get the result required by the Remainers.

The reason why the Remainers won't stop pressing is that the economic question is embraced by their view of democracy, whereas the Leavers believe that WTO terms can be utilised to our advantage especially if we divest ourselves of a lot EU anti-competitive constraints. The Torygraph article also points out that the additional revenues obtained by Government from import duties could be offset for UK residents by a corresponding reduction in VAT, so keeping prices steady or even reduced in cases where we can import food without tariff from countries with lower production costs than the EU.

1andrew1 02-01-2019 08:32
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35977554)
Here's another of my well balanced arguments based on something I read in yesterday's Torygraph.

There would seem to be two views of democracy for the purposes of Brexit (and prolly nothing else):

Leavers view democracy in two ways: (1) Sovereignty for the UK as distinct from being subject to laws made elsewhere; (2) Execution of the June 2016 Referendum result. Economic questions are not really matters for democracy save that the Customs Union prevents the UK from forging its own trade path (I confess that if the EU is negotiating deals with the likes of Canada and Japan then that is good for us).

Remainers[ also view democracy in two ways: (1) The nice wrap of European protection for workers' rights, human rights and a whole raft of benign directives and cooperation institutions; (2) The right to have as many referendums on any topic, especially Brexit, on the basis that no referendum can be anti-democratic. Economic questions are wrapped up in the nice comfortable European Single Market and Customs Union.

The above is the classic irreconcilable stand-off.

Now I'll inject my own views.

I've argued before, and the Remainers have not addressed this point, that had the Referendum result been the other way round, there would have been no basis for the Leavers demanding a "people's vote" to overturn the first result. This makes the Remainers' call for another referendum a one sided matter - as in - 'they would, wouldn't they'. I find that to be undemocratic. Carry out the result of the first referendum rather than keep on voting till you get the result required by the Remainers.

The reason why the Remainers won't stop pressing is that the economic question is embraced by their view of democracy, whereas the Leavers believe that WTO terms can be utilised to our advantage especially if we divest ourselves of a lot EU anti-competitive constraints. The Torygraph article also points out that the additional revenues obtained by Government from import duties could be offset for UK residents by a corresponding reduction in VAT, so keeping prices steady or even reduced in cases where we can import food without tariff from countries with lower production costs than the EU.
Lots of assumptions here, I'm not sure where to begin and this has to be a short reply. A few points:
- It's too simplistic to split everyone into two camps. We need to focus on the issues, not someone's vote from 2016. For example, not everyone who voted leave is against a second vote nor everyone who voted remain in favour.
- Nigel Farage has said he would campaign for another vote if it was 52-48 against Leave. It's the 4% difference that drives this behaviour, not a non-belief in democracy.
- In a world where many standards are set globally and trade deals and membership of NATO, the UN etc impact the laws of sovereign states, sovereignty is not binary.
- Many of those who voted leave do not favour legislation to get rid of labour rights etc. That may sit well in parts of the home counties but not north of Milton Keynes.

Hugh 02-01-2019 09:28
Re: Brexit
 
There are very rarely simple (binary yes/no) solutions to complex issues.

Damien 02-01-2019 10:02
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35977554)
There would seem to be two views of democracy for the purposes of Brexit (and prolly nothing else):

Leavers view democracy in two ways: (1) Sovereignty for the UK as distinct from being subject to laws made elsewhere; (2) Execution of the June 2016 Referendum result. Economic questions are not really matters for democracy save that the Customs Union prevents the UK from forging its own trade path (I confess that if the EU is negotiating deals with the likes of Canada and Japan then that is good for us).

Remainers[ also view democracy in two ways: (1) The nice wrap of European protection for workers' rights, human rights and a whole raft of benign directives and cooperation institutions; (2) The right to have as many referendums on any topic, especially Brexit, on the basis that no referendum can be anti-democratic. Economic questions are wrapped up in the nice comfortable European Single Market and Customs Union.
Just to say another thing Remainers think, or some think, is that abdication of some policy to an another extranational institution or agreement is a unavoidable part of the modern world. The EU is the biggest example of that but it will apply to other trade deals we make in the future. So the idea we need to 'take back control' is pushing against the tide and ultimately harms us for little actually gain since, in the end, you're restricted by the rest of the world anyway.

papa smurf 02-01-2019 10:20
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35977558)
There are very rarely simple (binary yes/no) solutions to complex issues.
Indeed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z0QUygjr2w

Hugh 02-01-2019 11:06
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35977558)
There are very rarely simple (binary yes/no) solutions to complex issues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35977566)
QED

mrmistoffelees 02-01-2019 14:46
Re: Brexit
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46735381

The man is a complete idiot, and obviously has very little knowledge/interest in the politics/economy of Singapore

Hugh 02-01-2019 16:32
Re: Brexit
 
Singapore - 5.6 million people, 721 square kilometres, One Party State

U.K. - 66 million people, 210,000 square kilometres, Parliamentary Democracy

Seems fairly similar...

If your country is half the size of London and you don’t have to worry about what your citizens think about where you build, it’s fairly easy to have an integrated infrastructure.

Angua 02-01-2019 16:35
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35977555)
Lots of assumptions here, I'm not sure where to begin and this has to be a short reply. A few points:
- It's too simplistic to split everyone into two camps. We need to focus on the issues, not someone's vote from 2016. For example, not everyone who voted leave is against a second vote nor everyone who voted remain in favour.
- Nigel Farage has said he would campaign for another vote if it was 52-48 against Leave. It's the 4% difference that drives this behaviour, not a non-belief in democracy.
- In a world where many standards are set globally and trade deals and membership of NATO, the UN etc impact the laws of sovereign states, sovereignty is not binary.
- Many of those who voted leave do not favour legislation to get rid of labour rights etc. That may sit well in parts of the home counties but not north of Milton Keynes.
Oddly, the Home Counties Thames Valley corridor seemed more in favour of remain.

The divide seems to be split along many different lines. Older vs Younger, poor vs rich, University educated vs straight into work. Science vs Farming and so on. Take a random selection from each group and even they will have areas of disagreement.

Pinning people who voted leave down to a single reason for doing so is even more odd. Assuming they made that choice on the binary option on the ballot even more so.

I voted leave because politic parties have stopped listening to the electorate, but would love the chance to vote remain given the option, because they are still not listening.

Hugh 03-01-2019 22:27
Re: Brexit
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46743164

Quote:
Mr Gove, a leading figure in the 2016 Leave campaign, rejected suggestions that warnings about the economic impact of a no-deal exit were being over-stated and another example of "Project Fear".

"No-one can be blithe or blase about the real impact on food producers in this country of leaving without a deal," he said.

It was a "grim and inescapable fact", he said, that beef and lamb exports could face export tariffs of at least 40% if the UK defaulted to World Trade Organization rules, while standard tariffs of 11% could be levied on a host of agricultural products.

"The combination of significant tariffs, where none exist now, friction and checks at the border, where none exist now, and the requirements to re-route or pay more for transport when current arrangements are frictionless, will all add to costs for producers," he said.

jfman 03-01-2019 23:04
Re: Brexit
 
Nah. The EU will blink at the last minute. They desperately need us. ;)

Pierre 03-01-2019 23:31
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35977777)
Gove is a May deal supporter, which makes him now a quasi-remainer.

I.e we now have project fear to support the May deal.........fffff’n laughable.........

Mr K 04-01-2019 07:54
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35977779)
Gove is a May deal supporter, which makes him now a quasi-remainer.

I.e we now have project fear to support the May deal.........fffff’n laughable.........
It is quite amusing how the arch Brexiteers Fox, Gove, are now championing a deal that is basically remain. Career and power first methinks. When it fails they can always say they were loyal to the last, but now will answer the countries call to get out of the resulting mess ..

Angua 04-01-2019 14:37
Re: Brexit
 
Looks like Brits in Italy will be okay.

Damien 04-01-2019 16:02
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35977779)
Gove is a May deal supporter, which makes him now a quasi-remainer.

I.e we now have project fear to support the May deal.........fffff’n laughable.........
Gove was one of the senior members of Vote Leave. Maybe he was just convinced of the economic damage no deal would entail?

Sephiroth 04-01-2019 16:57
Re: Brexit
 
I despair of the politicians (except Sir John Redwood). The deal on the table makes us a vassal of the EU - as they intended. We pretty much all agree on that; better to remain than go with this deal.

But best to leave with no deal as this frees us from German hegemony, French blackmail, Irish perfidy to name but three.

Yesterday's Torygraph had a really interesting article which explained how the Euro is a project constructed for the benefit of Germany (in particular) and the northern countries by corollary, leaving the southern countries up Schmitt creek nix paddle. The Euro is a crumbling edifice which will expire when German assets run low. Simples.

ianch99 04-01-2019 17:08
Re: Brexit
 
It is quite frightening how much the Conservative Party members are out of touch with their leader and the country:

Brexit: most Tory members would choose no deal over May's plan

Quote:
More than half of Conservative party members want Theresa May’s Brexit deal to be rejected in favour of leaving the EU with no deal, according to a survey.
The same is mirrored in the Labour party where arch-Leaver Corbyn is desperately clinging onto his babbling Brexit policy in denial of his party membership:

Corbyn defies calls from within Labour to back second Brexit referendum

Quote:
The study of Labour members found that 72% believed their leader should back a second referendum.
Very strange times indeed.

jfman 04-01-2019 17:25
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35977827)
I despair of the politicians (except Sir John Redwood). The deal on the table makes us a vassal of the EU - as they intended. We pretty much all agree on that; better to remain than go with this deal.

But best to leave with no deal as this frees us from German hegemony, French blackmail, Irish perfidy to name but three.

Yesterday's Torygraph had a really interesting article which explained how the Euro is a project constructed for the benefit of Germany (in particular) and the northern countries by corollary, leaving the southern countries up Schmitt creek nix paddle. The Euro is a crumbling edifice which will expire when German assets run low. Simples.
You had me in a state of shock before I moved on to the second paragraph. :)

Sephiroth 04-01-2019 18:14
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35977837)
You had me in a state of shock before I moved on to the second paragraph. :)
I'd be a fool not to be honest about the proposed deal.

As regards SJR,I expected that! I know the man and rate him highly,

RichardCoulter 04-01-2019 18:58
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angua (Post 35977814)
I suspect that this is because Italy have realised that the quality and quantity of their UK immigrants are beneficial to their economy overall.

Good news for ex pats in Italy, at least they can now stop worrying.

Sephiroth 04-01-2019 19:13
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter (Post 35977850)
I suspect that this is because Italy have realised that the quality and quantity of their UK immigrants are beneficial to their economy overall.

Good news for ex pats in Italy, at least they can now stop worrying.
True in one sense; but Italy is on the rocks and with it, the Euro is in great danger.

1andrew1 04-01-2019 19:18
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35977843)
I'd be a fool not to be honest about the proposed deal.

As regards SJR,I expected that! I know the man and rate him highly,
Despite Redwood's politically awkward advice to his investors to take their money out of the country because of Brexit, I think May hopes she bought his loyalty in the New Year's Honours. Hence her reason to postpone the vote - nothing has changed in the deal since December nor did she expect it to - just the salutations of some of those voting on it. ;)

Sephiroth 04-01-2019 19:25
Re: Brexit
 
It's going to be an exciting week or so.

jfman 04-01-2019 19:39
Re: Brexit
 
First up being the Finance Bill on Tuesday and proposed amendments (if selected).

Mr K 04-01-2019 19:45
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35977852)
Despite Redwood's politically awkward advice to his investors to take their money out of the country because of Brexit, I think May hopes she bought his loyalty in the New Year's Honours. Hence her reason to postpone the vote - nothing has changed in the deal since December nor did she expect it to - just the salutations of some of those voting on it. ;)
I think she did expect to get something more out of the EU, but she's failed again. They've remained consistent and we've been all over the place. The delaying tactic in an attempt to scare MPs into voting for this shambles has also failed. I did have a very little respect for her, but that's gone.. As with most politicians, she's put political survival ahead of the country. Would she have the cheek to try and postpone the vote again ??

1andrew1 04-01-2019 20:50
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35977858)
I think she did expect to get something more out of the EU, but she's failed again. They've remained consistent and we've been all over the place. The delaying tactic in an attempt to scare MPs into voting for this shambles has also failed. I did have a very little respect for her, but that's gone.. As with most politicians, she's put political survival ahead of the country. Would she have the cheek to try and postpone the vote again ??
She should be playing for England ladies', she's very good at kicking the tin can a long way down the road. :D
The EU was never going to offer much of an off-the-peg deal in the withdrawal agreement as it's a temporary measure due to the UK's slowness in negotiating; the EU is saving its energies for the fatiguing free trade agreement negotiations and not something that will last a couple of years. I'm pretty sure that the UK Civil Service will have communicated this to Theresa May but politically she is keen to ensure that she is seen to be trying to improve the deal than actually believing that she could get it improved.

Mick 05-01-2019 11:03
Re: Brexit
 
Off-topic posts removed. Back on topic. Spelling lessons is not the topic!!!

Mick 05-01-2019 14:05
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
"I just don't think we would survive going through that exercise again."

James Graham, writer of the Channel 4 drama, Brexit: The Uncivil War, says the EU referendum was "overly simplistic, overly angry and overly divisive".
Something I can agree with completely....

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/sta...38775244771328

jfman 05-01-2019 14:08
Re: Brexit
 
Oh sure we will. Blitz spirit and all that.

We've survived worse.

Mr K 05-01-2019 19:16
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35977907)
Oh sure we will. Blitz spirit and all that.

We've survived worse.
People still miss the war and rationing, traitors and quislings.. We love a crisis, see how much people get excited by the prospect of a bit of snow ...

I'm sure some of that is behind the desire to destroy the country. We're just a bit bored and love confrontation with anyone and everyone !

Hugh 05-01-2019 19:35
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35977907)
Oh sure we will. Blitz spirit and all that.

We've survived worse.
Considering that people were calling the police when KFC ran out of chicken, our fortitude may not be at that level...

1andrew1 05-01-2019 21:38
Re: Brexit
 
Pro-Brexit supporter (13-year-old girl) arrested for assaulting a policeman. I appreciate the country is divided on the issue but there is no excuse for this assault nor for not clearing the protest in advance with the authorities.
Quote:
According to reports, about 100 demonstrators took part in the protest, which began at 11am on Saturday with a blockade of Westminster Bridge. They moved on to Parliament Square, where they set off smoke bombs and sat in the roads.
The disruption caused tailbacks and diversions, according to Transport for London, which said buses serving the area had been delayed and subsequently diverted.
The Metropolitan police’s Westminster division reported the arrests on its Twitter feed. It said: “Four arrests have been made following protests on Westminster Bridge, SW1 at approximately 11am today. Three men arrested on suspicion of public order offences.
“A 13-year-old girl was also arrested on suspicion of assault on police. Inquiries continue.”
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...brexit-protest

Mick 05-01-2019 22:25
Re: Brexit
 
Well well well....A debriefing document prepared by the Greater London Authority put the number of attendees at October's People’s Vote rally at 250,000 - significantly below the campaign group's claim that they were joined by more than 700,000 people.

Mr K 05-01-2019 22:58
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35977957)
Well well well....A debriefing document prepared by the Greater London Authority put the number of attendees at October's People’s Vote rally at 250,000 - significantly below the campaign group's claim that they were joined by more than 700,000 people.
That would still be 248,800 more than attended Farage's pro Brexit event on the same day...

Pierre 05-01-2019 23:15
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35977831)
It is quite frightening how much the Conservative Party members are out of touch with their leader and the country:

Brexit: most Tory members would choose no deal over May's plan
.
Are they? I would choose no deal over May’s plan.

---------- Post added at 23:15 ---------- Previous post was at 23:02 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35977937)
People still miss the war and rationing,
I would suggest the vast majority of that generation are dead. Those that were born before the war ( and therefore remember it) would have to be at least 80, probably 85- 90. Rationing ended in ‘54, those born in ‘54 will be 65 this year, and to have a memory of it they would probably need to be at least 5-10 years old. So be 70-75.

So I think we can rule out the war and rationing as a driver.

Mick 05-01-2019 23:21
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35977959)
That would still be 248,800 more than attended Farage's pro Brexit event on the same day...
Well 17.4 Million beat the the Fake News 700K total any way... so your point is moot, as is usually the case with you.

People’s Vote have blatantly lied, doing the very thing they accused the Leave campaigns of doing.

Mr K 06-01-2019 09:39
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35977963)
Well 17.4 Million beat the the Fake News 700K total any way... so your point is moot, as is usually the case with you.

People’s Vote have blatantly lied, doing the very thing they accused the Leave campaigns of doing.
Has to be said you were the one bringing up numbers at protests... Moving the goal posts again ? ;)

papa smurf 06-01-2019 10:54
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35977957)
Well well well....A debriefing document prepared by the Greater London Authority put the number of attendees at October's People’s Vote rally at 250,000 - significantly below the campaign group's claim that they were joined by more than 700,000 people.
People's Vote SHOCK:
This peoples vote is based on lies and made up figures :(

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...ctober-protest

The “historic” march which was in favour of a second Brexit referendum claimed that more than 700,000 people marched in central London last year. However, a debriefing document prepared by the Greater London Authority put the number of attendees at only 250,000



Conservative MP and Eurosceptic Anne-Marie Trevelyan said: “Leaving the EU was an option on the ballot paper that attracted more votes than any referendum or politician in our history.

"The People’s Vote would do well to remember this and should stop attempting to dupe people about how many people support it."

Mr K 06-01-2019 11:17
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35977982)
People's Vote SHOCK:
This peoples vote is based on lies and made up figures :(

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...ctober-protest

The “historic” march which was in favour of a second Brexit referendum claimed that more than 700,000 people marched in central London last year. However, a debriefing document prepared by the Greater London Authority put the number of attendees at only 250,000



Conservative MP and Eurosceptic Anne-Marie Trevelyan said: “Leaving the EU was an option on the ballot paper that attracted more votes than any referendum or politician in our history.

"The People’s Vote would do well to remember this and should stop attempting to dupe people about how many people support it."
People's opinions have changed. That's why 'leave' are petrified of another vote.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...t-peoples-vote
Quote:
For most of this year, polls have shown remain ahead of leave, typically by four to six points. But in a referendum between staying in the EU and leaving on the terms that the government has negotiated, staying enjoys an 18-point lead: 59-41%.

djfunkdup 06-01-2019 11:22
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35977983)
People's opinions have changed. That's why 'leave' are petrified of another vote.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...t-peoples-vote


ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzz zzzzzzzz :o::o:

Mick 06-01-2019 11:32
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35977983)
People's opinions have changed. That's why 'leave' are petrified of another vote.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...t-peoples-vote
Absolute bollocks especially if it’s written in the Fake News Guardian.

People have not changed their minds in any significant number, poll after poll after poll there has been no drastic change.

Leavers are not petrified of a second vote, it’s the bloody Anti-Democratic principle of having the same vote over and over again because the Democracy abusers did not get their own way.

Angua 06-01-2019 11:36
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35977986)
Absolute bollocks especially if it’s written in the Fake News Guardian.

People have not changed their minds in any significant number, poll after poll after poll there has been no drastic change.

Leavers are not petrified of a second vote, it’s the bloody Anti-Democratic principle of having the same vote over and over again because the Democracy abusers did not get their own way.
Only needs a 2% change for a different result.

Mr K 06-01-2019 11:37
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35977986)
Absolute bollocks especially if it’s written in the Fake News Guardian.

People have not changed their minds in any significant number, poll after poll after poll there has been no drastic change.

Leavers are not petrified of a second vote, it’s the bloody Anti-Democratic principle of having the same vote over and over again because the Democracy abusers did not get their own way.
It was written by Peter Kelner of YouGov. Fake news or unwanted news?

Damien 06-01-2019 11:38
Re: Brexit
 
The polling company is YouGov, not The Guardian. Besides these polls are typically first published in The Times.

Mick 06-01-2019 11:40
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35977989)
It was written by Peter Kelner of YouGov. Fake news or unwanted news?
I couldn’t give a shit if it was written by the Queen of Sheba.

You’re wrong. There is no significant change to people’s minds.

The people voted to leave the EU and that must happen. Stop the tantrums and toy throwing, your side lost!!!

1andrew1 06-01-2019 11:40
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angua (Post 35977987)
Only needs a 2% change for a different result.
Agreed, there has been no drastic change but there didn't need to be. The main change has been the don't-knows making up their minds and selecting remain. not remainers or leavers changing their minds.

Mick 06-01-2019 11:50
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35977990)
The polling company is YouGov, not The Guardian. Besides these polls are typically first published in The Times.
Only one poll matters. That’s the official one done on June 23rd 2016 which craps all over these other bullshit very very tiny sample polls that bear no actual relevance.

---------- Post added at 11:50 ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angua (Post 35977987)
Only needs a 2% change for a different result.
And you seriously think that will be the end of the matter?

Why should the second referendum take precedent over the first one?

A second referendum is a disaster for this country’s democracy because the selfish democracy abusers want their own way, we had a vote, we must leave the EU.

1andrew1 06-01-2019 11:51
Re: Brexit
 
I can't imagine Failing Grayling's award of a contract to a shipping company with no ships is doing much for people's confidence in Brexit.

Somewhat inconveniently, he can't be accused of sabotaging the Brexit process as he's a leaver!

Damien 06-01-2019 11:53
Re: Brexit
 
I think what's more interesting is a large part of the shift, in the polls anyway, is because of more young people entering the electorate without an increase in Leave amongst the older voters to compensate. It's a recipe for quite a few problems if that increases and the country ironically becomes a lot more pro-EU after we've left.

denphone 06-01-2019 11:53
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35977986)
Absolute bollocks especially if it’s written in the Fake News Guardian.

People have not changed their minds in any significant number, poll after poll after poll there has been no drastic change.

Leavers are not petrified of a second vote, it’s the bloody Anti-Democratic principle of having the same vote over and over again because the Democracy abusers did not get their own way.
You can apply the label of fake news to any media site online if one does not like its overarching agenda be it The Guardian , Daily Mail or most of the other media news sites.

djfunkdup 06-01-2019 11:54
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35977998)
we had a vote, we must leave the EU.
We are Man it's cool lol we are on our way out it's not long now... Just leave these crazy remainers to argue with the gnomes :D:D:D

Mick 06-01-2019 11:59
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35977993)
Agreed, there has been no drastic change but there didn't need to be. The main change has been the don't-knows making up their minds and selecting remain. not remainers or leavers changing their minds.
You don’t know this at all, you have not asked all the millions of “don’t knows”.

It matters not, because there will not, nor should there be a second referendum.

---------- Post added at 11:59 ---------- Previous post was at 11:56 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35978005)
You can apply the label of fake news to any media site online if one does not like its overarching agenda be it The Guardian , Daily Mail or most of the other media news sites.
The Guardian is a pathetic lefty rag, now begging it’s readers for donations.

It’s not worth a bucket of warm piss!

1andrew1 06-01-2019 12:27
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35978007)

The Guardian is a pathetic lefty rag, now begging it’s readers for donations.

It’s not worth a bucket of warm piss!
As Damien has pointed out, the YouGov polls are commissioned by and published in The Times newspaper, not The Guardian. Other media outlets like The Guardian may refer to the poll results as it saves them the cost of commissioning their own polls.

Mick 06-01-2019 12:49
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35978013)
As Damien has pointed out, the YouGov polls are commissioned by and published in The Times newspaper, not The Guardian. Other media outlets like The Guardian may refer to the poll results as it saves them the cost of commissioning their own polls.
What part of, "I don't care" who they are by do you not understand ?

Only one poll matters to me, that's the official one, with a very large sample size that Trumps all the pathetic wishy washy, 1000 people asked rubbish, the poll that only counts is the one on June 23rd 2016.

Carth 06-01-2019 14:56
Re: Brexit
 
All these new polls then . . . are they by the same people that got it 'oh so drastically wrong' the first time?

Beats me why sane people even give them a second glance

jfman 06-01-2019 15:11
Re: Brexit
 
https://ig.ft.com/sites/brexit-polling/

Were the polls that bad? When you consider 'don't knows' and the margin of error most of these polls are a statistical dead heat. Which accurately reflects 52-48 (either way).

Pierre 06-01-2019 15:12
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35977983)
People's opinions have changed. That's why 'leave' are petrified of another vote.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...t-peoples-vote
I’d be happy for another vote, the question is what’s key?

1andrew1 06-01-2019 15:15
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35978028)
All these new polls then . . . are they by the same people that got it 'oh so drastically wrong' the first time?

Beats me why sane people even give them a second glance
YouGov and many other polling companies got the exit polls correct on the night but polling companies are not allowed to divulge exit polls to the public when polling is underway. So they only disclosed their out-of-date polls to the likes of you and me which is why you believe they got it wrong.

This is a great article that explains how hedge funds profited from this situation. A relevant extract.
Quote:
Behind the scenes, a small group of people had a secret—and billions of dollars were at stake. Hedge funds aiming to win big from trades that day had hired YouGov and at least five other polling companies, including Farage's favorite pollster. Their services, on the day and in the days leading up to the vote, varied, but pollsters sold hedge funds critical, advance information, including data that would have been illegal for them to give the public. Some hedge funds gained confidence, through private exit polls, that most Britons had voted to leave the EU, or that the vote was far closer than the public believed—knowledge pollsters provided while voting was still underway and hours ahead of official tallies. These hedge funds were in the perfect position to earn fortunes by short selling the British pound. Others learned the likely outcome of public, potentially market-moving polls before they were published, offering surefire trades.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...beat-the-crash

Paul 06-01-2019 15:57
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35977983)
People's opinions have changed. That's why 'leave' are petrified of another vote.
People's opinions on who should be in government change every week, should we have a general election every week ?

Mr K 06-01-2019 16:25
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul M (Post 35978044)
People's opinions on who should be in government change every week, should we have a general election every week ?
No but we have one every 4/5 years. 3 years now since the Brexit vote, and reprecussions are much more and long lasting than a General Election.

---------- Post added at 16:25 ---------- Previous post was at 16:22 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35978031)
I’d be happy for another vote, the question is what’s key?
Think you asked that before., For me it would be whether or not to accept the deal on offer, exit with no deal or remain. Not an exact repetition of the original vote.

Carth 06-01-2019 16:40
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35978049)

. . . exit with no deal or remain. Not an exact repetition of the original vote.
Actually to me, and probably quite a few others, that's exactly what the vote was ;)

heero_yuy 06-01-2019 16:44
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Quote from Carth:


Actually to me, and probably quite a few others, that's exactly what the vote was ;)
Indeed. Remain lost three times: Referendum, election and commons A50 vote.

djfunkdup 06-01-2019 16:51
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35978052)
Indeed. Remain lost three times: Referendum, election and commons A50 vote.
:clap:

Mick 06-01-2019 17:01
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35978049)
No but we have one every 4/5 years. 3 years now since the Brexit vote, and reprecussions are much more and long lasting than a General Election.

---------- Post added at 16:25 ---------- Previous post was at 16:22 ----------



Think you asked that before., For me it would be whether or not to accept the deal on offer, exit with no deal or remain. Not an exact repetition of the original vote.
Remain should not be on any ballot - the country has already decided on it's course and that is to leave the EU.

Mr K 06-01-2019 17:03
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35978056)
Remain should not be on any ballot - the country has already decided on it's course and that is to leave the EU.
Thing is, if we reject the deal on offer, and aren't mad enough to want no deal, we've nowhere else to go.

Mick 06-01-2019 17:47
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35978057)
Thing is, if we reject the deal on offer, and aren't mad enough to want no deal, we've nowhere else to go.
You're forgetting the little chestnut that Brexit is enshrined in to law and that the leave date is 29th March, just 88 days time and we will leave on WTO terms if May's deal is rejected.

90% of Trade Growth will be outside of the EU, we do not need to be in the corrupted EU to do trade, let alone pay a con job membership fee.

All these fear mongering rubbish about grants and funding from the EU being lost is just utter nonsense, it's our money they give back via the grants/funding.

jfman 06-01-2019 17:52
Re: Brexit
 
Legislation required to leave hasn’t yet been enacted in full. There were 800 pieces of secondary legislation required that could still be a stumbling block.

Leaving as the default option is a red herring.

Sephiroth 06-01-2019 18:36
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35978065)
Legislation required to leave hasn’t yet been enacted in full. There were 800 pieces of secondary legislation required that could still be a stumbling block.

Leaving as the default option is a red herring.
I don't think you're right §20 of the Withdrawal Act 2018 sets the Exit Day as 23:00 on 29-Mar-19. It also allows a "Minister of the Crown" to amend that date with some convoluted wording that amounts to an extension of the A50 period.

The Act makes no provision for not leaving the EU; this would require separate primary legislation which cannot be introduced except by Government. (A private member's bill will have serious difficulty finding time).

I read today that some treacherous MPs are planning to have the Finance Bill voted down, thus potentially closing government spending down, unless the government agrees to guarantee that No Deal will not be allowed. Now there's anti-democracy hard at work, thwarting an instruction from the public in the Referendum.

Of course some Remainers will define that treachery as a pure act of democracy and that is what the argument in this thread is all about.

Pierre 06-01-2019 18:46
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35978049)

Think you asked that before., For me it would be whether or not to accept the deal on offer, exit with no deal or remain. Not an exact repetition of the original vote.
You can’t have three questions, it has to be binary.

---------- Post added at 18:46 ---------- Previous post was at 18:46 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35978051)
Actually to me, and probably quite a few others, that's exactly what the vote was ;)
Indeed!


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